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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area Outboard endorsement?
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Author | Topic: Outboard endorsement? |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 12-02-2008 09:57 AM ET (US)
Are those Yamahas that the Somali pirates seem to prefer? http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20081108/capt.cps.odp61. 081108152120.photo00.photo.default-512x365.jpg http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20081201/ 2008_12_01t114325_450x357_us_somalia_piracy.jpg |
20dauntless |
posted 12-02-2008 10:41 AM ET (US)
I think most brand name outboards in developing nations are Yamaha. At least that has been my experience. Of course, many boats use homemade propulsion systems with an air cooled engine and home built shaft and prop. |
hauptjm |
posted 12-02-2008 10:46 AM ET (US)
They need to upgrade to a larger HP. Yesterday, some Somali pirates were out run by a cruise ship. Although it sounds odd, I was very impressed by the speed of the last cruise ship I vacationed on. When we were at sea and at speed, we averaged 22 kts. That's a lot of boat going that speed. |
Brian7son |
posted 12-02-2008 11:08 AM ET (US)
If they haven't already done so, I would hope that many of the cruise lines would have security personnel (or the Captain and officers) onboard with access to automatic weapons. |
Buckda |
posted 12-02-2008 11:23 AM ET (US)
Brian - Many cruise ships in the area are equipped with LRAD's - Long Range Audio Devices. No - not a loudspeaker....but a LOUD noise emitting device that can disable a pursuer. These aren't much against a Somali with ear plugs - but they can incapacitate a small boat operator for long enough to gain speed. Give some gas into a strong headsea and a cruise ship may break some plates and suffer some vomit on deck, but would outrun a small pursuit boat very quickly. Actually, I've been rather surprised at how successful these pirates have been against large commercial vessels. The sea must be fairly calm in that area - because if I were a captain of a large 700 ft vessel capable of making 25 knots, I'd turn into the sea and firewall the throttle - those pirates are in for a rough ride in the pursuit vessel, if they can even keep pace. Now, if those pirates had been using Mercury outboards, THEN I could understand them catching the bigger vessel. Everyone knows that Mercury outboards produce more HP than they are rated for! |
TransAm |
posted 12-02-2008 11:27 AM ET (US)
Hard to believe some yahoos in wooden runabouts with tiller handles could pose much threat to an ocean liner, or any other boat for that matter. A couple of well placed shots from even a hunting rifle would do those rigs in. These bad guys have to be operating in much more significant vessels. |
Brian7son |
posted 12-02-2008 11:37 AM ET (US)
You know how they offer skeet shooting on some of the cruise ships? Think of the marketing possibilities here. Everyone hates terrorists. "Take a cruise and shoot real pirates!" Mount some 50 Cal's on the back of the boat and sell tickets. Or....you just put on of these babies on the stern of the ship. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/314751/anti_everything_gun/ You could still sell tickets. |
Greg Hiller |
posted 12-02-2008 12:17 PM ET (US)
Hey Steve how are ya? Shootin pirates and cruisin around could be a great business opportunity. Us old military guys can handle this. Not much running and some good shooting. Can ya come up to the river this coming summer? |
HAPPYJIM |
posted 12-02-2008 02:02 PM ET (US)
Here's Blackwater's answer to the pirate problem. http://www.blackwaterusa.com/images/pdf/AlumniNewsletter1108.pdf |
Brian7son |
posted 12-02-2008 02:59 PM ET (US)
Hot off the presses. The pirates just tried to attack a U.S. cruise ship. The Captain hit the throttle and said see ya later bad guys. |
jimh |
posted 12-02-2008 04:52 PM ET (US)
I think it was in 2005 when we were visiting LHG in Florida that we happened to find ourselves at Port Everglades as the new Cunard liner QUEEN MARY 2 was going to depart from her first-ever visit there. We waited around for several hours so we could follow her out the inlet to the Atlantic. There were several security boats accompanying her, but one by one they peeled off, leaving us alone with the huge ship. When we finally cleared the inlet, we thought we might run ahead of the QM2 for a minute and let her come by, but she was already accelerating and making turns for South America. With the big swell that was running, even in an OUTRAGE 25 with 400-HP we didn't think we could catch the QM2, at least not comfortably. We watched from her wake. The speed of the big ship was impressive. I think she can turn 29-knots, which is about 33-MPH. When you see something that big moving that fast, it is impressive. These modern cruise ships are not as fast as the old Trans-Atlantic liners, which could average over 30-knots for the four-day passage. |
fourdfish |
posted 12-02-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)
I think I heard that the QM 2 was sold to Dubai. Is that correct? We had always wanted to go on a cruise with her and now it won't happen. |
ConB |
posted 12-02-2008 05:26 PM ET (US)
I would bet that every one on that cruise ship was very happy that the ship owners did not try to save a few bucks by buying the next size smaller propulsion system. No substitute for horse power. Con |
macfam |
posted 12-02-2008 09:17 PM ET (US)
jimh, Those old trans-Atlantic liners were fast, but they were less economical than that Evinrude 225!! At 28-30 kts, the Queen Mary used one gallon of fuel every 13 ft. !!! 13 ft per gallon....over 400 gallons per mile!!! |
SJUAE |
