posted 12-11-2008 12:33 PM ET (US)        

What I find puzzling is until 1977 there were basically no imported outboards in the USA except for a couple kickers imported from a catalog or at your Honda motorcycle dealer. There were Archimedes Penta which I believe were English built but they never sold too many. We had 3 brands here in the states which were Mercury, OMC, & Chrysler. Sure there were many others but that was back in the old days and pretty much were bought out by the big 3 or just faded away. Many brands back then were actually made by the big 3 as well.

A few years back Mercury went after the Japanese brands for pricing their engines too competitively and stealing the American share, which at that point was only Mercury. I don't know about you but I have never seen a Yamaha or Honda priced cheaper than a Merc. Suzuki and Tohatsu absolutely but their market share at that time was so small I doubt it mattered. Some members have been screaming about buy American but ironically it was Mercury who introduced us to the Yamaha brand which started a whole revolution. First off is that while Mercury was suing everyone, their 4 strokes were mainly Yamaha powerheads and their 30hp and under were repainted Tohatsus. Secondly, in 1977 Mercury decides to import Japanese engines into the USA made by Yamaha under the Mariner moniker(60hp and below were all Yamhas). At the same time Suzuki and their twin brother Spirit come stateside but don't even get a glimse. In 1984 Yamaha came stateside under their own name along with a full lineup and the rest is history. Mercury slowly lost Yamaha and picked up ANOTHER Japanese company to make their engines which is Tohatsu/Nissan and they still make the 30hp and smaller engines to this day. Lastly Mercury started using Japanese engines as early as 1975 with their 4hp Gnat which was a Tohatsu engine. Now we can scream Buy American all we want but make sure what you have under the hood is actually made in America. Don't be a hypocrite or get fooled by buying a black Yamaha/Tohatsu or a Chevy made in Mexico. If you decide to buy a foreign product that is your right as an American and many American dealers and mechanics need your support as well. I know if you look real close at just about any starter motor on your outboard you will see Hitachi on it somewhere.

Now if you really want to make a stink about it then write your congressman or ??? When I see a US Coat Guard boat with twin Honda outboards on it, when I see the parking lot of the US senate and it is filled with Lexus, Mercedes, and Volvos, when I see the municipalities driving foreign made vehicles, man I just boil. If you really want to scream buy American....let's start at the top and make it count.

posted 12-11-2008 01:08 PM ET (US)         

Would I hesitate to buy an American car or outboard? Not at all, if they built the product that I want. But the reality is that other manufacturers products fit my needs better at the time of purchase.

I agree with the point that you can "buy American" even if it is not an American branded product. For example, the BMW X5 is built in South Carolina, the Mercedes SUV's are built in the US (Alabama, I believe), and Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai also have factories stateside. These factories employee American workers and these companies are, for the most part, doing well and expanding production.

posted 12-11-2008 01:30 PM ET (US)            

A supposedly Japanese car company may assemble a particular line of cars in America, but the parts may have been built in a number of other countries. An American car company may do the same. The only difference between the two, seems to be where the profits go.

Not so fast. Those profits may not be going where you think. An American company has American stockholders, right? Not right. American stocks are bought and sold by investors worldwide, as are Japanese and European stocks. The profits from an American company are distributed worldwide, just as they are by a Japanese or German company.

This is a GLOBAL economy. There is no "us" or "them" anymore. The only way to protect American jobs is to make it enticing for companies, all companies, to locate as much of their workforce as possible, within our borders. The only way to protect the American taxpayer is to encourage as many of those companies as possible to officially set up shop on US shore, so that we get to be the recipient of their tax revenue. And the only way to protect the American consumer is to increase the purchasing power of their wealth by keeping the playing field level and competitive for all products from all corners of the globe.

posted 12-11-2008 03:22 PM ET (US)         

Clearly 20Dauntless does not think he has been part of the problem that brought us here, which means he thinks he must be part of the solution by rejecting inferior American made products and supporting the economies of the rest of the world instead?

Since we are 180 degrees oppostie, that means that I must have been be part of the problem, since unlike 20Dautless, I own 5 American cars (made in Arlington TX and Warren MI), 4 American boats (made in Rockland MA and Edgewater FL), and 9 American outboards (made in Fond du Lac WI and Waukegan IL). He would think I have foolishly supported inferior products made by companies that maybe deserve to fail, by workers that are overpaid and underperform in quality, but as I made all of these purchases, I, like him, looked at the foreign made alternatives, found them inferior, and bought the best for myself instead.

