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| Author | Topic: Fly-by-wire Outboard Motors |
| randyt |
Rumor [about a three year old one!--jimh] has it that Mercury is working a fly-by-wire technogy for outboards. When you think of all the rigging that has to go on, this idea has merit. If it is good enough for Boeing, why not a Whaler. Yea, I know, were all going to die when it fails. Randy |
| pglein |
Our new 36' Albin has electonic controls for it's diesel engine. It's definitely the way the industry is heading. I'm not sure what happens when it fails though. |
| Buckda |
Is this fly-by-wire system different than the DTS that's already offered by Mercury in the Verado package (as an option)? This control system is very smooth and reassuring in it's "feel", however I also worry about fly by wire applications in a marine environment, just as I worry about the same applications (airbus) in airplanes. But it's the wave of the future. Even the saturn Vue has a digital steering system. |
| littleblue |
I'm not a fan of all this fly-by-wire stuff. In marine environments, it's the corrosion I'm worried about. All the cars I've driven w/ fly-by-wire don't feel quite right to me. You just lose some of that connection with the car. They are starting to put it in sportbikes too. God help them if their throttles act up mid-turn. |
| randyt |
I forgot to mention, the system includes fly-by-wire steering. |
| 20dauntless |
My car has a fly-by-wire throttle and brake system. The brake system has been subject to a lot of recalls, and is being phased out of all the new models. The throttle however has been trouble free, but it doesn't seem to feel the same as a normal gas pedal. I too think the idea has merit. Many of the diesel engines on big boats have electronic controls with mechanical backups. If you had to do that, there wouldn't be much of a point to the electric part. If someone could design it reliably it would be great. Sam |
| Shrdlu |
Mercury introduced drive by wire--throttle, shift, steer--in 2004 in its Verado line. |
| seahorse |
the new Yamaha F250 has partial "fly by wire" on its 4-stroke outboard. The throttle cable attaches to a potentiometer, which in turn tells the computer to set the stepper motor for the throttle plate opening. It still uses a mechanical cable from the control box to the motor. |
| randyt |
So, I must have missed the memo on the Verado. Does it work? |
| jimh |
Mercury has been offering Digital Throttle and Shift (DTS) on their Verado engines and on selected OptiMax models for about a year and a half. The DTS system uses a very nice top-mounted single-lever throttle and shift control. The feel of the control is very smooth. In the minute or two that I used it while underway this summer on a test of a Verado equipped 210 OUTRAGE, it seemed quite easy to operate. However, the boat dealer's representative who was at the helm as we brought the boat into its slip did seem to have trouble with the throttle. He gave the engine a bit too much throttle a couple of times. But I am sure one would get accustomed to the DTS controls after more time with them, and they'd be about as smooth as silk in the hands of an experienced pilot. The integration of the controls with the SmartCraft instrument system is quite nice, too. For example, if you hit the trim switch on the DTS controls, the gauge display automatically switches to show the TRIM readings for a few seconds, and then it reverts back to the prior display. Also, I believe that there are real advantages to the DTS controls with triple engine installations which can be controlled with just two throttle/shift levers. There is logic built into the system so that if the two throttle/shift levers are all in the same direction, the middle engine follows the outer two engines and runs at matching RPM. If the throttle/shift levers are in opposing directions, such as might occur when using differential engine thrust to maneuver around a dock at low speed, the middle engine goes into neutral and the shift levers only control the outer two engines. That is quite a nice system. It you have not heard of the DTS system prior to this, you must not have been reading much literature or press on recreational boating. The introduction of the Verado engine and its DTS controls was one of the must publicized events in recreational boating in years! I also had the chance this summer to spend about four hours underway and at the helm of a large motor yacht with twin diesel engines (1320-HP total) that were controlled by electronic throttle and shift. The system used there had a mode switch which allowed a single lever to control both engines. This was very handy once you left the dock. You could run the throttle on both engines with a single lever, and the engines' speed would be synchronized automatically. I was also aboard a State of Michigan Department of Natural Resources vessel with twin diesels (880-HP total) that were electronically controlled using a Kobelt Controls system. The actual levers seemed somewhat petite for control of such large engines! http://www.kobelt.com/electronics.html There is no question that electronic controls have arrived already and are in wide use in larger vessels. With the inclusion of electronic controls in the Verado, they have entered the outboard market. And based on the acceptance seen with Mercury's fine implementation, I am sure other outboard engine manufacturers will be adding electronic controls to their premium engines, too. |
| jimh |
On the larger, heavier, and more powerful Verado engines, Mercury has also added an electro-hydraulic steering system which uses a boost pump, much like power steering operates in a car. In the event of loss of electrical power to run the boost pump, the system still can be operated on hydraulic pressure alone, but the force required at the steering wheel is greatly increased. This does give the steering system fallback reliability in the event of failure of the electrical boost pump. |
| Peter |
