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Author Topic:   Radar on an 18' Outrage

Tom2697 posted 06-03-2003 06:55 PM ET (US)
I am interested in installing radar on my 18 Outrage. I do not have a t-top but am considering one as well. I like the benefits of the t-top but, of course, do not like the drawbacks of them (can't be lowered). Is there another method to mounting a dome radar antenna other than on a t-top or radar arch? I am thinking along the lines of fabricating a stand that is bolted to both the floor and the console and that could be lowered when needed. Also, how high would I need to mount the antenna?
Barry posted 06-03-2003 07:09 PM ET (US)
The stand you are describing is a radar mast. West Marine and others sell them. I believe they are around 90".
doobee posted 06-04-2003 12:18 AM ET (US)
You can set the radome at any height you want as long as its above your head. Generally speaking 8' to 10' above the water is ideal. In any case, the mast that West sells should be tall enough to do the trick. Plan to spend $300 to $400 for the mast.
If you are going to routinely drop the mast, you'll want to make sure it is notched, or marked, so you can make sure the radome is facing forward when you put it back up.
andygere posted 06-04-2003 01:01 AM ET (US)
I was never a fan of T-tops until I bought a Whaler that had one. Mine is not oversized, but does provide shelter from wind, spray, rain and even sun. It provides a great place for mounting a radar antenna, along with GPS and VHF antennas. The fabric enclosure that snap around it is hard to beat when it gets wooly out there. Here is a link to a few photos of my 22 that show the top:
http://groups.msn.com/TheGereFamilyWestCoastEdition/mybostonwhaler.msnw?Page=3
dfmcintyre posted 06-04-2003 08:47 AM ET (US)
Tom -
I'd locate a good stainless steel fabricator in your area, work with him and consider a removable mast attached to the stern area, on either port or starboard inside gunnel area. The design could be three pieces; the mast, support ring attached to the gunnel, and a bottom plate. Kinda like some of the sternlight brackets on the larger Whalers.
Make it high enough to get above head height. That way your away from a high energy source, and it's less prone to bounce, sway or otherwise get bounced around.
Don
hauptjm posted 06-04-2003 09:38 AM ET (US)
You assume there is high energy in that noggin. Sorry Don/Tom, I couldn't resist.
bsmotril posted 06-04-2003 11:02 AM ET (US)
I have seen this done on small center consoles using a single pole mast that either mounted to the top of the console, or to the deck in front of the console at the corner. Tou can also get a T-Top that is removable and can be removed. Check out Tops and towers in Houston TX.
BillS
Louie Kokinis posted 06-04-2003 01:46 PM ET (US)
Tom,
I searched for every type of solution before having a folding tower fabricated for my 22. I would suggest staying away from the mast, and was warned the only way to do a folding mast is with an aluminum console for proper support. They are designed for sailboats, and will eventually fail or break things on Whalers.
The tower costs more but works great. It folds neatly into the bow and can be raised (or lowered) within a couple minutes, (done right) it can also support outriggers and antennas.
Folding T-Tops are possible, but involve too many breakaway fittings for my liking - anything removable is also likely to create issues with the Radar wire.
Louie
PS Your deck will probably need extra support.
Tom2697 posted 06-04-2003 02:15 PM ET (US)
I appreciate all the input from everyone!
My main concern is that however I mount it, this will be strong enough to withstand offshore runs. I do not go Mach 1 but I also don't want to go 12 knots all the time (only while trolling!).
I'll keep you posted on what I do...
Thanks,
Tom
doobee posted 06-04-2003 10:45 PM ET (US)
One thing not mentioned so far is weight aloft. Towers and such work fine on larger boats, but excess weight aloft on an 18 could could make it more prone to capsize.
I don't know what Radar you plan to install, but the small JRC and Furuno radomes are very light and not likely to put much torque on a mast. I doubt it would put much more force on the console than your own body does at the helm.