posted 12-02-2008 09:56 PM ET (US)
fourdfish It's the QEII not QMII that has recently arrived here in the UAE and is going to be permenantly moored off Palm island in Dubai as a hotel. I'm certainly going to make the 120K trip up the road to stay on her at least one night, when she's ready. Regards |
jimh |
posted 12-02-2008 10:00 PM ET (US)
Steve--I hope that is 120K in distance and not in dollars! |
20dauntless |
posted 12-02-2008 10:04 PM ET (US)
I always find it amazing how fast large boats move, even when they look like they are going slowly. For example, many people have this idea that WA state ferries travel slowly. I've had friends that are shocked when I'm going 18 knots and they are doing the same speed. Remember, the maximum theoretical hull speed for a full displacement boat is 1.34 x the square root of the waterline length. |
fourdfish |
posted 12-02-2008 10:15 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the info Steve! We may yet get to cruise on the QM 2. It will really be great! Though, it will have to happen soon. |
OIA |
posted 12-03-2008 12:09 AM ET (US)
I'm still shocked that these guys in wooden boats with small tiller outboards can board and take over a oil tanker worth $50 million. As mentioned before on this thread, a couple of hunting rifles and game over. The seas must be flat not only for the boats to operate but for the pirates to be able to climb up the side of the ship deck level. All the while the crew just let's them do it. I'm not a conspiracy theororist by any means, but are we hearing the entire story? It just doesn't make sense. Then again, even the pirates of the carribean were able to attack and capture large Spanish Galleons with much smaller vessels. But even they had larger crews than four guys in a little boat. I just don't get it. |
Fishmore |
posted 12-03-2008 01:23 AM ET (US)
Not all of these pirates are running around in wooden boats and tiller outboards. I think the ransom payments over the last five years are in the range of 50 million dollars. That kind of money buys some better equipment. On top of that the pirates are armed with automatic weapons, grenade and rocket launchers. The ships usually only have a high pressure fire hose to fight back with. Why just a fire hose? Because port & customs restrictions do not allow them to have fire arms on board. Also a ship does not have the capabilty to reach top speed quickly and the pirates can track their targets using AIS or by pinging the ships SAT-C unit and plan an intercept course. The ships are required to have those systems operating properly so that the nations of the world can track the ships movements and a customer can track thier cargo. All that info is available on the web. Remember the pirates do not play by any rules but all the ships have to. The ability in the last 5-10 years to track large vessels and identify them is a very useful tool for these pirates. In the old days they would have to scan the horizon to find thier prey now they can just fire up thier laptop and make thier plans in advance. |
Fishmore |
posted 12-03-2008 01:41 AM ET (US)
My mistake it is not just Customs and Port restrictions but also the IMO standards organization that discourage having firearms on board. Evidently they would need to train all the mariners in proper firearms usage and they are worried that if everyone was armed on the ship then fights between crew members could turn deadly. |
jeffs22outrage |
posted 12-03-2008 01:42 AM ET (US)
Here is an article about a captain's account of his freighter being overtaken. Sounds like when you have a crew that runs into their cabins from gun fire instead of standing to fight, you stand little chance. http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/02/1695178.aspx Honestly, if someone wants money bad enough they would be willing to attack a larger ship from small wood boats with tiller motors, scale the sides of a pitching ship, and do what ever it takes. When you think you have nothing to live for any way, what are you going to loose? Also, think about all of the things that have been over come long before modern technology was there to "make our lives easier." |
Jefecinco |
posted 12-03-2008 09:23 AM ET (US)
In 1951 at age 11 we crossed from New York to Southampton on the old Queen Mary. What an adventure it was for a New Mexico farm boy. By noon of the first day we'd formed a small "gang" of about four boys. By day two we'd made a key out of a clothes hanger and had the run of the vessel. When we got caught snooping around the engine spaces the purser got his hands on us. We were told off and releived of our "key". He was good enough not to tell our folks. We returned the following January on the Ile de France (sp?). That was another nice ship but it had an entirely different character. We enjoyed a very nasty Atlantic storm which caused a lot of mal de mer. We also watched the crew carry out a rescue of the crew of a freighter that had broken in half in mid-Adlantic. That was an unforgetable experience. In many ways that really was the god old days. Butch |
Buckda |
posted 12-03-2008 09:25 AM ET (US)
The solution is simple: NATO should select a military unit and base them at the Suez Canal, UAE and some point South on the coast of Africa. Put fire teams of 8-10 men, with provisions, aboard each vessel traversing the area. Once the vessel has safely passed, transfer the unit to the appropriate base camp until needed on another vessel going the other direction. 8-10 US or British Marines, properly equipped in a self-contained portable unit, would make very short work of approaching pirates - it would take less than a year to solve the problem...while the continues to drag their feet in finding a solution to the problems in Somalia.
