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Whaler Dealer Ghost Town
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Whaler Dealer Ghost Town
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| Author | Topic: Whaler Dealer Ghost Town |
| swist |
posted 11-17-2008 08:00 AM ET (US)  
I had occasion to stop at the parts department of my local Whaler dealer, which is an enormous facility (Russo Marine in Medford, MA) claiming to be the largest powerboat dealer in New England. I was the only customer in the whole place (and it is the size of a small boat show convention hall). The salesmen were all sitting in their offices alone, fiddling with their computers. Yeah I know it's November, but that place usually has at least some traffic in it year-round. Looking through the 2009 Whaler lineup, I was floored by the prices! As many other threads here attest to, things are pretty slow out there, so why are all these boats at list price, for example $30,000 for a 170 Montauk, $39,000 for a 190. And why aren't the salespeople making some attempt to sell them? I spent plenty of time nosing around, looking interested (I'm not, I just like to look). Don't businesses drop prices and sell more agressively during tough times? Sure didn't look that way. |
| glen e |
posted 11-17-2008 08:13 AM ET (US)
the general process for boats, cars or any big retail item is to leave the stickers at MSRP and then drop the price in the booth behind closed doors in negotiation. No. it's not the CW way, but you never know when you might get an arab sheik walk in and pay sticker. No use giving it away at the outset. However in today's market, any inquiry usually has the sales guy dropping the price as soon as he opens his mouth. The Ft Laud show was showing discounts of 25% off MSRP stickers upon inquiry.... |
| wezie |
posted 11-17-2008 08:20 AM ET (US)
They can't afford to give them away, no matter what everyone might think. Bills still have to be paid. Seems that the sales folk knew that you were just kicking along, or thought they did. They should have greeted you and engaged you in conversation in order to make sure your needs were being met. That is just good and proper business. I can guarantee that you would be Greeted in the Austin Boston Whaler dealership. That is just the way they work. |
| SC Joe |
posted 11-17-2008 08:42 AM ET (US)
Funny--as bad as I keep hearing car sales are, I've tried twice in the last two weeks to purchase a used car. no trade, outright "cash" sales (as if it matters), and both times neither dealer was willing to move but a few hundred off the price, and let me walk. They must have had someone in line behind me I guess. Apparently things aren't bad enough yet. |
| ryanwhaler |
posted 11-17-2008 08:54 AM ET (US)
car sales people don't have the freedom to reduce prices as much as everyone thinks... I spend 60hours a week in a decent sized honda dealership. As bad as sales people can treat potental buyers sometimes,,, they take some abuse themselfs from people who come in and demend things, and walk due to a few hundred bucks because there sales maniger won't allow anything to go out the door unless he makes x amount on it. Just because times are tough doesnt mean dealers are going to sell cars or boats for little to no profit. |
| SC Joe |
posted 11-17-2008 08:57 AM ET (US)
Well, I guess it comes down to whether they need to sell a car worse than I need to buy one. |
| Buckda |
posted 11-17-2008 09:09 AM ET (US)
SC Joe - The same is true for bank owned houses. I have offered a bank 10% less than ask for a specific foreclosed property at least three times now - each time, the asset manager digs in his/her heels and the other side of the bank then lowers the price another 5K. I've been working this property since September and it has come down 25% from my original offer...and still no marriage. Guess it just wasn't meant to be. My credit score is good and this property is well within my means (about 35% of what I am approved for - which means it's right about where I should be...I'm approved for crazy numbers). Times are tough, but lots of folks aren't helping themselves out any. No worries - I'll keep on renting and save for an even larger down payment... |
| Murphy |
posted 11-17-2008 03:11 PM ET (US)
I had a similar experience on a Chevy lot last week. They wouldn't budge off the price at all- and I was the only customer on the lot. Selling cars is like any other business...you can't pay the bills if you don't make sales. The economy was the straw that broke the back of Bill Heard http://jalopnik.com/5056225/exclusive-inside-the-fall-of-bill-heard-chevrolet-the-worlds-largest-chevy-dealership Heard had other problems before the economy, but who would have thought the world's largest Chevy dealer could go out of business? RM |
| Murphy |
posted 11-17-2008 03:11 PM ET (US)
http:/ / jalopnik. com/ 5056225/ exclusive-inside-the-fall-of-bill-heard -chevrolet-the-worlds-largest-chevy-dealership |
| swist |
posted 11-17-2008 06:52 PM ET (US)
Cars are known to have a relatively small markup between wholesale and MSRP, they make it up in volume, dealer-installed add-ons, parts, service, and extended service contracts. When an auto dealer walks away over $200, that could well mean the difference between making or losing money on the car. Boat manufacturers are pretty good at keeping their wholesale prices to themselves, but I suspect there's a lot more markup on a boat, if for no other reason than lower volume. |
| David Pendleton |
posted 11-17-2008 08:12 PM ET (US)