If you mount the mast aft at the gun'l you would reduce the torque applied to the mast and you would have a stronger mounting point.
If money is no object, you could fabricate a mast that mounts on a tripod setup like a ski pylon. That would center the mast and it would look pretty slick.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-04-2003 11:04 PM ET (US)
If you mount it anywhere other then in front of the counsel [ no T top ], it's going to be in the way.
The main reason for a center counsel is, you can walk 360 degrees around the boat while fighting a fish, put a mast in the aft section & you will hate it.
Put it right in front of the counsel, have it teliscope one section [ about 4 - 5' each ] & fold forward.
Sal
Tom2697 posted 06-05-2003 10:18 AM ET (US)
Sal,
I never even thought about making it telescopic! All my thoughts were about making it foldable or take-apart.
Excellent suggestion!!!
Thanks,
Tom
mtbadfish posted 06-05-2003 01:08 PM ET (US)
Would you run a ground wire to a grounding plate from such a mast? It seems as though it would be an ideal target for lightning.
lhg posted 06-05-2003 05:49 PM ET (US)
I have seen full Radar Arches fabricated so that they fold down, basically hinged on the back leg, and the front legged has a pinned release.
Whether the 18 Outrage would look good with an arch is another issue.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-05-2003 08:10 PM ET (US)
The only thing about making it telescope is, the section that slides down inside the bottom tube has to leave the cable outside & unattatched to the smaller tube that slides inside the other.
I had that on one of my Alaska boats, the added 8 ft sure came in handy on top of the bottom 8 footer, sure made my 24 mile visual range much farther then it was.
Sal
jaccoserv posted 06-05-2003 09:43 PM ET (US)
I know a guy up here in the cape who had the tuna tower on his 43' Hatteras express fabbed with hinges so he could get under certain bridges. No problems that I know of.
SSCH posted 06-05-2003 10:10 PM ET (US)
Here's another approach..........
I had a radar arch built into a leaning post for my 22 Outrage. In my case I wanted more rod holders and no gunnel obstructions. The T Top didn't appeal so I had this hybrid built. It would have been very easy to hinge had I needed to do so. The arch was rock solid and in my case was set just high enough to look over the bimini top that came with my boat from Whaler. With the top up the arch sort of disappeared except for the radome and other antennae showing aft of the top. Top down the arch looked good to me, sort of like the Coast Guard boats with lights etc just behind the helm. The extra rod holders on the vertical legs of the arch became my favorite rod storage locations.
Barry posted 06-05-2003 10:12 PM ET (US)
SSCH, do you have any pictures?
doobee posted 06-09-2003 09:46 PM ET (US)
Hydrasport offers a similar leaning post as an option. It looks sharp.
alkar posted 06-09-2003 10:45 PM ET (US)
I have a new Atlantic Towers radar arch on my 22' - and it folds down (forward or aft) for storage. In fact, if it were not for all the wiring, the whole thing could be entirely removed from the boat in just a few minutes. It's very light and easy to handle.
Tom2697 posted 06-12-2003 05:21 PM ET (US)
Thanks to all for your help so far...
I think I will use the console mounted light fixture hole to enclose a mast for the radar. If I use a 90 degree 1" railing fitting mounted on top of the console and another mounted on the floor of the console, I should be able to remove the mast when needed and still have the stability for the mast in rough seas. I am not currently using this light fixture base due to glare problems when running at night.
I do have another question though....I keep seeing references to "NMEA 0183 compatibility" on almost all the radars that I am looking into. Does this mean that I can connect a handheld GPS to the radar as long as the GPS has this compatibility? In other words, should I spend the extra $800+ to get a radar/chartplotter unit or should I spend $400 to get a handheld plotter and then connect the two? I do like the ability to use the GPS in other boats or in my truck...Any comments/experiences with either approach would be appreciated....
