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Anchoring
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
Anchoring
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| Author | Topic: Anchoring |
| cc13 |
posted 03-10-2009 03:36 PM ET (US)  
Is there a device and method can be used to anchor from the bow eye, yet allow the anchor to be released without having someone trying to get to it with a knife? Right now, my anchor is tied off inside the anchor box. This pulls the bow down and sacrifices some wave handling ability. If I move it to the bow eye, then I have the problem of releasing/cutting it. I thought about running the line through the bow eye, then over the bow, and then to the anchor box eye. Would that work, or would that chafe and break the line? Or is there some other method? |
| elaelap |
posted 03-10-2009 03:43 PM ET (US)
I just use the bow cleat, but a thought came to mind in response to your query: Why not let out enough scope, bend a figure-8 knot in your rode, and make it fast to your bow lifting eye, if that's what you want to do, with a mountain climbing-quality carabiner? Tony |
| Buckda |
posted 03-10-2009 04:16 PM ET (US)
It would be easiest to rig a short-line with two caribiners at either end. Clip one end to the bow eye - make sure that the line is long enough to come aboard and clip to your lifting eye when you are under way. Set the anchor and tie it off to the caribiner and send it overboard, then tie the anchor line off at the lifting eye as you normally would - but it should be slack - used as "back up" in case the primary rig fails. To haul in, you simply untie the line from the lifting eye and haul it in normally, pausing the disconnect the anchor line from your caribiner and making that fast to the lifting eye...then haul the anchor. This would work well for lunch hooks. |
| gnr |
posted 03-10-2009 04:21 PM ET (US)
I would think running the line throught the bow eye first then to the anchor box would not solve your problem and might make it worse as now the line is pulling more straight down on the bow rather then at the angle it was before. You need to put a stop in the line above the bow eye so it what is holding the line. You could then tie off the slack end in the anchor box as a secondary stop. It will be more difficult to pull the anchor in as the line will now have tow bends to make as you pull it in unless yuo lean out over the bow which makes the one bend even more severe.
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| cc13 |
posted 03-10-2009 04:47 PM ET (US)
Here is the problem I perceive. Maybe it is not really a problem, but it sure seemed so at the time. We got caught in a really nasty storm,in my 22 whaler. We were broadsided by a wave at least as high as the T-Top. I made the decision quit running and to toss the anchor and ride it out. We were almost taking waves over the bow and i would have really liked to have whatever extra lift/freeboard we could have gotten if the anchor line had been pulling from the external bow eye rather than pulling the bow down across the bow as the line passed into the anchor box. What I have not been able to figure out is how to accomplish both things: 1)have the anchor pull from the bow eye and 2) release the anchor from inside the boat. In rough water, I'm not going to send someone to the front to lean over and cut it. And if I end up hung like the guys in Florida, I have no problem with leaving the anchor. I'm just looking for a way to do it instantly and safely. |
| Austin Whaler |
posted 03-10-2009 04:49 PM ET (US)
let out the scope that you want and tie a quick figure 8 knot then use a quality carabiner to quickly clip to the bow eye. if anchoring for a long time than you can also tie the line to your cleat or lifting eye for a back up just have it slack. |
| SpongeBob |
posted 03-10-2009 05:06 PM ET (US)
It sounds to me like you don't have enough scope (anchor line) out. On a nylon/chain rode you should be using close to a 7' to 1' (rode to depth) scope. If you do you should find little problem with stuffing the bow at anchor. With less scope you may not only stuff the bow but run the risk of dragging anchor as well. You can vary this a little with conditions but not much (if you've got room more is always better). Carry at least 100' rode, 150' would be better. I also would use the norman pin to cleat off the anchor not the eye in the locker. This makes it easier to adjust rode length. I cleat with the norman pin on the 13', samson post on on the 22', and use the high strength carabiner Tony suggests to secure the end to eye in the locker so I won't accidently lose it if I forget to cleat it off. It's easier unhook the carabiner than untie the line in a hurry and it's easy to clip to a fender if you have ditch the anchor and want get it later. I guess you could take a short line and make a loop in one end, run the rode through the loop then through the bow eye and up to the norman pin then cleat it off. You could then pull up on the short line until the rode comes up within reach, grab it and bring in the anchor. To me it's just easier to use the correct scope.
