posted 04-15-2003 12:31 AM ET (US)            

Seems like a good post, but very hard to read.

Are you familiar with the term, "paragraph"?

Hope you get your deposit back. Good faith is a hard term to define and harder to find.

posted 04-15-2003 02:13 AM ET (US)            

Although a letter to this guy from an attorney in any state may produce the fastest results, it's unlikely you really need an attorney to pursue a claim against him. (And it probably isn't worth it anyway for $1000.) You may be able to file against him in small claims court on your own after paying some cheap court fees.

posted 04-15-2003 10:20 AM ET (US)            

In my first letter, I would state that, based on the multiple previous correspondance we had, I thought he had misled me and misrepresented his product in bad faith. I would also ask that he return the deposit I placed on the boat he had described within 2 weeks.

posted 04-15-2003 06:16 PM ET (US)            

I'm no Virginian, but I'm pretty sure that deposits in these kind of transactions are covered by law, and are refundable and enforcible.

Since he cashed it, you can force him to sell you his crappy boat if you have to -- but he'll probably send your money back (cashier check, please) when he sees that you are serious.

I'd also contact whatever place you found the advertisment and let them know -- this kind of scam is illegal (otherwise there'd be a million guys doing it with cars, houses and boats everyday).

posted 04-15-2003 10:07 PM ET (US)            

I can sympathize, i have purchased several boats site unseen, usually to be disappointed of at least some aspect of the sale. Most people seems to be selective of how they want to describe what they are selling. I had a dealer describe a 18 Outrage to me as 'mint', only to drive to City Island to find a severly beat 18 with newish motors. It always amazes me what some people think is perfect, usually there house, car, and boat are all in similar condition.

I also agree that you get what you pay for, and that a dealer may be the way to go. I have never purchased a boat from them, but I have spoken to Nauset marine on several occasions. I trust what they have told me in terms of condition, maybe because they are an old school Whaler dealer, and know what they are looking at.

That said, check out www.bestboatbuys.com, I seem to remeber seeing a few used 18's and 19's listed there, and they are all withing 4 hours of Albany. That way if a boat turn out to be not so perfect, at least you got to have a nice drive to the Cape or RI.

Out of curiousity, if you don't mind me asking, I believe I have done work in one of your dealerships through FIP Construction out of CT. does that sound right?

posted 04-16-2003 11:49 AM ET (US)            

More importantly what is the attitude change once it is realized he is an auto dealer. Come on now lets not stereotype. There are plenty of good car dealers out there.

Newcountry there is no excuse for what happened and I hope you get your money back.

posted 04-16-2003 12:51 PM ET (US)            

In this case the buyer and seller obviously did not communitcate clearly about several things. Whether the seller misrepresented the boat to the seller is a very tough sell to an third party - judge or otherwise.

There are a lot of examples of agreements on the web to avoid these types of heart aches. Bottom line - if a seller misrepresents the condition of the item... the deposit is also likely never to be returned. In this case, becuase it sounds more like a fraud case, the buyer should actually recover $ for expenses and perhaps effort to see the boat? Any lawyers in the house who can send a letter for our Country boy.

Best to deal with people not wanting any $ unless the deal is fair ot all.

posted 04-16-2003 01:06 PM ET (US)            

I have sent deposits for sight unseen boats in two previous situations. After thorough discussions and pictures, I went to my bank and picked up a bank draft bearing the name of the seller as well as my name. It required signature endorsements by both parties before it could be cashed.

One boat was better than described and I bought it. On the other one, I demanded 20 bucks to partially cover fuel costs for wasting my time on the trip. I didn't get the 20 bucks, but I did get the bank draft back, returned it to my bank and got my money.

posted 04-16-2003 02:18 PM ET (US)            

I think I just purchased the boat referenced in these posts. I bought it in Virginia from a man who told me that his original offer was from a guy who drove down from New York last weekend.

The seller is an individual owner not a dealer or broker. He purchased the boat from a broker, Lawrence Marine a year ago. He made not attempt to describe the boat as mint or Showroom or a 10. When I talked to him prior to seeing the boat he said that on a 1 to 10 rating he would give the boat an 8.

I inspected the boat and aside from needing a light buffing and showing some age on the Whaler Decal I found nothing of concern. The hull and bright work is in my opinion an 8.5 to 9. No signs of use or wear, no stress cracks or chips in the Gel Coat no additional and unused screw holes. The only thing that I found disappointing about the boat was that it had bottom paint. Everything I found on the boat is original right down to the hatch cover bungie cords. Also included is a new high quality custom canvas (Bimini and full length cover)

Now, that said I would like to remind everyone that this is a Whaler Forum not a Yamaha or EZ Loader Forum. I bought a 14-year-old Whaler that I found to be in outstanding condition. I could get it in mint condition with less than $1,000 in additional expenses. I am good with that. The motor a 175 HP Yamaha is not in the best cosmetic condition but it has been recently overhauled with all new hoses and wiring and has one year remaining on an all inclusive warranty. The trailer is a 1995 EZ Loader in fine condition. He painted it because he thought it looked better than Galvanized.