quote: Define "relatively". The difference between MSRP and wholesale on my truck in 2003 was five figures; and the first number was a two. I think what you may be referring to is dealer "holdback". In my case it was 4% of wholesale. |
| glen e |
posted 11-17-2008 08:31 PM ET (US)
No, swist I'm sure is comparing cars to boats. Cars have anywhere from 7-12%, that includes the "holdback" or "added value premiums". Boats are at 30% - maybe a bit more. |
| A2J15Sport |
posted 11-18-2008 01:52 PM ET (US)
David, There is no-way a Domestic maker had a five figure spread between MSRP and invoice. Especially starting with a "2". Im can see that spread on an import but NOT domestic. Take note. There is a difference between the "Mulroney" and the "add on" sticker. |
| boatman1 |
posted 11-19-2008 08:57 PM ET (US)
I have not posted here in a awhile. Today I lost my job. I was the one preaching buy American, Mercury, Dodge etc..and running into alot of flack about it. I wanted to say 1 final word on this. Are you happy now? Everything is going to c%$& and as I said before, get ready for a new world without any American products to bash. You will be able to choose from Honda, Yamaha and I think the cannucks up north might be dropping out soon with their Evinrudes and we will be pulling them around with Honda and Toyota pickups. When our grandchildren and great grandchildren are growing up we can answer them when they ask, What is a Ford? with a nice story of how it was. I have this to add to it, there is 2 sides to every story and I am not all pleased with my understanding of how GM and Brunswick run their companies, but like I said we probably won't have to worry about that anymore. It is truly a shame, so get used to looking at those ghost town boatstores and take lots of pictures...... |
| Dan |
posted 11-19-2008 09:10 PM ET (US)
boatman, sorry to hear about your job loss. I hope our government helps the car companies. I think with some help, the car companies can survive. Other countries help their industries, we can too. Plus, as the current cars age, people will need new ones -- of course. |
| AllanR |
posted 11-19-2008 11:37 PM ET (US)
Boatman I feel your pain. I also have lost jobs in my life, some of which I loved to do. Unfortunately unless you have been there, it is difficult to understand how tough it can be, especially if you have a family and small children to support. Many in this country are or will be going through the same thing, as the economy worsens. The boat industry is changing fundamentally. People are just not thinking much of boats when their jobs are being lost or are threatened. It is likely to be even a worse effect than the high gas prices of summer. But, I would like to offer you some encouragement. Each time I lost a job, I was able to recover and find something else. Often it was better than the previous situation. I hope that this happens for you. |
| Feejer |
posted 11-20-2008 09:48 AM ET (US)
Before asking for a bail-out -- the CEO's and upper management should freeze their monthly income for a year or no payment be made to them if we have to bail them out. They refused to re-tool for better preforming gas models or go green like we individual taxpayers are asked to do -- so WHY should we pay for their greed! It's time for the public to say NO to the greed! We the track performance of the big 3, handing them a bailout would be like putting a tourniquet on a corpse |
| BlueMax |
posted 11-20-2008 10:15 AM ET (US)
This might tell a bit of the story as to why the AMERICAN auto makers are in a bit of a "tight spot" (and remember - the Union has most recently again refused to renegotiate to keep the companies solvent so that their members can have jobs) From http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf Competitive Labor Cost Comparison DaimlerChrysler $75.86 Ford $70.51 General Motors $73.26
*Honda $42.95 *Nissan $41.97 *Toyota $47.60 *Memo: DaimlerChrysler estimates
While the argument is valid that the company agreed to these contracts one must also look at the gun that was put to their heads over time - whole industries (suppliers, assembly lines etc) shut down by walk-outs or threats of walk outs for more-more-more. I think (in my financially uneducated mind) that the company can even afford to bump wages up $10/hr if they can reduce burden for the amount of health care and retirement plans. This would put more cash in the worker's pocket for food on the table and picking up costs to contribute to their own health plans and retirements. Why can't the Union as a large and powerful bloc, negotiate for Union Health care for members to reduce company burden to the workers? You get a couple of these Unions together and your talking millions of employees for the pool to reduce overall individual costs of benefits. (just a thought on my part). I'm not Union bashing - but I think they can show a little flexibility and responsibility in this mess as well. I believe they have a stranglehold on some of these industries and they refuse to loosen their grip to allow their host to breathe (yep - I just equated them to parasites). How about cutting back on the Union dues, or the Bosses parties in Aruba/Miami/Vegas to help the "poor" working slug as well...? I was in a union back in the mid-80's, $26 or $28 a weekly paycheck in dues. I got my choice of a nice sized Turkey or Spiraled Ham every Thanksgiving and Christmas (We got a free voucher for the local Shop Rite). Nice, but for approx $1,350 a year, that's two pretty expensive meals. I'll admit though, my Aunt and sister-in-law loved it. We would get a Turkey for T'day out on Long Island with my Aunt and my sis-in-law would get a Ham for Xmas dinner with her family - every year. As I said, nice, but expensive when you realize what was paid in during the course of the year. Shoot, they could have made the dues $13-$14 a week and forgone the meats (and the Bosses bi-annual parties in A.C. that we workers were not invited to). Just saying the Unions have got to have some give as well. |