As all of you, myself included, watch your personal assets continue to evaporate, in the future you will have to decide which of the previous course of actions makes the most sense FOR YOU. Our even maybe, Heaven forbid, you will have to put the best interests of the entire Nation above your own personal satisfaction, whether you are rich or poor, or somewhere in between. Remember, even this website originates out of Detroit.

As for Pglein and his argument, it would be nice if the Japanese practiced what he is preaching. It would seem that what is good for us should be good for them. But we are supporting one of the most closed nations in the world, yet the richest. Where are their 20 million illegal immigrants being given a chance to make a new life? They want us to buy from them, but they won't buy what we make, because, I believe, that basically they, like millions of Americans also, think their products are superior to ours. They are extremely loyal to their own Companies, a lesson we could stand to learn before it's too late, if it isn't already.
The complete and utter idiots we have in power in Washington bring our top Auto executives to Washington and PUBLICALLY HUMILIATE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD, make them beg like vagrants, and take their corporate jets away from them like children. Congress has literally have no idea of what they are doing, they are so far in over their head. Can you imagine the Japanese government doing that to the heads of Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc. or the Germans doing it to the CEO's Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Volkswagon? No way, regardless of the situation. Only in America do we shoot ourselves in the foot collectively. Even small businesses all over the world have coporate jet travel, but Nancy has to teach these bad boys a lesson. What a disgrace to all of us.

posted 12-11-2008 03:58 PM ET (US)         

First of all, I believe that the American automakers will survive. I think it's very likely that they will get some kind of federal or federally guaranteed loan so that they can continue operating. If they don't get any federal assistance, they will file for chapter 11 and reorganize, hopefully coming out of it as stronger companies. Will there be people that lose their jobs because of it? Absolutely. Will investors lose money? Absolutely. But that is what happens when companies are managed poorly for years on end.

Let's step back a moment. The reason the American automakers (and it really isn't fair to lump them all together, they each have their own problems and Ford has said they do not expect to need federal money) are in the position they are now is because they, at least in the minds of consumers, didn't build the cars that people want. They let quality slip and other manufacturers surpassed the big 3.

Sure, you can blame the American consumer for not purchasing cars from the domestic brands, but is it our responsibility to buy products that are inferior for our needs just so we can support American companies? I believe that in a free market economy the consumer can decide what product to buy and that if a company wants to be competitive it must build products that consumers want to buy.

For example, one of the cars we have is a 2004 Mercedes E320 AWD station wagon. This is a wonderful car, it gets good mileage compared to a similarly sized SUV, is very comfortable for 4 people, can haul a lot of stuff to the boat or to the mountains, and is great in snow when we go skiing. When we bought this back in 2004 we looked at every single AWD station wagon available, and not one was American made. Sure, I could have bought a Ford Explorer, but it would not have been as comfortable, gotten as good of mileage, or been as good in the snow.

Does this mean an American made car would not fit someone else better than a foreign made car? No, and clearly American cars work for a lot of people. But if General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler want to be competitive in the auto market they need to become more efficient and, most importantly, build more cars that people want to buy. I believe that the government should provide loans to the automakers so they can operate for another 12 months. After that, if they can't survive, it's time for chapter 11.

Regardless, I will continue to buy the best product for my needs that I can afford. If it happens to be a Ford, fine, but I will not sacrifice on quality, utility, etc in order to support domestic companies. It just doesn't make sense. And I agree with pglein, this is a global economy. The components to make a car come from all over the world based on where manufacturers can have them built to their specifications at the best price.

In my opinion, if a company is to succeed in the worldwide marketplace it must create products with real value. I think as soon as GM, Ford, and Chrysler start doing that, they will be able to compete again on the world stage. We all just have to hope that this comes before it is too late.

posted 12-11-2008 04:09 PM ET (US)            

The notion of a company being "American" or "Japanese" or whatever is ancient history. As is the notion of a product being "built in America" or elsewhere. These days, there are no borders.
A supposedly Japanese car company may assemble a particular line of cars in America, but the parts may have been built in a number of other countries. An American car company may do the same. The only difference between the two, seems to be where the profits go.

Not so fast. Those profits may not be going where you think. An American company has American stockholders, right? Not right. American stocks are bought and sold by investors worldwide, as are Japanese and European stocks. The profits from an American company are distributed worldwide, just as they are by a Japanese or German company.

