posted 03-01-2009 04:13 PM ET (US)            

Between the air temp and the water temp...

posted 03-01-2009 06:33 PM ET (US)            

If you go out in a SCA< SMALl Craft Advisory in a 20 foot boat or less your a problem looking to happen. AS the person in charge of a "Swim Event" last june, we cancelled the Safety support fleets participation in the event because of SCA. Most every boat was less than 21 feet.

A few boats, one a 16 the other a 42 did go out and assist swimmers who wanted to swim that event anyway, but I thought it a bad idea then and I still say its a risky business even today. The boaters were very experienced and handled it well, but the rest with less bad weather experience stayed in, and rightfuly so.

posted 03-02-2009 10:40 AM ET (US)            

RAMCAP Construction
What is RAMCAP technology?
Industry legend Bob Dougherty spent more than 40 years designing some of the most recognized and successful boats on the market. Bob and his son, Stephen, started Everglades Boats to build a full line of versatile family fishing boats using the patented RAMCAP construction process.

RAMCAP (Rapid Molded Core Assembly Process) bonds the hull, deck and structural core together under extreme pressure to deliver a truly unsinkable boat that will sustain its integrity in the roughest sea conditions.

In addition to providing incredible stability and unsinkability, RAMCAP eliminates air voids between the deck and hull, giving every Everglades more interior room and exceptional fit and finish. A further guarantee of the boats' quality is Everglades Boats 10-year transferable limited hull warranty.

What is the difference between RAMCAP and conventional fiberglass boat building?
Conventional fiberglass boat manufacturers inject or spray foam between the deck and hull to achieve flotation. With RAMCAP, the opposite takes place: a pre-molded high-density closed-cell urethane core is chemically bonded to the hull and deck to create a strong, unsinkable, one-piece boat. Each core is inspected prior to bonding to ensure its integrity.

posted 03-02-2009 11:27 AM ET (US)            

http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/4892322_2160052_62312629_Web_3/ Image-4892322-62312629-2-Web_0_b74e531037cc96d7f86cd08db71f38cb_1

With that said you don't venture 20 - 50 miles offshore without one of these onboard that's ready to use at all times.

http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/4892322_2159339_31002124_Web_4/ Image-4892322-31002124-2-Web_0_e56c45187d17c6b2db0b8502a3e1873f_1

Unsinkable is a great feature but hanging on to a boat for any length of time in 3 + feet seas is very difficult.

Sad story for sure.

posted 03-02-2009 11:47 AM ET (US)            

Boaters who venture offshore should also carry a sea anchor just in case they loose power. Gives you more options.

posted 03-02-2009 11:53 AM ET (US)            

It's impossible.

You cannot do it without a life jacket on when the weather is *perfect* for more than a few hours.

When it's rough, the chances of having your teeth bashed in is about 100%. Trust me... getting near an UPRIGHT boat in that sea state would be tough enough.

Take this as coming from someone who's picked a few thousand divers up out of the water: Even when the boat is fully maneuverable, and run by a good Captain, it's damned tough when it gets snotty. Getting near a small boat that's turtle in a seaway...... forget it.

BEST chance of survival for those who care about these things is a tag line about 100 feet long and PFD's. You can stay afloat LOTS longer by getting away from the boat, yet staying close to it for SAR identification. Then all you need to do is to not freeze to death. Sadly... the water temp, even down there, will be lethal in less time than has already passed.

Dave

posted 03-02-2009 01:12 PM ET (US)            

[Dead link removed]

posted 03-02-2009 02:48 PM ET (US)            

So this may have happened while fishing, or when the captain attempted to keep the bow facing the seas by anchoring after an engine failure (which seem the two likely scenarios at this point).

I am beginning to formulate an opinion which puts much greater emphasis on using a drift anchor off the bow if I experience engine trouble offshore - even if I can anchor with the boat's anchor.

Here is another question that comes to mind. As these were all football players, and two were NFL football players, it lends me to think that they are beefy guys - four beefy guys in a 21 foot boat in rough seas - doesn't sound like the most stable platform. If they were all tossed to one side of the boat by a wave, and a second wave came at the boat, it is very possible that it was rolled (perhaps they were in the stern of the boat bailing water/spray that had come aboard from being anchored in tough seas like that).

Whalers may be unsinkable, but they do capsize like this Everglades did. I know my 18' Outrage is very sensitive to lateral trim when you have beefy people aboard. Keeping the engine running is considered job 1 on my boat!

posted 03-02-2009 04:14 PM ET (US)            

You just never know!

posted 03-02-2009 04:26 PM ET (US)            

That is a great idea. I often keep my bow line secured to the mid-ships cleat, but that is usually just because I single-hand the boat often, and it helps when docking. That said, I usually have my dock lines (each 25 feet long) attached to cleats. If the boat capsized, MUCH would dump out of the coolers and dive for the bottom, I'm afraid, but those two dock lines would be available, and could be lashed across the overturned hull to provide some kind of hand-hold.

The first photo released from the coast guard shows the survivor whom they found with the boat clinging to the "leg" of the inverted outboard at the stern of the boat. The boat is actually floating quite well even with his weight back there, but he is not dry and comfortable on the keel. The good thing is that he is wearing a pfd - so he must have either already been wearing it when the boat capsized, or was able to get to it after the boat went over. Hopefully the other men were also able to get pfd's and can be found very soon before hypothermia and dehydration take their toll.

posted 03-02-2009 05:34 PM ET (US)            

Anchoring a 21-ft motorboat in shallow water in lumpy seas with a stiff breeze blowing is perhaps the very worst possible tactic--one to be employed only in extremis, like a hundred yards off some gnarly lee shore rocks with wind and waves driving one's boat toward certain disaster. If the motor in fact failed, and there was no sea anchor/drogue to deploy, much, much better than anchoring would have been to just let the boat drift and assume its own most comfortable position relative to the swells and wind. And I'd get those huge guys down on the deck, sitting or better yet lying down. And I'd cobble together some sort of drogue, using a bait box, cooler chest, a bunch of weighted throw cushions, whatever, and run it off the bow with my anchor line--NO ANCHOR ATTACHED.

Yikes! What a waste.