| Feejer |
posted 11-20-2008 11:57 AM ET (US)
The unions have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. Here's a 1st hand example. I've been with my printing company for almost 18 years. I make a little over 44 dollars an hour. We are non- unions. I know a few guys who worked for union shops who made 5-7 dollars an hour more than me. They boasted about how they loved the unions and all the perks. They don't have jobs anymore, most of the union shops have closed up and gone away. They could not compete. My company on the other hand is thriving. My company, myself and everyone who works for us are making a pretty nice living. Last year we had an addition put on one of our buildings. We hired a non union construction company to do the work. They guys were making 35-38 dollars an hour. The local union came to picket, 10 freaking weeks these guys were out there all day long. The one guy from the union told me he makes about 50 dollars an hour, in the same breath he said he has not worked in 11 months. |
| hauptjm |
posted 11-20-2008 12:07 PM ET (US)
Not ever being a union man or coming from a union family, I often wonder why all States are not like Louisiana (and others): a "right-to-work" State? In a right-to-work state, the employee has the right to decline membership in the union of their employer (if one exist). Now, in doing so, said employee is neither bound or represented by the union. If union wages increase, the non-union employee receives no benefit of the union negotiations. They're effectively, on their own. But, it's up to the employee. This way, if an employee doesn't see a value added from membership, or doesn't agree with the political direction of that particular union, then the employee is not forced to participate. This just seems like freedom of choice for the employee. How many other States have this choice? |
| Tohsgib |
posted 11-20-2008 12:24 PM ET (US)
Florida is another. Unions made this country what it is over the last 150 years or so. Unions are making this country what it is over the last 20 years or so. As far as the car makers go, they will remain in business. It would have helped if the CEO's did not fly to DC yesterday in their private jets to beg for a bailout...which was denied. |
| Whaler_bob |
posted 11-20-2008 01:01 PM ET (US)
Boatman... I too feel for you, hope you find something better. Many here on CW and around the country may be very nervous about their individual jobs or like in my case- concerned about the small business I work for. It's been a trying year for us, and so far we've kept our heads above water by being very thrifty- but we are all painfully aware of the possibility that it could all come crashing down at any time if things continue to get worse. Same goes for Brunswick... $39,000 for a 190? Time to wake up now guys or go the way of GM/Ford. |
| Mumbo Jumbo |
posted 11-20-2008 04:40 PM ET (US)
Whaler_bob- After my second outrageous experience with Chevrolet, in 1985 I vowed never to buy another GM product. Since then I have bought Nissan, Toyota, and Mercedes automobiles, and they all have been everything that I could have asked for. During that time, I witnessed the the unending parade of gas-guzzling garbage coming out of Detroit. All the flag waving in the world will not convince me that my my tax dollars should be wasted on the incompetent Big Three. If the Big Three go under, people will continue to buy autos made by companies who were not arrogant and incompetent. |
| dscew |
posted 11-20-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)
And what happens to the three million jobs that will go away? I agree that we've had poor quality products over the years, but recently they've been much better--I had a '94 S10 Blazer that I sold for $1,000 when it had 270,000 miles without even a valve job--still ran great. That said, the fat cat CEOs signed those labor contracts just to keep the factories running until they could get their golden parachutes; they couldn't care less what happened after they left, and they knew this unsustainable. They should be hunted down and have their Sea Rays taken away. The unions should re-negotiate their existing contracts to a position which would keep the companies (and their jobs) solvent while they re-tool for the future and sell us reliable cars that get 50 mpg or run on electricity. Lower wage, yes. But they'd be working and still making a damn good living. My family has a Saturn, a Town and Country, and a Geo Prism. All really good cars (I know the Prism is a Toyota, but what's a guy gonna do?). |
| hauptjm |
posted 11-20-2008 05:09 PM ET (US)
A little search told me that 22 States are right-to-work States. I'm surprised there was not more versus forced unionism. I also saw a little hypocracy regarding the folks that are pushing for stripping secret ballots from the process: Practice What You Preach, You Hypocrite The race itself remains a tough one to call. “I’m not even sure the candidates know,” said Washington Rep. Jay Inslee, a Waxman supporter. And most lawmakers dread picking sides. Asked who she would be supporting, Rules Chairwoman Louise McIntosh Slaughter of New York exclaimed, “Oh, it’s a secret ballot, thank the Lord.”
