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Author Topic:   Boating Accident in Detroit River

jimh posted 05-19-2003 11:08 PM ET (US)
Sunday afternoon a 14-foot aluminum fishing boat with five people aboard capsized while close to shore at Windmill Point in Grosse Pointe at the eastern end of the Detroit River. Two adults and a boy were rescued by heroic effort from two boaters at the marina. I believe they jumped into the 55-degree water to help the three to shore.
Unfortunately, another adult and a boy were apparently swept away by the strong current. The expected survival time in 55-degree water is about two hours.
The Detroit Police searched for the missing fishermen in their 17-foot Boston Whaler Montauk.
The aluminum fishing boat was rented about an eighth of a mile downstream of the accident site. The renting agency informed the renter that the boat was only suitable for three occupants and supplied only three PFD's. The renter acknowleged and accepted the rental boat.
Reports from the scene indicated that the boat was taking on water and capsized when the five occupants all shifted to one side.
My guess is that the fisherman had just left the protection of the canal leading to the rental agency and entered the open water of the river. They soon experienced trouble with their boat in the higher winds and wave of the open water.
The irony here is that boat involved in the casualty was a 14-footer, while the boat involved in the search and rescue was just a 17-footer. The difference in the seaworthiness of these two boats far exceeds the difference in their size.
ducktwin posted 05-20-2003 12:22 AM ET (US)
Jim,
Truly sad. Being from MI, I know that area.
I believe ANY boat can become a coffin.

Unfortunately, the renters of the boat left their common sense behind.
The boat rental agency will probably become the scapegoat.
rwill1 posted 05-20-2003 08:09 PM ET (US)
I was out on the Lower Detroit River in my Nauset while this happened. I heard all the activity on the VHF. There was a strong East wind, and I bet there was a good chop around Windmill Point. A very sad incident, but preventable by adults using good judgement.
wayne baker posted 05-20-2003 09:38 PM ET (US)
The rental company should not be considerd the scape goat instead it should be considered greatly responsible for the loss of life. I say this if the boat left the dock over loaded and with out pfd's for all on board. If the boat was trailed off the property and launched,which I do not know,I would feel diffrently. Granted the operator of the boat carries the majority of the blame, but is a shame a man would put life at risk (kid's live's) to make a buck off a boat rental. The boater should not hav been allowed to make a poor decision, when the renter was probably much more aware of the local laws and the potental for a catastrophic event to take place.
Shame on the renter.
Sympathy to the families for the loss of life.
djahncke posted 05-20-2003 10:13 PM ET (US)
I disagree with you Wayne. If you read Jim's posting it clearly states that the renter was informed that they were renting a 3 person boat. It is not the renatal company's responsibility to continously watch over the renter to keep him from doing something stupid.
hooter posted 05-21-2003 12:23 AM ET (US)
Sad, sad and all that, yeah. Friggin Darwin award candidates, if you ask me. Over load a li'l 14' bateaux with five people, includin' li'l kids, then head into a big river. Catfish and crabs gots t'eat, too, you know. The adults among these idiot folks just been raised all these years t'feed 'em. Lucky theys not ALL crab cakes by now.
wayne baker posted 05-21-2003 06:57 PM ET (US)
dj,I did not think my opinon would be a popular one. If the boat was loaded and launched any where except from the renters dock I would agree the renter can not be controll what he can not see. I wonder if a preson rented a plane, told by the renter his intent was to over load the plane and fly away from the airfield, would he be allowed to rent said plane? If this plane then crashed would the FAA hold the renter responsible in any way? I do not know it is just a thought.
wayne
GeneNJ posted 05-21-2003 08:39 PM ET (US)
Wayne
You seem to be confusing the rental agency with the person who rents the boat(renter). It makes it hard to follow your reasoning.
wayne baker posted 05-21-2003 09:11 PM ET (US)
Gene after reading your post I read mine again. I must admit it was easyer to follow while I was thinking it a few hours ago. I am not confused I just did not use proper termanolgy. The thought was would a rental company be liable if it were in pleasure craft other than a boat.
jimh posted 05-22-2003 12:03 AM ET (US)
Sorry, but I don't know the details of the launching of the boat, but my impression is the rental company has a dock and the boat is already in the water.
