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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area Florida Boaters Missing
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Author | Topic: Florida Boaters Missing |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 03-01-2009 02:39 PM ET (US)
[This article had no content but redirected readers to another website.] |
seabob4 |
posted 03-01-2009 04:13 PM ET (US)
Steve, As you know, it is a nasty day down here. When that front came through this morning, the wind was absolutely whipping. I've got to imagine offshore the waves were 8-10. I've been monitoring this story, but it doesn't look good, not after this long. Between the air temp and the water temp... Buenos Suerte... |
gigem |
posted 03-01-2009 05:56 PM ET (US)
They are now saying that the boat was an Everglades... |
R T M |
posted 03-01-2009 06:21 PM ET (US)
Not a good weekend to be offshore fishing. Temp here was in low 60`s early this morning, before the front moved through with 30mph gusts and heavy rain. Soon the temps were in the high 40`s. Just plain nasty. Yesterday morning was not bad though, so I could see why some went out fishing, Almost thought about taking the 13 footer out for a short test run but the weather deteriorated quickly in the afternoon. Hope this works out OK for them. rich(Binkie) |
Yiddil |
posted 03-01-2009 06:33 PM ET (US)
“A 21-foot boat is a relatively small vessel to be 50 miles off shore in bad weather conditions, certainly the current weather conditions,” If you go out in a SCA< SMALl Craft Advisory in a 20 foot boat or less your a problem looking to happen. AS the person in charge of a "Swim Event" last june, we cancelled the Safety support fleets participation in the event because of SCA. Most every boat was less than 21 feet. A few boats, one a 16 the other a 42 did go out and assist swimmers who wanted to swim that event anyway, but I thought it a bad idea then and I still say its a risky business even today. The boaters were very experienced and handled it well, but the rest with less bad weather experience stayed in, and rightfuly so. I hope they make it, but .....why chance it in the forst place......I always say "Its not nice to try and fool mother nature, you always loose that bet"...Henry |
fourdfish |
posted 03-01-2009 08:37 PM ET (US)
The waves that are coming in here today are really large. The wind is still high. I think that if they are still upright, they are really having a bad time. It is also getting cold out there. I would not be optimistic. BTW Bob and Rich, Anna Maria is a really neat place. |
DBOutrage17 |
posted 03-01-2009 08:44 PM ET (US)
I found a news story where the Coast Guard said it was an Everglades boat. Other stories said it was a 21 foot center console with a single engine. |
Tom W Clark |
posted 03-01-2009 09:43 PM ET (US)
Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. Everglades makes a 21 foot center console that can be powered with a single outboard up to 250 HP. Marquis Cooper is a University of Washington alumnus. |
DBOutrage17 |
posted 03-01-2009 09:57 PM ET (US)
Sorry-that was poorly written. The quote from the Coast Guard said Everglades was the manufacturer of the boat. Other stories said it was single engine and a center console. So putting them together it is probably an Everglades 21 CC with one engine. |
R T M |
posted 03-01-2009 10:32 PM ET (US)
Is Everglade boats foam core like Whaler? Unsinkable? rich(Binkie) |
fourdfish |
posted 03-01-2009 11:27 PM ET (US)
Rich, Everglades does bill their boat as unsinkable but I do not know if it is foam core! Still no word but Coast Guard is still looking. |
lizard |
posted 03-02-2009 10:40 AM ET (US)
FROM THE EVERGLADES SITE: RAMCAP Construction RAMCAP (Rapid Molded Core Assembly Process) bonds the hull, deck and structural core together under extreme pressure to deliver a truly unsinkable boat that will sustain its integrity in the roughest sea conditions. In addition to providing incredible stability and unsinkability, RAMCAP eliminates air voids between the deck and hull, giving every Everglades more interior room and exceptional fit and finish. A further guarantee of the boats' quality is Everglades Boats 10-year transferable limited hull warranty. What is the difference between RAMCAP and conventional fiberglass boat building? The question is were they in the older model bay boat (2-3 years old) or the newer offshore boat (new this past year), big difference in hull design. They are billed as unsinkable. |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-02-2009 11:10 AM ET (US)
I am less than 30 miles south of where they launched. You would have to be friggin nuts to stick 4 football players in a 21' CC and go offshore yesterday. Plenty of good fishing inshore when it is nasty out. There was a gust about 11am that was so strong it blew my hot tub cover 1/2 off in my lanai...never happened in 10+years. I hope they are Ok or at least stuck with the boat. 2 guys were ex Bucs players, One a Lions and 1 a Raiders I believe. |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-02-2009 11:15 AM ET (US)
Sorry I did not know they went out Saturday. Saturday was very nice but a tad breezy. By noon it started to kick up and by evening it was an easy 10-15. |
frontier |
posted 03-02-2009 11:25 AM ET (US)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all small boats under 22' HAVE to be unsinkable by law. What makes Boston Whaler unique is they float level when swamped. BIG difference. Most, if not all, others will not sink when swamped, but all you've got to hold on to is the pointy bow bobbing up and down in the water. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-02-2009 11:27 AM ET (US)
This is the Everglades model they were reported to be in .... stern is very similar to the 210 Outrage. With that said you don't venture 20 - 50 miles offshore without one of these onboard that's ready to use at all times. Unsinkable is a great feature but hanging on to a boat for any length of time in 3 + feet seas is very difficult. Sad story for sure. Tom |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-02-2009 11:27 AM ET (US)
Everglades are not a Bayliner, they will float. The main problem with staying with the boat is the fuel leaks out and burns the passengers who then try and stay AWAY from the boat and then can never catch up to it, etc. I do not think it would be easy to climb atop an inverted 21 boat with out it rolling over again, etc. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-02-2009 11:47 AM ET (US)
The law states level floation. Boaters who venture offshore should also carry a sea anchor just in case they loose power. Gives you more options. |
Dave Sutton |
posted 03-02-2009 11:53 AM ET (US)
"Unsinkable is a great feature but hanging on to a boat for any length of time in 3 + feet seas is very difficult."
You cannot do it without a life jacket on when the weather is *perfect* for more than a few hours. When it's rough, the chances of having your teeth bashed in is about 100%. Trust me... getting near an UPRIGHT boat in that sea state would be tough enough. Take this as coming from someone who's picked a few thousand divers up out of the water: Even when the boat is fully maneuverable, and run by a good Captain, it's damned tough when it gets snotty. Getting near a small boat that's turtle in a seaway...... forget it. BEST chance of survival for those who care about these things is a tag line about 100 feet long and PFD's. You can stay afloat LOTS longer by getting away from the boat, yet staying close to it for SAR identification. Then all you need to do is to not freeze to death. Sadly... the water temp, even down there, will be lethal in less time than has already passed.
. |
Peter |
posted 03-02-2009 12:10 PM ET (US)
I hope these guys are OK. Even though the Everglades may be unsinkable, one of the concerns I have with these small boats is the weight of the T-top. The weight placed up high as it is does not help one bit with stability when the boat is swamped. That's one reason I would never put a T-top on a classic Whaler. The advantage of the classic Whaler design is its low freeboard (can't hold that much water) and ability to shed water quickly over the open transom. I think these newer designs with more deadrise, less open transoms, higher freeboards and weight positioned high in T-tops compromises the swamped stability. |
hauptjm |
posted 03-02-2009 12:52 PM ET (US)
A boat was found a few minutes ago, with a survivor. No confirmations other than that. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ ALeqM5ijDA5bgxiHlTvS_r-SSjskS1Tq1wD96M1J7G2 |
Tom W Clark |
posted 03-02-2009 01:00 PM ET (US)
A bit of ambiguity in this report: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/2020ap_missing_boaters_nfl. html?source=mypi |
R T M |
posted 03-02-2009 01:05 PM ET (US)
There is a Small craft advisory out right now, and it`s a nice day compared to the past weekend. I live about 20 miles north of that area and about 8 miles inland. Today is a much nicer day than even Saturday morning when they left, but a little cooler, with just a light breeze. Sat. morning it was windy even here. I very much doubt that they could make it 50 miles offshore in a 21 ft. outboard. In winter the seas are lumpy even on most good days, and with small craft flags flying a 21` boat would be running just under plane with the bow high. the near Gulf is very shallow out to 75 miles, and seas can build up to very steep with short intervals. If they broke down,(remember, only one engine) and had a sea anchor, they might still be in the boat and drifting, or maybe anchored. But that does not seem likely as they would have been discovered after three days. |
BlueMax |
posted 03-02-2009 01:10 PM ET (US)
Boat has been located - no word on the passengers. |
HAPPYJIM |
posted 03-02-2009 01:12 PM ET (US)
Looks like they found Schuyler clinging to the boat. [Dead link removed] I others had life jackets on AND had the will to survive, they will be found alive. The Coasties are good at what they do and will have every asset up and looking for them. |
fourdfish |
posted 03-02-2009 01:27 PM ET (US)
Nick was smart to do everything he could to stay with the boat. It will be a lot tougher to find individuals by themselves. Pray they find them. I'm on Anna Maria Island and it was really hard to survive out there yesterday and last night. |
jimh |
posted 03-02-2009 01:30 PM ET (US)
The concurrent discussion on this same topic has been removed. |
TampaTom |
posted 03-02-2009 02:07 PM ET (US)
My wife went to a weekend motivational seminar last summer and Marquis Cooper (the owner of the boat) was in her group. She had the group over to our house the next weekend and took them out on our boat (20 Mako, not the 15 Whaler.) I met Marquis after wards and he was so pumped about being out on the water and said he needed to get a boat. It's very sad. Praying they find everyone alive. |
Buckda |
posted 03-02-2009 02:48 PM ET (US)