National Right to Work, Legal Defense Foundation Wow! Can anyone give me a valid reason to make the voting process anything but secret. Someone's on the take on this one! |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-20-2008 05:33 PM ET (US)
boatman- I also feel for you. Hang in there! My brothers firm folded 2 weeks ago after 34 years in business. They put in for unemployment. Of course they paid into it for 34years without collecting so they have every right to collect a little back until they get back on their feet. I will always make sure my family is alright. Those that don't try to buy American when they can are not |
| Mumbo Jumbo |
posted 11-20-2008 07:56 PM ET (US)
fourdfish- Your words: "Those that don't try to buy American when they can are not You are unqualified to pass judgment on the patriotism of others on this forum. It's dolts like you that stain the moral fabric of this nation. You need join a fascist organization so you can fully enjoy the benefits of your twisted, jingoistic sickness. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-20-2008 08:36 PM ET (US)
A fools words! I did not post your name. I served this country for 6 years. You |
| Mumbo Jumbo |
posted 11-20-2008 10:21 PM ET (US)
Heil! |
| dscew |
posted 11-20-2008 10:43 PM ET (US)
Heil yourself. Take your Mercedes to the Autobahn and stay there. Might do something for your low self-esteem. |
| Mumbo Jumbo |
posted 11-21-2008 12:10 AM ET (US)
dscew- My flag is bigger than your flag. Go back to sleep. |
| dscew |
posted 11-21-2008 03:56 AM ET (US)
I don't think so, Tim. Be careful, or that big flag of yours might soon be made in China. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-21-2008 07:41 AM ET (US)
Wait a minute! You said you didn't care for the flag so why would you own one! |
| Mumbo Jumbo |
posted 11-21-2008 10:58 AM ET (US)
I apologize to members of this forum for my two most recent posts. They were childish and added nothing to the discussion. I stand by my other comments. |
| Tohsgib |
posted 11-21-2008 11:06 AM ET (US)
Harley Ableson almost went under and Reagan bailed them out. Do you guys really think they will let 3 illion jobs go away? How can one buy an American product if they are looking for a quality car like a Mercedes? If anyone here believes that a Cadillac is as good or better than a Mercedes Benz, you are obviously on crack. Why should I move to Germany just because I want a superior automobile? Why is it that Mercedes is the only company to offer us diesels? Maybe if an American company made a nice diesl car or SUV I would buy one. Well Jeep did for 2 years and I own a wonderfull little diesel Liberty(with a Mercedes drivetrain). When it needs to be replaced, I hope I have some domestic options. |
| frontier |
posted 11-21-2008 11:37 AM ET (US)
Nick - I would guess you are talking about older Mercedes Benz cars when you say a 'Quality car like Mercedes'. Mercedes quality rating over the last 5-7 years is horrible. Predicted reliability scores (Consumer Reports-April 2008) shows Mercedes Benz 33rd in quality out of 36 car brands. #1-Honda |
| gnr |
posted 11-21-2008 12:04 PM ET (US)
1998-99 Ford Motor Company produces a large quantity of F150's with 5.4 liter engines on which the blocks were incorrectly machined leading to head gasket leaks typically at around 20k miles. (from their Windsor Ontario CANADA plant btw) Due to the relatively new age of internet communication the problem becomes widely known and the extent verified. Ford refuses to acknowledge the problem. It is only through intensive badgering up the chain of "customer service" do most owners get any satisfaction and then it is usually the installation of an "improved" head gasket (why improve a part to fix a problem that "doesn't exist"? The improved head gasket turns out to be a band aid to get the vehicle past the typical 30k warranty period and around 40k the leak returns. I owned one of these vehicles. More recently it comes to Toyota's attention that there is corrosion problem with the frames on their pickup trucks. They offer to buy back EVERY TRUCK that fails to pass and inspection at a price that many of these older trucks would never get on the open market. I know two people who sold their trucks back to Toyota only after receiving notice from Toyota that there may be a problem. The American auto makers have no one to blame but themselves. I am positive that the vast majority of folks who drive foreign made vehicles didn't start out saying "I'm going to buy a foreign vehicle because I hate America and American automobile companies". More likely they based their purchasing decision on value, how the product meets their needs, reviews and personal experience. If the American automakers were producing a product of comparable quality that they could offer at a comparable value with comparable features and would deal with their customers with a comparable level of accountability then they would sell a comparable number of vehicles. I would go out on a limb and say they would even get much more of the patriots dollar because, all things being equal, people would by American first. Consumers are not going to subsidize an industry that operates with a MUCH higher labor rate then their competitors, has earned a reputation for not caring about their customers once the deal is done and has seemingly ignored every shot across their bow since the early 70's. And they shouldn't.