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| SpongeBob |
posted 03-10-2009 05:10 PM ET (US)
Wow I typed to slow. You guys are fast. Forget what has already been covered. Jeff |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-10-2009 05:20 PM ET (US)
I second the use of a caribiner (stainless one please!) to attach the bitter end to the ring in the locker, and using the Norman Pin. Just do NOT use an aluminum mountain climbing one, or one of the cheap carbon steel ones from the hardware store. The bow ring is for trailering, guys, not for anchoring. I also keep a knife hanging off the eye in the anchor locker as well, just a cheap orange-handle commercial fishing knife. It's a fixed blade knife with a plastic sheath. Always there and always ready to use. Cost about five bucks at the fisheries place here. I tied the sheath to the ring with a line thru a hole in the tip of the sheath. Grab the knife and it's all yours, the sheath is a snap-fit so it all stays secure. Not for nothing, I have another one of those knives with it's sheath tie-wrapped to the handrail of the console as well, so I have a knife when standing at the helm or working aft as well. Grandpa taught me 40 years ago that your life might depend on a sharp knife being close to hand one day: You never know when you'll need one.
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| elaelap |
posted 03-10-2009 06:31 PM ET (US)
Dave, FYI--Here's a link to an ad for a mountain climbing-quality alloy (NOT stainless...weighs much too much for climbers) 'beaner which has a closed-gate breaking strength of over ONE TON. Anyway... Tony |
| elaelap |
posted 03-10-2009 06:32 PM ET (US)
Whoops...the link: http://www.rockcreek.com/products/listing/item5395. asp?ref=RCO_googlebase |
| cc13 |
posted 03-10-2009 07:30 PM ET (US)
I confess that I have never really studied the anchor box eye/bow eye relationship. I have always assumed that it's the same rod run through the hull with the bow eye on the outside and the anchor box eye on the inside. Maybe not. But if it is, then I don't the difference between tying the anchor off onto the side eye v. the outside eye, except that tying off on the inside eye is going to result in pulling the bow down into the waves and sacrificing some of the lift of the bow. And I've got plenty of scope. But when you've got 40-50 mph winds pushing waves right at you, I'm looking for all the lift from the bow that I can get. And I would prefer not to sacrifice that lift because of a knowledge deficit or an error in procedure. I'm looking for a solution. I'm not interested in retrieving the anchor. I'm looking for a way to gain the lift by having the anchor line pull from the bow eye, and yet be able to release the anchor line in a flash and get out of there if it hangs or fouls. |
| elaelap |
posted 03-10-2009 08:16 PM ET (US)
Chuck Tribolet--west coast diver and small boat anchor specialist (and a hell of a nice guy, no matter what anyone else says)--where are you now that cc13 needs your sound advice? Tuco |
| towboater |
posted 03-10-2009 08:22 PM ET (US)
If you are using nylon or dacron blend anchor rope, try the following. Cut 10 ft off your anchor rope or buy 10 ft of the same stuff and splice a small eye in one end. Either choke the spliced eye to the bow eye or tie a knot if you cant splice. OK, you should have about 8 ft of rope connected to your bow eye to work with. Deploy the anchor, temporarily secure the anchor rope to the bow bit, simply tie the rope to the anchor rope and slack off the anchor rope til the bow eye rope is holding. Pull in the anchor rope and untie the knot when finished. Google knots if you want, there are many that will work. Basically, just run 3 or 4 tight figure 8s over the anchor rope and finish with a couple of over/under hitches. Poly rope may need a different knot. |
| Austin Whaler |
posted 03-10-2009 09:39 PM ET (US)
I can add another idea. You attach a 6 ft or so line with enough strength to hold the boat to the bow eye, attaching it to a quality caribiner. Then you attach another line about 8 ft long to the caribiner you can tie it off inside the boat, this line is used to retrieve the anchor line without reaching over the bow of the boat to remove it from the bow eye. then when your running you can clip to the interior lifting eye. When you want to anchor you can send out the appropriate amount of scope, then tie a bowline knot attach to the caribiner and release. the caribiner will still be attached to the boat via the 6 ft section of line, the 8 ft section will be available inside the boat for retrieval of the rode. To retrieve pull on the 8 ft section of line until you get to the caribiner unclip the rode and clip the caribiner on you lifting eye. Then pull in the anchor rode and store. |
| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 03-10-2009 10:06 PM ET (US)
If you really want the load on the bow eye (I've never found that necessary), tie off the line to the Norman pin, and then put a carabiner on the bow eye and the line. No need for figure 8 knots. If you gotta cut it, cut it at the Norman pin and it will run out through the 'biner. Alloy 'biners will NOT hold up in salt water. I had a mess I wouldn't anchor to ride out weather. I'd keep it running
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| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 03-10-2009 10:12 PM ET (US)
You shouldn't be using poly line for an anchor line. It's got almost no stretch. And I don't think dacron stretches much either. Nylon is nice and stretchy, like a big bad rubber band, and that's good for your boat, and keeping the anchor stuck, because it reduces the max load on the anchor and the boat.