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sapple |
posted 12-03-2008 03:38 PM ET (US)
I heard an interesting report on NPR about this. It said the pirates have all of the incentive in the world to do this. The ships are apparently easy targets, the owners always pay ransom, and even if they get caught there are no authorities to prosecute them. There is a group of ex-British special force guys who have started a business providing security to vulnerable ships. For $30,000.00 they will provide a crew of three. They use audio devices, water cannons, and barbed wire to repel attacks, no fire arms. They said that when an attack appears to be underway, putting these defenses into action is enough to convince the pirates that the ship takes security seriously and they simply back off and wait for the next target. |
A2J15Sport |
posted 12-03-2008 03:52 PM ET (US)
All Yam's. Foreign based makers do not have to bow down to US enforced-"political correctness". They own the markets. They'll sell to anybody. Hell, the Japanese, still harvest whales, for crying out loud. We can't talk about that-Shhhhhh! |
fourdfish |
posted 12-03-2008 04:07 PM ET (US)
I have to go with Dave! It is time these guys get wacked! Why bother with goofy water cannons. The crews of these ships are just not capable to answer aggression. Hire new crews with some REAL firearms and the ability to use them. Then start fighting back! These crews needed to grow up in Chicago. Somalia gave permission anyway. Start killing them and be done with it. I'm sick of hearing about it. |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 12-03-2008 05:10 PM ET (US)
I think they should mount large loudspeakers on the ships and blast Britney Spears music as the pirates approach. |
Buckda |
posted 12-03-2008 05:19 PM ET (US)
$30 Grand for barbed wire and water cannons? Money is better invested in a network of security cameras mounted on either side of the ship, fore and aft - cost: $500 bucks per camera, installed - you could cover most ships for less than $5,000, plus $1,000 for the recording equipment, which can be located in a very small space. Call it $8,000 to make it profitable for a third party to do this. The rationale is to justify self-defense/lethal actions undertaken by crew to secure vessel and protect crew. How long does it take to traverse the area for an average vessel - 3 days? A team of 10 guys working security (most will sit around and not encounter pirates)with passcode protected and locked firearms. Three Snipers located in ship's superstructure and three two-man fire teams with M-16A2 service rifles, as well as a commander located on the bridge to coordinate communications/defensive tactics and give orders. Regular crew on "water cannon" duty and a pre-recorded series of warnings available to transmit over radio and on loudspeaker from vessel. Same rules of engagment - do not fire until fired upon or physical boarding takes place. Snipers and fire-teams take care of the rest, cameras document the procedures are followed. Captured would-be pirates are secured and detained at base camp and transported to an international tribunal for prosecution...or sent to country of the flagship they boarded - i.e. if they board a Saudi vessel, say "hello" to a rapidly carried out death sentence. If they are fortunate enough to board an American flag vessel and survive, they'll get all the protections of the ACLU and probably be relocated to a nice house in Kokomo, Indiana. This is not a difficult operation. It is clinical, it is fair and it will stop these specific symptoms of the greater problem in Somalia. Again - while this is occurring, we need to address what is going on to cause this problem in the first place - and that is that Somalis need a functional, stable government, economy and law enforcement. How to solve that problem is above my pay grade. But I know the idea above will address this current symptom. Efficient, clinical, effective. |
gnr |
posted 12-03-2008 05:30 PM ET (US)
Sounds good but the M4 might be a better choice then the A2 style M16. Much more versatility on sights and optics. |
fourdfish |
posted 12-03-2008 06:01 PM ET (US)
It is my understanding that the pirates always fire first to try to stop the ship. That it is always a clear case of self defense. These ships give up easy. I say death by BUNGA! |
Jefecinco |
posted 12-03-2008 07:22 PM ET (US)
Buckda, No offense but I doubt you have a clear picture of the legal issues of such operations nor of the logistical requirements. The political will to place US or other NATO soldiers aboard multiple flag vessels of the world does not exist at this time, IMO. As to the US conducting such operations we simply lack the manpower as well as the legal authority. Manpower, logistical and political issues can be overcome given sufficient time and other resources. However, civilian security contractors could best take on such missions at least cost with minmal legal and political issues. There are plenty of firms capable and willing to do the work. Butch |
