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Author Topic:   Automotive Direct-Injection Engines

Kingsteven18 posted 01-15-2009 08:13 PM ET (US)
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/106442/ Gas-Engines-Get-Upgrade-Challenge-Hybrids
hauptjm posted 01-15-2009 10:45 PM ET (US)
I can see it now...a 2011 Chevrolet Suburban with a 350hp, 2 stroke E-TEC motor. Chevrolet becomes the darling of the media and leader of the planet in green vehicles while making BRP the leader in automobile powerplants. The mind bogles!
fourdfish posted 01-16-2009 12:58 PM ET (US)
Actually, this news just shows how the direct injection technology of BRP was in the forefront of several practical
applications. Several here have laughed at and bashed the direct injection technology of the E-TEC but BRP has the last laugh on this one.
Going into my 4th year with mine and still am very happy
with it's performance.
Buckda posted 01-16-2009 01:03 PM ET (US)
I don't know about forefront. Certainly a nice evolution of the technology from BRP, but remember FICHT and OptiMax for marine applications were DFI well before E-TEC.
Peter posted 01-16-2009 01:31 PM ET (US)
One of my cars has a 2L DFI turbocharged engine which makes 200 HP. The car has great acceleration and gets 30+ MPG on the highway.
kglinz posted 01-16-2009 01:41 PM ET (US)
Yes BRP is a great company. I think they invented the wheel. Maybe the airplane, too.
fourdfish posted 01-16-2009 02:45 PM ET (US)
I can see that one a nerve! Oh! Well!
jimh posted 01-16-2009 08:45 PM ET (US)
I just heard an interview with the CEO of FORD, Alan Mulally, and he said FORD was moving to direct-injection and turbo-charging on their new engines. You can think of that as a melding of the E-TEC (direct injection) and the VERADO (forced induction).
A2J15Sport posted 01-16-2009 10:31 PM ET (US)
Neither technology is new, direct injection and turbocharging.
Advances in electronics technology have made them much more controllable and cost effective.
number9 posted 01-16-2009 11:21 PM ET (US)
DIFI gasoline engines has been available on limited auto applications for several years. Some of the last Isuzu SUVs even had them among others. A way to increase power, reduce fuel flow and meet emissions.
We probably have noticed/focused OB manufacturers using this technology in their efforts to increase HP and build clean machines on a relatively small production number scale, high dollar product.
The auto industry developed the system and now finally may use it on their economy cars as probably a pricey option.
20dauntless posted 01-17-2009 02:00 AM ET (US)
I believe the DI automobile engines are four strokes rather than two strokes like the E-TEC. Just think how efficient a four stroke E-TEC would be!
Peter posted 01-17-2009 07:55 AM ET (US)
"Just think how efficient a four stroke E-TEC would be! "
I'm not sure that it would be any more efficient than the current 2-stroke E-TEC. The 2-stroke E-TEC doesn't have the parasitic losses of the 4-stroke's valve train. In fact, if you compare the fuel efficiency at low engine speeds where fuel savings are largest you will often find that the the E-TEC (or Optimax) with their stratified charging mode are MORE fuel efficient than 4-strokes.

jimh posted 01-17-2009 11:08 AM ET (US)
When you look at the engine speed history of boats (like those that are provided by the E-TEC engine management module), the amount of time the engine runs at low speed is very surprising and generally amounts to about 50-percent of the time. It would be interesting to discover if there is similar data available from car engines, and if the data shows a similar trend toward the engine being operated at low speeds.
On my one vehicle that has a tachometer, I notice that even at highway speeds (which for me means about 55-MPH) my engine speed is only 1,800-RPM at most. This seems to imply that my automobile engine spends a very high percentage of its time running in the speed range of idle to 1,800-RPM, perhaps even more so than my boat engine. If that is the case, then direct-injection stratified charge technology (such as used in the E-TEC to produce fantastic fuel economy at low engine speeds) should be a rewarding path to better fuel economy.
A2J15Sport posted 01-17-2009 12:41 PM ET (US)
DI is expensive to manufacture.
The highest priced component being the injectors themselves.
DI injectors very much resemble diesel injectors. They have to be very precision and tough to withstand the combustion chamber environment.
Kingsteven18 posted 01-17-2009 12:42 PM ET (US)
I think this one might have E-TEC:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_hollifield/1971269030/sizes/l/
Stinger23OR posted 01-17-2009 02:29 PM ET (US)
Currently Cadillac offers a 3.6L V6 DFI in their CTS and I believe STS models.
Peter posted 01-17-2009 04:56 PM ET (US)
No that one is actually powered by a 1973 Evinrude Starflite 135 V4. :)
fourdfish posted 01-17-2009 06:16 PM ET (US)
Direct injection may not be that new, however the fuel injectors themselves are new and improved. The E-TEC injector
is based on the design of stereo speakers with improved
electromagnets. Many of the others are based on solonoids.
These injectors only recently became powerful and precise
enough to withstand cylinder pressures. They are reportedly
very reliable. The E-TEC injector has been improved every
year since it has been introduced.
BTW-Their price has also been coming down every year.
merc125 posted 01-17-2009 07:52 PM ET (US)
I have about 30,000 miles on my 2007 Mazda MZR engine. It is turbocharged, intercooled, variable valve timed, and direct injected. While 250 hp and 250ftlb torque @ 2500 rpm are admirable for a 2.3 liter, fuel economy is only average, and the injectors are noisy at idle. Several of the engine castings are stamped FoMoCo. MartyD
fourdfish posted 01-17-2009 10:09 PM ET (US)
07 Mazda are solonoid based fuel injectors are much like the old FICHT injectors which are indeed noisy.