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| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 07:30 AM ET (US)
Thanks fellas. Here's what I'm gleaning. 1) My concern about chafing as the line passes through the bow eye is answered by putting a biner on the eye and passing the line through the biner. 2) Adding a short section attached to the main line a few feet beyond the bow allows retrieval without having to lean/reach beneath the bow. That section can either be clipped off to the anchor box eye or perhaps even to a rail post (for easier access and because the line is non-weight bearing). Makes sense. Thanks. Chuck, you raise a different topic. I was always taught that if it got really rough, the best course was to anchor. |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 07:50 AM ET (US)
"Dave, FYI--Here's a link to an ad for a mountain climbing-quality alloy (NOT stainless...weighs much too much for climbers) 'beaner which has a closed-gate breaking strength of over ONE TON."
Stick to the stainless ones available from any decent marine chandler. They are usually cheaper than climbing hardware too.
. |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 07:55 AM ET (US)
And one more note: GOOD LUCK getting your hands down to the bow eye to do anything afloat. Just try it sometime on calm water: If you tried to hang over there in any kind of sea you would be in for a real surprise. The eye is essentially inaccessible once the boat is in the water. It's not part of any reasonable anchoring solution.
. |
| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 09:15 AM ET (US)
Dave, that is the exact purpose/question of this entire thread. as I stated at the beginning:
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| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 09:18 AM ET (US)
"You could substitute the word "retrieve" for "release." How do you get the benefit gained by anchoring from the bow eye yet retain the ability to retrieve/release the anchor (because you can't reach the bow eye once it is anchored)"
The bow eye is not designed for anchoring. There's no reason to use it for anchoring. It's a bad idea, and is a waste of effort. Here's the solution: Use the designed anchoring point and go about your business. If the boat is unhappy anchored from that point, you either have too little scope, or you are in conditions that you ought not be anchored at all in.
Dave |
| pglein |
posted 03-11-2009 09:47 AM ET (US)
You guys are not thinking carefuly about the physics at work. Attaching the anchor rode at the bow eye instead of the Sampson post, lifting eye, or Norman pin, will have no impact on the boat's tendency to stuff the bow in heavy seas. The anchor line is still pulling down on.the boat at the same angle, unless you're anchored in REALLY shallow water (1-3'), the reduced height of the bow eye won't make a noticeable difference. The simplest way to reduce this tendency is to increase scope by letting out more line. In heavy seas, you shouldn't ever be setting the anchor with less than 8:1 scope. That means, if you carry 200' of rode, you won't want to set that anchor until the depth drops to less than 50'. Moving the anchor rode connection to the bow eye would offer some slight protection against the possibility of capsizing in heavy seas while anchored IF you are on a boat with a very narrow, high now. Boston Whalers generally do not have such hull shapes because they are well engineered boats and those features are not considered very seaworthy. |
| gnr |
posted 03-11-2009 09:48 AM ET (US)
Dave Sutton, You've stated more then once that the bow eye should not be used for anchoring. Please explain why. Thank you. |
| Plotman |
posted 03-11-2009 10:02 AM ET (US)
1) because it is not safe - it is not accessable to anyone in the boat. 2) because using it isn't, in any material fashion, going to make your boat less likely to "stuff" into a wave. See the next post above |
| elaelap |
posted 03-11-2009 10:14 AM ET (US)
