Using radar to track birds in flight - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
  Using radar to track birds in flight

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Using radar to track birds in flight

crabby posted 02-12-2005 02:58 PM ET (US)
This has nothing to do with BW's...but I am sometimes amazed at the broad wealth of knowledge some of the folks here have so I am asking:
I have been asked to look into setting up a system to track birds in flight as part of an enviromental site monitoring survey/project. The idea would be to use a radar system interfaced with some sort of a datalogger (most likely a computer) that could be used to roughly determine numbers of birds and their flight paths. The system would need to be mobile (for mounting in a truck bed).
I have no firsthand personal experience with marine (or other) radar systems; I'm looking for comments/suggestions from folks who may have some clue as to the feasibility of such a system within the budget we have (roughly $10,000.00US). We likely do not have sufficient funding to outright purchase a system and the first quote we got from an outside firm was for over 6 times the above figure (and they wanted to perform all the analytical work too for even more money; too much $$$, way out of our league).
Can a small boat system actually track critters this size? At what distance? Can the outputs actually be interfaced with a computer, and can screen shots or data actually be captured?
As I mentioned to my partner, we probably need a Hummer with an AA tracking system but that's not going to happen...
Knot at Work posted 02-13-2005 08:34 AM ET (US)
I have over 1500 Flight Hours in Navy Helicopters operating Airborne Sensors. I can tell you absolutely that RADAR WILL NOT track birds.
The problem is because RADAR acts in theory as a Radio Wave Bouncing or reflecting off an Object. The distance it takes for two way travel is measured as a radar range and is then displayed on a format either PPI or Raster - which is like a map we see on surface radars, or as a A scan that shows altitude, etc...
Generally a bird as with any other form of life is made of material that absorbs that radio signal. If there is enough absorbtion that signal is muted or not even returned. Additional Factors are size. Smaller objects are difficult to resolve for RADAR primarily as a function of display. An operator would have to overcome the ability to discern a bird in particular one you want to track if it were even possible from other birds or objects flying in low altitude, Crows, Hawks, Geese, Aflac ducks or whatever.
It simply is a matter of physics that is limiting the ability, and then it is a question of money to overcome the physics, and lastly it will be a question of operator recognition ability or diffrential to analyze correctly what they are looking at. ( remember even at Pearl Harbor, Radar Operators thought the incoming waves were actually American B-17's)
I recoomend if you are attempting to track in flight a group of birds... you must first insert a GPS device on a few of them with enough receiving the GPS to effectivly Track the pattern of migration. Accounting for death, and bad flight planning, you should have enough birds fitted prior to their flight to allow it.
Lastly as PROOF of the infeasability of what you ask.. Bird Strikes cost the most damage to military aircraft operating in and around airfields. IF there were RADAR avoidance for Birds the Military would have already developed it. As would Air Towers all across the airports.. But it is not possible
KAW
Tarpun posted 02-14-2005 09:41 AM ET (US)
I'm certainly not an expert on radar but do have some experience using it for finding birds. Here on the East central coast of Florida (Ponce Inlet, Port Canaveral,Sebastion Inlet) radars are used for finding birds when fishing for yellowfin tuna . Find the birds-find the fish. We used a Furuno model 1942 6KW 64 mile unit with a 42" open beam. Cost approx. $6,000 about ten years ago. That was one of the first below 10KW units that was effective at finding birds out to about 6 miles. There are probablly more and less expensive units on the market at this time. Under ideal conditions we could actually see two or three birds sitting on the water at two- three miles and see weedlines also. When researcing which radar to purchase the Furuno rep. (who actually did fish) told me about seeing weedlines and flotsam. I thought he was exaggerating. The calmer the ocean the better viewing. When the ocean got rough it was harder to see the birds due to more clutter from the waves. Thbe mounting height of the antenna and stablity of the boat also are factors.Simrad and JRC are also popular. Furuno also made a 'S' band radar that was way more expensive but was the deal for finding birds. It was used mostly by the SoCal. Long range boats. You may want to give the Radar Manufacturers a call. When we were hunting radars the furuno people were the only ones we talked to that would say there radars would see birds.
