CO2 regulations affect on outboard motor's CARB and other ratings?

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Author Topic:   CO2 regulations affect on outboard motor's CARB and other ratings?

Buckda posted 02-19-2009 03:48 PM ET (US)
Ref: http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/19/healthscience/19epa.php
Okay, so we know that CO emissions are highly regulated and that controlling the level of CO emitted in the exhaust of an outboard is a critical component (among others) to achieving the highest emissions control ratings.
We also know that some of the “cleanest” engines are tuned specifically to reduce the regulated emission gasses and particles.
So, for those engineers amongst us, what do the new CO2 regulations mean for outboard motor manufacturers. I believe I read somewhere that the E-TEC (as an example) has very limited CO emissions which make it a 3-star compliant motor, however, the engine puts out a bit more CO2 than a comparable 4-stroke motor.
Thoughts?
Will these new guidelines be a “game changer” for the world of outboard emissions compliance?
“If the environmental agency determines that carbon dioxide is a dangerous pollutant to be regulated under the Clean Air Act, it would set off one of the most extensive regulatory rule makings in history.” – excerpted from the above article in today’s International Herald Tribune

Buckda posted 02-19-2009 03:50 PM ET (US)
Make that "What WOULD the new CO2 regulations mean...."
Thanks!
Peter posted 02-19-2009 04:20 PM ET (US)
Because the products of perfectly clean hydrocarbon combustion is H20 and C02, the meaning would be BAD. The more gas perfectly combusted in a unit of time, the more C02 gas emitted in that unit of time.
I don't believe that the E-TEC emits significantly more or less C02 than a 4-stroke. The amount of C02 emitted is directly proprotional to the amount of gas consumed, as mentioned above. In some situations the E-TEC uses less gas than a 4-stroke and in some situations more.
Lil Whaler Lover posted 02-19-2009 05:11 PM ET (US)
Just a thought on carbon monoxide emission levels, when the first E-Tec's showed up at boat shows, they were set up in tanks and run at the shows. The word from BRP was that the level of emissions was so low that you could run the engine in a closed garage or workshop and have no worries about carbon monoxide.
Anyone else remember them doing this?
Buckda posted 02-19-2009 05:16 PM ET (US)
Yes. That is Carbon Monoxide (CO) to which they refer. The E-TEC has considerably lower CO emissions than 4-strokes, as illustrated in one of their feature-length "2 is greater than 4" marketing videos comparing an E-TEC 150 vs. a Yamaha F150 4-stroke
The emissions gas that is being discussed is Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Which is the gas that you yourself emit from your mouth or nose every time you exhale.
Side question - would "out of shape" people eventually be penalized for lung inefficiencies? After all an athlete has much more efficient oxygen exchange than someone who is not in condition.....Okay - forget that question - back to outboard motors and CO2 emissions...
jimh posted 02-19-2009 06:17 PM ET (US)
Each gallon of gasoline (about 6.25-lbs) when burned produces about 20-lbs of carbon dioxide.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/co2.shtml
Carbon dioxide is not exactly a gas that is produced in trace amounts in the exhaust of an engine running on gasoline.
Moe posted 02-19-2009 09:46 PM ET (US)
There are no new regulations governing CO2 yet. However, I believe if we go down this road, it won't be long before the individual citizen's right to burn fossil fuel for anything... home heating, hot water, lawn care, transportation, or recreation... will disappear. Electrical power companies, the military, and certain politically favored commercial enterprises (including fishing fleets) will be given exclusive rights to that.