I don't think it is fair to compare boat rental to aircraft rental, inasumuch as the pilot of a plane has to be federally licensed to fly, etc.
Anyone can rent a boat; there is no special operator's license required in Michigan, as far as I know.
I don't know the details of the rental agreement but reports are that the rental agent told the renter the boat had a capacity of three adults, and therefore he supplied only three PFDs.
Ironically, on Sunday morning when I went out to pick up the newspaper, with very cool temps and strong winds evident, I was thinking to myself as I walked down the front walk of my home, "This is a miserable day to go boating."
That was in the context of using a 20-foot Boston Whaler on those waters. To go out in a 14-foot aluminum boat was, as it turned out, a mortal error.
North Beach posted 05-22-2003 12:25 PM ET (US)
I am with you Wayne, if the agency sat back and watched them overload the boat and did nothing--I see the liability as joint and several with the renter of the boat himself.
where2 posted 05-22-2003 12:49 PM ET (US)
The truly unfortunate part is that there is a lawyer somewhere dreaming about $$$ awarded from some insurance company for a tragedy caused by one of the 3 adults in the boat, and nobody else. Kids will go along with what an adult wants them to do, especially if it sounds fun to the kid.
gschrimp posted 05-24-2003 05:18 AM ET (US)
It doesn't take a "renter" to be an idiot boater. Back in the 80's I was out on Lake Michigan in a 16' aluminum boat fishing in swells of about 5-6'. (No deragatory comments please as I had well over 3000 hours experience on the lake at the time and was quite comfortable and in control of my vessel).
As I was trolling along about a mile offshore I noticed a small fiberglass boat of about 14' with a main engine and small kicker. It was inhabited by 3 large adults and one child and was definitely overloaded.
I felt they were in danger so kept a close eye on the vessel as it had little freeboard. Suddenly a fish must have struck a downrigger pole and everyone rushed to the transom of the boat just as a swell was approaching.
To make a long story short the wave came right over the transom and the boat disappeared except for a small part of the covered bow that was above water. Immediately I cut my two lines and headed over there as fast as possible.
On the way I called the Coast Guard on the VHF and gave them the loran fix so they could get underway.
Arriving slowly at the vessel, so as to attempt to not run over anyone, I found 3 people in the water and inched up to them under power. One person grabbed the bow of my boat but couldn't get over the side so I turned the bow into the swells, put it in neutral and helped him aboard. Once aboard I again approached the bow of the other vessel and threw them some life preservers as one guy said he couldn't swim and was hanging on for dear life.
I then found out that the son of the 3rd person was trapped under the bow, but had some air.
Eventually, the person I had earlier brought aboard and I, managed to get the 250# non-swimmer into my boat a few minutes before the Coast Guard arrived.
Upon arrival they sent several persons overboard and rescued both the father and son.
As the seas were too rough to transfer my passengers I was asked to run them back to the Coast Guard station as they slowly towed the remains of the other vessel in.
Upon arrival the radio operator asked me to stay until the rescue boat returned and explain what I had witnessed.
Obviously my first thought was to say that all the adults were morons for being foolish enough to go out in those seas in an overloaded boat, but I held my tongue and let them figure it out for themselves while I told the story to the crew of the rescue boat which had finally returned with the father, son, and remains of their boat.
The biggest surprise though came as I was leaving when the fat guy, the one who couldn't swim, who trashed my tackle boxes and fishing equipment while floundering around on the bottom of my boat took exception to the fact that as we were trying to yank him aboard while holding the boat into the seas, we stripped the watch he was wearing off his wrist and it deep sixed.
Never mind that it cost me a bunch of tangled monafilament, a couple of life preservers, some lures, a trashed boat and an evening of peaceful solitude fishing due to their sheer stupidity.
I just turned around and walked out without saying a word as the Coast Guard people looked on with astonishment.
hooter posted 05-24-2003 08:02 AM ET (US)
gshrimp, you proved the pernt made above, that as Ah type and you read this, some humans out there are growin' fat for the express, predestined purpose of eventually turnin' themselves into crab cakes through the sheer pow'r of stupidity. Ah wonder if you actually upset the cosmic balance and doomed a mess o' fine crabs to starvation when you pulled that fat sucker aboard your boat. Nobody could o' helped but tried t'do the same as you did succeed in doin', but it does make you wonder.
