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Author Topic:   underpowered Revenge

frankb posted 07-17-2003 05:05 PM ET (US)
I am currently considering buying an 85 22' W/T Revenge. The price is right, actually far less than what I have found other models at. The boat is powered only by a 150HP Johnson. Is that enough power for that vessel. The boat has been on the market for 2 weeks and I suspect there is either something majorly wrong with the vessel or buyers are passing the boat up do to the lack of power. Anyone have any thoughts or advise for this first time boat owner/buyer??
jimp posted 07-17-2003 05:30 PM ET (US)
frankb -
A 22 with 150 is underpowered. Top speed about 30 knots(?), fast cruise at 20... just a guess. I've got a 1990 Revenge 22 WT with 225 and it is great power! A 200 would be adequate.
A 150 will get you there, but with a struggle. How old is the engine? If its a 1985, and the original engine, then it has survived well and and might be given an honorable ceremony & retired. A new engine will help resale later.
JimP
Peter posted 07-17-2003 05:56 PM ET (US)
I agree. Its underpowered. 200 hp is the minimum that I would put on a Revenge 22. I have found that the Revenge 22's sweet spot for cruising is between 25 and 30 mph. The 150 will be breathing hard to provide speeds in that range. I would factor in a new engine at about $12k in your purchase decision making.
frontier posted 07-17-2003 10:35 PM ET (US)
We have a 1987 22 Revenge W/T with a 1997 150 Yamaha Saltwater Series. Plenty of power & speed. Good gas mileage.
Perfect combination for us.
Peter posted 07-18-2003 05:55 AM ET (US)
That is interesting Frontier. I'm curious to know several things. What RPM is your motor turning at 25 and 30 mph, respectively? What is the top speed? What is your best fuel economy on plane and at what speed? Finally, do you have any trouble keeping it on a slow plane in very heavy seas (the kind where you feel like you are going up and down hills)?
For comparison purposes, my Yamaha 225 equipped with a 15 1/4 x 17 stainless steel propeller turns about 3300 RPM at 25 mph and 3800 RPM at 30 mph. Top speed is about 43 to 44 mph and the best fuel economy is about 2.8 mpg in the cruising speed range. I usually like to run my 225 below 4000 RPM because I find that above that engine speed, it seems to consume quite a bit more oil and gas. There is absolutely no difficulty keeping the Revenge on a slow plane in heavy seas.
frankb posted 07-18-2003 11:40 AM ET (US)
Thank for feedback. Owner of boat has told me that he is not sure of engine size, may be 175hp. I will look at boat tomorrow and determine. I have factored in price of new motor/engine and am confident boat is still a good buy.
I'll let all know my outcome and findings on this powersetup.
kneucker posted 07-18-2003 07:35 PM ET (US)
I have an 86 revenge with twin 140's, runns like heck. I would say 200 hp is min for the boat. Good luck, its a great boat.
frontier posted 07-18-2003 08:35 PM ET (US)
Let's keep in mind the Boston Whaler brochure states (for the 1985-90 Revenge 22 Walk-Through) "Maximum HP 240, Minimum HP to plane satisfactorily with light load - 85".
Our 1987 with the 150 Yamaha (15 x 17 SS prop) will hit 40 MPH. Comfortable cruise speed is 26-28, using about 9 gallons an hour.(even with 9.9 4S kicker on board)
On a 325 mile long trip last summer it handled great! (even in BIG water).
Sometimes the only benefit to maximum HP is 5-10 MPH more speed.
peetmin posted 07-18-2003 08:46 PM ET (US)
Interesting, both Peter and myself have the same boat same Power with exact same top end. The additional 75hp only gets us 2-3mph more than your 150hp...humm:-/
mtbadfish posted 07-18-2003 08:57 PM ET (US)
I have a 22' Outrage Cuddy with a '99 Johnson 175. It has a hell of a hole shot, gets on plane quickly and does 40 mph at WOT. Maybe the trim tabs help a bit too, when I get them dialed in just right, but much of the time I run with them totally retracted. But that may change with the new kick installed.
Wouldn't most people want more hp? Yes, I suppose, but I don't think 200 hp is absolute minimum hp for the boat.
The wieght diference between the Outrage Cuddy and the Revenge (according to the reference chart) is 100# and I'm not sure if it would make an appreciable difference in performance, but I doubt it. All in all it's a pretty subjective issue, depending on all sorts of personal preferences.
frontier posted 07-18-2003 09:01 PM ET (US)
Part of the reason is the Yamaha 225 weighs about 85# more than the 150.
JohnM posted 07-18-2003 11:24 PM ET (US)
I have a 1983 22' Revenge cuddy with a 1983 175 hp Evinrude. It tops out at about 32 mph on gps cruises great at 4000 rpm at about 25 mph and is fair on hole shot if I get everyone to move forward. Doesn't seem to make much difference if I have 2 or 6 people on board!!! Most times in big water thats fast enough. I agree that when I repower I will probably go with 225 2 stroke. I spend most of my time trolling with the 9.9 Yamaha and the big motor is just to get me there so the Rude may last me a while...hopefully.