According to breaking coverage, it is apparent that the rescued boater was in good enough condition to tell rescuers that the boat capsized while it was anchored on Saturday evening. So this may have happened while fishing, or when the captain attempted to keep the bow facing the seas by anchoring after an engine failure (which seem the two likely scenarios at this point). I am beginning to formulate an opinion which puts much greater emphasis on using a drift anchor off the bow if I experience engine trouble offshore - even if I can anchor with the boat's anchor. Here is another question that comes to mind. As these were all football players, and two were NFL football players, it lends me to think that they are beefy guys - four beefy guys in a 21 foot boat in rough seas - doesn't sound like the most stable platform. If they were all tossed to one side of the boat by a wave, and a second wave came at the boat, it is very possible that it was rolled (perhaps they were in the stern of the boat bailing water/spray that had come aboard from being anchored in tough seas like that). Whalers may be unsinkable, but they do capsize like this Everglades did. I know my 18' Outrage is very sensitive to lateral trim when you have beefy people aboard. Keeping the engine running is considered job 1 on my boat! I'm going to make an appointment with my mechanic for a once-over this spring to make sure everything is in tip-top shape... |
BlueMax |
posted 03-02-2009 03:01 PM ET (US)
[Pointed to another website to get information.] |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-02-2009 03:09 PM ET (US)
For those who have never been on the Gulf, it is a lot like the great lakes when it gets snotty. I was in Chicago when windy and compared it a lot like the Gulf under similar winds. It can get tall but it is chop and very close together. Unlike the Atlantic where you might have waves hundreds of feet apart, it can be a constant bashing out here. A rogue wave that crashes over the bow and throws the crew might be follwed up so quick that you have not had a chance to get situated yet before the next strike. Not fun and hence why I don't go out far, even on nice days. |
R T M |
posted 03-02-2009 03:24 PM ET (US)
Its a good idea to carry a sea anchor when fishing offshore. Many fishing in the Gulf don`t becuase they rarely fish in water deeper than 40 ft. (thats about 30 miles offshore) I`m sure most boats fishing on the Atlantic side carry them. In the Gulf at least in Florida the wind is always onshore, and you will drift closer to shore. Swamping is possible when anchored in high seas. Years ago when fishing a tarpon tournament off Sanibel the fleet of tournament boats, about 15, was anchored up about 2-3 miles off Sanibel. It was a nasty rainy spring day and no one would have been out there, except they decided to hold the tournament anyway, and the entry fee was expensive. Even that close to shore the waves got to be 4-5 and very close together as we were only in 20 feet of water. Everyone was anchored, and some started taking green water over the bow. It seemed the boats with the sharpest bows were doing the worst. My 24` Aquasport with its shallow bow was doing alright just slapping the waves but I had to continuously run the bilge pump just from the spray. About 100 yards away was a 21` Seacraft that was continually taking green water over the bow. It was a charter boat with paying customers. the boat had no or only a small splashwell in the stern, and the water built up there until the stern went down and the boat rolled, and spilled the people out. They were all wearing lifejackets, I think everyone in the fleet was, It was to rough to get an anchor up to help, couldn`t even power up on the anchor. A boat close by cut his anchor line and a 31 Bertram was able to get his up with his electric winch and go over and pick up the people. Eventually the seas subsided abit, and the Bertram pulled the Seacraft to shore. the CG was never needed. rich(Binkie) |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-02-2009 04:14 PM ET (US)
When I'm underway whether inshore or offshore I always have two 25' coiled docklines attached to my forward port and starboard deck cleats just in case the boat turns over. These lines give me away to keep my crew with the boat. My PFD's all have tethers attached to their waist belts that are stored in pouches attached to the belts. Another way to keep everyone together and secured to the boat. You just never know! Tom |
Buckda |
posted 03-02-2009 04:26 PM ET (US)
Tom - That is a great idea. I often keep my bow line secured to the mid-ships cleat, but that is usually just because I single-hand the boat often, and it helps when docking. That said, I usually have my dock lines (each 25 feet long) attached to cleats. If the boat capsized, MUCH would dump out of the coolers and dive for the bottom, I'm afraid, but those two dock lines would be available, and could be lashed across the overturned hull to provide some kind of hand-hold. The first photo released from the coast guard shows the survivor whom they found with the boat clinging to the "leg" of the inverted outboard at the stern of the boat. The boat is actually floating quite well even with his weight back there, but he is not dry and comfortable on the keel. The good thing is that he is wearing a pfd - so he must have either already been wearing it when the boat capsized, or was able to get to it after the boat went over. Hopefully the other men were also able to get pfd's and can be found very soon before hypothermia and dehydration take their toll. God bless these guys and their families in this trying time. |
Buckda |
posted 03-02-2009 05:19 PM ET (US)
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R T M |
posted 03-02-2009 05:30 PM ET (US)
I assume the boat was still anchored when found. Hopefully the others are in the area and wearing pfds rich(Binkie) |
elaelap |
posted 03-02-2009 05:34 PM ET (US)
Yikes! In fact, double-yikes! Only six or seven fathoms depth thirty miles offshore...out here on the Pacific coast north of San Francisco we're in over 100 feet of water a mile or so out, and 400+ feet a dozen miles offshore. I can only imagine what sort of problems are caused by that shallow, gently shelving underwater geography when the weather kicks up a little. Anchoring a 21-ft motorboat in shallow water in lumpy seas with a stiff breeze blowing is perhaps the very worst possible tactic--one to be employed only in extremis, like a hundred yards off some gnarly lee shore rocks with wind and waves driving one's boat toward certain disaster. If the motor in fact failed, and there was no sea anchor/drogue to deploy, much, much better than anchoring would have been to just let the boat drift and assume its own most comfortable position relative to the swells and wind. And I'd get those huge guys down on the deck, sitting or better yet lying down. And I'd cobble together some sort of drogue, using a bait box, cooler chest, a bunch of weighted throw cushions, whatever, and run it off the bow with my anchor line--NO ANCHOR ATTACHED. Yikes! What a waste. Tony --Of course, we're all making huge assumptions about the cause of this loss. Who knows--maybe the boat just got flipped by a rogue wave or hit some flotsam or got hit by a whale. The survivor's story will be very interesting indeed. |
L H G |
posted 03-02-2009 05:56 PM ET (US)
If they were anchored, the 4-stroke engine probably wasn't running. But Tony is right, they never should have remained anchored in those conditions. Unless they anchored because the engine failed? What engine? |
R T M |
posted 03-02-2009 06:31 PM ET (US)
From the look of that cobalt blue water in the pictures I think they were out at least 50 miles where the water starts to get deep, 125-150'. Takes a lot of line to anchor that deep. I never would go out that far, but the fishing is supposed to be better. rich(Binkie) |
home Aside |
posted 03-02-2009 06:46 PM ET (US)
First off I hope luck is with them and they are found drifting safely wearing PFD's There were 4 very large individuals on board that Everglades 21, I'm interested in what types of PFD's were in use/on board. I'm 5'9" & was 225 at my heaviest a Size XL Type 1 PFD (May West) fit me snugly. A couple of these guys were in the 6'3"-6'5" 230 - 250 lb Range, which brings to mind the question, even if they had PFD's were they of sufficient size & fit for such large indieviduals? Pat |
L H G |
posted 03-02-2009 06:53 PM ET (US)
The 62 degree water temp sounds not too bad, but if you're in it, it's deadly. I know someone who fell out of a 24' Whaler Outrage while trolling alone, in 72 degree Lake Erie water, and they said he lasted about 8 hours before dying of hypothermia. They found him floating in his life jacket, and the boat 20 miles away where the trolling motor ran out of gas. If those guys were in 62 degree water, it might be tough to survive 6 hours or so. That one guy saved himself by crawling up on top of the hull. |
Ablewis |
posted 03-02-2009 07:18 PM ET (US)
I just got back from Sanibel and read "Only in America" which had some descriptions of the differences in waves on different bodies of water. Tohsgib mentions the great lakes. I love fishing Lake Michigan for trophy walleyes and my fishing partner and I refer to the big waves on the big pond as "the three sisters". The waves seem to come in 3's and the last one often has the biggest caboose. Maybe its our morbid sense of curiosity, but I think we all have had a trip or two where the worst was a possibility. I have been wanting to purchase a drift anchor for some time for the purposes of slowing a wind troll. I have now learned that it could serve a higher purpose. Thanks for the discussion. |
Ablewis |
posted 03-02-2009 07:30 PM ET (US)
Buckda, Long story short, I have some pictures of a '90 Montauk floating upside down and the profile is a lot higher in the water. However, this was with everything stripped off of the boat (i.e. motor, console,etc). However, I can't help but think that it would still ride higher than the picture of the everglade boat that I have seen. Pictures of the Montauk To figure out what this boat is doing upside down, see this thread. Let's hope for the best down in Florida, but I like the suggestion of having some ropes available for passengers. Staying with the boat is obviously critical. Andy |
Dave Sutton |
posted 03-02-2009 07:32 PM ET (US)
Well, they got one back out of four. Good physical conditioning probably helped. Boat was, as expected, turtle. From the video it looked like only room for one guy to hang onto the engine, which is the number of survivors (so far anyhow). Even in the smallish waves on the scene at the time of the rescue, water was freely washing over the entire hull. Unsinkable boats mean just that... but turtle, they will not offer a place for people. Glad the one guy made it. Dave . |
WT |
posted 03-02-2009 07:37 PM ET (US)
Seems like the 21 foot boat was overloaded for the water conditions. 4 very large inexperienced guys can easily "unbalance" a small boat in large swells. Pretty hard to imagine 3 additional guys sitting on the hull without having anything to hang onto. The survivor had the outboard to hold onto. Let's hope we get some more good news soon.