Chuck and Dave recommend against using an alloy carabiner in a marine environment. I wonder whether they've actually tried it or are merely theorizing. I use one to attach my kicker's security chain to my boat's portside lifting eye...not the slightest sign of corrosion in the past four of five months since I got my little Honda 2 hp. Salt water environment. One light dusting of WD-40 when I first hooked the thing up. None since. The 'beaner gets washed down with fresh water along with the rest of the boat after every trip, but never hand-dried afterwards. Works just fine. Oh well. Tony |
| revengewanted |
posted 03-11-2009 11:21 AM ET (US)
The following technique used for Halibut Fishing also works well in most other anchoring situations I've encountered. However I must first say that in very bad weather, unless my engines were inoperable and I was in danger of getting blown on to shore or rocks, I would likely want to ride out the weather with engines running and maintaining control of the boat. But I have not yet been faced with such a situation. When you catch a big hali and have to chase it, you must be able to release your anchor quickly. Stumbling to the bow and trying to untie the line is not an option - especially on a Revenge 25 WT. This is accomplished by using a stout line that runs from the bow eye around one side of the boat and is tied to a strong cleat at the side - or all the way back to the stern eye. The anchor line is then clipped on to this line with a large carabiner, let out, and slides around to the bow eye. Releasing the anchor is quick - just undoe the rope that is tied off at the cleat. As the boat drifts back the anchor line slides off the side rope. Used with the Anchorlift system and a large Scotchman you will never loose your anchor either. This method takes a bit of practice. But I've used it for many years now. Only once was it too rough to retrieve the anchor - we came back for it the next day. Cheers, |
| pglein |
posted 03-11-2009 11:35 AM ET (US)
I agree that the use of a retrieval line and float is a good idea. This gives you the option of coming back for the anchor later in the event you are forced to cut it free. This is in addition to the more commonly recognized advantage of a float, which is the ability to retrieve the anchor if it becomes fouled. Of course, I will be the first to admit that I rarely ever use a retriveal line when I anchor. I have one, so I have no excuse other than simple laziness. |
| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 11:41 AM ET (US)
Once again Dave is correct. I'm not talking about anchoring for pleasure or to fish. I am talking precisely about having to anchor in conditions that you ought not to be anchoring in. Those conditions that you wish you had not gotten yourself into, but you did. You can either drift, run, or anchor. When drifting is not an option, it's too dangerous to run, and anchoring is your best recourse. I have found myself in this position one time in 25 years of fishing in the gulf. That was last year. While anchored and riding out this particular squall line I referred to, I perceived that there was a margin of safety lost because of the way I was anchored and by having to send someone dangerously close to the bow to retrieve the anchor. The post is to find a better method. That's all. Thanks to those who have responded. |
| JMARTIN |
posted 03-11-2009 01:04 PM ET (US)
Anchoring if it gets real bad might be an option in some waters, but in my area it would be about last on my list. I can go hide and wait out the rough weather most of the time. Now, how about a Sport 15 on a buoy? I have been using the bow eye with a clip. It is a reach and you got to have your timing right when it is rough. You can not see the buoy but trust me, it is there. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d137/jmartin-/summer08066-2.jpg Unusual water color for Puget Sound, looks nice and warm. John |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 02:49 PM ET (US)
"Chuck and Dave recommend against using an alloy carabiner in a marine environment. I wonder whether they've actually tried it or are merely theorizing"
I have a few alloy climbing caribiners sitting hanging on my wall because they are corroded to shit, cannot be opened, and I'm too cheap to throw them out. I have a galvanized steel one sitting on a padeye on my inflatable now, rusted closed and it's only there because I have not taken a hacksaw to it (yet).