I had an opportunity to play with a few DTS controls several weeks ago at the local boat show. I found that the controls didn't have enough friction to my liking. Can the friction level be adjusted? I assume it can but no one at the boat show was able to answer my question with any certainty. To the boater with twins, the controls do offer a nice auto-sync feature, but I suspect a significant reason for going to the fly-by-wire DTS system is really for the benefit of Brunswick in its boat manufacturing process as it should save rigging labor costs. Its much easier to run a flexible electrical or network cable than a semi-rigid mechanical cable. In theory, the electrical or network cable can be run anywhere such as under the gunnel or in a rigging tunnel. It should be less difficult to pull the network cable through a tunnel than a mechanical cable. The problem that I see with the fly-by-wire throttle and electro-hydraulic steering is it puts more eggs in the electrical system basket. If the alternator or a voltage regulator goes down, what happens to the DTS controls? Maybe the whole motor goes down when the alternator or voltage regulator is lost in any case so it doesn't matter? |
| randyt |
jimh, "It you have not heard of the DTS system prior to this, you must not have been reading much literature or press on recreational boating. The introduction of the Verado engine and its DTS controls was one of the must publicized events in recreational boating in years!" Your right! That's why I have been watching this website. It turns out, I can't be an expert in all things. Respectfully, Randy |
| jimh |
Peter--you make a good point: add too much reliance on electronics and you are turning the battery into the most important device on the boat. I have never heard any talk of electronically controlled or fly-by-wire steering on an outboard motor. That seems quite far out. Has anyone else? |
| captbone |
Trailer Boats had an article about 3-4 years ago about fly-by-wire steering on a 20ft boat with a single 150 Evinrude. Just from memory, I recall that they liked it but said that you could out steer the system in a series of fast turns of the wheel. That is the only article that I remember ever seeing about it. As far as fly-by-wire throttle and shifting, I have become a huge fan even though I was one of it is biggest opponents in the past. The DTS system from Mercury is great and teleflex has a system to fit any O/B. I do have to say that you will be spoiled if you try it and will never look at cable throttle/shift the same way. Mercury has put over 50,000 hours of testing on the DTS system and it very solid. Just my 2 cents. |
| pglein |
Having had the opportunity to use the electronic throttles a few times now, I have some observations. Note that this was not the Mercury system, but rather the system that has been universal on large diesels for several years now. I'm not sure who manufactures it, but the system is clearly used on most new pleasurecraft and a commercial pilot I spoke with said it's been common on commercial boats for even longer. There are a few drawbacks. First being feel. The throttle has very little resistance. I didn't see where you could adjust it, but I've got to think there's a way. The problem with this, is that it makes it difficult to make tiny adjustments to the speed. Some of the "feel" is lost. Realistically, the "feel" was largely a psychological thing anyway. The resistance has always been linear and related only to the cams on the carbeurator or fuel regualtor anyway. The other thing that gets most people with these throttles is the slight lag when you put it in gear. Those used to a conventional dual action - single lever system (common on outboards) will have trouble with these controls, since the shift seems to lag, but the trottle doesn't. This means that as you push the lever forward, you can throttle it up more than you meant to and then it will thrust into gear. I think this system needs a little work to feel natural. It's got to be a problem that can be solved with software. Regardless, it only takes a few minutes of driving the boat to get the hang of it. People use to seperate single-action levers for throttle and shifting will have a slightly harder time getting the hang of these. You have to shift it into gear, wait, and then hit the throttle. Still, you figure it out quick. The biggest hurdle that I'm going to have to deal with (that won't be much of a problem for most of you guys) is the way it works with dual stations. On traditional systems, when you were underway, and wanted to move from the pilothouse to the flybridge, you simply left it running and in gear and scrambled to next station before you could run into anything. From there, you could easily grab the controls and go. With this new system, you must bring the boat to idle, take it out of gear, and leave it there while you move positions. Then, at the new station, you can press a little button and activate the control. The major problem being that you can't simply take over control from any station. The nice thing about traditional controls is that anyone, from any station can instantly be in control of the boat. This is helpful if the captain is driving from below while guests are on the flybridge. If someone on the flybridge spots a log in your path that the captain does not, they can quickly cut the throttle and then alert the captain. With the electronic system, this is not possible. The tradoff, of course, is that it is easier to mount multiple steering stations. Our new boat, for example, has three stations with steering, throttle, and bow thruster controls. Routing wires instead of hydraulic lines and steel cables adds immense flexibility in this regard. As for corrosion resistance, I am not as concerned with this as others might be. These systems are, assumedly, built with waterproofness in mind. One assumes that they are at least as good at resisting this as a system of metal cables. As a matter of fact, wires are easier to repair at sea than cables. If something fails while you're under way, you would simply deal with it the same way you would on a traditional system, open up the engine and control it manually. I can't speak for gas engines, but I know that a diesel engine isn't going to quit just because the electronics fail. It would take an active signal from the system to trigger the fuel pressure release valve. Perhaps this is part of why these electronic systems are common place on diesel, but still new on gas engines. Regardless, I will have more to say about this in a couple months, after I've had some time to use the system in the real world. |
| pglein |
Used the electronic controls a bit more yesterday and I'm really warming up to them. When switching stations, the receiving station provides for a one second lag so you can put the throttle in the right position to avoid a major disruption to speed. Still, I think this would take a little getting used to. |