This is a GLOBAL economy. There is no "us" or "them" anymore. The only way to protect American jobs is to make it enticing for companies, all companies, to locate as much of their workforce as possible, within our borders. The only way to protect the American taxpayer is to encourage as many of those companies as possible to officially set up shop on US shore, so that we get to be the recipient of their tax revenue. And the only way to protect the American consumer is to increase the purchasing power of their wealth by keeping the playing field level and competitive for all products from all corners of the globe.

Protectionism is a failed concept, and should be viewed in the same light as slavery or communism. Sure, it worked for a little while, but in the end, it was flawed and morally wrong.<<

Until the rest of the world allows the US to sell goods behind their borders the same way that the US does, I'm not sure the market is as globally free as some would like to think.

I own 3 foreign cars, and I just cant see any comparison between slavery and US product protectionism; tarfifs on foreign made goods sold in the US or tax breaks for US based and made goods isn't 'wrong'; it's just good business-- and fair. It certainly isn't "morally wrong" by any stretch of the imagination.

posted 12-11-2008 04:14 PM ET (US)            

This was what is bringing them down today, not the inability to produce cars Americans want. They are perfectly capable of that, as a stroll through any parking lot will reveal. A LARGE percentage of the vehicles out there are Fords, GMs, and Chryslers.

LHG,

posted 12-11-2008 04:26 PM ET (US)            

TOO MUCH GOVT. REGULATION !

>Lower corporate taxes and jobs will stay in this country.

>Abolish the CAFE standards

>Don't REQUIRE the Auto mfg. to go green !

posted 12-11-2008 04:54 PM ET (US)            

Japan, Korea, and China are masters at it as we sleep they rob us blind. Korea imports over 800,000 cars here anually and permits basically NO foreign brands in their country. Are we that stupid? Yes it has been going on for years.

We also let foreign countries come here and pit one state against another in a bidding war. Great they pay no property taxes for 20 years while the domestics have paid for 100 years. They sit in Japan and laugh at us. I feel great I have a business and pay property taxes with no relief while a company like Honda gets a free ride.

posted 12-11-2008 05:03 PM ET (US)            

See how long all the businesses with trucks, vans, and cars take to shut down with no vehicles.

The three domestics have donated multi millions to local economies over the years and it will all be gone.

When you buy a car from the domestics they average a total of 78 hours of labor for people in this country and about 38 for foreign brands.

posted 12-11-2008 05:10 PM ET (US)            

JoeSC-- said "Protectionism is a failed concept, and should be viewed in the same light as slavery or communism. Sure, it worked for a little while, but in the end, it was flawed and morally wrong."<<

Not really the Japanese and other countries have big import taxes on American goods. An American car in Japan is a status symbol. I know because I lived there for 2 years.

Our agriculture is our last big card to play.
I predict it will be played in the future.

WOW- Larry, you are mad at everyone. Some real big
misstatements about several things. I'm not going to
drop to your level with some of those.

posted 12-11-2008 05:22 PM ET (US)         

But the real issue here is CAN WE make, once again, the world's best, most competitive, products, so that people like 20 Dauntless will again buy them? Not likely, without huge payroll sacrifices for the workers (so they can compete in this wonderful world market which pays other workers much less than they need to earn), better eduction of our designers and engineers, better education of our MBA types which become our management and CEO's, curtailing their greed.

Can we make cars better than Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Lexus, etc etc? They are not going to give up the bonanza they have won easily. Can we make outboards that are PERCEIVED to be better than the hallowed Japanese 4-strokes? Can we make clothing again, rather than the low cost Chinese stuff we are forced to be wearing? Can we make TV's and cell phones again? Can we ever again achieve even a Balance of Trade instead of this horrible deficit outflow of our wealth? Can a trade SURPLUS ever be achieved, where we are bringing back the national wealth we once had? Doubtful in our lifetimes.

The problem is our national Standard of Living (code for the value a dollar will buy) has gone down since 1971 when it peaked as the Ribside Outrages were being manufactured, and we now can only afford to buy the world's cheapest products, from 3rd world nations, and can't afford to pay American workers a decent wage anymore and still compete. The products of American workers simply cost too much, and are considered too inferior for the PRICE. So the bitter pill of worker's earnings going way down is ahead for us.

posted 12-11-2008 08:07 PM ET (US)            

No one mentions that the typical UAW worker has $70+ per hour salary, benefits or retirement. Could this not be part of the problem?