Tony

posted 03-02-2009 06:46 PM ET (US)            

There were 4 very large individuals on board that Everglades 21, I'm interested in what types of PFD's were in use/on board.

I'm 5'9" & was 225 at my heaviest a Size XL Type 1 PFD (May West) fit me snugly. A couple of these guys were in the 6'3"-6'5" 230 - 250 lb Range, which brings to mind the question, even if they had PFD's were they of sufficient size & fit for such large indieviduals?

posted 03-02-2009 07:30 PM ET (US)            

Long story short, I have some pictures of a '90 Montauk floating upside down and the profile is a lot higher in the water. However, this was with everything stripped off of the boat (i.e. motor, console,etc). However, I can't help but think that it would still ride higher than the picture of the everglade boat that I have seen. Pictures of the Montauk

To figure out what this boat is doing upside down, see this thread.

Let's hope for the best down in Florida, but I like the suggestion of having some ropes available for passengers. Staying with the boat is obviously critical.

posted 03-02-2009 07:32 PM ET (US)            

Boat was, as expected, turtle. From the video it looked like only room for one guy to hang onto the engine, which is the number of survivors (so far anyhow). Even in the smallish waves on the scene at the time of the rescue, water was freely washing over the entire hull.

Unsinkable boats mean just that... but turtle, they will not offer a place for people.

Glad the one guy made it.

Dave

posted 03-02-2009 07:37 PM ET (US)            

Pretty hard to imagine 3 additional guys sitting on the hull without having anything to hang onto. The survivor had the outboard to hold onto.

Let's hope we get some more good news soon.

posted 03-02-2009 08:57 PM ET (US)            

As a member of the boat building industry, it pains us greatly to see events like this happen, when some simple preparation and caution would have probably ended up is a pleasant afternoon catching something to put on the grill. We take our boats out all the time to test them, get prop sizes correct, etc. We ALWAYS know the tides, the prevailing winds, the approaching fronts, the chance of weather events, you name it. At times it is just a boat ride, on a glass calm gulf. But we still pay attention to what needs to be paid attention to.

Mother Nature is not one to take lightly. Just like my wife. What I stated above my be "easier said than done", but, unfortunately, there may be 3 men who wished they might have done the same...

Via con Dios, mi amigos.

posted 03-02-2009 09:02 PM ET (US)            

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage76.html

posted 03-03-2009 09:19 AM ET (US)            

At this moment I can't seem to find my copy of Van Dorn's OCEANOGRAPHY AND SEAMANSHIP, but I do recall that wave height is a function of wind speed, time, and fetch, and to get to 14-feet you need quite a bit of all three.

A Navy website has a forecast model for wave height in this area:

https://www.fnmoc.navy.mil/ww3_cgi/cgi-bin/ww3_loop.cgi?color=b& area=cent_am&prod=sig_wav_ht

Here is the forecast for this morning, March 3, which shows prediction of seven to nine foot waves in the area offshore from Tampa.

posted 03-03-2009 10:33 AM ET (US)            

I think breaking waves are more prevalent in the shallower waters causing wave height increases whereas the base can no longer support the wave (also a factor is the steepness of the wave in more open waters) - wave height I think as jimh stated being subject to wind speed, time the wind is blowing and the amount of open water (fetch) the wind blows over. The less fetch, the smaller the waves will be no matter the amount of time the wind blows. I think also of significance in waves is whether the wind is blowing against the prevailing current (or maybe that just creates chop - again, I am on my own theory here).

It is interesting to note that the water itself is not really moving in waves - water will move with the current, while the wave will move along the water, much like an undulating rope - the fibers do not move but the "wave" does.

Sorry to be so dense amongst the true knowledge that is on this site, I am not trying to preach but am "fishing" for someone to set me right on my theory and understanding gleaned from my time as a "passenger" on troop ships.

posted 03-03-2009 11:48 AM ET (US)            

Troll, Troll, Trolliing Dope
Trolliing after me -
Merily,Merily, Merily, Merily
You're a Troll indeed!

(Alternate last verses "You're Tweedle-Dumb to my Tweedle-Dee..." - or simply "Binkie is a Dweeb....")

posted 03-03-2009 11:52 AM ET (US)            

Rather than pointing out the mistakes of these boaters (Which is fairly easy to do from the warmth and comfort of your computer desk top), let’s analyze things you can do to help should you face a similar circumstance. Running through these kinds of scenarios in your head when you are warm, rational and comfortable should help you “react” when faced with a real-life situation.

Some thoughts:
1) If offshore more than 3-5 miles, always wear your PFD.
2) I think it is important that even if you stow docklines while underway, you should have them secured to the hull in some fashion. This will keep them from heading to Davy Jones’ locker when you capsize. Once the boat is capsized, use at least one dock line to lash across the hull to give passengers a handhold to help them get on top of the hull and also to help them hang on in rough seas. In this circumstance, even if you drowned or were unconscious, the coasties would have found you and at least provided your loved ones with closure.
3) Buy PFD’s with “D” rings. Store several small aluminum caribiners in the pocket
4) Clip yourself to the dock line that is lashed to the hull. In rough seas, clip yourself to the dock line and float 25’ back and away from the hull to keep from getting knocked unconscious by the erratically moving hull.
5) Those plastic igloo cooler lid snaps are not going to hold your gear inside when the boat is turtle – all of that gear which does not float (handheld VHF, flashlight, etc) – is going to the bottom. So pack your emergency ditch gear in a separate “ditch container” that is clipped (caribiner) to the boat – not lashed. You want it to be very easy to reach under the overturned boat and clip the container to your PFD’s D’Ring *with small caribiner attached*…or to the boat via the lashed dock line mentioned in point 2 above.
6) If you plan to go offshore more than 30 miles without a chase boat – you should consider an emergency life raft (inflatable) of some kind.
7) Always carry a knife that is either in a closed pocket (zippered, buttoned or tight-fitting clothing) or on a sheath in your belt. Use the knife to cut the anchor loose, or even, if necessary, to puncture the hull and provide a hand/foothold to climb up on the overturned hull. – I’m talking about a good, quality general purpose serrated blade with fixed handle. You will spend at least $100 on this knife, and you will obsess about keeping it sharp.