At that time an interface with your GPS unit would allow the targets position to be displayed. Capt. Ed Dwer on the charter boat "The Ticket" out of Port Canaveral is generally credited with developing the technique here on the FL. East coast.
Hope the info helps.
crabby posted 02-14-2005 09:46 AM ET (US)
Knot:
Thanks for the reply/feedback.
While I agree that you are correct on most all the points you brought up, there IS literature (and I do not have it in front of me so I can't give the actual references) regarding tracking not individual birds but flocks on migratory flights from ground based military radar. (On my next trip into the city I will grab the papers) Most likely the array(s) used were far larger than anything I may be able to gain access to and although older technology than what you may have operated in the rotaries just plain larger and more sensitive (or had a sufficiently interested operator at the controls).
You are very correct about the difficulty in trying to do what we have been asked to accomplish but we are not interested in tracking individual birds, we are just getting a general feel for migratory flocks in a particular area. The client is interested in setting up a wind turbine farm and the concern is mostly involving birds that may fly into things on nocturnal flights (they want us to look at bats also but as I know birds are tough the little mammals would be nearly impossible). Heck, I know just how tough it can be to track properly radio tagged birds (unless of course you have a megabudget and can use satelite tracking) from a ground based setup (I still have a desk in the Ornithology Dept at the American Museum of Natural History and have been involved in some remote tracking projects over the past years); trying to accomplish a fete such as this on the budget given us is really stretching the limits of our abilities!
I was hoping that possibly consumer level technology may have progressed to the point of doing what we would like to do; I have a few enquiries in to some of the radar manufacturers and am awaiting their mega-buck solutions which will likely put the final kill on this project. Thanks for your input and pretty much confirming my gut feelings about this!
crabby posted 02-14-2005 09:54 AM ET (US)
Tarpun:
Thanks for the info! I thought there might be some hope for this!
I have a neighbor who runs an open 65foot fishing boat who tells me I'd need at least a 12kW unit; he says his machine is not really suitable (about 7.5kW)(but he does mostly bottom fishing nearshore here on LI anyhow so tracking birds wouldn't help him much). And as it is the off season here none of the charter/party boat captains are hanging around the docks.
I've got some emails out to the radar manufacturers and will post any relevant info once I get some feedback.
crabby posted 02-14-2005 09:55 AM ET (US)
Tarpun:
Thanks for the info! I thought there might be some hope for this!
I have a neighbor who runs an open 65foot fishing boat who tells me I'd need at least a 12kW unit; he says his machine is not really suitable (about 7.5kW)(but he does mostly bottom fishing nearshore here on LI anyhow so tracking birds wouldn't help him much). And as it is the off season here none of the charter/party boat captains are hanging around the docks.
I've got some emails out to the radar manufacturers and will post any relevant info once I get some feedback.
Tarpun posted 02-14-2005 11:07 AM ET (US)
Crabby,
Glad to be of some help. Although power is important the configuration of the antenna array apparently is also important. I seem to remember being told that the array on the Furuno 1942 had a transmitter(?) in each each end of the antenna not just the middle. Also you have to adjust the gain, echo, and filters differently than what you would normaly use for navigation. At sea you don't have to contend with land contours such as hills or things like trees but could probably compensate for that by added antenna elevation. You still might be able to do this within your budget restraints but I think the H2 is probably out of the question.
Tarpun
mikit posted 02-16-2005 06:58 AM ET (US)
Crabby,
Since you are in the field you probably have already seen this information but it may be interesting to others.
http://www.ebird.org/content/news/RadarTracking.html
I do not suppose there is a NEXRAD doppler radar wheather installation near by that you could monitor.
Clemson University Radar Ornithology Laboratory website offers some useful information on the subject.
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/birdrad/index.htm
Perhaps the program departments at Clemson or Cornell could assist or give you advise on equipment and process.
Then there is the military BASH, Bird/Animal Aircraft Strike Hazard program. Clemson University developed BirdRAD for the DoD and it is used at many Air Force, Marine and Navy Installations. The following is from the Navy Safety Center webpage: http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/vault/articles/2002/0451.htm
"BIRDRAD is capable not only of tracking birds on radar, but of storing radar images and exporting them as a graphic file that can be printed, e-mailed or made available on a web page. Trends in bird movement can then be studied and predicted, allowing planners to take into account the danger of bird strikes during missions to and from the airfield"
I know this is fairly new technology but you never can tell what you might find at a government surplus sale.