Variety of American made firearms including Colt, Remington, Winchester, Browning, Thompson Center and Keltec. |
| boatman1 |
posted 11-21-2008 12:44 PM ET (US)
thanks for the comments, I have a stiff upper lip, and I am sure the next adventure will be better then the last. Brunswick's leader has no clue as to what really is going on and it surly will have a impact down the line, the writing is on the wall , and I will leave it at that. Mumbo Jumbo I dont know you nor am I in a position to judge, but because of the red white and blue, I can comment. You have made several poor comments about America and its products and the "heil " comment was over the top. Even though you apoligized, that is almost unforgiving. Before you reply, pickup the movie Twlight Zone the movie from 1983. Watch the 1 of 4 episodes "A Quality of Mercy" in fact I will send it to you , no charge if you like. Hopfully you will really think about your comments after that. Lastly I really hope this climate does shake up ALL of these big corporations and truly brings a change to how things are done in this country. It is time. But continue to think about everything you buy, from what gas station (IE: Citgo,a Venzuela Co , with a country's leadership who does not like America), you go to. I go out of my way to find a Arco, BP or Sunoco station and on down the list with everything I buy. GOD BLESS AMERICA |
| L H G |
posted 11-21-2008 12:52 PM ET (US)
I'm not on crack, nor on beer. As far as I am concerned, the Mercedes are way overpriced and undervalued for what you get, snob appeal to a certain group of people. Show me any Mercedes or Toyota/Lexus passenger car, for that matter, that will tow this beast around for seventeen years, over 100,000 miles towed, now with 125,000 miles on her and still going strong. (see third photo) http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage01.html . Every place I go with this Caddy, it gets admired as an American classic, along with continual offers to take her off my hands. And, I always get the question "You tow THAT with THAT?" the answer: "Then that's one impressive car." Yup, thank you. We don't design them like we used to, and that is exactly the problem. I'm heading up to Door County Wi in a few hours, to bring my newfound 1975 Outrage 19 back here for the winter. I won't even know it's behind me at 65 MPH with this Caddy. PS: I recently sold this car's twin, a white '92 Brougham (last year of this classic model), also used extensively for towing the 25 and smaller boats, with 183,000 miles on it, and going strong. The buyer: a 45ish German couple just arrived over here from GERMANY, of all places. The guy really wanted one of these American classics and bought it on the spot, no price haggling. The car they showed up in to buy it: a BMW they had shipped over. |
| WT |
posted 11-21-2008 01:28 PM ET (US)
I agree that Mercedes are overpriced today. Who's going to pay $90,000 for a sedan in today's environment? They don't make them like they used to. I bought my new 1986 Mercedes diesel and I have driven her 420,000 miles. Same original motor but I'm on my second transmission. 26 miles per gallon for a large sedan isn't too bad. Warren |
| dscew |
posted 11-21-2008 01:33 PM ET (US)
My 94 S10 Blazer with 270K on it towed my pig 23 Sea Ray Cuddy on a tandem axle trailer all over the place without complaining or breaking down. It did much more than it was designed for. I'm told that the Mopar SUVs are just as good. We do have good cars now. I have NO sympathy for the Detroit CEOs, who have now cancelled their leases on their corporate jets (a little late). Mercedes is crap now compared to what they were, that's why that heil comment and bragging about Mercedes got my hackles up. No matter where the blame lies in the auto industry (both management and labor have their shares here), we can't let 3 million jobs go away. Redesign, renegotiate, get these folks working for a living wage and get on with it IN THIS COUNTRY. Boatman, I wasn't aware of the Citgo connection. No more for me either. |
| Tohsgib |
posted 11-21-2008 01:42 PM ET (US)
I've owned just about every make and brand out there. I have owned 5 Caddys and 4 Benzos and no they do not compare. I alos believe the newer MB's are not what the older ones were. This is also why a my 560 cost over $70k in 1989 when new, today that would be about $150k so they cutback someplace to compete obviously. I still have a Cherry 1987 560Sl that is just an awesome automobile but again was $64k in 1987 so a very fine crafted car it is. I used to tow my Montauk with my 560SEC and I towed my Hydra-Sports from NJ to FL with my ML320 so yes they CAN tow. Just for the record I own 2 american cars and 2 foreign. This was one of my favorites and my parents still own it today. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/BiggieFL/Newtauk/379f.jpg |
| Tohsgib |
posted 11-21-2008 01:44 PM ET (US)
So there ya go...American car, American trailer, American Boat, and an American brand engine that was made in Japan. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-21-2008 05:04 PM ET (US)
Larry--I know you think I'm always trying to bust your bubble I also know your proud of your cars, BUT both of those Cadillacs are not considered valuable Classics yet. If you don't believe me check E-BAY. Worth around $3000! Keep it for another 15years! Now my son's 1965 fully restored Corvette- That is a classic! |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-21-2008 05:08 PM ET (US)
Nick --Was that picture taken up on the ramp down from Crystal River? |
| Tohsgib |
posted 11-24-2008 11:24 AM ET (US)
MacRae's in Homomyassa. |
| A2J15Sport |
posted 11-24-2008 02:36 PM ET (US)
If I were a Whaler dealer, I would cringe at many CW members coming in my door. Why? 1. Many CW members have no clue what it takes to run a business and supply---SUPPORT. (parts/service). From what I've read, most are professional people that feel that they are "owed" because of their "brilliance". 2. They want something for nothing. 3. Profit is a BAD word and concept. |
| dscew |
posted 11-24-2008 03:12 PM ET (US)