Buckda |
posted 12-03-2008 07:35 PM ET (US)
None taken. I did not represent what the legal fallout of such an operation might provoke. I only said it would solve the problem. It would. Do we lack the intestinal fortitude? You betcha. It's a bet that the folks in Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq are placing their chips on as well. There is a good reason that El Al flights have never been hijacked. Is ruthlessness the right or appropriate way forward? I don't know. What I do know is that if you find yourself in a fight with someone with nothing to lose, you had better be prepared to run away with your tail in between your legs and eat humble pie, or you had better be prepared to kill them (although not necessarily carry it out to that extent)...because a man with nothing to lose who is not playing by any rules is the most dangerous person on the planet within his sphere of influence. The only man who comes close is the guy who is backed in the corner and is about to lose everything to that man who has nothing to lose. I've thought about this a lot in terms of traveling around the world in a private yacht one day. I can tell you what my decision would be if someone tried to aggressively board my boat in waters where there are known pirates with obvious ill intent: One or both of us is going to end up severely incapacitated - and I'll do everything within my power to ensure it is not me. Damn the consequences - I'll take my chances with a jury or even a hostile court afterwards. |
20dauntless |
posted 12-03-2008 07:41 PM ET (US)
In order for there to be a lasting solution to the piracy problem the world must confront the cause. Like Buckda said Somalia needs a stable government. Somalians need to have the ability to make a decent living without resorting to piracy. But this is not something we can solve quickly. It is my opinion that our government will not act in any meaningful way until Americans start to die. But right now the pirates are only interested in money, so the shipping companies will just consider the occasional ransom payment the cost of doing business and will pass along this cost to the consumers (us). If companies feel the need, they can hire firms like Blackwater to protect their ships. Now, if a passenger ship is ever taken, I think we can expect to see a much more aggressive response from our government, at least if a lot of Americans are on board. |
TransAm |
posted 12-03-2008 07:46 PM ET (US)
I read an article the other day where the author tried to explain it would be cost-prohibitive to hire a private security team to travel with the vessel. The costs quoted were between $1,000-$1,500 per man, per day. Well, that seems pretty cheap to me. These ships probably throw away many times that much in food every day at breakfast. It seems to me if we are arming our airline captains and including sky-marshals on flights (as we should), a small security contingent aboard a cruise ship certainly makes sense to me, and has to be do-able. After all, these ships are like floating city's. Sadly, it will likley take a successful boarding of an American ship to fully address this issue. |
fourdfish |
posted 12-03-2008 08:46 PM ET (US)
I'm with Jef! I don't think our government needs to get involved big time. However, If the cargo ships hired full time crews that could and would handle these situations then it would not cost as much as hiring a security team. Most of these ships actually have a tactical edge anyway. With the right people and weapons, they could easily defend themselves. When it starts to cost a a great deal they will take the necessary steps to protect themselves. I do not believe Somalia will be in any position any time soon to address this problem. |
Hilinercc |
posted 12-04-2008 08:30 AM ET (US)
When I was in the Coast Guard back in the eighties, I was stationed in Newport RI. The QE2 had visited Newport after her Falklands tour (she was still painted gray). We had to escort her out to the Brenton Point Tower at night. I was the duty engineer on a 41' Coast Guard UTB, this boat had a pair of 500 hp Cummins VT-903 turbo-diesels, and was relatively quick. As the QE2 followed us out of the channel, her bow was literally blotting out the stars behind us. She then radioed us to "move aside", as we did, they wicked her up and she started moving. We paced her until our throttles were firewalled (38 knts) and she just walked away from us. We were in awe. |
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