Great story. Thanks for sharin it, and Welcome t' the Forum!
wspellenbe posted 05-24-2003 02:56 PM ET (US)
When I called the Fuel Tank Manufacture of my Whaler he told me a story of a guy who had a fuel leak on his boat. He got his shop vac to suck up the fuel. I guess you can figure out what happened next. I guess it is the dumbing down of America.
JoeH posted 05-25-2003 02:35 PM ET (US)
I just heard on WJR that Fieger is taking the case for the families. For those of you not from Michigan, he is one of the 99 percent that gives the other 1 percent of lawyers a bad name. Joe
jimh posted 05-25-2003 03:46 PM ET (US)
I was not aware that Fieger had been admitted to practice before the Admiralty Bar. I wonder under which jurisdiction the case will be heard?
Marine casulties are usually prosecuted under Admiralty laws.
Comments from our resident lawyers are invited.
Will this case be a civil tort or a marine casualty?
JoeH posted 05-25-2003 04:04 PM ET (US)
Jim, I don't know the legalities of it all, I just overheard it from some folks radio while down to the park with my daughters. I think they found one of the bodies as well. Joe
boxers posted 05-25-2003 08:29 PM ET (US)
Hooter-mah sides r bustin from yer commentary-so tru
jimh posted 05-30-2003 11:04 PM ET (US)
In conversation with a colleague of mine who was at the scene of the sinking and rescue, he mentioned that one of the eye witnesses to the whole event told him that the 14-foot aluminum boat had a large "adirondak-style camp chair" placed in the middle of it.
I guess these guys wanted to be comfortable right up until the time their boat sank.
Cicada posted 05-31-2003 11:28 PM ET (US)
Why not set up a barbeque and keg? Could have used the keg for ballast.
Who would be sued under the circumstances? Doesn't fault have to be determined in this kind of a case?
With Mr. Fieger's reputation, if in fact he's taking this on, I'm sure he's only interested in the victims rights in this situation. Somebody needs to protect helpless victims from multi million dollar boat rental corporations located on the Detroit River. Probably the only party that has any significant insurance in the whole situation.
Paul


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Author	Topic: Boating Accident in Detroit River
jimh	posted 05-19-2003 11:08 PM ET (US) Sunday afternoon a 14-foot aluminum fishing boat with five people aboard capsized while close to shore at Windmill Point in Grosse Pointe at the eastern end of the Detroit River. Two adults and a boy were rescued by heroic effort from two boaters at the marina. I believe they jumped into the 55-degree water to help the three to shore. Unfortunately, another adult and a boy were apparently swept away by the strong current. The expected survival time in 55-degree water is about two hours. The Detroit Police searched for the missing fishermen in their 17-foot Boston Whaler Montauk. The aluminum fishing boat was rented about an eighth of a mile downstream of the accident site. The renting agency informed the renter that the boat was only suitable for three occupants and supplied only three PFD's. The renter acknowleged and accepted the rental boat. Reports from the scene indicated that the boat was taking on water and capsized when the five occupants all shifted to one side. My guess is that the fisherman had just left the protection of the canal leading to the rental agency and entered the open water of the river. They soon experienced trouble with their boat in the higher winds and wave of the open water. The irony here is that boat involved in the casualty was a 14-footer, while the boat involved in the search and rescue was just a 17-footer. The difference in the seaworthiness of these two boats far exceeds the difference in their size.
ducktwin	posted 05-20-2003 12:22 AM ET (US) Jim, Truly sad. Being from MI, I know that area. I believe ANY boat can become a coffin. Unfortunately, the renters of the boat left their common sense behind. The boat rental agency will probably become the scapegoat.
rwill1	posted 05-20-2003 08:09 PM ET (US) I was out on the Lower Detroit River in my Nauset while this happened. I heard all the activity on the VHF. There was a strong East wind, and I bet there was a good chop around Windmill Point. A very sad incident, but preventable by adults using good judgement.