Peter posted 07-18-2003 11:32 PM ET (US)
Frontier, I still find 40 mph with a 150 hp hard to believe based on the tools our moderator has so generously provided here and data provided by others. Here's why I'm thinking that.
Propeller calculator:
Yamaha 225

Using the propeller calculator and plugging in my 5200 rpm, 1.81 gear ratio for the 225 hp motor, 17" pitch and 6% slip yields 43.5 mph (about where I and Peetmin are). Same number but no slip yields 46.5 mph.
Yamaha 150
Using 40 mph, no slip, 1.86:1 gear ratio for the 150 hp motor and a 17" pitch yields a WOT rpm of 4720 (too low). With 6% slip, the rpms rise to 5022 (still a little on the low side and suggests a possible overpropped condition).
Performance predictor:
Revenge 22, Yamaha 225
In my case, using a total weight of 3750 lbs (2350 lbs for the hull, 500 lbs for the motor, 500 lbs for fuel (full tank 77 gallons), 100 lbs for two batteries, 100 lbs of miscellaneous equipment and 200 lbs of persons), 225 hp (a bit on the high side I believe for a Yamaha 225) and 180 as the hull factor yields a predicted top speed of about 44 mph. Again about where I and Peetmin are.
Revenge 22, Yamaha 150 + 9.9 4s kicker
In this case, I calculate a total weight of 3765 lbs (difference is 425lb for the 150 and 91 lbs for the 9.9 4s kicker versus 500 lbs for 225 hp motor). Using a total weight of 3765 lbs, 150hp and 180 as the hull factor predicts a top speed of 35.9 mph. Thus, to get 40 mph, either your motor is producing more than 150 hp, your total weight is less than 3100 lbs, a hull factor of 200 rather than 180 applies to your hull, or some of each of these deviations apply.
Outrage 22 Cuddy, Johnson 175
By my estimation, total weight is likely to be about 3550 lbs (2250 lbs for hull, 425 lbs for motor, 500 lbs for fuel, 100 lbs for two batteries, 100lbs of misc. equipment and 200 lbs of persons). Performance predictor using 175 hp and 180 as the hull factor predicts 40.2 mph. Mtbadfish reports 40 mph at WOT.
Frontier, I'd still like to know WOT and cruising rpms. Does your Revenge have bottom paint? How are you measuring your speed? Assuming the above demonstration of the prop calculator is accurately predicting your WOT rpm, I would move down to a 15" pitch to get your motor's rpms up to prevent lugging of the motor.

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Author	Topic: underpowered Revenge
frankb	posted 07-17-2003 05:05 PM ET (US) I am currently considering buying an 85 22' W/T Revenge. The price is right, actually far less than what I have found other models at. The boat is powered only by a 150HP Johnson. Is that enough power for that vessel. The boat has been on the market for 2 weeks and I suspect there is either something majorly wrong with the vessel or buyers are passing the boat up do to the lack of power. Anyone have any thoughts or advise for this first time boat owner/buyer??
jimp	posted 07-17-2003 05:30 PM ET (US) frankb - A 22 with 150 is underpowered. Top speed about 30 knots(?), fast cruise at 20... just a guess. I've got a 1990 Revenge 22 WT with 225 and it is great power! A 200 would be adequate. A 150 will get you there, but with a struggle. How old is the engine? If its a 1985, and the original engine, then it has survived well and and might be given an honorable ceremony & retired. A new engine will help resale later. JimP
Peter	posted 07-17-2003 05:56 PM ET (US) I agree. Its underpowered. 200 hp is the minimum that I would put on a Revenge 22. I have found that the Revenge 22's sweet spot for cruising is between 25 and 30 mph. The 150 will be breathing hard to provide speeds in that range. I would factor in a new engine at about $12k in your purchase decision making.
frontier	posted 07-17-2003 10:35 PM ET (US) We have a 1987 22 Revenge W/T with a 1997 150 Yamaha Saltwater Series. Plenty of power & speed. Good gas mileage. Perfect combination for us.
Peter	posted 07-18-2003 05:55 AM ET (US) That is interesting Frontier. I'm curious to know several things. What RPM is your motor turning at 25 and 30 mph, respectively? What is the top speed? What is your best fuel economy on plane and at what speed? Finally, do you have any trouble keeping it on a slow plane in very heavy seas (the kind where you feel like you are going up and down hills)? For comparison purposes, my Yamaha 225 equipped with a 15 1/4 x 17 stainless steel propeller turns about 3300 RPM at 25 mph and 3800 RPM at 30 mph. Top speed is about 43 to 44 mph and the best fuel economy is about 2.8 mpg in the cruising speed range. I usually like to run my 225 below 4000 RPM because I find that above that engine speed, it seems to consume quite a bit more oil and gas. There is absolutely no difficulty keeping the Revenge on a slow plane in heavy seas.