Did the guys at the Whaler plant make that kind of money? There seems to be a strong sense of entitlement associated with some opinions within this thread. It is not those who bought Toyota's that caused this problem. I feel sorry for those who invest in inferior products that loose a significant part of their value when removed from the sales floor.

posted 12-11-2008 08:19 PM ET (US)         

Anyway, American companies either have sell more cars or lower costs. The reality is that both will need to happen to some degree if they are going to survive. There was recently an article in the NY Times that showed how domestic autoworkers for the big 3 were paid compared to domestic autoworkers from Honda, Toyota, etc. The result showed that they are compensated comparably, but but the big 3 have an additional $16-$20 per hour of retiree costs.

posted 12-11-2008 08:20 PM ET (US)            

2006 corvette convertable in Bankok, Thailand has a staggering price tag of..219,000 u.s. dollars.
Here's one for ya Larry,2007 Cadillac Escalade that my Cousin Just bought and paid for CASH(no finacing available) and waited for nine months at 169,000 U.S. dollars ONLY please.:)
While in Hong Kong and Shanhai this summer,I've noticed somethin' that was kinda funny,While Americans were downsizing our vehicle to something more fuel effecient(sp)
Our chinese"new money" ceo's are lusting for our big suv.
I find it amusing because 11 years ago they were still running around in mopeds..if you were running around in a VESPA,you were considered the shit!Besides,cars,american product such as Rayban sunglasses and a few other product too.

RL

posted 12-11-2008 09:23 PM ET (US)            

..BQUICK is correct- Those of us that get the Consumers reports know that many US made products are superior to foreign made products. Most of the American public does
not know this. A major PR problem.

JoeSC-- said "Protectionism is a failed concept, and should be viewed in the same light as slavery or communism. Sure, it worked for a little while, but in the end, it was flawed and morally wrong."<<

Not really the Japanese and other countries have big import taxes on American goods. An American car in Japan is a status symbol. I know because I lived there for 2 years.

Our agriculture is our last big card to play.
I predict it will be played in the future.

WOW- Larry, you are mad at everyone. Some real big
misstatements about several things. I'm not going to
drop to your level with some of those.

By the way, why do you still live in Illinois when you hate it so much???<<

I didn't even look at the other stuff you typed after my name as you're having some comprehension issues tonight. I said pretty much the exact opposite.

posted 12-11-2008 09:39 PM ET (US)            

I think that I will start a thread about my Japanese owned, Canadian fabricated, bilge pump (substitute: refigerator, insulation, TV, Barbie doll, dog collar, Burlington coat) that is the intellectual property of those darn French.

Lets see if we can offend every other country in the process. Wake up folks, it is global competition, forever blurred by partnerships, pirates and piranha.

Its time to stop the blame game and come up with solutions.

We can finger point all we want or we can whine in the way the rest of the world thinks we do. If we are so great, and we may be, lets come forward with real solutions, not nationalism and baseless commentary.

posted 12-11-2008 10:35 PM ET (US)            

"The complete and utter idiots we have in power in Washington bring our top Auto executives to Washington and PUBLICALLY HUMILIATE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD, make them beg like vagrants, and take their corporate jets away from them like children." Do you know any children that own corporate jets? If so I am moving to Illinois!

posted 12-12-2008 12:19 AM ET (US)            

"Our agriculture is our last big card to play. I predict it will be played in the future."

Read up my friend, our agriculture is our doom. Mono-product, subsidized, farming is our impending ruination. As I said in an unrelated post- economics and fuel are going to pale in comparison to the impending world food crisis.

Prepare for dialogue about food security and food sovereignty. The nations that can feed their people will survive and we are not positioned to do that.

All of the pontificating here tonight will be for naught. SC Joe, LHG, BW 23- you had better store up the canned goods and get ready for the show. Your commentary suggests you are ill prepared for what is to come.

posted 12-12-2008 02:05 AM ET (US)            

From: "To Shine One Corner of the World: Moments with Shunryu Suzuki: Stories of a Zen Teacher Told by His Students" (Edited by David Chadwick)
__________________________________________

Adjust yourself to your environment. Hmmm....

Tony

posted 12-12-2008 05:51 AM ET (US)            

I love my GM Cars.

I love my new American made gun that I bought to ward off the hoardes.

By the way it is a fair and true global economy only if other nations are opening their markets to us as we open ours to them. Do they accept foreigners like we have in the past?

Shall we all talk semiconducter dumping? Are we allowed to own in Russia and China and Japan in the same way they are allowed to own here?