Another thing, which I’m not sure really even mattered in this case, but it is a good idea to hail the Coast Guard from time to time if you are in a difficult situation to. These guys had to have realized that conditions were deteriorating and they were in some pretty aggressive conditions relative to their boat size. Calling the Coasties to let them know you are out there, on your way in and your location is pretty important. I’m not advocating bugging the US Coast Guard as backup when you make bad decisions, but when circumstances catch you off guard or just deteriorate on you, it doesn’t hurt to give them a hail, ETA at what harbor and a follow up every hour or so. Even talking to another vessel would have helped.

Consider that captains of sea-going vessels communicate with each other about conditions, locations and other information. Captain McSorley of the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald was in communication with several other freighters the night that the Fitz sank, and he was in regular communication with Captain Cooper on the MV Anderson, who was about 17 miles away. These well-being communications would have been critical to help the Coast Guard locate this vessel on Saturday night or Sunday morning…instead, they have been searching for days.

The Coast Guard will make it clear if you are being inappropriate with your communication to them – trust me. Just call them and let them know your situation, and basic information. Then check in with them to close the report out when you get to port.

Any other key learnings/takeaways others have pulled from this story?

posted 03-03-2009 11:56 AM ET (US)            

This whole tragedy, and especially the USCG photo of that sole survivor clinging to the lower unit on that slippery capsized hull should put that myth to rest.

posted 03-03-2009 12:07 PM ET (US)            

The same thing happens in NC along Cape Lookout Shoals and adjacent waters. I've seen it go from slick calm to 6 - 10 feet in less than 30 minutes. I got caught one time because I was stupid. The only thing I could do was venture farther offshore where the wave periods we larger and more managiable. Had to spend the night offshore with my Florentino Para Anchor deployed to save gas.

If these guys anchored to fish and not due to breakdown they pretty much sealed their fate. It would be virtually impossible to retrieve an anchor in those conditions the only real option they had was to cut the rope.

There are many lessons learned from this tragic accident that need to be discussed.

Here's an XM Weather picture taken early Sunday morning while I worked on my boat.

http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/ 4892322_3341636_62244171_WebSmall_3/ Image-4892322-62244171-2-WebSmall_0_9c3cba05a9363e214c0641f31c243094_1

posted 03-03-2009 12:42 PM ET (US)            

Laughed out loud... probably the best thing to come out of the thread to date... ;-)

To the post regarding wave period V/S height, you are dead right. Close period stuff is LOTS worse than long period swells. 12 foot swells at 30 second intervals? No sweat. 3 foot chop at 5 second intervals... pure hell. This is why the Pacific was named that.. it means "Peaceful". REALLY long period swells prevail there.

That post is also correct in saying that the water does not move significatntly with waves... each molecule simply describes a circle at it advances, rises, falls, and retreats.

Dave

posted 03-03-2009 01:03 PM ET (US)            

When I bought my sea anchor, my boating friends laughed.

The Mustang Rescue stick has been the topic of a recent thread, so I won't revisit it here.

Dual VHF (one hard wire, one in the floatable ditch bag), dual GPS (one hard wire, one in the floatable ditch bag), bottled water, weather gear (in a larger, floatable ditch bag, all lines double tethered to rails with velcro straps, the list goes on. I may intend to be several miles offshore, and not 30, but things happen. Other comments in this thread (lines tied across the hull as a hand grab) made me really grateful to be a member of this site. The experience of seasoned boaters has added another dimension to my preparations (I rarely wear a knife, though there are several on board). I need to replace my hardwire VHF so that it interfaces to my GPS for DSC calling.

You can never have enough safety in mind. Spend the money, endure the PFD, do it right.

posted 03-03-2009 01:08 PM ET (US)            

The wooden hull had taken some relatively minor damage while at Block Island, and though she seemed seaworthy we were concerned that something might spring loose during the crossing, which was still pretty lumpy. The USCG was more than happy to set up an every-30-minute comms schedule with us, and they checked in with us like clockwork until we made Montauk without any further drama.

posted 03-03-2009 01:59 PM ET (US)            

Conflicting reports are not unusual in breaking news situations. Does anyone know if he was well experienced in these waters? The decision to go 30 miles offshore seems to indicate he had a bit of experience and was a competent navigator...that can be disorienting if you've never done it before or are unsure of how to use your navigational equipment well.

The report that he "watched the weather" was also interesting to me. Given the regular weather reports in the Midwest on the Great Lakes, it takes a little chutzpah to go out on any given day due to "chance of thunderstorms" each and every evening. If you avoided trips based on a chance of thunderstorms, you'd never leave port.

posted 03-03-2009 02:07 PM ET (US)            

Really? Interesting inference. My gut instinct is just the opposite, reading the same report.

My read? Maybe it just means that he was inexperienced enough to not be able to figure out that the weather was going to turn to crap (and knew how to work a GPS).

Maybe each of us sees what we want to see.

Dave

posted 03-03-2009 02:18 PM ET (US)            

Opinions about what happened are basicly speculation and nothing more. You can never be assured as to what happened, only the persons in the event can tell you what happened.

Figuring out what went wrong will be done by an investigation, not by speculation, or speculation from people here. What color you paint your bow is not applicable to this accident.

"Safety Ideas" for boaters" might be a better dicussion then speculating about what someone did or did not do wrong.I am sure a safety discussion or even a pointer to safety courses would be better, (Try the USCG AUx site) and would serve the boating community better then..."don't paint the bottom of your boat a certain color....." How about something about SCA's and what they mean to the boater with small boats, which most here have...

First one would be dont go out in a small craft with small craft warnings coming or in affect. The rest would be ideas for complications for those that don't follow this first advisory.

15-17MPH Unsafe for boats under 20'
18-33MPH- US CG Small Craft Warning-Hazardous seas beyound harbor inlet
34-47MPH Gale Warning
48-63MPH Storm Warning
64-MPH Hurricanne warning

posted 03-03-2009 02:43 PM ET (US)            

I guess my read is based on my personality. I would never venture 30 miles offshore unless I had ventured 20 miles offshore many times and was comfortable with the fuel usage, conditions, etc. Likewise, I would never venture 20 miles offshore unless I had made the trip to 10 miles many times, etc.