Wow. I wonder where you get your information on the CW population. I really don't think there are many here who expect something for nothing, think they're owed something, or think profit is a bad word. Also, "brilliance" is a subjective term, and some/many here ARE "brilliant" when it comes to all things Whaler. I'm not so sure that, if surveyed, many would generally set themselves on that pedestal. I'd bet that there are more than a few business owners here. For myself, I've always believed in a day's pay for a day's work, and that would apply to a Whaler dealer earning his/her money just as I do (some do, and some don't). Many on this forum have to watch their spending, and they look for good deals; that doesn't mean they're looking for freebies any more than the rest of the population. |
| Kelry |
posted 11-24-2008 03:29 PM ET (US)
I don't think my Whaler dealer cringed when I walked through the door and bought a new boat last year. Rather, I would say he was quite pleased to see me. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-24-2008 04:54 PM ET (US)
Nick--I thought I recognized it, just didn't remember which one! CRS has set in! dscew--Go back and look at the lists of members, maybe you |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-24-2008 04:56 PM ET (US)
I'm sorry, that was for A2J not dscew who obviously has his hand on the pulse of both CW and the nation as a whole! |
| Whalerdog |
posted 11-24-2008 06:29 PM ET (US)
Mumbo Joumbo After my second outrageous experience with Chevrolet, in 1985 I vowed never to buy another GM product. Since then I have bought Nissan, Toyota, and Mercedes automobiles, and they all have been everything that I could have asked for. During that time, I witnessed the the unending parade of gas-guzzling garbage coming out of Detroit. All the flag waving in the world will not convince me that my my tax dollars should be wasted on the incompetent Big Three. If the Big Three go under, people will continue to buy autos made by companies who were not arrogant and incompetent. You mean the market that most or many of the Japanese manufacturers were trying to break into? You mean Toyota who has 90,000 Tundra on lots in America and now they are thinking of exporting from this country because they can't sell them? They all wanted into the high profit truck and SUV market. Sad if you think the products made here now are not better than 1985. With it taking between 22-29 man hours to produce most cars the labor cost difference is how much? 6-8% of the cost of a car is labor. With Japan manipulating their currency they have a avrage advantage of $4,000 per vehicle. If we trat the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese like they treated us on trade they would be no where. They have closed their markets to hundreds if not thousands of our products from cars to rice. Is that fair trade? With new hires at GM getting half wages and little benefits by next year they will have about the same labor cost as Japanese transplants. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-24-2008 06:54 PM ET (US)
Whalerdog--I spent two years in Japan. I found that the Japanese, who are a very nice people are very protective of their market. I know things have changed somewhat since then but many |
| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 11-24-2008 06:57 PM ET (US)
I got a letter today from the Outboard Motor Shop, my Whaler Dealer, the only one in the SF Bay Area, I think the only one in Northern California. I was worried that it was a "we're folding our tents" letter, but no, it was an offer of discount servicing, and stating that as some of the other brands' dealers go away, they are taking over the position as the "servicing dealer" for the other brands. Good news, guess. LHG: my experience with Detroit Iron has not been generally
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| Buckda |
posted 11-24-2008 07:42 PM ET (US)
I am knocking on some serious wood...because we've not had major problems with any American car since the 80's (when I can remember)....except for a 197X Plymouth that my dad said was junk - the list goes like this: 1977 Olds 88 - sold with 200K (Dad's car) 1983 Olds Cutlass Ciera Diesel - sold with 96K (Dad's) 1982 GMC Suburban Diesel (Dad's) 1983 Toyota Celica GT - great car - sold with 230K and going strong (mine) 1985 Buick Riviera - sold with 130K (dad's) 1985 Toyota Celica GTS - sold with close to 300K (mine) 1989 GMC Jimmy - sold with 22K - dad didn't like the bumpy ride (Dad's) 1987 GMC Suburban Diesel (dad's) 1990 Olds Cutlass Supreme (dad's) 1992 Honda Civic LX - sold to my brother with 90K, he sold it with 320K and still sees it around town. (Mine) 1993 Dodge Intrepid (Mom's) 1992 GMC Sonoma ST pickup (dad's) 1992 Lexus SC400 (Expensive repairs) (dad's) 1993 Chrysler "old man mobile" - can't remember model(dad's) 1997 Chevrolet S-10 - sold with 185K (mine) 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee (dad's) 2002 Ford Explorer - sold with 150K - Rear axle failure due to towing (mine) 2002 GMC Yukon XL - still owned (dad's) 2007 Ford F-150 - currently has 51K (mine) 1997 Honda Civic EX sold to my aunt...has at least 200K and going strong (mom's) 2002 Saturn Vue (90K and still solid) (mom's) All had similar repair needs. Regular fluid changes at prescribed intervals and standard maintenance like brakes, tires, etc. From my perspective, Detroit has been putting out pretty good vehicles of good value if you're buying based on consumer reports rankings and not by "what's hot right now"...and you drive it for a good amount of time/mileage. I don't blame folks who buy imports, but I do blame people for not taking care of their car and then calling it a piece of junk when it breaks. I also do blame people for saying "Detroit was dumb for selling SUV's" when the American consumer asked for, yea, DEMANDED them. In fact, leaving church on Sunday, my F150 went face to face with a HUGE Toyota SUV (Sequoia). The imports were playing that game too - they just came late to the party and happened to be fortunate to be so late in developing large vehicles. Look at the big Toyota's and Nissan Titan, Armada, etc. The American cos were dominant in the SUV market and the imports dominant in the smaller cars - they just happened to be positioned perfect for these conditions. All that said - do I think we should bail out the big 3? Not really, although I'm pretty steamed now that we just bailed out CitiGroup...what the hell, My kids will probably just declare the US Bankrupt when I'm an old man anyway - let's give every man woman and child a free La-Z-Boy recliner and flat screen TV so at least we can watch the fall of our wealth and greatness in High Def. We can do better. We must do better. Hang in there guys. |