| LHG |
Mercury's DTS system was first introduced on the 2003 225HP Optimax. Now, you can also get it on the 200 Optimax. It is standard on all Verados. The other brands are going to HAVE to get some version of it, and Smartcraft, for the large engines if they are going to compete. Everything, gauges and controls, are incorporated into a single engine "plug and play" harness cable, very easy to rig. |
| jimh |
Automotive engines and applications are using many technologies which will be or in some cases are already in use on outboard motors. The GM SATURN Vue vehicle uses an electrically operated power steering system. This is similar to the electro-hydraulic steering on the Mercury VERADO in that the boost force comes from an electric motor instead of an engine-powered hydraulic pump. Many automotive engines are using throttle controls which are not mechanically linked. I think GM has a truck engine that operates with an electronic throttle. (Perhaps someone has the details about which engine and how it works.) I noted this recent competition for self-driven and self-sensing vehicles wherein the winning vehicle was a Volkswagen TOURAG which was developed by Volkswagen engineering to have all electronic controls for steering, braking, etc., in addition to engine controls. So perhaps fly-by-wire steering on vehicles will be coming, but it seems to be a long way away for application on a small boat. The electronic throttles are nice for multiple engines and multiple helm positions, but for a single engine on a small boat like a Boston Whaler, I do not see electronic controls as being compelling. Electronic instrumentation is just coming along, and even this is not a sure-fire hit with everyone yet. As for simplification of the rigging, it seems that generally there is still an engine harness to connect to the ignition controls and warning buzzers. I am sure the installation of the DTS controls is probably not a big time saver compared to a single engine installation of traditional mechanical controls. |
| pglein |
I would imagine that there is a marginal savings in the labor to rig a boat, especially on the bigger ones. However, I think the real savings is in the actual rigging equipment. There is already a wiring harness that connects to the controls for ignition. Having the throttle and shifter go through that same bundle of wires, is much cheaper than running cables. Still, in the big picture, I think the reason for this is that the engine manufacturers prefer it. One of the major benefits to this kind of system is in the availability of engine performance information. On the boat we just purchased, instead of an instrument cluster, we have a unit about the size of a depth sounder that reports engine information, It tells you just about everything you could ever want to know about the engine: rpm, fuel consumption, boost pressure, temperature in about 5 different locations (including two in the transmission), shaft revolutions, engine "load", manifold pressure, oil pressure, oil viscosity...the list goes on. I really couldn't believe all the different variables. Plus, it provides graphs of all this stuff so you can watch how it's changed over time. Just amazing. Probably really expensive, but really cool. |
| Peter |
I'm willing to bet that data cables and the electronic throttle and shift controls are much cheaper to make than mechanical cables but the outboard manufacturer will charge just as much for them if not more. It's all about cost cutting and margin improvement. I recently read about how one can disengage the shift and throttle on a DTS equipped Mercury outboard in the event that "power" to the DTS system and there is a need to control the engine. While the report is made to sound like its a non-event when the "power" is lost, what concerns me is what happens when the "power" is suddenly lost while underway or docking because we all know that Murphy's law is always lurking and usually strikes at those more inconvenient times. Unlike mechanical systems, electrical system components like an electrical cable for communicating throttle or shift position data to a receiving element such as a stepper motor, usually provide no advanced warning or feedback that something is starting to go wrong or needs attention. It can be working perfectly one moment and the next moment not working at all. Mechanical cables, on the other hand, usually give plenty of advanced warning that things are not quite right before they outright fail. They also can tell us when something isn't quite right on the motor's side of the ledger. In the "wire" of the fly by wire system, best I can tell is that all of that information is lost or essentially "filtered out". |
| TightlinesPE |
I have about 130 hours on a pair of Verado 250's on a 320 Outrage. The DTS system was different at first, but after some practice, it really makes docking a breeze. Since I dock mostly with throttles only, shifting is easy and effortless along with adding throttle to whichever motor. While working out the 'kinks' as usual in a new boat, I did have a DTS problem. The problem occurred from a loose battery connection, thus, not giving the system the supply of power it wanted. The motors starting throttling up 1000 RPMs and back down real quick and did it sporadically and unexpectedly with alarms going off everywhere. They are very sensitive on power. Now, the only problem I have with shifting motors is that I am so spoiled with DTS, the shifting of OptiMax motors seems impossible when I captain friends' boats. I find the DTS system to be a huge factor in my success of handling the boat close quarters. The motors shift so quickly and effortlessly, I can make a move very quickly instead of fighting with a cable throttle. The power steering system is almost like the steering wheel in your car. You only hear a slight whine when you turn the wheel, indicating the power steering pump's activity. This makes it just really easy to steer while underway. At the dock, if the steering wheel is needed to assist me to dock, it is easy to use as well. It is nice for the captain to turn his back to the wheel and watch the spread as he drives with his back...it's very easy and helpful. The DTS system is probably the most notable and favorite part of my Verado 'system'. |
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