Thanks,
Tom
doobee posted 06-16-2003 10:15 PM ET (US)
NMEA 0183 is a standard that allows various instruments to communicate. In the case of a GPS/RADAR interface, the RADAR will display the active GPS waypoint on the screen. Depending on the RADAR it will also display navigation, steering, and position data.
Having some experience with RADAR/Chartplotter combos, I would recommend keeping the two instruments seperate. Unless the display is huge, there just isn't enough room on a split screen to use either instrument very effectively. Also, if one instrument fails, you still have the other as a backup.
Tom2697 posted 06-17-2003 09:36 AM ET (US)
So then would a combination radar/chartplotter show the same as a radar connected to a chartplotter via the NMEA 0183 connection or would it just interface Lat/Lon coordinates to the marks? I've seen some combo units that will overlay the two displays....
bsmotril posted 06-17-2003 11:18 AM ET (US)
The Raytheon will let you display little data windows overlayed on the radar display showing speed, course, etc. This is useful when using the radar as the primary nav tool, like negotiating a crowded harber ir ICW in the fog or at night. Can also have the radar show a GPS waypoint displayed as an icon on the radar display. so even if you are not using split screen, you can still display useful info on the radar display by connecting a NEMA gps to it, at least with Raymarine/.Raytheon.
BillS
Tom2697 posted 06-17-2003 12:07 PM ET (US)
That is what I wanted to know....Thanks to all for your help!
doobee posted 06-17-2003 10:54 PM ET (US)
NMEA interface will not allow overlay. It will only allow shared info to be displayed in data boxes or as a waypoint marked on RADAR screen.
Most manufacturers offer a system which allows you to overlay RADAR echoes right onto the chart plotter screen, but this is available using only their proprietary interface system. In other words a Raymarine RADAR can only overlay onto a Raymarine plotter. It also requires the addition of a fluxgate compass to synchronize the chart and RADAR orientation.
I have not used a RADAR ovelayed on a chart in the real world, but the simulations I have viewed were not enough to sway me from my inclination to run each device on a separate display. I would rather read a chart in North up orientation, and RADAR in heads up orientation. I also prefer my displays to have less clutter.

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Author	Topic: Radar on an 18' Outrage
Tom2697	posted 06-03-2003 06:55 PM ET (US) I am interested in installing radar on my 18 Outrage. I do not have a t-top but am considering one as well. I like the benefits of the t-top but, of course, do not like the drawbacks of them (can't be lowered). Is there another method to mounting a dome radar antenna other than on a t-top or radar arch? I am thinking along the lines of fabricating a stand that is bolted to both the floor and the console and that could be lowered when needed. Also, how high would I need to mount the antenna?
Barry	posted 06-03-2003 07:09 PM ET (US) The stand you are describing is a radar mast. West Marine and others sell them. I believe they are around 90".
doobee	posted 06-04-2003 12:18 AM ET (US) You can set the radome at any height you want as long as its above your head. Generally speaking 8' to 10' above the water is ideal. In any case, the mast that West sells should be tall enough to do the trick. Plan to spend $300 to $400 for the mast. If you are going to routinely drop the mast, you'll want to make sure it is notched, or marked, so you can make sure the radome is facing forward when you put it back up.
andygere	posted 06-04-2003 01:01 AM ET (US) I was never a fan of T-tops until I bought a Whaler that had one. Mine is not oversized, but does provide shelter from wind, spray, rain and even sun. It provides a great place for mounting a radar antenna, along with GPS and VHF antennas. The fabric enclosure that snap around it is hard to beat when it gets wooly out there. Here is a link to a few photos of my 22 that show the top: http://groups.msn.com/TheGereFamilyWestCoastEdition/mybostonwhaler.msnw?Page=3
dfmcintyre	posted 06-04-2003 08:47 AM ET (US) Tom - I'd locate a good stainless steel fabricator in your area, work with him and consider a removable mast attached to the stern area, on either port or starboard inside gunnel area. The design could be three pieces; the mast, support ring attached to the gunnel, and a bottom plate. Kinda like some of the sternlight brackets on the larger Whalers. Make it high enough to get above head height. That way your away from a high energy source, and it's less prone to bounce, sway or otherwise get bounced around. Don
hauptjm	posted 06-04-2003 09:38 AM ET (US) You assume there is high energy in that noggin. Sorry Don/Tom, I couldn't resist.