|
Kingsteven18 |
posted 03-02-2009 07:52 PM ET (US)
The pictures showed the survivor sitting on the bottom with the outboard between his legs and his arms wrapped around the lower unit. |
jimh |
posted 03-02-2009 08:33 PM ET (US)
In the image (shown above), is that the diver sitting on the boat or the guy being rescued? |
sweetrevenge |
posted 03-02-2009 08:36 PM ET (US)
Can anybody tell me what Boaton Whaler, EdgeWater and Everglades all have in common? All were desgined and built by Bob Dougherty. (70's 80's Whaler frown) None of these boats will sink, although some may float better than others. |
jimh |
posted 03-02-2009 08:53 PM ET (US)
With regard to the buoyancy of these individuals as related to their size, another consideration is their body fat content. As professional athletes, their body fat content is probably less than the average guy who weighs 230-lbs. A guy who weighs 230-lbs and is all muscle will not be as buoyant as a guy who weighs 230-lbs because he is overweight and has a higher body fat content. In this regard, the added buoyancy of a personal floatation device (PFD) would be very important in helping them stay afloat for a long time. |
seabob4 |
posted 03-02-2009 08:57 PM ET (US)
No news of the missing 3. It is going to be cold down here this evening (current temp at Tampa International, 49). I'm 3 miles inland and the wind is calm. I hope it is the same out there. As a member of the boat building industry, it pains us greatly to see events like this happen, when some simple preparation and caution would have probably ended up is a pleasant afternoon catching something to put on the grill. We take our boats out all the time to test them, get prop sizes correct, etc. We ALWAYS know the tides, the prevailing winds, the approaching fronts, the chance of weather events, you name it. At times it is just a boat ride, on a glass calm gulf. But we still pay attention to what needs to be paid attention to. Mother Nature is not one to take lightly. Just like my wife. What I stated above my be "easier said than done", but, unfortunately, there may be 3 men who wished they might have done the same... Via con Dios, mi amigos. Bob C |
jimh |
posted 03-02-2009 09:02 PM ET (US)
In CETACEA there are some good pictures of a Boston Whaler boat which spent a lot of time inverted at sea. From the line of the barnacles on the hull you can make an estimate of the water line of the boat when inverted. The boat did not have a motor on the transom or a person sitting on it. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage76.html What I see in the Whaler hull is the stern was awash to the hull bottom, and that is about what I see in the Everglades, even though it has 230-lbs of guy and 500-lbs of motor on the stern. |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 09:19 AM ET (US)
One of the missing boaters played football for the Detroit Lions, so our local media has taken an interest in this story. They're reporting the wave height in the Gulf during this incident at 14-feet. This seems like an astonishingly high wave height. At this moment I can't seem to find my copy of Van Dorn's OCEANOGRAPHY AND SEAMANSHIP, but I do recall that wave height is a function of wind speed, time, and fetch, and to get to 14-feet you need quite a bit of all three. A Navy website has a forecast model for wave height in this area: https://www.fnmoc.navy.mil/ww3_cgi/cgi-bin/ww3_loop.cgi?color=b& area=cent_am&prod=sig_wav_ht Here is the forecast for this morning, March 3, which shows prediction of seven to nine foot waves in the area offshore from Tampa. I assume the winds are diminishing from the maximum during the storm. Perhaps that figure of 14-foot waves is believable. In those conditions, a 21-foot boat would be at risk for capsize. |
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 10:28 AM ET (US)
jimh, I believe the survivor said that the boat capsized Saturday evening or night. The real bad weather occured, at least at my house, 30 miles to the north, just after dawn on Sunday with a major temp drop, from low 60`s to high 40`s rain and 30mph winds that lasted most of the morning. I believe that this was when the 14` waves were reported. With the water depth of only about 65ft. where the boat was found the waves would be very steep and close to each other. rich(Binkie) |
BlueMax |
posted 03-03-2009 10:33 AM ET (US)
My Theory (which means this will probably all be deleted as hogwash) - I believe that, more significant than wave height, is the period between waves and whether those waves are rolling or breaking. I think a boat/ship can easily handle a rolling (or normal) wave of most any height given a sufficient period between them (i.e. not to swamp or overturn the vessel with the next wave in a shortened period), but a breaking wave can exert several tons of force per square yard and do significant damage to a vessel (not to mention crew). I think breaking waves are more prevalent in the shallower waters causing wave height increases whereas the base can no longer support the wave (also a factor is the steepness of the wave in more open waters) - wave height I think as jimh stated being subject to wind speed, time the wind is blowing and the amount of open water (fetch) the wind blows over. The less fetch, the smaller the waves will be no matter the amount of time the wind blows. I think also of significance in waves is whether the wind is blowing against the prevailing current (or maybe that just creates chop - again, I am on my own theory here). It is interesting to note that the water itself is not really moving in waves - water will move with the current, while the wave will move along the water, much like an undulating rope - the fibers do not move but the "wave" does. Sorry to be so dense amongst the true knowledge that is on this site, I am not trying to preach but am "fishing" for someone to set me right on my theory and understanding gleaned from my time as a "passenger" on troop ships. Max |
fourdfish |
posted 03-03-2009 11:06 AM ET (US)
I think Rich was correct with that assumption. Actually Sat morning was very nice and the weather started moving in as we came down to Anna Maria Island Sat night. By Sunday the wind was really high. We are at the North end of the Island and the seas were very rough but I never saw any waves that might have approached 14'. However, they were probably 10 or maybe even 11'. I think that the members here on CW would not let this happen to us but so many other boaters out there are just not prepared. Sea Bob is correct, the care and basic preparation most of do would have prevented this. |
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 11:40 AM ET (US)
understanding gleaned from my time as a "passenger" on troop ships. Did you get to take a look at the waves, I though they made you Marines ride in the bilge, to keep you from getting sick all over the topsides.;) rich(Binkie) |
BlueMax |
posted 03-03-2009 11:48 AM ET (US)
Hey Kids, Let's all sing the Binkie Song (aka The Troll Song): Troll, Troll, Trolliing Dope (Alternate last verses "You're Tweedle-Dumb to my Tweedle-Dee..." - or simply "Binkie is a Dweeb....") ^@^ |
69boo307 |
posted 03-03-2009 11:50 AM ET (US)
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all small boats under 22' HAVE to be unsinkable by law." Darn, I guess aluminum jon boats must be illegal. Better hide mine. :D |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 11:52 AM ET (US)
What lessons can we learn from this situation? Rather than pointing out the mistakes of these boaters (Which is fairly easy to do from the warmth and comfort of your computer desk top), let’s analyze things you can do to help should you face a similar circumstance. Running through these kinds of scenarios in your head when you are warm, rational and comfortable should help you “react” when faced with a real-life situation. Some thoughts: Another thing, which I’m not sure really even mattered in this case, but it is a good idea to hail the Coast Guard from time to time if you are in a difficult situation to. These guys had to have realized that conditions were deteriorating and they were in some pretty aggressive conditions relative to their boat size. Calling the Coasties to let them know you are out there, on your way in and your location is pretty important. I’m not advocating bugging the US Coast Guard as backup when you make bad decisions, but when circumstances catch you off guard or just deteriorate on you, it doesn’t hurt to give them a hail, ETA at what harbor and a follow up every hour or so. Even talking to another vessel would have helped. Consider that captains of sea-going vessels communicate with each other about conditions, locations and other information. Captain McSorley of the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald was in communication with several other freighters the night that the Fitz sank, and he was in regular communication with Captain Cooper on the MV Anderson, who was about 17 miles away. These well-being communications would have been critical to help the Coast Guard locate this vessel on Saturday night or Sunday morning…instead, they have been searching for days. The Coast Guard will make it clear if you are being inappropriate with your communication to them – trust me. Just call them and let them know your situation, and basic information. Then check in with them to close the report out when you get to port. Any other key learnings/takeaways others have pulled from this story? |
boatdryver |
posted 03-03-2009 11:56 AM ET (US)
Having followed various threads on Continuous Wave for the past 3 or 4 years I have the feeling that there are lots of owners of foam filled boats like Boston Whaler, Everglades, Edgewater, Triumph, and maybe others who equate "unsinkability" with invincibility. This whole tragedy, and especially the USCG photo of that sole survivor clinging to the lower unit on that slippery capsized hull should put that myth to rest. JimL |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 12:00 PM ET (US)
That photo provides good reason not to use blue or even green bottom paint.... |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-03-2009 12:07 PM ET (US)
For those who have never fished the west side Florida you can't imagine how things can quickly go south. Fetch plays a very small role with the wave heights in this area. 0 - 40 miles it's the shallow water and wind aginst current. The wind preceding the strong cold front would have been from the SW and howling. It doesn't take much time to build waves in excess of 6 - 8 feet at 2 - 6 second intervals. A 21' boat underway would have a very difficult time handling these conditions much less one anchored. When the front passed the time it takes the wind to shift is very small. From there you'll get a washing machine effect. The same thing happens in NC along Cape Lookout Shoals and adjacent waters. I've seen it go from slick calm to 6 - 10 feet in less than 30 minutes. I got caught one time because I was stupid. The only thing I could do was venture farther offshore where the wave periods we larger and more managiable. Had to spend the night offshore with my Florentino Para Anchor deployed to save gas. If these guys anchored to fish and not due to breakdown they pretty much sealed their fate. It would be virtually impossible to retrieve an anchor in those conditions the only real option they had was to cut the rope. There are many lessons learned from this tragic accident that need to be discussed. Here's an XM Weather picture taken early Sunday morning while I worked on my boat. Tom |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 12:07 PM ET (US)
According to news reports citing the Coast Guard as a source, the 21-foot boat capsized as the crew was trying to raise the anchor on Saturday evening. A large wave hit and rolled over the boat. The crew swam under the inverted boat and retrieved their PFD's. They stayed together as a group for some time. How they became separated is not yet clear, but the other three men drifted away from the capsized boat during the night. |
JOHN W MAYO |
posted 03-03-2009 12:11 PM ET (US)
News on Fox now, one body found near Sarasota, it is unknown if they are alive or not, also unknown if it is part of the boats party missing. |
JOHN W MAYO |
posted 03-03-2009 12:18 PM ET (US)
False report on Fox News,.....maybe they all will still make it. |
Dave Sutton |
posted 03-03-2009 12:42 PM ET (US)
"Hey Kids, Let's all sing the Binkie Song (aka The Troll Song)"