wayne baker	posted 05-20-2003 09:38 PM ET (US) The rental company should not be considerd the scape goat instead it should be considered greatly responsible for the loss of life. I say this if the boat left the dock over loaded and with out pfd's for all on board. If the boat was trailed off the property and launched,which I do not know,I would feel diffrently. Granted the operator of the boat carries the majority of the blame, but is a shame a man would put life at risk (kid's live's) to make a buck off a boat rental. The boater should not hav been allowed to make a poor decision, when the renter was probably much more aware of the local laws and the potental for a catastrophic event to take place. Shame on the renter. Sympathy to the families for the loss of life.
djahncke	posted 05-20-2003 10:13 PM ET (US) I disagree with you Wayne. If you read Jim's posting it clearly states that the renter was informed that they were renting a 3 person boat. It is not the renatal company's responsibility to continously watch over the renter to keep him from doing something stupid.
hooter	posted 05-21-2003 12:23 AM ET (US) Sad, sad and all that, yeah. Friggin Darwin award candidates, if you ask me. Over load a li'l 14' bateaux with five people, includin' li'l kids, then head into a big river. Catfish and crabs gots t'eat, too, you know. The adults among these idiot folks just been raised all these years t'feed 'em. Lucky theys not ALL crab cakes by now.
wayne baker	posted 05-21-2003 06:57 PM ET (US) dj,I did not think my opinon would be a popular one. If the boat was loaded and launched any where except from the renters dock I would agree the renter can not be controll what he can not see. I wonder if a preson rented a plane, told by the renter his intent was to over load the plane and fly away from the airfield, would he be allowed to rent said plane? If this plane then crashed would the FAA hold the renter responsible in any way? I do not know it is just a thought. wayne
GeneNJ	posted 05-21-2003 08:39 PM ET (US) Wayne You seem to be confusing the rental agency with the person who rents the boat(renter). It makes it hard to follow your reasoning.
wayne baker	posted 05-21-2003 09:11 PM ET (US) Gene after reading your post I read mine again. I must admit it was easyer to follow while I was thinking it a few hours ago. I am not confused I just did not use proper termanolgy. The thought was would a rental company be liable if it were in pleasure craft other than a boat.
jimh	posted 05-22-2003 12:03 AM ET (US) Sorry, but I don't know the details of the launching of the boat, but my impression is the rental company has a dock and the boat is already in the water. I don't think it is fair to compare boat rental to aircraft rental, inasumuch as the pilot of a plane has to be federally licensed to fly, etc. Anyone can rent a boat; there is no special operator's license required in Michigan, as far as I know. I don't know the details of the rental agreement but reports are that the rental agent told the renter the boat had a capacity of three adults, and therefore he supplied only three PFDs. Ironically, on Sunday morning when I went out to pick up the newspaper, with very cool temps and strong winds evident, I was thinking to myself as I walked down the front walk of my home, "This is a miserable day to go boating." That was in the context of using a 20-foot Boston Whaler on those waters. To go out in a 14-foot aluminum boat was, as it turned out, a mortal error.
North Beach	posted 05-22-2003 12:25 PM ET (US) I am with you Wayne, if the agency sat back and watched them overload the boat and did nothing--I see the liability as joint and several with the renter of the boat himself.
where2	posted 05-22-2003 12:49 PM ET (US) The truly unfortunate part is that there is a lawyer somewhere dreaming about $$$ awarded from some insurance company for a tragedy caused by one of the 3 adults in the boat, and nobody else. Kids will go along with what an adult wants them to do, especially if it sounds fun to the kid.