One thing that would "throw" me a bit in the Gulf is the shallow water. Perhaps that lulls you into a false sense of security when out there. I can see how Lake Erie may have the same effect. When out 10 miles on Lake Erie, you can still be in 14 ft. of water (in the western Basin). None of the other Great Lakes are like that - usually 10 miles out means water depth of at least 300 feet and usually more.

Strange psychological phenomenon.

Henry -

What color you paint your hull is absolutely germain to this discussion. If you painted your bottom aqua blue, it would shift the odds of the Coast Guard finding you further against you. This guy is a speck of yellow in a sea of blue. With the overturned white hull, he is a dot in a sea of blue. Still very difficult to spot, but much easier than a single person bobbing in their PFD, no question.

posted 03-03-2009 03:39 PM ET (US)            

Dave, with all due respect, thats a bunch of conjecture and speculation and I say to you prove to me that the color of a hull painting added or subtracted from finding anyone at any time ever! They found this guy, they did not find this guy cause he had a white hull.They saw him before or after they saw his hull????common...

CG people know thier business and know how to search regardless of paint color...

On getting a reflective paint that "glows in low light" I'd say your again speculatating that such an annimal can help boaters. Most boats first off, don't get dumped upside down, second, they dont take 21 foot boats w/T tops out 30 miles, and thirdly, most boaters pay attention and adhere to the wind warnings I just posted.

It might be "interesting" from your point of view but it is speculative at best. They have use reflective taps on PDFs for a very long time, to find the people. They don't tape the bottom of 21 foot boats:)))Its not a "best practice " on anyones safety short list.

posted 03-03-2009 03:55 PM ET (US)            

Marlin and I had a huge discussion last summer about all this...and decided it was up to the boater and his or her percieved experience level.

My argument was regardless of experience level, you should not launch in conditions that warn you not to based on the size of your boat the the wind and waves.

This unfortunatly is a case where a lauch was made with disasterous effects. On the other hand Marlin was out in SCA with a 16 Daunt. and everything was fine for him.

posted 03-03-2009 04:05 PM ET (US)            

Common sense indicates that in a larger object of contrasting color is much easier to spot than a smaller object.

Regarding visibility: Part of the reason fire engines and school buses are the colors that they are is because it makes them much easier to spot...and guess what? People are supposed to be looking for these objects (i.e. traffic) in a SMALL GIVEN LOCATION (i.e. down the road). In Michigan, school buses are also equipped with strobe lights on the roof.

Pedestrian crossing signs are now a flourescent yellow instead of the standard yellow/orange that they used to be in the past and the center lines on roads are painted with reflective paint and in some areas, come equipped with reflective insets embedded in the road, or in the PNW, they use raised "dots" that actually stick up above the rain-soaked pavement. With so much money and so many citizens on the road, it makes sense that there is much more of an effort to increase the safety of our nation's roadways, but some of the applications are transferable, and in some cases, it has to do with biology and how human vision works in conjunction with our brains - how we locate and interpret what we see.

Excuse me for being so bold to point out that 18 ft of 21 feet of hull by 3 or 4 feet of width might be more visible to a searcher than 8 inches of wet, dark hair and 37 inches of yellow/red shoulders encased in a life jacket bobbing in a sea of 8 ft of heaving ocean with limited visibility.

Excuse me further for coming to the speculation that a reflective color on said larger hull might make it even easier to spot when scanning the horizon for something, ANYTHING out of place/different that might indicate a survivor.

And please pardon my further assertion that maybe...just maybe... painting your hull to match the color of the ocean might make that task of finding something "different" harder for the searchers - especially in the faint light of dawn or dusk. How irresponsible of me to consider that a possibility and think it an interesting thought that a reflective paint along the highest surface of an overturned hull might actually assist these searchers to find your overturned hull.

Finally, I don't know why my rational line of thought above has struck a sensitive nerve with you; but I continue to treat this sad tragedy as a way to evaluate how I can improve my safety protocols, and be prepared for the worst in my own boating experience.

Re: paint colors - I'm not saying that the improved visibility mandates that we all go out and paint our hull one way or another - I was (hoping) to have some discussion on the subject. Each of us makes our own decisions on how to outfit our vessels for safety beyond CG or state requirements. Part of that decision process, for me at least, involves evaluating scenarios and weighing costs/feasibility and likelihood of certain events and cost/benefit analysis to inform that decision.

I do find it interesting that guys who were able to swim around the boat to get PFD's weren't apparently able to get lines around the boat or tied to each other to keep them close to the boat. Common sense indicates that sticking with the hull offers your best chance of rescue.

posted 03-03-2009 04:05 PM ET (US)            

Example:

Last summer, I was making the crossing from Port Townsend in Puget Sound to Cattle Pass in the San Juan Islands. This route takes you across the straights of Juan deFuca. on a good day, they are calm, clear, and the swell is less than one foot. On a bad day, they can be quite the opposite. It's rare to see the swells exceed 5' in the straights, since it is, after all, 100 miles inland from the ocean, but there is significant curren at work, which can confuse the seas and create nasty conditions. I set off in the morning with the expectation of a quick crossing. I knew a system was coming in, but it was not predicted to arrive until much later in the day, and my plan was to be safely in the shelter of the islands before it hit. Unfortunately, shortly after departing, my GPS stopped working. Now, I am an experienced navigator and don't need to rely on a GPS to know where I am. So, I continued on, knowing that the conditions were light, and visibility was high. Unfortunately, the outgoing tide caught me by surprise. First, it kicked up a 4-6' chop that gave the 36' boat a serious beating. This also made navigating using paper charts and radar plots increasingly difficult. The accuracy of my plots dropped to the point where I estimated my range of error to be as much as five miles. And it turned out that my inability to know my exact location, and the strong currents at play put me smack on top of a shallow bank that made the conditions on the surface even worse. At this point, I contacted VTS. I let them know my aproximate position and situation. I advised that I was not in any danger yet, but could be with little warning. They were very polite and helpful. I check in with them on regular intervals and once I was out of it, I advised them that I was returning to passive participation (listening-only). At the very least, this provided me (and my girlfriend) with a certain degree of confidence that help would come quickly if needed.