That post is also correct in saying that the water does not move significatntly with waves... each molecule simply describes a circle at it advances, rises, falls, and retreats. Dave . |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 03-03-2009 12:54 PM ET (US)
More insight: http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=101557 |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 03-03-2009 12:56 PM ET (US)
More insight: http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=101557 |
lizard |
posted 03-03-2009 01:03 PM ET (US)
I have been scoffed at on this site, for mandating my passengers to wear PFD's. For me, it is simply a no-brainer. That is why we invested in inflatable PFDs, to make the experience more comfortable. When I bought my sea anchor, my boating friends laughed. The Mustang Rescue stick has been the topic of a recent thread, so I won't revisit it here. Dual VHF (one hard wire, one in the floatable ditch bag), dual GPS (one hard wire, one in the floatable ditch bag), bottled water, weather gear (in a larger, floatable ditch bag, all lines double tethered to rails with velcro straps, the list goes on. I may intend to be several miles offshore, and not 30, but things happen. Other comments in this thread (lines tied across the hull as a hand grab) made me really grateful to be a member of this site. The experience of seasoned boaters has added another dimension to my preparations (I rarely wear a knife, though there are several on board). I need to replace my hardwire VHF so that it interfaces to my GPS for DSC calling. You can never have enough safety in mind. Spend the money, endure the PFD, do it right. My thoughts are with the missing and their families. |
lizard |
posted 03-03-2009 01:05 PM ET (US)
This just in- Schuyler told rescuers the boat flipped as they were pulling up the anchor Saturday evening, Coast Guard Capt. Timothy M. Close said. None were wearing life vests at the time, but they managed to swim under the boat, grab the vests and put them on, he said. |
Marlin |
posted 03-03-2009 01:08 PM ET (US)
Regarding Buckda's post, several years ago we crossed from Block Island, RI to Montauk, NY in a 30-footer after Hurricane Bob. Okay, so that was 1991, which is more than several years ago. The wooden hull had taken some relatively minor damage while at Block Island, and though she seemed seaworthy we were concerned that something might spring loose during the crossing, which was still pretty lumpy. The USCG was more than happy to set up an every-30-minute comms schedule with us, and they checked in with us like clockwork until we made Montauk without any further drama. I wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing again in conditions outside my comfort zone. |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 01:59 PM ET (US)
In the news article linked above, Cooper was described as an experienced boater; which was different than my previous interpretation based on news reports that indicated he had recently been aboard another person's boat and been really excited about buying a boat for himself. Conflicting reports are not unusual in breaking news situations. Does anyone know if he was well experienced in these waters? The decision to go 30 miles offshore seems to indicate he had a bit of experience and was a competent navigator...that can be disorienting if you've never done it before or are unsure of how to use your navigational equipment well. The report that he "watched the weather" was also interesting to me. Given the regular weather reports in the Midwest on the Great Lakes, it takes a little chutzpah to go out on any given day due to "chance of thunderstorms" each and every evening. If you avoided trips based on a chance of thunderstorms, you'd never leave port. |
Dave Sutton |
posted 03-03-2009 02:07 PM ET (US)
"The decision to go 30 miles offshore seems to indicate he had a bit of experience and was a competent navigator"
My read? Maybe it just means that he was inexperienced enough to not be able to figure out that the weather was going to turn to crap (and knew how to work a GPS). Maybe each of us sees what we want to see. Dave . |
Yiddil |
posted 03-03-2009 02:18 PM ET (US)
Marlin, agin you show practical experience and common sense pays off each and every time...Those that feel above that basic common sense and safety preparidness always pay with things more valuable than there money. Opinions about what happened are basicly speculation and nothing more. You can never be assured as to what happened, only the persons in the event can tell you what happened. Figuring out what went wrong will be done by an investigation, not by speculation, or speculation from people here. What color you paint your bow is not applicable to this accident. "Safety Ideas" for boaters" might be a better dicussion then speculating about what someone did or did not do wrong.I am sure a safety discussion or even a pointer to safety courses would be better, (Try the USCG AUx site) and would serve the boating community better then..."don't paint the bottom of your boat a certain color....." How about something about SCA's and what they mean to the boater with small boats, which most here have... First one would be dont go out in a small craft with small craft warnings coming or in affect. The rest would be ideas for complications for those that don't follow this first advisory. 15-17MPH Unsafe for boats under 20' Take a safety boating course or refresher, might save your life one day. |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 02:43 PM ET (US)
Dave Sutton - I guess my read is based on my personality. I would never venture 30 miles offshore unless I had ventured 20 miles offshore many times and was comfortable with the fuel usage, conditions, etc. Likewise, I would never venture 20 miles offshore unless I had made the trip to 10 miles many times, etc. One thing that would "throw" me a bit in the Gulf is the shallow water. Perhaps that lulls you into a false sense of security when out there. I can see how Lake Erie may have the same effect. When out 10 miles on Lake Erie, you can still be in 14 ft. of water (in the western Basin). None of the other Great Lakes are like that - usually 10 miles out means water depth of at least 300 feet and usually more. Strange psychological phenomenon. Henry - What color you paint your hull is absolutely germain to this discussion. If you painted your bottom aqua blue, it would shift the odds of the Coast Guard finding you further against you. This guy is a speck of yellow in a sea of blue. With the overturned white hull, he is a dot in a sea of blue. Still very difficult to spot, but much easier than a single person bobbing in their PFD, no question. In fact, it would be interesting to see if you could custom stripe the keel with a reflective, flourescent yellow paint that would be extremely visible even in low light conditions. You could do a 6 foot strip from mid-ship to stern along the keel that was 16 inches wide and no one would ever see it unless the boat was on the trailer, airborn off of a wave, or overturned, when it's purpose would be fulfilled. Interesting concept. |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-03-2009 02:46 PM ET (US)
Or just paint..."CALL 911" in big reflective letters on the bottom. |
gnr |
posted 03-03-2009 02:53 PM ET (US)
This place would be dead if a little speculatin' didn't go on. |
Yiddil |
posted 03-03-2009 03:39 PM ET (US)
"What color you paint your hull is absolutely germain to this discussion. If you painted your bottom aqua blue, it would shift the odds of the Coast Guard finding you further against you." Dave, with all due respect, thats a bunch of conjecture and speculation and I say to you prove to me that the color of a hull painting added or subtracted from finding anyone at any time ever! They found this guy, they did not find this guy cause he had a white hull.They saw him before or after they saw his hull????common... CG people know thier business and know how to search regardless of paint color... On getting a reflective paint that "glows in low light" I'd say your again speculatating that such an annimal can help boaters. Most boats first off, don't get dumped upside down, second, they dont take 21 foot boats w/T tops out 30 miles, and thirdly, most boaters pay attention and adhere to the wind warnings I just posted. It might be "interesting" from your point of view but it is speculative at best. They have use reflective taps on PDFs for a very long time, to find the people. They don't tape the bottom of 21 foot boats:)))Its not a "best practice " on anyones safety short list. |
Yiddil |
posted 03-03-2009 03:55 PM ET (US)
By the way...I forgot to mention, it does not say you can not launch in SCA Conditions or Unsafe for boats under 20 ft. In fact you can! It only mentions you should not launch in Gale warnings, Storm warnings, and Hurricanes. Marlin and I had a huge discussion last summer about all this...and decided it was up to the boater and his or her percieved experience level. My argument was regardless of experience level, you should not launch in conditions that warn you not to based on the size of your boat the the wind and waves. This unfortunatly is a case where a lauch was made with disasterous effects. On the other hand Marlin was out in SCA with a 16 Daunt. and everything was fine for him. In this case it wasn't fine.... |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 04:05 PM ET (US)
Well, I'd love to hear from a Coastie or another person who has been personally involved in SAR and seeking an individual in the water from a fast moving search plane or helicopter over miles of open ocean. Common sense indicates that in a larger object of contrasting color is much easier to spot than a smaller object. Regarding visibility: Part of the reason fire engines and school buses are the colors that they are is because it makes them much easier to spot...and guess what? People are supposed to be looking for these objects (i.e. traffic) in a SMALL GIVEN LOCATION (i.e. down the road). In Michigan, school buses are also equipped with strobe lights on the roof. Pedestrian crossing signs are now a flourescent yellow instead of the standard yellow/orange that they used to be in the past and the center lines on roads are painted with reflective paint and in some areas, come equipped with reflective insets embedded in the road, or in the PNW, they use raised "dots" that actually stick up above the rain-soaked pavement. With so much money and so many citizens on the road, it makes sense that there is much more of an effort to increase the safety of our nation's roadways, but some of the applications are transferable, and in some cases, it has to do with biology and how human vision works in conjunction with our brains - how we locate and interpret what we see. Excuse me for being so bold to point out that 18 ft of 21 feet of hull by 3 or 4 feet of width might be more visible to a searcher than 8 inches of wet, dark hair and 37 inches of yellow/red shoulders encased in a life jacket bobbing in a sea of 8 ft of heaving ocean with limited visibility. Excuse me further for coming to the speculation that a reflective color on said larger hull might make it even easier to spot when scanning the horizon for something, ANYTHING out of place/different that might indicate a survivor. And please pardon my further assertion that maybe...just maybe... painting your hull to match the color of the ocean might make that task of finding something "different" harder for the searchers - especially in the faint light of dawn or dusk. How irresponsible of me to consider that a possibility and think it an interesting thought that a reflective paint along the highest surface of an overturned hull might actually assist these searchers to find your overturned hull. Finally, I don't know why my rational line of thought above has struck a sensitive nerve with you; but I continue to treat this sad tragedy as a way to evaluate how I can improve my safety protocols, and be prepared for the worst in my own boating experience. Re: paint colors - I'm not saying that the improved visibility mandates that we all go out and paint our hull one way or another - I was (hoping) to have some discussion on the subject. Each of us makes our own decisions on how to outfit our vessels for safety beyond CG or state requirements. Part of that decision process, for me at least, involves evaluating scenarios and weighing costs/feasibility and likelihood of certain events and cost/benefit analysis to inform that decision.