Finally, will Americans start to look at more than price in judging value? Have any of you bought a stainless steel Chinese made tool set from West Marine for $59, left it in your dry cabin for 100 days, and open it only to see massive rust?

posted 12-12-2008 09:49 AM ET (US)            

Tohsgib, you wrote: “Most outboard powered boats you see today around the globe are made in America”. Really? Sure, Brunswick owns or co-owns a lot of boat companies around the word, but if you look at the number of U.S. made boats sold in markets outside of North America, then I’d be really surprised to see any high numbers. But perhaps I’m wrong?

And also: ”In the mid 90's OMC designed their own 4 strokes to compete with Honda and Yamaha. These were in the 6-15hp range only and ironically they were made in Belgium.” – Yes, OMC made (read assembled) outboards in Belguim, my old man visited the factory several times, but four strokes? Which model would that have been?

Additionally, some info for all of you that like to talk cars here on CW:

- GM has production here in Europe. Look for the brands Opel, Vauxhall and Saab (they even make some Cadillac models here now).

- Ford has production here in Europe. The cars are called, well, Ford, and Volvo. Not so long ago they also had the brands Aston Martin, Land Rover and Jaguar.

- Chrysler, well as you know they used to be on the same team with some Germans, but that just didn’t work, did it...
...but once upon a time they owned a brand called Lamborghini! But no, that didn't meet with much success either.

Finaly: some 500 yards from where I work there is a car dealership that sells Chevrolet. Guess where the cars are made? The U.S? Nope, Korea. (Used to be known as Daewoo, now owned by GM and sold as Chevrolet. I you think I'm just kidding, take a look at www.chevrolet.fi and see for you self. And I know, most of you didn't take finnish in college.)

Interesting world we live in...

posted 12-13-2008 08:54 AM ET (US)            

As for the outboard boat question, I'd like to look for some figures, but I'll have to leave that for later, sorry!

posted 12-15-2008 08:51 AM ET (US)            

The competition is not always about quality or reliability.

posted 12-16-2008 03:24 AM ET (US)            

Thank you for answering, however I’m still not fully at peace with this… ;

If I may:

Quote 1) “Not enough profit in participating as just another me-too player in the market”

A good argument, if that was the case. As I don’t have any info on the real world performance or market reception of these 90ies Evinrude four-strokes, I really cannot say that anything but correct. But IF they were not up to the standard of the competition, why bring them to the market in the first place? I know OMC had to file for Chapter 11 and so on, but surely they were smarter than that?

Quote 2) “dilutes the DFI 2-stroke is better message”

Assuming this is true, that would mean we’ll never again see an Evinrude outboard smaller than what can be made with E-TEC technology and still be profitable. BRP now have the 25 hp and 30 hp models coming out, and by next summer we should have same first hand reports on the performance of those. I for one hope they are as good as they should be. Then there are rumors of 10 hp and 15 hp models for what, 2010? 2012?

And an Evinrude outboard below 10 hp with E-TEC? I just don’t see that happening within the lifespan of E-TEC at all. So if you cannot offer the customer the better technology, you choose to offer nothing at all? That might be an error in the long run.

Anyway, they (BRP) still could have used the Johnson brand, just as OMC in the final years chose to do with the white Suzuki machines.

posted 12-17-2008 03:09 PM ET (US)            

The 9.9 and 15hp motors will return as 2 stroke E-tecs. She says the company is working their way down to the smaller motors and decided to release the new 25 and 30 hp motors first, the 9.9 and 15 fishing motors are next.

posted 12-18-2008 02:34 AM ET (US)            

I also think the world wide economic slow-down will bring a new kind of focus, i.e. small is the new big!

Fourdfish, yes, even if I’m first to look for a 40 - 50 hp outboard for my current boat project (non-whaler, no point discussing), next after that it will be time to find something new to take the place of two of my current Evinrudes, a 1977 7.5 hp and a 1990 15 hp. And by new I mean new, not new-to-me, which might be the case for the 40 - 50 hp.

I sure hope I am wrong about the 9.9 and 15 hp E-TECs, I’d love to see them at the Helsinki International Boat Show in 2010 or 2011!

posted 12-18-2008 07:27 AM ET (US)            

I think that is a valid assumption. Unless they change strategy, Evinrude is now exclusively E-TEC technology.

I would like to see them apply E-TEC down to the 50 cc/3.5 HP range as it would alleviate some of the handling/storage problems that the portable 4-stroke outboards have.

"But IF they were not up to the standard of the competition, why bring them to the market in the first place?"