It is important to understand that VTS operators are NOT just traffic controllers. They are real-life Coast Guardsmen (and women) who can call in help just as quickly as if you were to issue a Mayday on channel 16. They are extremely familiar with the area, and know the exact position, speed, and destination of all the commercial vessels around you. They are professionals in the highest regard.

posted 03-03-2009 04:12 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

3 retro-reflective materials should also be fitted on the bottom of lifeboats and rescue boats which are not self-righting.

---

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/boatrb.asp

I guess the CG speculates that it's a good idea.

posted 03-03-2009 04:27 PM ET (US)         

Could be the boat rolled when they attempted to pull the anchor, becuase if you put a couple of beefy guys up in the bow, trying to get the anchor up, they might have taken a wave over the bow and then it was curtains. A more experienced person might have just cut the line. Of course this is all speculation.

posted 03-03-2009 04:55 PM ET (US)            

Does color affect visibility?

Well, my post above was based on “gut instinct,” but I figured: “Hey – I have an internet connection, let’s use it!” Here goes.

According to Canada’s Lifesaving Society, colors do make a difference in how visible things are in the water. This is a study done in pools with a mannequin that indicate how a contrasting color for the pool bottom makes a “victim”(blue swimsuit, Caucasian mannequin) easier to spot. With the blue bottom, the blue swimtrunked mannequin was harder to spot than on a contrasting “white” bottom color:
http://www.lifesaving.org/download/color%20of%20pool%20bottoms.pdf

Here is an anecdotal report that sea and air rescue personnel often complain that hulls are white or blue and floating on a blue and white ocean. This seems to back up my assertion that a blue overturned hull would be difficult to spot – in the opinion of professional rescuers: http://www.answers.com/topic/hull-colors

Though hardly an authoritative source, I consider this good advice from a kayak enthusiasts’ site that actually recommends putting reflective tape on your kayak for greater visibility…didn’t I just say such a thing was an interesting idea? Apparently, I’m not alone! http://www.roguepaddler.com/safety.htm

Also – hopefully an obvious question, but why are standard-issue PFD’s ORANGE in color? Could it be that ORANGE is a very visible color on the water? According to the basic safety tips on this site, that is true: http://www.discoverboating.com/beginner/safety.aspx

Even the professionals at Mustang acknowledge that certain colors are higher-visibility on the water than others, and they have incorporated it into their products: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=608 But since it doesn’t matter, Henry, please continue to wear a royal blue rain coat…

The American National Standards Institute really likes the fluorescent yellow color and is recommending that they be mandatory for emergency responders on the Nation’s highways, saying that the colored apparel is “critical” in low light conditions and inclement weather conditions. http://www.ansi.org/news_publications/news_story.aspx?menuid=7& articleid=1374

Also, Navy pilots use dye to help rescuers find them when they ditch into the ocean. The dye is a contrasting color to the ocean and plumes behind them. This is much easier for rescuers to spot than a single pilot bobbing in the ocean. http://www.prestodye.com/sea-dye.html

We’re just scratching the tip of the iceberg here, but I think I have company in my line of reasoning…

That said - you can't possibly advocate all of this safety gear aboard your boat at once, and if you do, you are not likely a person who goes out in conditions that will warrant their use - which is the diabolical nature of the whole thing.

Military/Coast Guard outfits may very well have ugly colored boats loaded with safety gear, but hey, they have to be prepared for the worst, and don't really have a choice of when to go out. They go when they are needed to serve. For that, we should all be thankful.

posted 03-03-2009 05:06 PM ET (US)         

How many here are going to paint their boat`s bottom a different color than blue or black. How many choises are there in bottom paint. Maybe red?

posted 03-03-2009 07:08 PM ET (US)            

I think that many of us have gone out on days when we should have left the boat on the trailer. Stuff happens and I hope it doesn't catch any of us by surprise.

posted 03-03-2009 07:36 PM ET (US)            

http://www.d7publicaffairs.com/clients/crisis_586/121411.JPG

http://www.d7publicaffairs.com/clients/crisis_586/121412.JPG

http://www.d7publicaffairs.com/clients/crisis_586/121413.JPG

You can also view a short video recording (with audio but only a tone, no actual sound of the recording) which has been widely seen on other media:

View:
http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_itemId=483360

Download:
http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem& g2_itemId=483360

posted 03-03-2009 10:32 PM ET (US)            

As soon as the basket is aloft, the helicopter breaks the hover and moves off from the cutter below. Having flown (as a passenger) a few times in a rotary wing aircraft (such as a Bell Jet Ranger), my understanding is the hover takes the most engine power and is difficult for the pilot to maintain.

posted 03-03-2009 10:51 PM ET (US)            

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article980720.ece

posted 03-04-2009 04:04 AM ET (US)            

Anchors can flip boats and kill people. The Tampa Bay story confirms the boat flipped when they were pulling the anchor. I learned all I ever needed to know about the dangers of anchors when I lived in Oregon and ran rivers in drift boats. It was not uncommon to hear about some dude trying to save his anchor winding up losing his boat. Specifically, they would anchor up in fast water, often with some heavy, claw thing and the boat would start oscillating back and forth until it scooped in water swamping it and that would be about it. Metal and glass boats were generally gone, wood boats seemed to float better when swamped.

Experienced boaters AWAYS had a knife ready, usually inverted in a quick release scabbard fixed to their PFD. My Gerber dive knife with that scabbard is right next to the console in my 13 right now. I know exactly where it is and if I got a bit wild on my own w/ that boat, I'd put on the PFD, clip the kill switch on, and fix the knife to the straps.

Those of us back in the day who ran white water took similar precautions, spare oar and oar lock, proper PFD, knife at the ready. One of the most famous builders out there kept a knife ready in the side pocket next to the oarsman's seat. 100% of the time.

We learned to sacrifice the anchor, cut it first, think later in sketchy conditions.

What blew my mind were dudes who would take all the precautions, proper anchor release etc, but tie the end of the anchor rope to the gunwhale to keep from losing the anchor.

posted 03-04-2009 12:04 PM ET (US)            

http://www.acrelectronics.com/product2.aspx?sku=2797.4NH

posted 03-04-2009 12:45 PM ET (US)            

Does your EPIRB continue to transmit after deployment? I was told that there are basically two types of EPIRB, an initial transmitter, that deploys on water contact and sends a single signal location.