I am not dancing on the graves of these three men, nor am I celebrating the fact that they were in this situation if they are found alive. I was trying to have a discussion about how we can all be better prepared to survive a similar ordeal, because but for the grace of God, we are not or have not been in the same situation. |
pglein |
posted 03-03-2009 04:05 PM ET (US)
Regarding "checking in" with the Coast Guard when you find yourself in a tough situation; for those of us who operate in areas served by a Vessel Traffic Service (VTS), I strongly advise you avail yourself to this service whenever you want to make others around you aware of your situation for any reason up until you find yourself in a real emergency. Example: Last summer, I was making the crossing from Port Townsend in Puget Sound to Cattle Pass in the San Juan Islands. This route takes you across the straights of Juan deFuca. on a good day, they are calm, clear, and the swell is less than one foot. On a bad day, they can be quite the opposite. It's rare to see the swells exceed 5' in the straights, since it is, after all, 100 miles inland from the ocean, but there is significant curren at work, which can confuse the seas and create nasty conditions. I set off in the morning with the expectation of a quick crossing. I knew a system was coming in, but it was not predicted to arrive until much later in the day, and my plan was to be safely in the shelter of the islands before it hit. Unfortunately, shortly after departing, my GPS stopped working. Now, I am an experienced navigator and don't need to rely on a GPS to know where I am. So, I continued on, knowing that the conditions were light, and visibility was high. Unfortunately, the outgoing tide caught me by surprise. First, it kicked up a 4-6' chop that gave the 36' boat a serious beating. This also made navigating using paper charts and radar plots increasingly difficult. The accuracy of my plots dropped to the point where I estimated my range of error to be as much as five miles. And it turned out that my inability to know my exact location, and the strong currents at play put me smack on top of a shallow bank that made the conditions on the surface even worse. At this point, I contacted VTS. I let them know my aproximate position and situation. I advised that I was not in any danger yet, but could be with little warning. They were very polite and helpful. I check in with them on regular intervals and once I was out of it, I advised them that I was returning to passive participation (listening-only). At the very least, this provided me (and my girlfriend) with a certain degree of confidence that help would come quickly if needed. It is important to understand that VTS operators are NOT just traffic controllers. They are real-life Coast Guardsmen (and women) who can call in help just as quickly as if you were to issue a Mayday on channel 16. They are extremely familiar with the area, and know the exact position, speed, and destination of all the commercial vessels around you. They are professionals in the highest regard. If you find yourself in a "hairy" situation that isn't an emergency.....yet.....give them a call and "check in". They won't mind. |
gnr |
posted 03-03-2009 04:12 PM ET (US)
quote: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5214/boatrb.asp
|
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 04:27 PM ET (US)
I tend to agree with Dave, experience counts and keeps you from making bad decisions. You can load your boat up with all the safety gear available, take a safety course, paint your bottom yellow with big orange letters saying HELP, File a float plan with your friends, neighbors and the Coast Guard, and ask them to call you every half hour, (which they won`t do) becuase your you feel you are putting yourself in harms way, and if you make bad decisions because your inexperienced, you might end up testing all the stuff you brought aboard. Could be the boat rolled when they attempted to pull the anchor, becuase if you put a couple of beefy guys up in the bow, trying to get the anchor up, they might have taken a wave over the bow and then it was curtains. A more experienced person might have just cut the line. Of course this is all speculation. rich(Binkie) |
Liteamorn |
posted 03-03-2009 04:28 PM ET (US)
Sadly, the USCG will suspend search efforts at approximately 6:30 pm today. |
Buckda |
posted 03-03-2009 04:55 PM ET (US)
Okay Henry – just remember, you asked…. Does color affect visibility? Well, my post above was based on “gut instinct,” but I figured: “Hey – I have an internet connection, let’s use it!” Here goes. According to Canada’s Lifesaving Society, colors do make a difference in how visible things are in the water. This is a study done in pools with a mannequin that indicate how a contrasting color for the pool bottom makes a “victim”(blue swimsuit, Caucasian mannequin) easier to spot. With the blue bottom, the blue swimtrunked mannequin was harder to spot than on a contrasting “white” bottom color: Here is an anecdotal report that sea and air rescue personnel often complain that hulls are white or blue and floating on a blue and white ocean. This seems to back up my assertion that a blue overturned hull would be difficult to spot – in the opinion of professional rescuers: http://www.answers.com/topic/hull-colors Though hardly an authoritative source, I consider this good advice from a kayak enthusiasts’ site that actually recommends putting reflective tape on your kayak for greater visibility…didn’t I just say such a thing was an interesting idea? Apparently, I’m not alone! http://www.roguepaddler.com/safety.htm Also – hopefully an obvious question, but why are standard-issue PFD’s ORANGE in color? Could it be that ORANGE is a very visible color on the water? According to the basic safety tips on this site, that is true: http://www.discoverboating.com/beginner/safety.aspx Even the professionals at Mustang acknowledge that certain colors are higher-visibility on the water than others, and they have incorporated it into their products: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=608 But since it doesn’t matter, Henry, please continue to wear a royal blue rain coat… The American National Standards Institute really likes the fluorescent yellow color and is recommending that they be mandatory for emergency responders on the Nation’s highways, saying that the colored apparel is “critical” in low light conditions and inclement weather conditions. http://www.ansi.org/news_publications/news_story.aspx?menuid=7& articleid=1374 Also, Navy pilots use dye to help rescuers find them when they ditch into the ocean. The dye is a contrasting color to the ocean and plumes behind them. This is much easier for rescuers to spot than a single pilot bobbing in the ocean. http://www.prestodye.com/sea-dye.html We’re just scratching the tip of the iceberg here, but I think I have company in my line of reasoning…
Military/Coast Guard outfits may very well have ugly colored boats loaded with safety gear, but hey, they have to be prepared for the worst, and don't really have a choice of when to go out. They go when they are needed to serve. For that, we should all be thankful. |
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 05:06 PM ET (US)
Orange or yellow are the easiest colors to spot on the water. It was mandated many years ago by the APBA that raceboat drivers wear orange or yellow helmets, so if they dump their boat they don`t get run over by on coming boats. Works most of the time. How many here are going to paint their boat`s bottom a different color than blue or black. How many choises are there in bottom paint. Maybe red? rich(Binkie) |
Kingsteven18 |
posted 03-03-2009 05:28 PM ET (US)
In football terminology, I'd call it a 'Hail Mary' trip. |
WT |
posted 03-03-2009 07:08 PM ET (US)
Looks like we can all learn from the mistakes of others. I think that many of us have gone out on days when we should have left the boat on the trailer. Stuff happens and I hope it doesn't catch any of us by surprise. Warren |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 07:36 PM ET (US)
If you would like to see the original, high resolution images from the USCG which have been widely used in other media, here are the links. These images are very large, very clear. They are the work of an employee of the United States Military or government and taken as part of their official duties and have been released to the public by the USCG; they are not restricted by copyright. http://www.d7publicaffairs.com/clients/crisis_586/121411.JPG You can also view a short video recording (with audio but only a tone, no actual sound of the recording) which has been widely seen on other media: View: Download: The photographs were taken by Coast Guardsman FA Adam Campbell |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 07:37 PM ET (US)
If you open the above images in your browser you will likely only see a small portion of them. They are extremely large images, several thousand pixels in width and height. The engine details are clear. There is a red stripe on the gear case. Is that a Yamaha engine? |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 07:40 PM ET (US)
If you watch the video (linked above), take note of how much the large Coast Guard cutter is heaving and rolling in the seas. It looks quite rough out there. |
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 08:22 PM ET (US)
Check out the life preserver Nick is wearing. One of those $7. one size fits all adults, sold at Walmart. Not the professional type that should be on all boats venturing offshore. You have to zoom in to see it clearly. I don`t think the brand of outboard has anything to do with this disaster, though some may question the mentality of people who buy "off" (not Mercury) brands. rich(Binkie) |
fourdfish |
posted 03-03-2009 08:24 PM ET (US)
Yes Jim, It was a Yamaha engine! |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-03-2009 08:52 PM ET (US)
The speculation will be over in short order ... the survivor will tell his story. |
TransAm |
posted 03-03-2009 09:08 PM ET (US)
I'm surprised the survivor was able to sit on the hull clinging to the motor. Because it's a Yamaha, I would have expected it to still be running. |
Peter |
posted 03-03-2009 09:46 PM ET (US)
Yamaha uses a red stripe on the gearcase for the 2-stroke outboards. It doesn't use one on the 4-stroke outboards. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-03-2009 10:14 PM ET (US)
Yamaha HDPI ....... |
jimh |
posted 03-03-2009 10:32 PM ET (US)
I have watched the video of the hoist of the boater off the deck of the cutter to the helicopter several times, looking for a visual signal from the deck indicating they were ready to hoist. I have not seen a clear visual signal, so I assume they must have been in radio communication and communicated the signal to haul in the basket via radio. Too bad we don't have the VHF communication radio on the audio track. As soon as the basket is aloft, the helicopter breaks the hover and moves off from the cutter below. Having flown (as a passenger) a few times in a rotary wing aircraft (such as a Bell Jet Ranger), my understanding is the hover takes the most engine power and is difficult for the pilot to maintain. With regard to the usefulness of an unsinkable boat after it has capsized and inverted, if it offers nothing else, it is at least a good target for searchers to find. I'd rather have an inverted "unsinkable" boat near me when the Coast Guard have aircraft aloft searching for me than to have the boat on the bottom and be floating freely in the sea. |
BlueMax |
posted 03-03-2009 10:44 PM ET (US)
More intersting that he still had his flip-flops on his feet (Rescue Basket pic) than what kind of motor it is. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-03-2009 10:51 PM ET (US)
Here's some info from a Tampa Bay paper .... |
R T M |
posted 03-03-2009 11:01 PM ET (US)
I`m sure the flip flops were given to the survivor, as well as the coveralls he was wearing that said USGC. I`m sure his own clothes were in tatters. rich(Binkie) |
BlueMax |
posted 03-03-2009 11:18 PM ET (US)
Good point - I left out the fact that he was met by a rescue boat and not just the chopper picking him straight up from the sea. |
PeteB88 |
posted 03-04-2009 04:04 AM ET (US)
IT was the anchor.....At least one person mentioned the anchor in this thread. Anchors can flip boats and kill people. The Tampa Bay story confirms the boat flipped when they were pulling the anchor. I learned all I ever needed to know about the dangers of anchors when I lived in Oregon and ran rivers in drift boats. It was not uncommon to hear about some dude trying to save his anchor winding up losing his boat. Specifically, they would anchor up in fast water, often with some heavy, claw thing and the boat would start oscillating back and forth until it scooped in water swamping it and that would be about it. Metal and glass boats were generally gone, wood boats seemed to float better when swamped. Experienced boaters AWAYS had a knife ready, usually inverted in a quick release scabbard fixed to their PFD. My Gerber dive knife with that scabbard is right next to the console in my 13 right now. I know exactly where it is and if I got a bit wild on my own w/ that boat, I'd put on the PFD, clip the kill switch on, and fix the knife to the straps. Those of us back in the day who ran white water took similar precautions, spare oar and oar lock, proper PFD, knife at the ready. One of the most famous builders out there kept a knife ready in the side pocket next to the oarsman's seat. 100% of the time. We learned to sacrifice the anchor, cut it first, think later in sketchy conditions. What blew my mind were dudes who would take all the precautions, proper anchor release etc, but tie the end of the anchor rope to the gunwhale to keep from losing the anchor. Then there's the whole other dimension to this of retrieving heavy anchors safely in big or moving water. The anchor got these guys bottom line. |