frankb	posted 07-18-2003 11:40 AM ET (US) Thank for feedback. Owner of boat has told me that he is not sure of engine size, may be 175hp. I will look at boat tomorrow and determine. I have factored in price of new motor/engine and am confident boat is still a good buy. I'll let all know my outcome and findings on this powersetup.
kneucker	posted 07-18-2003 07:35 PM ET (US) I have an 86 revenge with twin 140's, runns like heck. I would say 200 hp is min for the boat. Good luck, its a great boat.
frontier	posted 07-18-2003 08:35 PM ET (US) Let's keep in mind the Boston Whaler brochure states (for the 1985-90 Revenge 22 Walk-Through) "Maximum HP 240, Minimum HP to plane satisfactorily with light load - 85". Our 1987 with the 150 Yamaha (15 x 17 SS prop) will hit 40 MPH. Comfortable cruise speed is 26-28, using about 9 gallons an hour.(even with 9.9 4S kicker on board) On a 325 mile long trip last summer it handled great! (even in BIG water). Sometimes the only benefit to maximum HP is 5-10 MPH more speed.
peetmin	posted 07-18-2003 08:46 PM ET (US) Interesting, both Peter and myself have the same boat same Power with exact same top end. The additional 75hp only gets us 2-3mph more than your 150hp...humm:-/
mtbadfish	posted 07-18-2003 08:57 PM ET (US) I have a 22' Outrage Cuddy with a '99 Johnson 175. It has a hell of a hole shot, gets on plane quickly and does 40 mph at WOT. Maybe the trim tabs help a bit too, when I get them dialed in just right, but much of the time I run with them totally retracted. But that may change with the new kick installed. Wouldn't most people want more hp? Yes, I suppose, but I don't think 200 hp is absolute minimum hp for the boat. The wieght diference between the Outrage Cuddy and the Revenge (according to the reference chart) is 100# and I'm not sure if it would make an appreciable difference in performance, but I doubt it. All in all it's a pretty subjective issue, depending on all sorts of personal preferences.
frontier	posted 07-18-2003 09:01 PM ET (US) Part of the reason is the Yamaha 225 weighs about 85# more than the 150.
JohnM	posted 07-18-2003 11:24 PM ET (US) I have a 1983 22' Revenge cuddy with a 1983 175 hp Evinrude. It tops out at about 32 mph on gps cruises great at 4000 rpm at about 25 mph and is fair on hole shot if I get everyone to move forward. Doesn't seem to make much difference if I have 2 or 6 people on board!!! Most times in big water thats fast enough. I agree that when I repower I will probably go with 225 2 stroke. I spend most of my time trolling with the 9.9 Yamaha and the big motor is just to get me there so the Rude may last me a while...hopefully.
Peter	posted 07-18-2003 11:32 PM ET (US) Frontier, I still find 40 mph with a 150 hp hard to believe based on the tools our moderator has so generously provided here and data provided by others. Here's why I'm thinking that. Propeller calculator: Yamaha 225 Using the propeller calculator and plugging in my 5200 rpm, 1.81 gear ratio for the 225 hp motor, 17" pitch and 6% slip yields 43.5 mph (about where I and Peetmin are). Same number but no slip yields 46.5 mph. Yamaha 150 Using 40 mph, no slip, 1.86:1 gear ratio for the 150 hp motor and a 17" pitch yields a WOT rpm of 4720 (too low). With 6% slip, the rpms rise to 5022 (still a little on the low side and suggests a possible overpropped condition). Performance predictor: Revenge 22, Yamaha 225 In my case, using a total weight of 3750 lbs (2350 lbs for the hull, 500 lbs for the motor, 500 lbs for fuel (full tank 77 gallons), 100 lbs for two batteries, 100 lbs of miscellaneous equipment and 200 lbs of persons), 225 hp (a bit on the high side I believe for a Yamaha 225) and 180 as the hull factor yields a predicted top speed of about 44 mph. Again about where I and Peetmin are. Revenge 22, Yamaha 150 + 9.9 4s kicker In this case, I calculate a total weight of 3765 lbs (difference is 425lb for the 150 and 91 lbs for the 9.9 4s kicker versus 500 lbs for 225 hp motor). Using a total weight of 3765 lbs, 150hp and 180 as the hull factor predicts a top speed of 35.9 mph. Thus, to get 40 mph, either your motor is producing more than 150 hp, your total weight is less than 3100 lbs, a hull factor of 200 rather than 180 applies to your hull, or some of each of these deviations apply. Outrage 22 Cuddy, Johnson 175 By my estimation, total weight is likely to be about 3550 lbs (2250 lbs for hull, 425 lbs for motor, 500 lbs for fuel, 100 lbs for two batteries, 100lbs of misc. equipment and 200 lbs of persons). Performance predictor using 175 hp and 180 as the hull factor predicts 40.2 mph. Mtbadfish reports 40 mph at WOT. Frontier, I'd still like to know WOT and cruising rpms. Does your Revenge have bottom paint? How are you measuring your speed? Assuming the above demonstration of the prop calculator is accurately predicting your WOT rpm, I would move down to a 15" pitch to get your motor's rpms up to prevent lugging of the motor.