bsmotril	posted 06-04-2003 11:02 AM ET (US) I have seen this done on small center consoles using a single pole mast that either mounted to the top of the console, or to the deck in front of the console at the corner. Tou can also get a T-Top that is removable and can be removed. Check out Tops and towers in Houston TX. BillS
Louie Kokinis	posted 06-04-2003 01:46 PM ET (US) Tom, I searched for every type of solution before having a folding tower fabricated for my 22. I would suggest staying away from the mast, and was warned the only way to do a folding mast is with an aluminum console for proper support. They are designed for sailboats, and will eventually fail or break things on Whalers. The tower costs more but works great. It folds neatly into the bow and can be raised (or lowered) within a couple minutes, (done right) it can also support outriggers and antennas. Folding T-Tops are possible, but involve too many breakaway fittings for my liking - anything removable is also likely to create issues with the Radar wire. Louie PS Your deck will probably need extra support.
Tom2697	posted 06-04-2003 02:15 PM ET (US) I appreciate all the input from everyone! My main concern is that however I mount it, this will be strong enough to withstand offshore runs. I do not go Mach 1 but I also don't want to go 12 knots all the time (only while trolling!). I'll keep you posted on what I do... Thanks, Tom
doobee	posted 06-04-2003 10:45 PM ET (US) One thing not mentioned so far is weight aloft. Towers and such work fine on larger boats, but excess weight aloft on an 18 could could make it more prone to capsize. I don't know what Radar you plan to install, but the small JRC and Furuno radomes are very light and not likely to put much torque on a mast. I doubt it would put much more force on the console than your own body does at the helm. If you mount the mast aft at the gun'l you would reduce the torque applied to the mast and you would have a stronger mounting point. If money is no object, you could fabricate a mast that mounts on a tripod setup like a ski pylon. That would center the mast and it would look pretty slick.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 06-04-2003 11:04 PM ET (US) If you mount it anywhere other then in front of the counsel [ no T top ], it's going to be in the way. The main reason for a center counsel is, you can walk 360 degrees around the boat while fighting a fish, put a mast in the aft section & you will hate it. Put it right in front of the counsel, have it teliscope one section [ about 4 - 5' each ] & fold forward. Sal
Tom2697	posted 06-05-2003 10:18 AM ET (US) Sal, I never even thought about making it telescopic! All my thoughts were about making it foldable or take-apart. Excellent suggestion!!! Thanks, Tom
mtbadfish	posted 06-05-2003 01:08 PM ET (US) Would you run a ground wire to a grounding plate from such a mast? It seems as though it would be an ideal target for lightning.
lhg	posted 06-05-2003 05:49 PM ET (US) I have seen full Radar Arches fabricated so that they fold down, basically hinged on the back leg, and the front legged has a pinned release. Whether the 18 Outrage would look good with an arch is another issue.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 06-05-2003 08:10 PM ET (US) The only thing about making it telescope is, the section that slides down inside the bottom tube has to leave the cable outside & unattatched to the smaller tube that slides inside the other. I had that on one of my Alaska boats, the added 8 ft sure came in handy on top of the bottom 8 footer, sure made my 24 mile visual range much farther then it was. Sal
jaccoserv	posted 06-05-2003 09:43 PM ET (US) I know a guy up here in the cape who had the tuna tower on his 43' Hatteras express fabbed with hinges so he could get under certain bridges. No problems that I know of.