With regard to outboards, I expect to see GPH standards any day now.
A2J15Sport posted 02-19-2009 11:44 PM ET (US)
I, as a human being (mammal), put out more CO2 than any engines I have owned, or ever will.
Buckda posted 02-20-2009 02:05 PM ET (US)
“… under the clean air law any source emitting more than 250 tons of a declared pollutant would be subject to regulation…” – from the above linked article.
1 US ton = 2,000 lbs.
If 1 gallon of gasoline emits approximately 20 lbs of carbon dioxide, then any motorized vehicle will qualify for regulations after burning 100 gallons of fuel.
By way of example, I burn several thousand gallons of fuel in my automobile every year. I also burn several hundred, perhaps a thousand gallons of fuel in my boat every year. Methinks the folks at EPA must be sailors and not power boaters!
Additionally, I burn many hundreds of gallons of LP Gas to heat my home (estimate, as I’ve not lived a full year in the house, but based on heating/cooking fuel usage since January).
Humans exhale about 1 kg of CO2 per day, but that includes carbon that was originally taken out of the CO2 in the air by plants that are either consumed by humans or by the animals that humans eat, so it is considered a closed loop, with no net addition to the atmosphere, so it is unlikely to be regulated, and you also fall below the threshold of 250 tons, because1 kg/day equals about 800 lbs of CO2 per year per person, or 5,365,594,521,600 (that’s 5.3 trillion) lbs of CO2 per year for every man, woman and child on the planet (world population estimate of 6,706,993,152)
Ref: http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/faq.html and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=World+population&btnG=Search
Maybe I will have to buy a windmill to power my house after all...
elaelap posted 02-20-2009 02:40 PM ET (US)
"Each gallon of gasoline (about 6.25-lbs) when burned produces about 20-lbs of carbon dioxide." [?!]
Would one of you science types please explain, in words a dull ten-year-old can comprehend, how this can be possible. In fact, to really point up how dull that ten-year-old is, how the hell do you weigh anything when it's in the form of a gas?
Tony
Peter posted 02-20-2009 03:09 PM ET (US)
In fact, to really point up how dull that ten-year-old is, how the hell do you weigh anything when it's in the form of a gas?
Here you go Tony ==> web.mst.edu/~gbert/Gas/AIGases.html . I think a ten year old can comprehend this. ;)
The estimated C02 weight is based on the molecular weight of C02 multiplied by the number of moles (not the animal or things you find on skin) of C02 produced by the combustion of a certain quanity (moles) of hydrocarbons.

Buckda posted 02-20-2009 03:47 PM ET (US)
Tony -
This is better (at least for me). The experiment linked above was fun, but didn't really help me comprehend quickly what/why this is so.
Try here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/co2.shtml
My answer: Magic!
I'm a words guy, not a chemist or a mathematician....
Buckda posted 02-20-2009 03:49 PM ET (US)
Sheesh...that is the same page JimH linked to. I knew I understood it too quickly - I had previously reviewed the material!
Buckda posted 02-20-2009 03:55 PM ET (US)
How about this: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm#calculating
The folks at Slate did a good job explaining to their readers in 2006: http://www.slate.com/id/2152685