HawaiianWhaler |
posted 03-04-2009 06:28 AM ET (US)
In all the preceding discussion regarding cheap PFDs, keeping in touch with the USCG, bad weather, etc. etc. I saw no mention (or missed it) of something they shoulda had as a last resort, something that if they had would probably have brought rescue sooner, perhaps even while they were still together at the boat...EPIRB...when all else fails, the boat is capsized, batteries are drowned, no VHF communication to the USCG, deploy the 406 EPIRB and help will come, sooner rather than later...JMHO...tragic event no matter how you look at it. |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-04-2009 11:47 AM ET (US)
If you are regularly running offshore, you better have an EPIRB, especially if you are a pro football player with $$. I also do not have those crap $5 lifejackets on my Revenge. I have very nice 4 buckle Evinrude embossed ski type jackets and 2 inflatables. When I do run offshore I borrow my bud's EPIRB. I have watched many shows about situations like this and many people lose their will or get dilusional quickly, especially if they ingest saltwater. A cup of saltwater can kill you within hours. Also water disipates heat 25 times fater than air. In 85 degree water you will get hypothermia in less than 24 hours. The gulf is 62 degrees. |
Perry |
posted 03-04-2009 12:04 PM ET (US)
Yea, an EPIRB is a must if you venture offshore. I had to replace my MINI B on March 1st so I purchased an AquaFix™ 406 MHz PLB w/Onboard GPS. It cost me almost $500 but I believe it was money well spent. http://www.acrelectronics.com/product2.aspx?sku=2797.4NH On another note, I was surprised that they were anchored so far offshore. In some areas over here, you go 5 miles out and it's 5,000 feet deep. How deep is it 50 miles off the coast of Tampa Bay? |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-04-2009 12:14 PM ET (US)
They were 38 miles offshore which is roughly about 80-100 foot. Go up 60 miles north and it is even more shallow. |
an86carrera |
posted 03-04-2009 12:35 PM ET (US)
I am sure that they were not carrying enough anchor rode to properly anchor in 80 ft of water, which they should not have done anyway in those conditions. Sorry, but the inexperience/foolishness here is exemplary. Len |
lizard |
posted 03-04-2009 12:45 PM ET (US)
Perry- Does your EPIRB continue to transmit after deployment? I was told that there are basically two types of EPIRB, an initial transmitter, that deploys on water contact and sends a single signal location. The other type functions the same way, except it continues to signal at intervals, as you drift. As an example, if you were separated from the boat, the EPIRB is clipped to you (your PFD) the signal continues regardless of where you drift so that the updated transmission reflects where you are not where you went down. If I have gotten this wrong, please correct me. I am in the market for an EPIRB. Thanks. |
Perry |
posted 03-04-2009 01:15 PM ET (US)
Lizard, there are several different types of EPIRB's. One type is large and sends a signal when it contacts the water. The kind I bought is called a PLB. It stands for Personal Locator Beacon. It can be used for boating, hiking, skiing or whatever you want. It is light and compact and fits in a pocket. It is manually activated. There are 2 types, the one I bought has an internal GPS and sends an updated location on each burst. It also sends signals on 406 MHz and 121.5 MHz. The other(cheaper) model has GPS interface and, if hooked up to a GPS via NMEA 0183 inteface, will send out location on the initial burst then on 406 MHz via the COSPAS-SARSAT satellite system with your registered unique, digitally coded distress signal and also on 121.5 MHz (SAR local homing frequency). Read this for more info: |
R T M |
posted 03-04-2009 01:39 PM ET (US)
If I was regularly fishing offshore, I would be bidding on this. Probably could also by used as a seat in front of your center console if you have a 25 footer or larger.(You shouldn't`t be running offshore in a smaller boat anyway.) Stock this thing with beer, water cheese and crackers, and you could party for a month or two if your boat sinks. No kidding, I would get this. I am not affiliated with the seller. |
jimh |
posted 03-04-2009 01:53 PM ET (US)
I believe the distance offshore where the boat was anchored and capsized has been mentioned at around 38-miles. Compare that distance with the VHF Marine Band radio coverage chart for the local USCG in that area: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/cgcomms/charts/07stpetn.jpg The chart shows the radio range as about 25-miles. This is for a 1-watt transmitter at sea level. Prior to the capsize, if the boat had a tall antenna and a 25-watt radio, you can speculate the boat have been able to make contact with the USCG; however, in a recorded interview I saw yesterday, a USCG officer mentioned that the boat was outside of the usual Coast Guard radio coverage when it capsized. Once the guys were in the water they were certainly outside of normal radio coverage. |
jimh |
posted 03-04-2009 02:03 PM ET (US)
An Associated Press wire report this morning quotes the survivor as saying he saw the lights of a helicopter shining down on them while all four men were still clinging to the boat in the dark. A battery operated personal strobe would have been a godsend at that moment. Or a VHF Marine Band rescue radio that was waterproof. The ACR ELECTRONICS company manufactures and sells many devices of this type. |
gnr |
posted 03-04-2009 02:32 PM ET (US)
Some reflective material on the hull bottom may have made the difference also if in fact the helo was there but didn't see the boat. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-04-2009 02:54 PM ET (US)
The bottomline ..... Is at the time they were attempting to retrieve the anchor the seas had build to a dangerous point and it was getting dark fast. But still no one onboard appeared to fear they were in an extremis situation. Not one had a life jacket on and no call to the Coast Guard was made. Tom |
Peter |
posted 03-04-2009 03:37 PM ET (US)
Since I often pilot my 18 Outrage alone and sometimes the conditions can get "snotty", as they say, last year I bought a Mustang inflatable life vest to wear while going solo. As an incentive to purchase the vest, the distributor offered a free C-Strobe, see www.acrelectronics.com/product2.aspx?sku=3959 . I keep this on-board the Outrage all the time. I think these things sell for about $20 to $30. Well worth it. |
L H G |
posted 03-04-2009 04:29 PM ET (US)
A couple of heavy guys in the pointed, sharply angled bow of this boat, in big seas, could easly cause it to roll over. There was nothing under them to support the weight and keep the water from coming in! Another reason why the broad, squared bow of the 1st and 2nd generation Whalers is so superior in bow design. These sharply pointed, droopy bows of the current Outrages look decidedly unsafe to me in this kind of condition. No wonder they get "C" ratings. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-04-2009 04:47 PM ET (US)
LHG are you in the habit of letting two 200 + men go forward in 10 foot seas to retrieve an anchor, oh, I forgot you drive a blunt nose Whaler so the laws of stability become irrellivant.. I'm guessing your observation is subjective and therefore meaningless. So Evergalade's design sucks to is that your premise? |
sailerman |
posted 03-04-2009 05:23 PM ET (US)
Did anyone else see the overhead shot of the flipped boat where you can see the anchor line (through the water). It appears to be attached to the starboard rail cleat located about 2 feet back from the bow. If this is true, it would pull down on the starboard side of boat as the boat tried to ride over a wave. Any weight up front would obviously make the situation worse. Most folks with anchoring or towing experience in rough waves quickly realize the importance of pulling from the center or even more preferably from the trailer eye. |
Buckda |
posted 03-04-2009 05:24 PM ET (US)
This is an interesting point - did the boat go over while they were attempting to retrieve the anchor (something that would have been nearly impossible in heavy seas), or did they go over just because they were anchored? It will be interesting to hear from Nick when he is well enough to talk to investigators. Also - WHERE the anchor was tied off may have something to do with it...if it were tied to a cleat instead of the bow eye, would that make a difference or not really? I do not know. I do know that I've been anchored in a 16 ft. wooden boat in 4' seas fishing for Walleye - no exaggeration - and it was almost impossible to get that little anchor up - my dad and I were just ready to cut the rope and prepare to write a check to the fishing lodge in Canada when it FINALLY came free with about 70 lbs of weeds and mud attached. WE buried the bow twice in that operation, but fortunately the boat was designed with a little 3' deck that shed most of the water before it came aboard...and dad had a coffee can and was bailing fast. Three big guys at the bow heaving on an anchor line in 8' seas would put the nose of a Whaler down through the waves too...at least, on my 18' Outrage it would. ...but that water would essentially just wash right back out of the boat over the notched transom. I know this, because I've had blue water break over the bow of my Outrage and bury my feet to my ankles as it washed back to the transom dam, and up and over into the splashwell... If the anchor did not come up soon, even a Whaler would have been at major risk of capsizing. The solution in this situation is obviously to cut the line...but the question remains - will you have enough wits about you to do this in time? Dave |
hauptjm |
posted 03-04-2009 06:37 PM ET (US)
Interesting reading from the University of Minnesota. Expected time of survival in 60 - 70 degree water is 2-40 hours: quite a range. Also, expected survival in water over 80 degrees is indefinite. That surprised me as well. Read: http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia |
highanddry |
posted 03-04-2009 07:00 PM ET (US)
The footage I saw had the anchor tied off on a side cleat. The survivor said two of the men gave up, took their jackets off and let go. All of the talk about blunt bows vs sharp bows, that boat they were in is a good boat. It was improperly handled. It is a huge loss that three fine men are gone. I will be purchasing a strobe, submersible lights, emergency location beacons and better life jackets. I saw somebody claim they personally had ski jackets instead of cheap life jackets, ski jackets are not really life jackets and many will not float you face up. |
davej14 |
posted 03-04-2009 07:32 PM ET (US)
There is also something to be said for crotch straps on life preservers. As hypothermia sets in your arms go up and you can slide right out of a preserver that is just secured to your chest. Many years ago a friend saved a life from Lake Ontario after a sailboat went down the previous night. The person had almost come out of his life preserver and it was barely keeping his head above the water. Tragically the rest of the crew went missing. I cannot imagine what this crew endured, my prayers are with those who were lost. It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong. Hindsight is 20:20. |
L H G |
posted 03-04-2009 07:33 PM ET (US)
Look at the detailed pictures here: I can't see any cleat or bow post dead center in the bow for securing an anchor. They must have used a dealer installed side cleat. http://www.evergladesboats.com/boats/210cc.php I don't care if it's Dougherty or not, I also think that's a really terrible looking boat. Boat design is getting out of control these days if you ask me. No wonder nobody's buying. |
jimh |
posted 03-04-2009 07:44 PM ET (US)
May we please have a pointer to the images that show: --the boat inverted and riding to an anchor line --the anchor line made fast to a cleat mounted off center. Thanks in advance for the links or pointers to those images. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-04-2009 07:44 PM ET (US)
The boat was redesigned for 2009 they were in an earlier version 07 so I've heard. Tom |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-04-2009 07:53 PM ET (US)
Here's the latest video ...... http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/pinellas/ Towing_boat_back_030409 |
Backlash |
posted 03-04-2009 08:13 PM ET (US)