SSCH	posted 06-05-2003 10:10 PM ET (US) Here's another approach.......... I had a radar arch built into a leaning post for my 22 Outrage. In my case I wanted more rod holders and no gunnel obstructions. The T Top didn't appeal so I had this hybrid built. It would have been very easy to hinge had I needed to do so. The arch was rock solid and in my case was set just high enough to look over the bimini top that came with my boat from Whaler. With the top up the arch sort of disappeared except for the radome and other antennae showing aft of the top. Top down the arch looked good to me, sort of like the Coast Guard boats with lights etc just behind the helm. The extra rod holders on the vertical legs of the arch became my favorite rod storage locations.
Barry	posted 06-05-2003 10:12 PM ET (US) SSCH, do you have any pictures?
doobee	posted 06-09-2003 09:46 PM ET (US) Hydrasport offers a similar leaning post as an option. It looks sharp.
alkar	posted 06-09-2003 10:45 PM ET (US) I have a new Atlantic Towers radar arch on my 22' - and it folds down (forward or aft) for storage. In fact, if it were not for all the wiring, the whole thing could be entirely removed from the boat in just a few minutes. It's very light and easy to handle.
Tom2697	posted 06-12-2003 05:21 PM ET (US) Thanks to all for your help so far... I think I will use the console mounted light fixture hole to enclose a mast for the radar. If I use a 90 degree 1" railing fitting mounted on top of the console and another mounted on the floor of the console, I should be able to remove the mast when needed and still have the stability for the mast in rough seas. I am not currently using this light fixture base due to glare problems when running at night. I do have another question though....I keep seeing references to "NMEA 0183 compatibility" on almost all the radars that I am looking into. Does this mean that I can connect a handheld GPS to the radar as long as the GPS has this compatibility? In other words, should I spend the extra $800+ to get a radar/chartplotter unit or should I spend $400 to get a handheld plotter and then connect the two? I do like the ability to use the GPS in other boats or in my truck...Any comments/experiences with either approach would be appreciated.... Thanks, Tom
doobee	posted 06-16-2003 10:15 PM ET (US) NMEA 0183 is a standard that allows various instruments to communicate. In the case of a GPS/RADAR interface, the RADAR will display the active GPS waypoint on the screen. Depending on the RADAR it will also display navigation, steering, and position data. Having some experience with RADAR/Chartplotter combos, I would recommend keeping the two instruments seperate. Unless the display is huge, there just isn't enough room on a split screen to use either instrument very effectively. Also, if one instrument fails, you still have the other as a backup.
Tom2697	posted 06-17-2003 09:36 AM ET (US) So then would a combination radar/chartplotter show the same as a radar connected to a chartplotter via the NMEA 0183 connection or would it just interface Lat/Lon coordinates to the marks? I've seen some combo units that will overlay the two displays....
bsmotril	posted 06-17-2003 11:18 AM ET (US) The Raytheon will let you display little data windows overlayed on the radar display showing speed, course, etc. This is useful when using the radar as the primary nav tool, like negotiating a crowded harber ir ICW in the fog or at night. Can also have the radar show a GPS waypoint displayed as an icon on the radar display. so even if you are not using split screen, you can still display useful info on the radar display by connecting a NEMA gps to it, at least with Raymarine/.Raytheon. BillS
Tom2697	posted 06-17-2003 12:07 PM ET (US) That is what I wanted to know....Thanks to all for your help!
doobee	posted 06-17-2003 10:54 PM ET (US) NMEA interface will not allow overlay. It will only allow shared info to be displayed in data boxes or as a waypoint marked on RADAR screen. Most manufacturers offer a system which allows you to overlay RADAR echoes right onto the chart plotter screen, but this is available using only their proprietary interface system. In other words a Raymarine RADAR can only overlay onto a Raymarine plotter. It also requires the addition of a fluxgate compass to synchronize the chart and RADAR orientation. I have not used a RADAR ovelayed on a chart in the real world, but the simulations I have viewed were not enough to sway me from my inclination to run each device on a separate display. I would rather read a chart in North up orientation, and RADAR in heads up orientation. I also prefer my displays to have less clutter.