| elaelap |
posted 11-24-2008 08:23 PM ET (US)
Psssssst...don't tell anyone, but if we're lucky we're in the midst of the death throes of the carbon based economy. Think about it, petroleum has only been around for about 160 years, first refined as kerosene for lamps and then as fuels of various kinds for the internal combustion engine. Now it's time to say bye-bye baby. If the new administration only has the brains and guts to throw tons of money toward research and development of alternative fuels and vastly improved public transportation, we MAY see a booming economy, lots of new jobs at all levels, new entrepreneurial possibilities, less greenhouse gas emissions, and a healthier, cleaner environment. Oh yeah, no more blood for oil would be kinda nice as well... Tony |
| A2J15Sport |
posted 11-24-2008 08:31 PM ET (US)
Whalerdog, Experiences are just that-experiences. My last experience with Mercedes (2001-ML) left a really bad taste in my mouth. No more German cars and their "attitude". Same goes for Honda (2002 Honda outboard). As far as a "Carbon Based" society, so goes the world. Name a country that isn't. We're not in a position to abandon what works for something that may not. Work toward it-YES, not abandon it. As long as we want to talk green, I bring up an old argument. WHAT ABOUT JET AIRPLANES? The dirtiest vehicles on the planet. |
| L H G |
posted 11-24-2008 08:34 PM ET (US)
The Citi 45 billion bailout had to be done, and done immediately. Our largest bank was in immediate danger of collapse, and I don't think most reading here have any idea of how that would affect you personally. It would not be good, and the government would have had to pay the depositors anyway, probably months later. What do you do in the meantime? Most people have no idea what the term "bailout" really means. It means keeping the "system" that ALL of us rely upon daily, working. Things we just take for granted would not happen. Forget the "wealthy" stockholders who have already taken a bath (which might include your own 401K). They deserved it. Without this bailout, it means if you use Citi for your savings and checking, when you showed up at the branch, it would be closed and you couldn't get to your money. the guy who rents them space couldn't collect the rent. The advertizing guy would get fired. Employees would not be working, because they would not be getting paid. You would be told "We loaned the money in your savings account to Joe Schmoe for a mortgage, and he just declared bankruptcy and is not paying us back, so your money is gone. You'd be real mad at Joe Schmoe. Nobody would accept your Citi check nor your Citi Mastercard. Other people would run to their banks, and maybe force the same thing there. You guys with your foreign cars. If you think the auto makers should get what they deserve (collapse) because of the crap you think they've put out and the jets they fly in, think again before you shoot yourselves in the foot. You'll pay just as much as the rest of us. And next time, you might consider buying one, or even have to buy one. |
| lizard |
posted 11-24-2008 09:55 PM ET (US)
I am both encouraged and surprised that these. essentially, tangential comments, to boating and Whalers, is allowed to run here. That said, I think that the conversations are very important ones, irrespective of your political alliance or finger pointing tendency. To me, this is how we, as a community, albeit a Whaler one, bring about important change. As an example, Ethanol is important to the moderator, and many other people. Our economy is another. The concept of buying a traditionally American (owned and or made) is another. The value of a great Toyota product another. It is at this level, that change is motivated. Ground level, American roots level, union level, boating enthusiast level, dealer level, etc. |
| L H G |
posted 11-24-2008 10:58 PM ET (US)
More on CitiCorp and why it had to be done: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081124/treasury_citi_analysis.html . |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-24-2008 11:48 PM ET (US)
Larry is correct in that Citi Group had to be "bailed out" as the government would still be responsible. However, those officers and CEO's are basically responsible and should be shown the door. Take a look at Bank of America, their CEO has a regular contract with no golden parachute. They decided early on that they were never going to offer the ARM's Face it someone is responsible at the top. For CEO's to collect big money for the fiasco is criminal. The CEO's and henchmen at the big 3 are also responsible for their mess and they should not be living the big life in front of everyone as the ship goes down. The Unions have shot themselves in the foot and bankruptcy is the only way to get rid of those Union contracts. |
| TransAm |
posted 11-25-2008 07:50 AM ET (US)