Nick, I agree with your comment about having an EPIRB if you regularly run offshore. I disagree however with your "crap $5 lifejackets" comment. From the photos it looks like Nick Schuyler is wearing either a Type I or Type II lifejacket. The Type II PFD’s are cheap, uncomfortable, and bright orange, but they will keep you floating higher than any Type III made and they are highly visible. A Type I (or one of the new Type V inflatables) is what everyone SHOULD be wearing offshore. A Type I is designed to turn an unconscious wearer face up in the water and has a minimum of around 23# of buoyancy. A Type II may (or may not) turn an unconscious wearer face up and has about 15# of buoyancy. Your Evinrude PFD's are probably a Type III and are designed for bass boaters and water skiers and are only recommended for inshore waters where rescue is imminent. The 4 buckles insure the vest will stay on when hitting the water at high speeds. Most of the high end inflatables provide 35# of buoyancy and will keep your chin well out of the water. Mustang has a new inflatable that provides 40# of buoyancy. Earlier in this thread LHG mentioned a fellow Whaler owner who drowned in Lake Erie several years ago. His name was Ken Lex and he was one of the most experienced and responsible boaters I have ever met. His boats (an 18’ Outrage and 24’ Outrage) were always immaculate and he always wore a life jacket, sadly a Type III that was olive drab in color. It is believed that Ken had set his autopilot, at trolling speed, and was rigging his downrigger and simply fell overboard. One of the downriggers was spooled - as if he had grabbed the wire as he went overboard. At 1 to 1½ MPH, it would have been impossible to catch the boat. He was only about 5 miles offshore and the seas were calm. The Coast Guard thought he probably would have been seen sooner if he was wearing an orange Type I or II PFD. Here’s a link to the 07/26/95 Cleveland Plain Dealer’s article about the drowning. http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/91Whaler/Lake%20Erie%20Tragedy/ There was much discussion in the days following this tragedy and all agree that, if you boat alone, have the kill switch attached to your body. Steve |
davej14 |
posted 03-04-2009 08:13 PM ET (US)
Why does this boat seem to be so unstable after it is righted with most of the water flushed out the back? It seems like the fixed T-top could be a large contributor to the instability. It is pretty disheartening to watch it roll over so easily after being righted. |
capnrik |
posted 03-04-2009 08:23 PM ET (US)
I'm 55 years old, and I have been a fishing guide/charter boat captain/yacht captain all my adult life. That tells you right away that I have never had an extra dime to spend. Knowing that I am a financial cripple, please temper your response to this silly question: Why couldn't these gentlemen afford a bigger boat? If I made my living by knocking men down, I would know that size matters. The Gulf will teach you that quickly, if you will learn. I have made many trips from Texas to Clearwater, Florida and I can safely say that I have no interest in going offshore Clearwater in a 21 foot Anything. I currently own a 1991 25 Outrage, and I am captain on a 2000 60 Hatteras sportfish. Both are good boats, albeit very different in their mission. The Outrage is very minimal as an offshore boat. A good solid weather forecast is a must. The Hatteras is a good sea boat but never forget one thing: Hole her enough and she will sink like a rock. A 21 foot boat is a poor choice....a choice that is more understandable in third world countries. My heart goes out the the families of these men, and I will pray for their souls. But I would encourage others to choose their offshore boats with care. |
highanddry |
posted 03-04-2009 08:49 PM ET (US)
First the guys have an ugly boat, then it is a sharp pointed boat and then it is a too small boat, then they were just dumb. Wow, most of you guys I decided a long time ago are not engineers are knowledgeable in boats. As to the video showing the rode off the cleat, on my 52 inch Sanyo flat panel it is clearly visible, I don't know about on a little bitsy computer screen. I think rather than speculating, just wait for the official conclusion. |
BlueMax |
posted 03-04-2009 09:20 PM ET (US)
Sad to see the amount of extra flotation devices come out of the bow locker and console when they attempted to right the boat. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-04-2009 09:54 PM ET (US)
The boat is on a trailer ..... http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/pinellas/ Towing_boat_back_030409 |
towboater |
posted 03-04-2009 09:59 PM ET (US)
According to Blue Pirates news link, the boat was Chartered. |
towboater |
posted 03-04-2009 10:35 PM ET (US)
SALVAGE OPERATION COMMENTS. Towing a boat upside down due to a heavy bimini top presents a interesting problem. Id bet they ended up towing off of one of the stern quarters or used a large tow vessel with strong towline and simply muscled it home. Would appreciate if if anyone can confirm. Families of the victims have my sincere sympathy, some things that happen on the water just cant be rationalized. mk |
Dave Sutton |
posted 03-04-2009 10:43 PM ET (US)
"Video from SkyFox showed at one point, crews got boat right side up, but instead of staying in place, it flipped over the other direction back upside down"
See "Free Surface" definition in any marine engineering text. Good starting place here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_surface_effect Dave . |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-04-2009 11:04 PM ET (US)
All said and done...this would never happen to a 19/21 Banana hull....period. |
lizard |
posted 03-04-2009 11:47 PM ET (US)
We have whistles and flashing beacons/strobes clipped to our inflatable PFDs. Two things presently missing- a signaling mirror and a serrated knife. On my to-do list. I am also thinking of tethering an extra line or two to the bow rails. Both of my longer lines, that you could drift off and hang on to, are off of the stern eyes. It appears that the bow is a bit more afloat and therefore easier to access. My heart just aches about this. I keep picturing the kid diving under for the PFDs and the other two just taking their jackets off. Imagine the dark place it must have been emotionally, to remove your jacket and go. |
jimh |
posted 03-05-2009 01:15 AM ET (US)
There seemed to be some conflict in the survivor's comments (as variously reported second or third hand). The term "drift" was mentioned in regard to the boat, but this conflicts with the reports that say the boat was riding at anchor. Is there any clear report that resolves this conflict? When the rescuers found the boat, was it adrift or at anchor? |
towboater |
posted 03-05-2009 01:43 AM ET (US)
lizard; For some this may be redundant advise, but, I cant overemphasize how important a knife is to any boat, especially anchored boats. I have several serrated edge pocket knives I forget to pack in my pockets now and then. When you need to cut a rope on a boat, you usually need it now. So, when I go to Malls and venture thru the kitchen supply area with my Wife, she thinks I am genuinely interested in table ware, actually, Im shopping for serrated edge bread knifes on sale. One is better than nothing, but 2 or 3 is the way to go. If you end up with one on the dash, one back aft and another stored in your tackle box, you have the capability of safely cutting a half inch 3 strand or braided rope in one swipe, QUICKLY. If you are like me, you could misplace one knife very easily, but, not 3. One of em is going to be where it is supposed to be. I use my bread knives to cut thru 2" dia blue steel brand poly rope ALL THE TIME. A bread knife cuts thru poly faster than a fine tooth hack saw. Bread knives usually have strong backs and long blades for leverage yet a blunt tip so you dont poke holes in things you dont mean to or need special scabbards to store. Now I know a lot of the boating purists might consider a stupid bread knife a little tacky, just put one on the boat and see if you dont end up using it, then losing it and wishing you had another handy. Save your pocket edge for other times. The bigger your boat is (more storage) the fewer excuses you have for not having one. play safe, enjoy. mk |
Newtauk1 |
posted 03-05-2009 08:49 AM ET (US)
towboater is correct in having quick access to a serratred knife. Carry a serrated edge knife on your belt. 10 bucks for a quality rust resistant marine knife. I do not suggest laying uncovered knives about a vessel where they can fall or get into the hands of a child. Get in the habit of putting a knife on before you head out. |
jimh |
posted 03-05-2009 09:19 AM ET (US)
Having participated in a sailing organization where a boat was used in a collective manner and where many people contributed ideas about what safety gear was needed, my experience was that as a collective body, so much safety gear was proposed that the carrying of all the safety gear soon became a burden and a hazard itself. I don't really want to have three knives laying around my boat at all times. I have one, I know where it is stowed, and that will be enough for me. It seems rather speculative to say that this tragedy could have been avoided if only the boaters had a knife. If the boat in this incident was chartered from a commercial boat charterer, there is a good chance the boat was carrying all of the required safety equipment and met USCG regulations. However, I am surprised that you could charter a boat and take it 38-miles offshore. When I rented a boat for a day charter in Florida there were very specific restrictions on where the boat could be used and how far offshore it could be taken. Let me add another question to the list of unanswered questions: --Was this boat chartered? |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-05-2009 10:04 AM ET (US)
Here are some more pictures ..... http://www.tampabays10.com/webgallery/2009/boat-flip/index.htm#14 |
davej14 |
posted 03-05-2009 11:14 AM ET (US)
Where is the information that the boat was chartered? I went back and reviewed the news reports, they clearly indicate that it was Marquis Cooper's boat and that he parked his truck with the trailer at the launch. Furthermore, according to news reports, Nick Schuyler said the boat flipped when they were trying to retrieve the anchor. |
bluewaterpirate |
posted 03-05-2009 11:22 AM ET (US)
Some video of external dynamic forces being applied to boats. A good overview of mother nature in action. |
Buckda |
posted 03-05-2009 11:28 AM ET (US)
Why do you have to have a big boat just because you can afford it? Where is it written that a wealthy individual must drive an expensive car, operate a large boat and have a huge house? If Mr. Cooper was just getting into boating recently, he chose wisely to buy a high-quality mid sized boat that he could learn to handle. If he had been a lifelong boater and just preferred a smaller craft, there is nothing wrong with that either. This circumstance is certainly unfortunate, but I don't see how his personal wealth has anything to do with this tragedy. I doubt that many 'wealthy' people in third world countries can afford an Everglades - they are expensive boats on a foot for foot basis compared with other options out there. I see nothing wrong in the decision to go out 38 miles in this craft based on the weather at the time they left. I do find fault in that they apparently didn't pay attention to, or were somehow indifferent about the deteriorating conditions and did not attempt to return sooner, and then did not attempt to call the Coast Guard to advise them of their situation when they realized that it was deteriorating further. Perhaps they had plans to hail the Coast Guard once underway to advise them of their situation? Pure speculation, but that would probably have been my order of operations: Start motor, pull anchor, get underway and then radio if I felt uneasy about the crossing. This event will cause me to rethink that order or operations. |
Buckda |
posted 03-05-2009 11:44 AM ET (US)
Why do you have to have a big boat just because you can afford it? Where is it written that a wealthy individual must drive an expensive car, operate a large boat and have a huge house? If Mr. Cooper was just getting into boating recently, he chose wisely to buy a high-quality mid sized boat that he could learn to handle. If he had been a lifelong boater and just preferred a smaller craft, there is nothing wrong with that either. This circumstance is certainly unfortunate, but I don't see how his personal wealth has anything to do with this tragedy. I doubt that many 'wealthy' people in third world countries can afford an Everglades - they are expensive boats on a foot for foot basis compared with other options out there. I see nothing wrong in the decision to go out 38 miles in this craft based on the weather at the time they left. I do find fault in that they apparently didn't pay attention to, or were somehow indifferent about the deteriorating conditions and did not attempt to return sooner, and then did not attempt to call the Coast Guard to advise them of their situation when they realized that it was deteriorating further. Perhaps they had plans to hail the Coast Guard once underway to advise them of their situation? Pure speculation, but that would probably have been my order of operations: Start motor, pull anchor, get underway and then radio if I felt uneasy about the crossing. This event will cause me to rethink that order or operations. |
davej14 |
posted 03-05-2009 11:51 AM ET (US)
bluewaterpirate, that is interesting video for sure. It pretty clearly shows how easily a boat is rolled if it is not perfectly aligned when running with or heading into a breaking surf. Several shots where the whole crew was leaning on the proper side of the boat and it still was rolled easily. Years ago a friend and I took our open one man canoes into 3'-4' breaking surf for fun. We quickly came to the same conclusion. Add just a little water sloshing around the hull and it was near impossible to surf a breaker without broaching and rolling. |