Mike L.
mikit posted 02-16-2005 07:20 AM ET (US)
My last post was getting a little long so I thought I would include this from Furuno separately. May not be much help but to me it's interesting.
http://www.furuno.com/furuno/Doc/0/RGV79V8MGN04L6SDQMJFBNLEC0/Waypoints_8-04.pdf
Then there is always the commercial route.
http://www.detect-inc.com/wind/?p=wind
crabby posted 02-17-2005 02:28 PM ET (US)
Mikit:
Thank you much for the links, have been busy elsewhere the past day or two and will check things out when I return.
Landlocked posted 02-17-2005 02:58 PM ET (US)
For tracking bats look into audio locators which translate the "locating chirps" they make into a frequency that can be heard by the human ear. There are systems in use that also plot the sound-wave form and allow for identification. Especially useful for species like the Gray bat and the Indiana Bat when mist net surveys are not warranted.
TexasWhaler posted 02-17-2005 03:21 PM ET (US)
crabby,
Check this site out. They may have some good ideas, and since their based at a university, should be open to answering questions and/or providing info.
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/birdrad/index.htm
Robob2003 posted 02-17-2005 03:50 PM ET (US)
Crabby,
<Can a small boat system actually track critters this size?>
I concur with Tarpun.
I have seen articles in some fishing magazines about using marine radar to find birds too distant to be seen with the naked eye reasoning that there are likely to be fish feeding and driving bait to the surface where they become bird food:-)
I would recommend contacting, among others, Florida Sportsman and Saltwater Sportsman. They both have websites that you can Google search.
Any radar manufacturer such as Furuno should also be able to help and furnish specifics.
Hope this helps.
Bob on Tampa Bay
Tarpun posted 02-17-2005 08:26 PM ET (US)
Crabby
Just got the Feb. '05 issue of Sport Fishing Magazine.
Page 68, their electronics column has an article "find the Birds, Find the Fish!". It gives a pretty good basic picture of the equipment and technique. It also lists 8 radar manufacturers.
Tarpun
Knot at Work posted 02-18-2005 09:08 AM ET (US)
While it may possibly work for a Flock of Birds on the surface of the water in a calm sea state with a Surface Search Radar using a PPI scan. Sea Clutter turned all the way up and the Gain set to Max. Discerning birds from floating debris at 6 miles is impossible. I maintain that to track birds in flight in the sky is pure folly. My experience.
dfmcintyre posted 02-18-2005 11:45 AM ET (US)
I've flown down at the southern end of our county there is a flats area (wildlife refuge) where the St. Clair River dumps into Lake St. Clair. About 15 miles to the west is an ANG base, with radar. We usually make contact with them for conflicting traffic reports.
A few times I've received conflicting traffic reports without an altitude report from Selfridge (usually in the fall) and determined that it was a flock of ducks. They will usually report the traffic as slow moving, altitude unknown at my whatever oclock.
Anecodotal for sure, but it's happened to me.
Don
Tarpun posted 02-18-2005 07:16 PM ET (US)
Knot At Work,
I'm sorry if I implied that birds sitting on water could be distinguished from from floating debris. I have seen weedlines on the water at 3+ miles and have seen birds sitting on the water at close to the same range. Birds just look like some floating debris. Under the right conditions I have regularly tracked flocks of less than a dozen birds (seagull size) at distances to 4+ miles using a Furuno 1942 radar (6Kw 64mi. range) with the open array antenna mounted on top of the half tower of a 29' Blackfin approx. 15' above the water. From watching the screen I couldn't tell you how high or how many but I could tell whether it was a few or a bunch, how far and what heading. By the way, we could see them out to as far as 8 miles but generally didn't look for them beyond 3 or 4 miles. The problem was that before we coul get there (at 26kts) the tuna would probably go down and the birds move off looking for a new school. My experience.