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Author	Topic: CO2 regulations affect on outboard motor's CARB and other ratings?
Buckda	posted 02-19-2009 03:48 PM ET (US) Ref: http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/19/healthscience/19epa.php Okay, so we know that CO emissions are highly regulated and that controlling the level of CO emitted in the exhaust of an outboard is a critical component (among others) to achieving the highest emissions control ratings. We also know that some of the “cleanest” engines are tuned specifically to reduce the regulated emission gasses and particles. So, for those engineers amongst us, what do the new CO2 regulations mean for outboard motor manufacturers. I believe I read somewhere that the E-TEC (as an example) has very limited CO emissions which make it a 3-star compliant motor, however, the engine puts out a bit more CO2 than a comparable 4-stroke motor. Thoughts? Will these new guidelines be a “game changer” for the world of outboard emissions compliance? “If the environmental agency determines that carbon dioxide is a dangerous pollutant to be regulated under the Clean Air Act, it would set off one of the most extensive regulatory rule makings in history.” – excerpted from the above article in today’s International Herald Tribune
Buckda	posted 02-19-2009 03:50 PM ET (US) Make that "What WOULD the new CO2 regulations mean...." Thanks!
Peter	posted 02-19-2009 04:20 PM ET (US) Because the products of perfectly clean hydrocarbon combustion is H20 and C02, the meaning would be BAD. The more gas perfectly combusted in a unit of time, the more C02 gas emitted in that unit of time. I don't believe that the E-TEC emits significantly more or less C02 than a 4-stroke. The amount of C02 emitted is directly proprotional to the amount of gas consumed, as mentioned above. In some situations the E-TEC uses less gas than a 4-stroke and in some situations more.
Lil Whaler Lover	posted 02-19-2009 05:11 PM ET (US) Just a thought on carbon monoxide emission levels, when the first E-Tec's showed up at boat shows, they were set up in tanks and run at the shows. The word from BRP was that the level of emissions was so low that you could run the engine in a closed garage or workshop and have no worries about carbon monoxide. Anyone else remember them doing this?
Buckda	posted 02-19-2009 05:16 PM ET (US) Yes. That is Carbon Monoxide (CO) to which they refer. The E-TEC has considerably lower CO emissions than 4-strokes, as illustrated in one of their feature-length "2 is greater than 4" marketing videos comparing an E-TEC 150 vs. a Yamaha F150 4-stroke The emissions gas that is being discussed is Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Which is the gas that you yourself emit from your mouth or nose every time you exhale. Side question - would "out of shape" people eventually be penalized for lung inefficiencies? After all an athlete has much more efficient oxygen exchange than someone who is not in condition.....Okay - forget that question - back to outboard motors and CO2 emissions...
jimh	posted 02-19-2009 06:17 PM ET (US) Each gallon of gasoline (about 6.25-lbs) when burned produces about 20-lbs of carbon dioxide. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/co2.shtml Carbon dioxide is not exactly a gas that is produced in trace amounts in the exhaust of an engine running on gasoline.
Moe	posted 02-19-2009 09:46 PM ET (US) There are no new regulations governing CO2 yet. However, I believe if we go down this road, it won't be long before the individual citizen's right to burn fossil fuel for anything... home heating, hot water, lawn care, transportation, or recreation... will disappear. Electrical power companies, the military, and certain politically favored commercial enterprises (including fishing fleets) will be given exclusive rights to that. With regard to outboards, I expect to see GPH standards any day now.
A2J15Sport	posted 02-19-2009 11:44 PM ET (US) I, as a human being (mammal), put out more CO2 than any engines I have owned, or ever will.
Buckda	posted 02-20-2009 02:05 PM ET (US) “… under the clean air law any source emitting more than 250 tons of a declared pollutant would be subject to regulation…” – from the above linked article. 1 US ton = 2,000 lbs. If 1 gallon of gasoline emits approximately 20 lbs of carbon dioxide, then any motorized vehicle will qualify for regulations after burning 100 gallons of fuel. By way of example, I burn several thousand gallons of fuel in my automobile every year. I also burn several hundred, perhaps a thousand gallons of fuel in my boat every year. Methinks the folks at EPA must be sailors and not power boaters! Additionally, I burn many hundreds of gallons of LP Gas to heat my home (estimate, as I’ve not lived a full year in the house, but based on heating/cooking fuel usage since January). Humans exhale about 1 kg of CO2 per day, but that includes carbon that was originally taken out of the CO2 in the air by plants that are either consumed by humans or by the animals that humans eat, so it is considered a closed loop, with no net addition to the atmosphere, so it is unlikely to be regulated, and you also fall below the threshold of 250 tons, because1 kg/day equals about 800 lbs of CO2 per year per person, or 5,365,594,521,600 (that’s 5.3 trillion) lbs of CO2 per year for every man, woman and child on the planet (world population estimate of 6,706,993,152) Ref: http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/faq.html and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=World+population&btnG=Search Maybe I will have to buy a windmill to power my house after all...
elaelap	posted 02-20-2009 02:40 PM ET (US) "Each gallon of gasoline (about 6.25-lbs) when burned produces about 20-lbs of carbon dioxide." [?!] Would one of you science types please explain, in words a dull ten-year-old can comprehend, how this can be possible. In fact, to really point up how dull that ten-year-old is, how the hell do you weigh anything when it's in the form of a gas? Tony
Peter	posted 02-20-2009 03:09 PM ET (US) In fact, to really point up how dull that ten-year-old is, how the hell do you weigh anything when it's in the form of a gas? Here you go Tony ==> web.mst.edu/~gbert/Gas/AIGases.html . I think a ten year old can comprehend this. ;) The estimated C02 weight is based on the molecular weight of C02 multiplied by the number of moles (not the animal or things you find on skin) of C02 produced by the combustion of a certain quanity (moles) of hydrocarbons.
Buckda	posted 02-20-2009 03:47 PM ET (US) Tony - This is better (at least for me). The experiment linked above was fun, but didn't really help me comprehend quickly what/why this is so. Try here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/co2.shtml My answer: Magic! I'm a words guy, not a chemist or a mathematician....
Buckda	posted 02-20-2009 03:49 PM ET (US) Sheesh...that is the same page JimH linked to. I knew I understood it too quickly - I had previously reviewed the material!
Buckda	posted 02-20-2009 03:55 PM ET (US) How about this: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm#calculating The folks at Slate did a good job explaining to their readers in 2006: http://www.slate.com/id/2152685