I paid $14,000 for the BOAT. The 12-month warranty for the motor is a bonus and gives me a year to save for a new one. The trailer is worth about $1200 and is not worth bitching about.

posted 04-16-2003 06:00 PM ET (US)            

he let me take the boat 30 miles down the road(alone)to my lake for a test drive. i had just lost my job and when i told him that i really liked it, but would have to wait until i found employment to purchase, this gentelman not only came down in price but put me on a payment plan.

i ended up buying the 1970 sport with a 35hp Mariner and trailer for $1000. to top it off i was the one that suggested we write out a contract for his safety. it should be noted that this guy wasn't born yesterday either. he appeared to be quite successful with a good head for business.

i just wanted to point out that not all sellers are out to screw us buyers. in fact some of them are happy to help out a 26 year old fullfill his childhood dream of owning a Boston Whaler.

posted 04-16-2003 06:27 PM ET (US)            

Anyone who takes a NON-REFUNDABLE deposit without making that clear is a crook.

I am always amazed that when it comes to buying and selling cars and boats, people seem to lose whatever moral or ethical guideposts they have: "buyer beware" "he who has the gold rules" Yak, yak, yak.

Imagine what our world would be like if it were truly pure "buyer beware..."

Gee, I have an idea...

"For Sale: various models of 'Bristol Whalers' from 11 to 25 feet, all with Yamaha power less than one year, still under warranty. All boats are 'tens.' Price is NADA value plus $500. Please send a $500 cash deposit to hold your boat until you come look at it... "

Are we automatically too hard on 'sellers?' Have you ever heard of a buyer running a scam?

Gotta go back to work.

posted 04-16-2003 07:28 PM ET (US)            

Even in the best of worlds and between the best of people... its still buyer beware.

A lot of buyers run scams... I just recently sold my 25 and saw/heard a lot of promises. Several mornings I was at the dock waiting for a no-show. More than once I found people looking on the dock (through a gate) looking at the boat in detail) without any agreement to trespass. I had to sit through a lot of people low balling me after a test run... and although I love going for a run, several of these guys were obviously just being classic unfriendly dickheads. And more than once, I was offered MORE money to sell it out from under a potential buyer who was from out of state/town and with whom I had agreed that the boat was his (without deposit) even though it would take him a couple of weeks to get away for a look.

Have a yard sale and enjoy the odd scam!

posted 04-17-2003 12:32 AM ET (US)            

I think it is great that you passed on more money because your word is good. But you would have been just as trustworthy to say to a potential buyer: "look, the boat is yours if you get here to look at it by Friday (or whenever) but if someone offers me $500 more, I'll call you and you can match it or step aside..."

None of these are scams, except maybe 'test rides' by 'lookie loos.' And if that bugs you, point to the sign on the gas pump and tell them "this engine eats 10 gallons at that price per hour -- you pay that, I run the boat. Deal?"

Then you get a nice free ride in your boat, if you want.

You really WANT to live in a buyer beware world? You want to buy water, food, houses, cars without warranty or 'enforcable' standards for quality or safety? Good luck, not me.

Fair is fair. Either you believe in that and belong to that world, or you are welcome to live like many of our neighbors on this planet, where it truly is 'buyer beware' and 'every man for himself.'

I'm pretty liberal about most things, but I believe the "conservative" adherence to fairness and common sense are what makes this country truly great.

Hey Capt. were both in Socal? We should get Mario and arrange a Whaler get-together. Is his boat still broken?

posted 04-17-2003 05:37 AM ET (US)            

I specifically asked the seller, in writing, "What would it take to make the boat like new in every respect?". He told me that he couldn't think of ANYTHING other than a good "buff and wax".

I bought the boat after exchanging multiple e-mails and studying many e-photos. I got hosed.

When the boat arrived (shipped 2600 miles) I discovered all the damage the seller had hidden. I have since repaired or replaced everything that was broken or in poor shape, at considerable expense, and I now have a beautiful boat. Almost.

This experience help me re-learn some important lessons. Again. It's not a good idea to "lead with your chin". The amount of trust I showed, and the extent of the exposure I allowed, reflects bad judgment on my part. In retrospect, as Andy suggests in his post, I allowed "whaleritis" to get the better of my common sense (and life experience). I now have another embarrassing lesson to share with my kids.

On the other hand, I didn't take a gamble I wasn't able to afford. I survived the "worse case scenario" with a bruised ego and $8K or $10K in unexpected expenses. I'm not rich, and that's not cheap, but I'm sure it's not the most expensive mistake I've ever made. I would not have approached the structuring of my retirement plan or the purchase of a house with the same sloppiness and trust.

On the positive side, I have a nice boat, and everything in it will be like new - and it's STILL cost only a fraction of the price of a new one. I also have a very good legal basis to recover my loss from the misrepresenting dealer. His lies were very well documented in writing (and with photos during the course of repair), and Oregon law allows for the recovery of attorney's fees in this sort of circumstance.

In spite of the above experience, I'm still inclined to trust people. I think most folks try to do the right thing most of the time - and I say that in the face of daily reminders of the awful things people do to each other. The "bad" folks are still a small minority - they're just a very visible minority. Given the satisfaction that comes from having your trust rewarded, I plan to continue to look for the best in people.

posted 04-17-2003 10:51 AM ET (US)            

In this scenerio the seller, being he sold his boat, should return Newcountry's money say less $100-200 for his troubles. I don't think either party would object.

posted 04-17-2003 12:22 PM ET (US)            

If I get the time, I'll jump on Westlaw and see whether Illinois Rules of Court allows real lawyers to practice in small claims court...I sure hope not.

posted 04-17-2003 12:58 PM ET (US)            

In any case, I doubt that either Newcountry or the seller would employ an attorney over a $1000 dispute...bye bye $1000 real fast, win/lose/or draw.

Tony

posted 04-17-2003 02:12 PM ET (US)            

Till then I'm just going to play with my sailboat and zodic...