Tarpun
Knot at Work posted 02-19-2005 08:21 AM ET (US)
Tarpun,
Roger, out.
KAW

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: Using radar to track birds in flight
crabby	posted 02-12-2005 02:58 PM ET (US) This has nothing to do with BW's...but I am sometimes amazed at the broad wealth of knowledge some of the folks here have so I am asking: I have been asked to look into setting up a system to track birds in flight as part of an enviromental site monitoring survey/project. The idea would be to use a radar system interfaced with some sort of a datalogger (most likely a computer) that could be used to roughly determine numbers of birds and their flight paths. The system would need to be mobile (for mounting in a truck bed). I have no firsthand personal experience with marine (or other) radar systems; I'm looking for comments/suggestions from folks who may have some clue as to the feasibility of such a system within the budget we have (roughly $10,000.00US). We likely do not have sufficient funding to outright purchase a system and the first quote we got from an outside firm was for over 6 times the above figure (and they wanted to perform all the analytical work too for even more money; too much $$$, way out of our league). Can a small boat system actually track critters this size? At what distance? Can the outputs actually be interfaced with a computer, and can screen shots or data actually be captured? As I mentioned to my partner, we probably need a Hummer with an AA tracking system but that's not going to happen...
Knot at Work	posted 02-13-2005 08:34 AM ET (US) I have over 1500 Flight Hours in Navy Helicopters operating Airborne Sensors. I can tell you absolutely that RADAR WILL NOT track birds. The problem is because RADAR acts in theory as a Radio Wave Bouncing or reflecting off an Object. The distance it takes for two way travel is measured as a radar range and is then displayed on a format either PPI or Raster - which is like a map we see on surface radars, or as a A scan that shows altitude, etc... Generally a bird as with any other form of life is made of material that absorbs that radio signal. If there is enough absorbtion that signal is muted or not even returned. Additional Factors are size. Smaller objects are difficult to resolve for RADAR primarily as a function of display. An operator would have to overcome the ability to discern a bird in particular one you want to track if it were even possible from other birds or objects flying in low altitude, Crows, Hawks, Geese, Aflac ducks or whatever. It simply is a matter of physics that is limiting the ability, and then it is a question of money to overcome the physics, and lastly it will be a question of operator recognition ability or diffrential to analyze correctly what they are looking at. ( remember even at Pearl Harbor, Radar Operators thought the incoming waves were actually American B-17's) I recoomend if you are attempting to track in flight a group of birds... you must first insert a GPS device on a few of them with enough receiving the GPS to effectivly Track the pattern of migration. Accounting for death, and bad flight planning, you should have enough birds fitted prior to their flight to allow it. Lastly as PROOF of the infeasability of what you ask.. Bird Strikes cost the most damage to military aircraft operating in and around airfields. IF there were RADAR avoidance for Birds the Military would have already developed it. As would Air Towers all across the airports.. But it is not possible KAW
Tarpun	posted 02-14-2005 09:41 AM ET (US) I'm certainly not an expert on radar but do have some experience using it for finding birds. Here on the East central coast of Florida (Ponce Inlet, Port Canaveral,Sebastion Inlet) radars are used for finding birds when fishing for yellowfin tuna . Find the birds-find the fish. We used a Furuno model 1942 6KW 64 mile unit with a 42" open beam. Cost approx. $6,000 about ten years ago. That was one of the first below 10KW units that was effective at finding birds out to about 6 miles. There are probablly more and less expensive units on the market at this time. Under ideal conditions we could actually see two or three birds sitting on the water at two- three miles and see weedlines also. When researcing which radar to purchase the Furuno rep. (who actually did fish) told me about seeing weedlines and flotsam. I thought he was exaggerating. The calmer the ocean the better viewing. When the ocean got rough it was harder to see the birds due to more clutter from the waves. Thbe mounting height of the antenna and stablity of the boat also are factors.Simrad and JRC are also popular. Furuno also made a 'S' band radar that was way more expensive but was the deal for finding birds. It was used mostly by the SoCal. Long range boats. You may want to give the Radar Manufacturers a call. When we were hunting radars the furuno people were the only ones we talked to that would say there radars would see birds. At that time an interface with your GPS unit would allow the targets position to be displayed. Capt. Ed Dwer on the charter boat "The Ticket" out of Port Canaveral is generally credited with developing the technique here on the FL. East coast. Hope the info helps.