The other type functions the same way, except it continues to signal at intervals, as you drift. As an example, if you were separated from the boat, the EPIRB is clipped to you (your PFD) the signal continues regardless of where you drift so that the updated transmission reflects where you are not where you went down.

If I have gotten this wrong, please correct me. I am in the market for an EPIRB.

posted 03-04-2009 01:15 PM ET (US)            

Read this for more info:

posted 03-04-2009 01:39 PM ET (US)         

No kidding, I would get this. I am not affiliated with the seller.

posted 03-04-2009 01:53 PM ET (US)            

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/cgcomms/charts/07stpetn.jpg

posted 03-04-2009 02:03 PM ET (US)            

A battery operated personal strobe would have been a godsend at that moment. Or a VHF Marine Band rescue radio that was waterproof.

The ACR ELECTRONICS company manufactures and sells many devices of this type.

posted 03-04-2009 02:54 PM ET (US)            

Is at the time they were attempting to retrieve the anchor the seas had build to a dangerous point and it was getting dark fast. But still no one onboard appeared to fear they were in an extremis situation. Not one had a life jacket on and no call to the Coast Guard was made.

posted 03-04-2009 05:24 PM ET (US)            

Also - WHERE the anchor was tied off may have something to do with it...if it were tied to a cleat instead of the bow eye, would that make a difference or not really?

I do not know. I do know that I've been anchored in a 16 ft. wooden boat in 4' seas fishing for Walleye - no exaggeration - and it was almost impossible to get that little anchor up - my dad and I were just ready to cut the rope and prepare to write a check to the fishing lodge in Canada when it FINALLY came free with about 70 lbs of weeds and mud attached. WE buried the bow twice in that operation, but fortunately the boat was designed with a little 3' deck that shed most of the water before it came aboard...and dad had a coffee can and was bailing fast.

Three big guys at the bow heaving on an anchor line in 8' seas would put the nose of a Whaler down through the waves too...at least, on my 18' Outrage it would.

...but that water would essentially just wash right back out of the boat over the notched transom. I know this, because I've had blue water break over the bow of my Outrage and bury my feet to my ankles as it washed back to the transom dam, and up and over into the splashwell...

If the anchor did not come up soon, even a Whaler would have been at major risk of capsizing. The solution in this situation is obviously to cut the line...but the question remains - will you have enough wits about you to do this in time?

posted 03-04-2009 06:37 PM ET (US)         

Read: http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia

posted 03-04-2009 07:00 PM ET (US)            

All of the talk about blunt bows vs sharp bows, that boat they were in is a good boat. It was improperly handled.

It is a huge loss that three fine men are gone. I will be purchasing a strobe, submersible lights, emergency location beacons and better life jackets.

posted 03-04-2009 07:33 PM ET (US)         

http://www.evergladesboats.com/boats/210cc.php

posted 03-04-2009 07:44 PM ET (US)            

--the boat inverted and riding to an anchor line

--the anchor line made fast to a cleat mounted off center.

posted 03-04-2009 08:13 PM ET (US)            

I agree with your comment about having an EPIRB if you regularly run offshore. I disagree however with your "crap $5 lifejackets" comment. From the photos it looks like Nick Schuyler is wearing either a Type I or Type II lifejacket. The Type II PFD’s are cheap, uncomfortable, and bright orange, but they will keep you floating higher than any Type III made and they are highly visible.

A Type I (or one of the new Type V inflatables) is what everyone SHOULD be wearing offshore. A Type I is designed to turn an unconscious wearer face up in the water and has a minimum of around 23# of buoyancy.

A Type II may (or may not) turn an unconscious wearer face up and has about 15# of buoyancy. Your Evinrude PFD's are probably a Type III and are designed for bass boaters and water skiers and are only recommended for inshore waters where rescue is imminent. The 4 buckles insure the vest will stay on when hitting the water at high speeds.

Most of the high end inflatables provide 35# of buoyancy and will keep your chin well out of the water. Mustang has a new inflatable that provides 40# of buoyancy.

Earlier in this thread LHG mentioned a fellow Whaler owner who drowned in Lake Erie several years ago. His name was Ken Lex and he was one of the most experienced and responsible boaters I have ever met. His boats (an 18’ Outrage and 24’ Outrage) were always immaculate and he always wore a life jacket, sadly a Type III that was olive drab in color.

It is believed that Ken had set his autopilot, at trolling speed, and was rigging his downrigger and simply fell overboard. One of the downriggers was spooled - as if he had grabbed the wire as he went overboard. At 1 to 1½ MPH, it would have been impossible to catch the boat. He was only about 5 miles offshore and the seas were calm. The Coast Guard thought he probably would have been seen sooner if he was wearing an orange Type I or II PFD.

Here’s a link to the 07/26/95 Cleveland Plain Dealer’s article about the drowning.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/91Whaler/Lake%20Erie%20Tragedy/

There was much discussion in the days following this tragedy and all agree that, if you boat alone, have the kill switch attached to your body.

posted 03-04-2009 08:23 PM ET (US)            

Why couldn't these gentlemen afford a bigger boat?

If I made my living by knocking men down, I would know that size matters. The Gulf will teach you that quickly, if you will learn. I have made many trips from Texas to Clearwater, Florida and I can safely say that I have no interest in going offshore Clearwater in a 21 foot Anything. I currently own a 1991 25 Outrage, and I am captain on a 2000 60 Hatteras sportfish. Both are good boats, albeit very different in their mission.

The Outrage is very minimal as an offshore boat. A good solid weather forecast is a must.

The Hatteras is a good sea boat but never forget one thing: Hole her enough and she will sink like a rock.

A 21 foot boat is a poor choice....a choice that is more understandable in third world countries.

My heart goes out the the families of these men, and I will pray for their souls.

posted 03-04-2009 08:49 PM ET (US)            

As to the video showing the rode off the cleat, on my 52 inch Sanyo flat panel it is clearly visible, I don't know about on a little bitsy computer screen.

posted 03-04-2009 10:35 PM ET (US)            

Towing a boat upside down due to a heavy bimini top presents a interesting problem.
Since it could not be righted, if you towed from the bow ring with any length at all, the harder you pull, the more it will want to dive. Probably too rough to winch up the bow to become a very short towline.