gschrimp	posted 05-24-2003 05:18 AM ET (US) It doesn't take a "renter" to be an idiot boater. Back in the 80's I was out on Lake Michigan in a 16' aluminum boat fishing in swells of about 5-6'. (No deragatory comments please as I had well over 3000 hours experience on the lake at the time and was quite comfortable and in control of my vessel). As I was trolling along about a mile offshore I noticed a small fiberglass boat of about 14' with a main engine and small kicker. It was inhabited by 3 large adults and one child and was definitely overloaded. I felt they were in danger so kept a close eye on the vessel as it had little freeboard. Suddenly a fish must have struck a downrigger pole and everyone rushed to the transom of the boat just as a swell was approaching. To make a long story short the wave came right over the transom and the boat disappeared except for a small part of the covered bow that was above water. Immediately I cut my two lines and headed over there as fast as possible. On the way I called the Coast Guard on the VHF and gave them the loran fix so they could get underway. Arriving slowly at the vessel, so as to attempt to not run over anyone, I found 3 people in the water and inched up to them under power. One person grabbed the bow of my boat but couldn't get over the side so I turned the bow into the swells, put it in neutral and helped him aboard. Once aboard I again approached the bow of the other vessel and threw them some life preservers as one guy said he couldn't swim and was hanging on for dear life. I then found out that the son of the 3rd person was trapped under the bow, but had some air. Eventually, the person I had earlier brought aboard and I, managed to get the 250# non-swimmer into my boat a few minutes before the Coast Guard arrived. Upon arrival they sent several persons overboard and rescued both the father and son. As the seas were too rough to transfer my passengers I was asked to run them back to the Coast Guard station as they slowly towed the remains of the other vessel in. Upon arrival the radio operator asked me to stay until the rescue boat returned and explain what I had witnessed. Obviously my first thought was to say that all the adults were morons for being foolish enough to go out in those seas in an overloaded boat, but I held my tongue and let them figure it out for themselves while I told the story to the crew of the rescue boat which had finally returned with the father, son, and remains of their boat. The biggest surprise though came as I was leaving when the fat guy, the one who couldn't swim, who trashed my tackle boxes and fishing equipment while floundering around on the bottom of my boat took exception to the fact that as we were trying to yank him aboard while holding the boat into the seas, we stripped the watch he was wearing off his wrist and it deep sixed. Never mind that it cost me a bunch of tangled monafilament, a couple of life preservers, some lures, a trashed boat and an evening of peaceful solitude fishing due to their sheer stupidity. I just turned around and walked out without saying a word as the Coast Guard people looked on with astonishment.
hooter	posted 05-24-2003 08:02 AM ET (US) gshrimp, you proved the pernt made above, that as Ah type and you read this, some humans out there are growin' fat for the express, predestined purpose of eventually turnin' themselves into crab cakes through the sheer pow'r of stupidity. Ah wonder if you actually upset the cosmic balance and doomed a mess o' fine crabs to starvation when you pulled that fat sucker aboard your boat. Nobody could o' helped but tried t'do the same as you did succeed in doin', but it does make you wonder. Great story. Thanks for sharin it, and Welcome t' the Forum!
wspellenbe	posted 05-24-2003 02:56 PM ET (US) When I called the Fuel Tank Manufacture of my Whaler he told me a story of a guy who had a fuel leak on his boat. He got his shop vac to suck up the fuel. I guess you can figure out what happened next. I guess it is the dumbing down of America.
JoeH	posted 05-25-2003 02:35 PM ET (US) I just heard on WJR that Fieger is taking the case for the families. For those of you not from Michigan, he is one of the 99 percent that gives the other 1 percent of lawyers a bad name. Joe
jimh	posted 05-25-2003 03:46 PM ET (US) I was not aware that Fieger had been admitted to practice before the Admiralty Bar. I wonder under which jurisdiction the case will be heard? Marine casulties are usually prosecuted under Admiralty laws. Comments from our resident lawyers are invited. Will this case be a civil tort or a marine casualty?
JoeH	posted 05-25-2003 04:04 PM ET (US) Jim, I don't know the legalities of it all, I just overheard it from some folks radio while down to the park with my daughters. I think they found one of the bodies as well. Joe
boxers	posted 05-25-2003 08:29 PM ET (US) Hooter-mah sides r bustin from yer commentary-so tru
jimh	posted 05-30-2003 11:04 PM ET (US) In conversation with a colleague of mine who was at the scene of the sinking and rescue, he mentioned that one of the eye witnesses to the whole event told him that the 14-foot aluminum boat had a large "adirondak-style camp chair" placed in the middle of it. I guess these guys wanted to be comfortable right up until the time their boat sank.
Cicada	posted 05-31-2003 11:28 PM ET (US) Why not set up a barbeque and keg? Could have used the keg for ballast. Who would be sued under the circumstances? Doesn't fault have to be determined in this kind of a case? With Mr. Fieger's reputation, if in fact he's taking this on, I'm sure he's only interested in the victims rights in this situation. Somebody needs to protect helpless victims from multi million dollar boat rental corporations located on the Detroit River. Probably the only party that has any significant insurance in the whole situation. Paul