crabby	posted 02-14-2005 09:46 AM ET (US) Knot: Thanks for the reply/feedback. While I agree that you are correct on most all the points you brought up, there IS literature (and I do not have it in front of me so I can't give the actual references) regarding tracking not individual birds but flocks on migratory flights from ground based military radar. (On my next trip into the city I will grab the papers) Most likely the array(s) used were far larger than anything I may be able to gain access to and although older technology than what you may have operated in the rotaries just plain larger and more sensitive (or had a sufficiently interested operator at the controls). You are very correct about the difficulty in trying to do what we have been asked to accomplish but we are not interested in tracking individual birds, we are just getting a general feel for migratory flocks in a particular area. The client is interested in setting up a wind turbine farm and the concern is mostly involving birds that may fly into things on nocturnal flights (they want us to look at bats also but as I know birds are tough the little mammals would be nearly impossible). Heck, I know just how tough it can be to track properly radio tagged birds (unless of course you have a megabudget and can use satelite tracking) from a ground based setup (I still have a desk in the Ornithology Dept at the American Museum of Natural History and have been involved in some remote tracking projects over the past years); trying to accomplish a fete such as this on the budget given us is really stretching the limits of our abilities! I was hoping that possibly consumer level technology may have progressed to the point of doing what we would like to do; I have a few enquiries in to some of the radar manufacturers and am awaiting their mega-buck solutions which will likely put the final kill on this project. Thanks for your input and pretty much confirming my gut feelings about this!
crabby	posted 02-14-2005 09:54 AM ET (US) Tarpun: Thanks for the info! I thought there might be some hope for this! I have a neighbor who runs an open 65foot fishing boat who tells me I'd need at least a 12kW unit; he says his machine is not really suitable (about 7.5kW)(but he does mostly bottom fishing nearshore here on LI anyhow so tracking birds wouldn't help him much). And as it is the off season here none of the charter/party boat captains are hanging around the docks. I've got some emails out to the radar manufacturers and will post any relevant info once I get some feedback.
crabby	posted 02-14-2005 09:55 AM ET (US) Tarpun: Thanks for the info! I thought there might be some hope for this! I have a neighbor who runs an open 65foot fishing boat who tells me I'd need at least a 12kW unit; he says his machine is not really suitable (about 7.5kW)(but he does mostly bottom fishing nearshore here on LI anyhow so tracking birds wouldn't help him much). And as it is the off season here none of the charter/party boat captains are hanging around the docks. I've got some emails out to the radar manufacturers and will post any relevant info once I get some feedback.
Tarpun	posted 02-14-2005 11:07 AM ET (US) Crabby, Glad to be of some help. Although power is important the configuration of the antenna array apparently is also important. I seem to remember being told that the array on the Furuno 1942 had a transmitter(?) in each each end of the antenna not just the middle. Also you have to adjust the gain, echo, and filters differently than what you would normaly use for navigation. At sea you don't have to contend with land contours such as hills or things like trees but could probably compensate for that by added antenna elevation. You still might be able to do this within your budget restraints but I think the H2 is probably out of the question. Tarpun
mikit	posted 02-16-2005 06:58 AM ET (US) Crabby, Since you are in the field you probably have already seen this information but it may be interesting to others. http://www.ebird.org/content/news/RadarTracking.html I do not suppose there is a NEXRAD doppler radar wheather installation near by that you could monitor. Clemson University Radar Ornithology Laboratory website offers some useful information on the subject. http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/birdrad/index.htm Perhaps the program departments at Clemson or Cornell could assist or give you advise on equipment and process. Then there is the military BASH, Bird/Animal Aircraft Strike Hazard program. Clemson University developed BirdRAD for the DoD and it is used at many Air Force, Marine and Navy Installations. The following is from the Navy Safety Center webpage: http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/vault/articles/2002/0451.htm "BIRDRAD is capable not only of tracking birds on radar, but of storing radar images and exporting them as a graphic file that can be printed, e-mailed or made available on a web page. Trends in bird movement can then be studied and predicted, allowing planners to take into account the danger of bird strikes during missions to and from the airfield" I know this is fairly new technology but you never can tell what you might find at a government surplus sale. Mike L.