Id bet they ended up towing off of one of the stern quarters or used a large tow vessel with strong towline and simply muscled it home.

Would appreciate if if anyone can confirm.

Families of the victims have my sincere sympathy, some things that happen on the water just cant be rationalized.

posted 03-04-2009 10:43 PM ET (US)            

Proof again for those that did not believe it before that "unsinkable" does not mean "upright" or even "survivable". All stability is lost when flooded.

See "Free Surface" definition in any marine engineering text.

Good starting place here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect

Dave

posted 03-04-2009 11:47 PM ET (US)            

I am also thinking of tethering an extra line or two to the bow rails. Both of my longer lines, that you could drift off and hang on to, are off of the stern eyes. It appears that the bow is a bit more afloat and therefore easier to access.

posted 03-05-2009 01:43 AM ET (US)            

For some this may be redundant advise, but, I cant overemphasize how important a knife is to any boat, especially anchored boats.

I have several serrated edge pocket knives I forget to pack in my pockets now and then. When you need to cut a rope on a boat, you usually need it now. So, when I go to Malls and venture thru the kitchen supply area with my Wife, she thinks I am genuinely interested in table ware, actually, Im shopping for serrated edge bread knifes on sale. One is better than nothing, but 2 or 3 is the way to go.

If you end up with one on the dash, one back aft and another stored in your tackle box, you have the capability of safely cutting a half inch 3 strand or braided rope in one swipe, QUICKLY. If you are like me, you could misplace one knife very easily, but, not 3. One of em is going to be where it is supposed to be.

I use my bread knives to cut thru 2" dia blue steel brand poly rope ALL THE TIME. A bread knife cuts thru poly faster than a fine tooth hack saw. Bread knives usually have strong backs and long blades for leverage yet a blunt tip so you dont poke holes in things you dont mean to or need special scabbards to store.

Now I know a lot of the boating purists might consider a stupid bread knife a little tacky, just put one on the boat and see if you dont end up using it, then losing it and wishing you had another handy. Save your pocket edge for other times. The bigger your boat is (more storage) the fewer excuses you have for not having one.

play safe, enjoy.

mk

posted 03-05-2009 09:19 AM ET (US)            

If the boat in this incident was chartered from a commercial boat charterer, there is a good chance the boat was carrying all of the required safety equipment and met USCG regulations. However, I am surprised that you could charter a boat and take it 38-miles offshore. When I rented a boat for a day charter in Florida there were very specific restrictions on where the boat could be used and how far offshore it could be taken.

Let me add another question to the list of unanswered questions:

posted 03-05-2009 11:28 AM ET (US)            

If Mr. Cooper was just getting into boating recently, he chose wisely to buy a high-quality mid sized boat that he could learn to handle. If he had been a lifelong boater and just preferred a smaller craft, there is nothing wrong with that either. This circumstance is certainly unfortunate, but I don't see how his personal wealth has anything to do with this tragedy.

I doubt that many 'wealthy' people in third world countries can afford an Everglades - they are expensive boats on a foot for foot basis compared with other options out there.

I see nothing wrong in the decision to go out 38 miles in this craft based on the weather at the time they left. I do find fault in that they apparently didn't pay attention to, or were somehow indifferent about the deteriorating conditions and did not attempt to return sooner, and then did not attempt to call the Coast Guard to advise them of their situation when they realized that it was deteriorating further.

Perhaps they had plans to hail the Coast Guard once underway to advise them of their situation? Pure speculation, but that would probably have been my order of operations: Start motor, pull anchor, get underway and then radio if I felt uneasy about the crossing. This event will cause me to rethink that order or operations.

posted 03-05-2009 11:44 AM ET (US)            

If Mr. Cooper was just getting into boating recently, he chose wisely to buy a high-quality mid sized boat that he could learn to handle. If he had been a lifelong boater and just preferred a smaller craft, there is nothing wrong with that either. This circumstance is certainly unfortunate, but I don't see how his personal wealth has anything to do with this tragedy.

I doubt that many 'wealthy' people in third world countries can afford an Everglades - they are expensive boats on a foot for foot basis compared with other options out there.

I see nothing wrong in the decision to go out 38 miles in this craft based on the weather at the time they left. I do find fault in that they apparently didn't pay attention to, or were somehow indifferent about the deteriorating conditions and did not attempt to return sooner, and then did not attempt to call the Coast Guard to advise them of their situation when they realized that it was deteriorating further.

Perhaps they had plans to hail the Coast Guard once underway to advise them of their situation? Pure speculation, but that would probably have been my order of operations: Start motor, pull anchor, get underway and then radio if I felt uneasy about the crossing. This event will cause me to rethink that order or operations.

posted 03-05-2009 02:44 PM ET (US)            

I've seen nothing yet that states difinitively that the boat capsized while they were attempting to raise the anchor, or even that they were attempting to raise the anchor. I definitely haven't seen anything that indicates that it capsized BECAUSE they were attempting to raise the anchor.

There are a million different scenarios that could have caused the boat to capsize. Too much weight forward while the bow was being pulled down by a taught anchor line is just one of them. Lets not jump to conclusions just yet.

There are a few points of clarification I'd like to add. First is, I am not aware of any EPIRB that stops transmitting until it is turned off, or the batteries dies. I think some here may be confusing an EPIRB that activates when it is submerged with a device that activates when submerged, and then immediately deactivates. As far as I am aware, no such device exists. An EPIRB that only transmitted for a short period of time would be useless. The reciever satellites do not have 100% constant coverage of the world's oceans. They are not geostationary, and instead "pass over" periodically. A device that only transmitted briefly after activation be virtually useless.

Fancy embroidered watersports life jackets are NOT the right equipment for offshore ventures or emergency situations. Nor are Type I PFD's, necessarily. I've got a full compliment of Type I PFD's on my boat, and they aren't all they're cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong, if I'm abandoning ship, THAT is what I want. But if I'm moving about on the deck in heavy seas, or attempting to precisely control the steering and throttle in rough conditions, I need something that offers a little more flexibility. Enter the Type II. They're ugly, they're cumbersome, and I hate wearing them as much as the next guy. But if things get ugly, and I need to go forward to pull the anchor or secure a line, that's what I wear. They offer good survivability and decent flexibility.