Tohsgib |
posted 03-05-2009 12:12 PM ET (US)
This is a classic: |
Peter |
posted 03-05-2009 12:47 PM ET (US)
"I do find fault in that they apparently didn't pay attention to, or were somehow indifferent about the deteriorating conditions and did not attempt to return sooner, and then did not attempt to call the Coast Guard to advise them of their situation when they realized that it was deteriorating further." Nobody has yet mentioned the "elephant in the room". |
R T M |
posted 03-05-2009 02:37 PM ET (US)
I think that if this tragic story had a happy ending, it might have been mentioned. rich(Binkie) |
pglein |
posted 03-05-2009 02:44 PM ET (US)
There is a tremendous amount of speculation in this thread. Too much, really. Some of the speculation is begginning to be accepted as fact, and some of the unconfirmed "facts" are being accepted as hard truths. I've seen nothing yet that states difinitively that the boat capsized while they were attempting to raise the anchor, or even that they were attempting to raise the anchor. I definitely haven't seen anything that indicates that it capsized BECAUSE they were attempting to raise the anchor. There are a million different scenarios that could have caused the boat to capsize. Too much weight forward while the bow was being pulled down by a taught anchor line is just one of them. Lets not jump to conclusions just yet. There are a few points of clarification I'd like to add. First is, I am not aware of any EPIRB that stops transmitting until it is turned off, or the batteries dies. I think some here may be confusing an EPIRB that activates when it is submerged with a device that activates when submerged, and then immediately deactivates. As far as I am aware, no such device exists. An EPIRB that only transmitted for a short period of time would be useless. The reciever satellites do not have 100% constant coverage of the world's oceans. They are not geostationary, and instead "pass over" periodically. A device that only transmitted briefly after activation be virtually useless. Fancy embroidered watersports life jackets are NOT the right equipment for offshore ventures or emergency situations. Nor are Type I PFD's, necessarily. I've got a full compliment of Type I PFD's on my boat, and they aren't all they're cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong, if I'm abandoning ship, THAT is what I want. But if I'm moving about on the deck in heavy seas, or attempting to precisely control the steering and throttle in rough conditions, I need something that offers a little more flexibility. Enter the Type II. They're ugly, they're cumbersome, and I hate wearing them as much as the next guy. But if things get ugly, and I need to go forward to pull the anchor or secure a line, that's what I wear. They offer good survivability and decent flexibility. The best knife I've ever seen for use on a boat is the white handled, serrated, short blade knife that it seems all the commercial fishermen here in the PNW and up in Alaska have strapped to their belts 24/7. They're cheap (a couple bucks), can cut through just about anything, including leaded crab line, and are short enough to stay out of the way when working on deck, but long enough to be useful in a Dutch Harbor bar fight. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we have NO IDEA as to the capabilities and knowledge level of the men on board this boat. We ASSUME they ignored weather warnings and went offshore, we ASSUME they didn't contact the Coast Guard when the situation got ugly, and we ASSUME they made foolish decisions that ulimately led to their own deaths. But we don't difinitely KNOW any of these things. Not yet, anyway. Lets show these guys some respect and give them the benefit of the doubt until the evidence shows us otherwise. |
TransAm |
posted 03-05-2009 02:46 PM ET (US)
You gotta give that guy and his mate credit for staying hanging in there. That guy up front got significantly airborne. |
R T M |
posted 03-05-2009 03:58 PM ET (US)
pglein, Both the Tampa Tribune and the Tampa TV news mentioned that the boat turned over when they attempted to pull the anchor. rich(Binkie) |
HAPPYJIM |
posted 03-06-2009 03:42 AM ET (US)
I spent 11 years in the Coast Guard with about 7 years of Search & Rescue(SAR) split with 18 months on a 213 foot Ocean going Tugboat out of Astoria, Oregon(Columbia Bar, yikes!) and the rest on C130's patrolling the Atlantic from Greenland to South America. You learn a lot of things not to do if you do get into boating after doing SAR cases for that long.I got out in 1980 and it was almost 8 years before I got up the nerve to venture offshore. I just had no desire to do it after so many people lost their lives in the ocean. It really does have no mercy and can take life in an instant. My first trip Offshore was in a 50 foot charter that was all white. We had a saying, well actually several but a white boat SAR was automatically put into a category of "Hard to find". We wished that a standard color for boats were orange instead of white. Much easier to spot at 500feet above the water doing 200 miles an hour. Our SAR's were almost never in calm water, nobody gets lost or has an emergency in good weather. 7-20' plus seas were the norm and 20-60+ mph winds with white caps as far as the eye can see. You sit sideways looking out thru a window about 2X3feet in a seat that starts out pretty comfy but turns to concrete after about 3 hours of staring out that window. SAR's can last up to 10+ hours in a C-130. It is excruciatingly boring, but it is your job to find these people. You would want them to look for you that way if you or your loved ones were out there floating in hell. We had another saying and remember this was back in the mid 70's. Whalers were used by most CG stations. We had a 21 Outrage for aircraft rescue for our own planes at the Air Station in Elizabeth City. That saying was if was a Boston Whaler train you eyes to look for the boat, any other boat look for debris. Debris was always in the ocean. Back then much garbage was thrown overboard by ships including Navy, Coasties, freighters and anyone looking to cleanup the boat a bit. It happened back then. It's sad to say that out of the countless SAR's that I went on, I only found one survivor, just one. I knew other Coasties that had 90% finds but I was not that lucky. You at least 4 sets of eyes looking out for any sign of life. but it is very hard to find someone floating in the water with just head and shoulders above the water flying at 200MPH at 500 feet or higher. If you hold a pencil eraser at arms length and move it quickly in front from left to right, it looks about like that from 500 feet. If wearing an orange life jacket it's a little easier. You can't see the whole jacket, just the shoulders of it. Here's my list of things that I carry. Handheld ICOM VHF handheld GPS whistle survival suit when water temps are below 60 degrees If I were to paint the bottom, it would be red. White and blue bottoms are hardest to spot. I have reflective tape on the stern and topside and I have bought more that will go on the bottom. I use the red and white DOT Approved because of it's brightness and it will stick and last. I cut the red section off and use it on the trailer. The sea is dangerous at best, it will take you fast, be prepared for the worst and the right gear it will get you back home. Never relax, never turn your back to the sea, it will sneak up and get you while you take a break and enjoy the view. Be on the lookout for any rogue waves. They are out there waiting for your guard to go down. I still enjoy the water and sometimes I fish when I should be at home but I do exercise caution. The ocean is my place, My ashes will be scattered off of Bodie Island Lighthouse in Dare county a mile or two offshore. Just making plans for the very distant future. I have many fish to catch. I've shed tears for these 3 guys that I've never met but probably shared the same passion for sport fishing. Give it time and the whole story will come out. In the mean time, say a prayer for the ones still out there and their families as well. |
Ritzyrags |
posted 03-06-2009 04:18 AM ET (US)
Thank You for sharing this with us Jim.. |
Moe |
posted 03-06-2009 07:29 AM ET (US)
These are the PFDs Barb and I wore on our 150 Sport when Lake Erie was kicking up 3-5 foot chop. http://www.luffshack.com/Whaler/PFDS.JPG Type 1 commercial offshore, with ACR strobe, and tethered mirror and whistle. We eventually bought a handheld VHF in addition to the fixed unit on board. The outboard motor kill switch tether was definitely fastened to mine. We always had four fenders attached to the railings, flipped inside the gunnels, as well as four dock lines on the cleats. We also carried a 4-pack of orange Type IIs under the console should we have guests or come across those who needed them. Bulky Type 1s aren't practical on a sailboat, with all the rigging, so these days we use Mustang auto-inflatables with built-in harness and D-rings. The one thing we each should have but don't, especially on a sailboat, is the serrated knife--blunt tip especially with inflatables! This has been a very sad episode, one of the many throughout history, and the many yet to come--preventable. |
R T M |
posted 03-06-2009 08:25 AM ET (US)
I think the Coast Guard`s mission has changed dramatically since they become a major force under Homeland Security. When I was in the CG in the sixties basically our only duties was SAR, and the only law enforcement was safety checks of boaters. They were a friendly force, and always willing to help a boater, even when it was not life threatening. I remember going on a mission to bring gas to a commercial dragger who ran out of gas with his traul down and was unable to retrieve his nets. A couple of days later the captain of the fishing boat stopped by our LifeBoat Station with a box of fish as a thank you. Of course there were the life threatening SARs too, and they had a saying back then. "You have to go out, but you don`t have to come back". I`m not saying that the Coast Guard is less efficient as far as SAR is concerned, nowadays, but in my area of boating 40 miles north of St. Pete, I never see a presence of the Coast guard, and they are next to impossible to raise on a handheld VHF, and won`t make radio checks even on the working channel. Of course my area is not much in the way of terrorist threats anyway. BTW, I never heard of the Coast Guard stopping any terror threats anywhere in this country. It was the coastal drug problems that started in the `70`s that changed their mission into one of primarily law enforcement. rich(Binkie) |
New 2 Whalers |
posted 03-06-2009 02:24 PM ET (US)
Before my retirement Whaler I owned a number of boats from 24 to 42 feet that I ran in the Gulf of Mexico out of Clearwater and would have NEVER taken a 21 foot open boat, as was reported, 38 miles out with a cold front moving in. Unless it was what we call a "go to Mexico" day I never took the 24 out that far. Sadly, arrogance or ignorance tragically cost 3 young men their lives in an incident that needn't have happened. |
Feejer |
posted 03-06-2009 02:44 PM ET (US)
Very sad, I just don't get the whole thing. No EBIRB? No Ditch bag? Even I have room for that stuff on my little boat. I even have (8) 3 inch dia 3M reflective decals on the bottom of my hull just in case the boat to were to go belly up at night. |
190Montauk |
posted 03-06-2009 04:27 PM ET (US)
"Two days before Marquis Cooper set off on an ill-fated fishing trip, the NFL player was casting for redfish off New Port Richey with fishing guide Clay Eavenson, an old friend," reported the St. Petersburg Times. Cooper invited Eavenson to go offshore fishing with him Saturday morning. Eavenson couldn't make it, but he asked Cooper if he had an EPIRB. Cooper had never heard of it, and despite assuring Eavenson he would get one, he didn't purchase one before the ill-fated fishing trip two days later. |
aubv |
posted 03-06-2009 11:43 PM ET (US)
I know 3 normal individuals on our 23' Outrage can cause an uneasy feeling when all three move in unison to one side, in this case there appears to be 4 individuals that might average 250 LB/each. I have to wonder if overloading played roll in this incident. While the boat is rated for 3400 lb. max., one could guess that the total load was at least 85% at the time of this incident, possibly higher.(it appears in one of the pictures that there may have been an additional live well) |
New 2 Whalers |
posted 03-07-2009 09:54 AM ET (US)
An EPIRB has been mentioned costing upwards of $500 (an excellent investment) but for a one time trip they can be rented very reasonably from the BOATUS Foundation, affiliated with West Marine. Hopefully, this bit of info will save a life. |
jimh |
posted 08-19-2009 01:32 PM ET (US)
Nick Schuyler, the only survivor of this sinking, appeared yesterday on an HBO television show and gave an interview. See http://deadspin.com/5340876/nick-schuyler-explains-what-went-wrong |
Buckda |
posted 08-19-2009 01:39 PM ET (US)
Brutal. That shows some of the real heartache in this tragedy. The shiniest polished chrome anchor is not worth the life of your friend. Cut it loose. Thanks for the follow up Jim. |
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