quote: This statement is factually incorrect. While I cannot comment on the CEO's contract, as I have no first and knowledge or have yet to read his contact, Bank of America indeed offered and underwrote ARM's with great regularity. I have banked with BOA for over 20 years and they have wrote me personally, and many of my homebuilding clients, ARM's over the years. U.S. Treasuries, Bonds and other monetary factors often times determine which lending products (ARM's 30 year fixed, etc.) can carry the best interest rates. I moved 2 years ago, at which time I had an 10/1 Bank of America ARM which carried an interest rate of 3.65 for the first 10 years-very difficult to leave behind as I was only in year 4. ARM's have been, and can continue to be, very viable loan products if underwritten properly. I think the author above who suggested BOA does not offer ARM's is confused with sub-prime lenders and compromised underwriting guidelines. Any yes, Bank of America made some of those loans too, just not in the quantity that other lending institutions did, and it was not their "bread and butter". In fact they made such a loan to me. When I finished construction on my current home, I called the Bank of America VP I have dealt with for those 20 years to place my construction loan into a permanent loan product. I showed up for settlement 2 weeks later having given not 1 piece of paper to BOA and signed the standard array of loan documents and the Loan Application at settlement. It's called (or was called) a "stated income" loan. Provided there was sufficient equity in the home (mine was 57%), you "stated" your income and that was it. No verification, no paystubs, no tax returns. The difference here was that BOA knew its borrower and did not order a phony appraisal or other such measures to write the loan. Many others did not know their borrower sufficiently (either by history or other verification measures) ordered phony appraisals and lent extremely high percentages of a home’s inflated value. And that was their bread and butter. Fannie and Freddie gobbled up these loans and the rest is history-unfortunately our current history. Citi's operations go far beyond home mortgages, and their financial problems are far more complex that some home loans gone bad. To compare Citi to the Auto industry, or other mortgage lenders for that matter, is apples and oranges. |
| BlueMax |
posted 11-25-2008 08:24 AM ET (US)
Or Boston Whalers to Carolina Skiffs to make it a boating analogy... ^@^ |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-25-2008 11:49 AM ET (US)
Trans--I guess then that the CEO of Bank of America lied or twisted Bank of America's position on the 60 minutes TV broadcast a couple of weeks ago. I will see if I can get a transcript of that broadcast and review it. He did say out right and verified by the station that they were in good financial condition and did not need to take the bailout money. He said they might take it to provide more money to write more mortgages. I found that the CEO came across very well in that interview |
| TransAm |
posted 11-25-2008 12:09 PM ET (US)
Fourdy, I guess you think I make this stuff up? Please, post a link to the transcript. My guess is you misunderstood what was said. I would further venture to guess that what was said was that they did not get heavy into sub-prime lending, but just a guess. No ARM's...I think not. Just click on this link http://www.bankofamerica.com/loansandhomes/index. cfm?template=compare_mortgages&context=tabpage_adjustable_rate and see that BOA currently offers no less than 5 ARM's and 2 interest only loans. If I were to respond as you would in this instance, I might say "GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU POST!!!!!!!!", but I won't. |
| TransAm |
posted 11-25-2008 12:50 PM ET (US)
O.K., here is the transcript. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/19/60minutes/main4531244.shtml Ken Lewis, Bank of America CEO did not lie or twist his position. Page 2, paragraphs 5 & 6 speak very clearly. Oh yeah, while Lewis may not have a golden parachute, his salary and lucrative stock and options totalled $25 million last year. I think most would consider that a parachute of sorts. I got no problem with his salary structure. In fact you could certainly argue he has earned it. |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-25-2008 01:23 PM ET (US)
WOW! A little defensive huh, Trans! You don't need to yell. I found the interviews and I'm going back to see how I might have misunderstood them. Meanwhile, I did like like this part: "I think they were overpaid,' he said. "It's more egregious in financial services than any other industry that I know of. We need to cut back compensation in this industry." |
| TransAm |
posted 11-25-2008 02:07 PM ET (US)
While I will defend anyone's ability to make what they can, while they can, I'm not sure Lewis is the correct person to be waiving his finger suggesting folks on Wall Street have made too much money. $25M/year seems like an awful lot of dead presidents to me. I will also suggest it is often difficult to tie loan production to compensation, although this is precisely how most mortgage loan officers are paid. You invariably end up compromising loan quality when this is the case having to police yourself in that regard, which has its pitfalls. However, when the Federal Underwriting Guidelines were arbitrarily lowered to include just about anything that had a pulse, all hell broke loose, and well, there you have it. I think we're a little off topic here, so I'll check out. |
| WT |
posted 11-25-2008 02:10 PM ET (US)
Bank of America is an idiot like the rest of the banks. Bank of America severely overpaid for Countrywide and Merrill Lynch. Bank of America is buying Merrill for $44 billion when it's worth $18 billion. I predict that BOA will be the next needing a bailout. http://seekingalpha.com/article/ 95414-bank-of-america-merrill-shotgun-marriage All banks loaned out money the past 5 years. All banks lending requirements were about the same or else they weren't going to lend any money. If most banks were lending with a 5% downpayment, you as a lender would find it difficult to find only borrowers willing to buy with a 25% downpayment. So most banks had the same lending requirements. Talk about a ghost town. Here's an easy read about a recent trip from Wall Street to Detroit. Let's hope it doesn't get much worse. Warren |
| fourdfish |
posted 11-25-2008 03:20 PM ET (US)
You know I am sure this is way out there also and I think I'll check out also. WT--I think you cannot ever find a good thing out there and lambasting BOA may be fun for you so go ahead and have fun! |
| TransAm |
posted 11-25-2008 09:12 PM ET (US)
Perhaps it's programs like this http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/11/21/ automakers-ask-bailout-paying-workers-sit/ and other union negotiated perks that have put GM on the brink. Very disturbing. The more layers of this GM onion that is peeled back, the more I think a Chapter 11 filing is needed to flush stuff like this out for good. |
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