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Author	Topic: Automotive Direct-Injection Engines
Kingsteven18	posted 01-15-2009 08:13 PM ET (US) http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/106442/ Gas-Engines-Get-Upgrade-Challenge-Hybrids
hauptjm	posted 01-15-2009 10:45 PM ET (US) I can see it now...a 2011 Chevrolet Suburban with a 350hp, 2 stroke E-TEC motor. Chevrolet becomes the darling of the media and leader of the planet in green vehicles while making BRP the leader in automobile powerplants. The mind bogles!
fourdfish	posted 01-16-2009 12:58 PM ET (US) Actually, this news just shows how the direct injection technology of BRP was in the forefront of several practical applications. Several here have laughed at and bashed the direct injection technology of the E-TEC but BRP has the last laugh on this one. Going into my 4th year with mine and still am very happy with it's performance.
Buckda	posted 01-16-2009 01:03 PM ET (US) I don't know about forefront. Certainly a nice evolution of the technology from BRP, but remember FICHT and OptiMax for marine applications were DFI well before E-TEC.
Peter	posted 01-16-2009 01:31 PM ET (US) One of my cars has a 2L DFI turbocharged engine which makes 200 HP. The car has great acceleration and gets 30+ MPG on the highway.
kglinz	posted 01-16-2009 01:41 PM ET (US) Yes BRP is a great company. I think they invented the wheel. Maybe the airplane, too.
fourdfish	posted 01-16-2009 02:45 PM ET (US) I can see that one a nerve! Oh! Well!
jimh	posted 01-16-2009 08:45 PM ET (US) I just heard an interview with the CEO of FORD, Alan Mulally, and he said FORD was moving to direct-injection and turbo-charging on their new engines. You can think of that as a melding of the E-TEC (direct injection) and the VERADO (forced induction).
A2J15Sport	posted 01-16-2009 10:31 PM ET (US) Neither technology is new, direct injection and turbocharging. Advances in electronics technology have made them much more controllable and cost effective.
number9	posted 01-16-2009 11:21 PM ET (US) DIFI gasoline engines has been available on limited auto applications for several years. Some of the last Isuzu SUVs even had them among others. A way to increase power, reduce fuel flow and meet emissions. We probably have noticed/focused OB manufacturers using this technology in their efforts to increase HP and build clean machines on a relatively small production number scale, high dollar product. The auto industry developed the system and now finally may use it on their economy cars as probably a pricey option.
20dauntless	posted 01-17-2009 02:00 AM ET (US) I believe the DI automobile engines are four strokes rather than two strokes like the E-TEC. Just think how efficient a four stroke E-TEC would be!
Peter	posted 01-17-2009 07:55 AM ET (US) "Just think how efficient a four stroke E-TEC would be! " I'm not sure that it would be any more efficient than the current 2-stroke E-TEC. The 2-stroke E-TEC doesn't have the parasitic losses of the 4-stroke's valve train. In fact, if you compare the fuel efficiency at low engine speeds where fuel savings are largest you will often find that the the E-TEC (or Optimax) with their stratified charging mode are MORE fuel efficient than 4-strokes.
jimh	posted 01-17-2009 11:08 AM ET (US) When you look at the engine speed history of boats (like those that are provided by the E-TEC engine management module), the amount of time the engine runs at low speed is very surprising and generally amounts to about 50-percent of the time. It would be interesting to discover if there is similar data available from car engines, and if the data shows a similar trend toward the engine being operated at low speeds. On my one vehicle that has a tachometer, I notice that even at highway speeds (which for me means about 55-MPH) my engine speed is only 1,800-RPM at most. This seems to imply that my automobile engine spends a very high percentage of its time running in the speed range of idle to 1,800-RPM, perhaps even more so than my boat engine. If that is the case, then direct-injection stratified charge technology (such as used in the E-TEC to produce fantastic fuel economy at low engine speeds) should be a rewarding path to better fuel economy.
A2J15Sport	posted 01-17-2009 12:41 PM ET (US) DI is expensive to manufacture. The highest priced component being the injectors themselves. DI injectors very much resemble diesel injectors. They have to be very precision and tough to withstand the combustion chamber environment.
Kingsteven18	posted 01-17-2009 12:42 PM ET (US) I think this one might have E-TEC: http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_hollifield/1971269030/sizes/l/
Stinger23OR	posted 01-17-2009 02:29 PM ET (US) Currently Cadillac offers a 3.6L V6 DFI in their CTS and I believe STS models.
Peter	posted 01-17-2009 04:56 PM ET (US) No that one is actually powered by a 1973 Evinrude Starflite 135 V4. :)
fourdfish	posted 01-17-2009 06:16 PM ET (US) Direct injection may not be that new, however the fuel injectors themselves are new and improved. The E-TEC injector is based on the design of stereo speakers with improved electromagnets. Many of the others are based on solonoids. These injectors only recently became powerful and precise enough to withstand cylinder pressures. They are reportedly very reliable. The E-TEC injector has been improved every year since it has been introduced. BTW-Their price has also been coming down every year.
merc125	posted 01-17-2009 07:52 PM ET (US) I have about 30,000 miles on my 2007 Mazda MZR engine. It is turbocharged, intercooled, variable valve timed, and direct injected. While 250 hp and 250ftlb torque @ 2500 rpm are admirable for a 2.3 liter, fuel economy is only average, and the injectors are noisy at idle. Several of the engine castings are stamped FoMoCo. MartyD
fourdfish	posted 01-17-2009 10:09 PM ET (US) 07 Mazda are solonoid based fuel injectors are much like the old FICHT injectors which are indeed noisy.