The best knife I've ever seen for use on a boat is the white handled, serrated, short blade knife that it seems all the commercial fishermen here in the PNW and up in Alaska have strapped to their belts 24/7. They're cheap (a couple bucks), can cut through just about anything, including leaded crab line, and are short enough to stay out of the way when working on deck, but long enough to be useful in a Dutch Harbor bar fight.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we have NO IDEA as to the capabilities and knowledge level of the men on board this boat. We ASSUME they ignored weather warnings and went offshore, we ASSUME they didn't contact the Coast Guard when the situation got ugly, and we ASSUME they made foolish decisions that ulimately led to their own deaths. But we don't difinitely KNOW any of these things. Not yet, anyway.

posted 03-06-2009 03:42 AM ET (US)            

You learn a lot of things not to do if you do get into boating after doing SAR cases for that long.I got out in 1980 and it was almost 8 years before I got up the nerve to venture offshore. I just had no desire to do it after so many people lost their lives in the ocean. It really does have no mercy and can take life in an instant.

My first trip Offshore was in a 50 foot charter that was all white. We had a saying, well actually several but a white boat SAR was automatically put into a category of "Hard to find". We wished that a standard color for boats were orange instead of white. Much easier to spot at 500feet above the water doing 200 miles an hour.

Our SAR's were almost never in calm water, nobody gets lost or has an emergency in good weather. 7-20' plus seas were the norm and 20-60+ mph winds with white caps as far as the eye can see. You sit sideways looking out thru a window about 2X3feet in a seat that starts out pretty comfy but turns to concrete after about 3 hours of staring out that window. SAR's can last up to 10+ hours in a C-130. It is excruciatingly boring, but it is your job to find these people. You would want them to look for you that way if you or your loved ones were out there floating in hell.

We had another saying and remember this was back in the mid 70's. Whalers were used by most CG stations. We had a 21 Outrage for aircraft rescue for our own planes at the Air Station in Elizabeth City. That saying was if was a Boston Whaler train you eyes to look for the boat, any other boat look for debris. Debris was always in the ocean. Back then much garbage was thrown overboard by ships including Navy, Coasties, freighters and anyone looking to cleanup the boat a bit. It happened back then.

It's sad to say that out of the countless SAR's that I went on, I only found one survivor, just one. I knew other Coasties that had 90% finds but I was not that lucky. You at least 4 sets of eyes looking out for any sign of life. but it is very hard to find someone floating in the water with just head and shoulders above the water flying at 200MPH at 500 feet or higher. If you hold a pencil eraser at arms length and move it quickly in front from left to right, it looks about like that from 500 feet. If wearing an orange life jacket it's a little easier. You can't see the whole jacket, just the shoulders of it.

Here's my list of things that I carry.
Strobe light SDU-5/E with adapter to take CR-123 batteries with a 36inch line attached to my body
[urlhttp://www.prc68.com/P/5BA.html[/url]
http://www.prc68.com/I/SDU5E.shtml

Handheld ICOM VHF

handheld GPS

whistle

survival suit when water temps are below 60 degrees

If I were to paint the bottom, it would be red. White and blue bottoms are hardest to spot. I have reflective tape on the stern and topside and I have bought more that will go on the bottom. I use the red and white DOT Approved because of it's brightness and it will stick and last. I cut the red section off and use it on the trailer.
Red throw ables are a must. forget about how color coordinating the blue or white looks. Red or orange is better. It is a piece of emergency equipment, make it look that way. I'm putting snap fasteners on mine and replacing the cushion on the front cooler with 2 red throw ables. Always stick with the boat unless it is on fire. If it is on fire stay as close as possible(fire and smoke is easy to find) and when the fire goes out when it burns to the waterline, swim back to what is left and wait for the Coasties to show up.

The sea is dangerous at best, it will take you fast, be prepared for the worst and the right gear it will get you back home. Never relax, never turn your back to the sea, it will sneak up and get you while you take a break and enjoy the view. Be on the lookout for any rogue waves. They are out there waiting for your guard to go down. I still enjoy the water and sometimes I fish when I should be at home but I do exercise caution. The ocean is my place, My ashes will be scattered off of Bodie Island Lighthouse in Dare county a mile or two offshore. Just making plans for the very distant future. I have many fish to catch. I've shed tears for these 3 guys that I've never met but probably shared the same passion for sport fishing. Give it time and the whole story will come out. In the mean time, say a prayer for the ones still out there and their families as well.

posted 03-06-2009 07:29 AM ET (US)            

http://www.luffshack.com/Whaler/PFDS.JPG

Type 1 commercial offshore, with ACR strobe, and tethered mirror and whistle. We eventually bought a handheld VHF in addition to the fixed unit on board. The outboard motor kill switch tether was definitely fastened to mine.

We always had four fenders attached to the railings, flipped inside the gunnels, as well as four dock lines on the cleats. We also carried a 4-pack of orange Type IIs under the console should we have guests or come across those who needed them.

Bulky Type 1s aren't practical on a sailboat, with all the rigging, so these days we use Mustang auto-inflatables with built-in harness and D-rings. The one thing we each should have but don't, especially on a sailboat, is the serrated knife--blunt tip especially with inflatables!

This has been a very sad episode, one of the many throughout history, and the many yet to come--preventable.
--
Moe

posted 03-06-2009 02:24 PM ET (US)            

Sadly, arrogance or ignorance tragically cost 3 young men their lives in an incident that needn't have happened.

posted 03-06-2009 11:43 PM ET (US)            

I have to wonder if overloading played roll in this incident. While the boat is rated for 3400 lb. max., one could guess that the total load was at least 85% at the time of this incident, possibly higher.(it appears in one of the pictures that there may have been an additional live well)

posted 08-19-2009 01:39 PM ET (US)            

That shows some of the real heartache in this tragedy.

The shiniest polished chrome anchor is not worth the life of your friend. Cut it loose.