mikit	posted 02-16-2005 07:20 AM ET (US) My last post was getting a little long so I thought I would include this from Furuno separately. May not be much help but to me it's interesting. http://www.furuno.com/furuno/Doc/0/RGV79V8MGN04L6SDQMJFBNLEC0/Waypoints_8-04.pdf Then there is always the commercial route. http://www.detect-inc.com/wind/?p=wind
crabby	posted 02-17-2005 02:28 PM ET (US) Mikit: Thank you much for the links, have been busy elsewhere the past day or two and will check things out when I return.
Landlocked	posted 02-17-2005 02:58 PM ET (US) For tracking bats look into audio locators which translate the "locating chirps" they make into a frequency that can be heard by the human ear. There are systems in use that also plot the sound-wave form and allow for identification. Especially useful for species like the Gray bat and the Indiana Bat when mist net surveys are not warranted.
TexasWhaler	posted 02-17-2005 03:21 PM ET (US) crabby, Check this site out. They may have some good ideas, and since their based at a university, should be open to answering questions and/or providing info. http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/birdrad/index.htm
Robob2003	posted 02-17-2005 03:50 PM ET (US) Crabby, <Can a small boat system actually track critters this size?> I concur with Tarpun. I have seen articles in some fishing magazines about using marine radar to find birds too distant to be seen with the naked eye reasoning that there are likely to be fish feeding and driving bait to the surface where they become bird food:-) I would recommend contacting, among others, Florida Sportsman and Saltwater Sportsman. They both have websites that you can Google search. Any radar manufacturer such as Furuno should also be able to help and furnish specifics. Hope this helps. Bob on Tampa Bay
Tarpun	posted 02-17-2005 08:26 PM ET (US) Crabby Just got the Feb. '05 issue of Sport Fishing Magazine. Page 68, their electronics column has an article "find the Birds, Find the Fish!". It gives a pretty good basic picture of the equipment and technique. It also lists 8 radar manufacturers. Tarpun
Knot at Work	posted 02-18-2005 09:08 AM ET (US) While it may possibly work for a Flock of Birds on the surface of the water in a calm sea state with a Surface Search Radar using a PPI scan. Sea Clutter turned all the way up and the Gain set to Max. Discerning birds from floating debris at 6 miles is impossible. I maintain that to track birds in flight in the sky is pure folly. My experience.
dfmcintyre	posted 02-18-2005 11:45 AM ET (US) I've flown down at the southern end of our county there is a flats area (wildlife refuge) where the St. Clair River dumps into Lake St. Clair. About 15 miles to the west is an ANG base, with radar. We usually make contact with them for conflicting traffic reports. A few times I've received conflicting traffic reports without an altitude report from Selfridge (usually in the fall) and determined that it was a flock of ducks. They will usually report the traffic as slow moving, altitude unknown at my whatever oclock. Anecodotal for sure, but it's happened to me. Don
Tarpun	posted 02-18-2005 07:16 PM ET (US) Knot At Work, I'm sorry if I implied that birds sitting on water could be distinguished from from floating debris. I have seen weedlines on the water at 3+ miles and have seen birds sitting on the water at close to the same range. Birds just look like some floating debris. Under the right conditions I have regularly tracked flocks of less than a dozen birds (seagull size) at distances to 4+ miles using a Furuno 1942 radar (6Kw 64mi. range) with the open array antenna mounted on top of the half tower of a 29' Blackfin approx. 15' above the water. From watching the screen I couldn't tell you how high or how many but I could tell whether it was a few or a bunch, how far and what heading. By the way, we could see them out to as far as 8 miles but generally didn't look for them beyond 3 or 4 miles. The problem was that before we coul get there (at 26kts) the tuna would probably go down and the birds move off looking for a new school. My experience. Tarpun
Knot at Work	posted 02-19-2005 08:21 AM ET (US) Tarpun, Roger, out. KAW