. |
| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 03-11-2009 02:56 PM ET (US)
"Chuck and Dave recommend against using an alloy carabiner in a marine environment. I wonder whether they've actually tried it or are merely theorizing." I said: "Alloy 'biners will NOT hold up in salt water. I had a mess
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| R T M |
posted 03-11-2009 03:08 PM ET (US)
I think for the conditions that your are considering I would use a sea anchor. They are for designed for conditions where it is too rough for anchoring, but you need and want the bow facing into the waves. A ground anchor is fast to the bottom and the bow will only have a small amount of lift over the waves, however the sea anchor is not fast to anything, and gives you a more flexible lift over the waves. If you don`t have a sea anchor, and it is too rough or deep to anchor just keep the boat in gear and facing the oncoming sea and throttle up the waves, and reduce the throttle on the back side all the time being careful not to broach, takes a lot of concentration, but at least you are in control of the situation. An anchor is not a cure all, to get you out of a dangerous situation on the water. rich(Binkie) |
| gnr |
posted 03-11-2009 03:31 PM ET (US)
I tie up to a mooring using the bow eye regulary. I have no problems reaching over to get a clip on the eye. In the steep chop with very short intervales I often encounter there is a noticeble difference in the amount of water splashing over the bow when attached to the bow eye as opposed to the pin. If I were in a bad situation and I had to anchor in very rough conditions I would not use the bow eye just because I would want better access to get unhooked quickly. However, there are subtle advantages (and yes the geometry is different) to having the attachment point below and a bit aft of the bow. Just like you would attach a string to a kite. Not discounting the good reasons to not attach to the bow eye but the blanket statements being made are not accurate in all situations. It would not be my first choice to anchor up in life threatening conditions but if I had to, and provided I had a method of very quickly getting loose, the bow eye makes a good deal of sense. I just don't know of a foolproof way of quickly and easily getting loose in that situation. |
| pglein |
posted 03-11-2009 03:34 PM ET (US)
If you're going to use a carabiner anywhere on a boat, it should be a stainless steel, marine quality one. They sell them at all the marine supply stores. |
| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 04:40 PM ET (US)
I agree with gnr. Where we boat, I have seen boats swamp because of being tied off with the line over the bow. I have seen it more commonly with boats that depend on pumps. I saw it once with a whaler when the plugs were left in. Putting aside whether it actually changes the geometry (I believe it does) what is the harm in doing it. Put a stainless ring/biner on the bow eye, run the anchor line through that ring, then into the boat. Have a short separate line attached to the main anchor line to pull the main line to you. Easy to retrieve. Easy to cut in an emergency. Maybe some people don't see any benefit, but I don't see any downside. Is there any downside? |
| pglein |
posted 03-11-2009 05:24 PM ET (US)
The downside I see is having to reach over the bow to attach or detach the carabiner clip. Even in calm seas, this can be difficult and result in an unexpected dunk. I understand you're saying you wouldn't have to reach over the bow to get it undone in an emergency, but you wouldn't want to leave a steel clip hanging on the bow eye 24/7. It would damage the hull. That necessarily means you would have to, on a regular basis, reach down there to attach and remove it. This seems like a PITA to me, not to mention dangerous. |
| Moe |
posted 03-11-2009 06:35 PM ET (US)
As several others have said, if anchoring from the bow eye makes any difference, you don't have enough scope. Here's the math: If we are in 30 feet of water with 200 feet of rode and 20 feet of chain (220 foot hypotenuse), the opposite side of the angle from the bottom (the angle not counting catenary) is either roughly 30 + 2 feet above the water if tied to a carabiner hooked on the bow eye or 30 + 4 feet above the water if on a deck cleat. We'll say a cleat hitch takes three feet of rode and an anchor bend on a carabiner on the bow eye takes two feet foot, and we adjust our hypotenuses accordingly. Deck Cleat: Inverse sine of 34/217 = 8.9º 6.38:1 scope Bow Eye: Inverse sine of 32/218 = 8.55º 6.8:1 scope Virtually no difference in angle. Now, in the same 30 feet of water, with 50 feet of rode and 5 feet of chain (55 foot hypotenuse), same conditions: Deck Cleat: Inverse sine of 34/52 = 40.8º 1.5:1 scope Bow Eye: Inverse sine of 32/53 = 31.1º 1.66:1 scope About 10º difference--not much--certainly nowhere near the reduction of the proportion of force directed toward pulling the bow down you get with greater scope. We don't fasten the bitter end of the rode to the boat in rough weather. Instead, I have red ski line floats knotted on the end and use a single cleat hitch to fasten the rode to the boat. |
| Moe |
posted 03-11-2009 06:41 PM ET (US)
I meant to, but forgot to mention, the difference in shock absorption between 200 feet and 50 feet of road. |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 08:19 PM ET (US)
"Maybe some people don't see any benefit, but I don't see any downside. Is there any downside?" I guess when you fall overboard and are brained by the boat in a good chop you'll figure it out.
Truly: Any sea state that would be bad enough to offer any 'advantage' for anchoring like this is going to be REALLY DAMNED DANGEROUS for anyone trying to hang off of the friggin' bow. You'll be lucky to be able to crawl on your hands and knees to the bow before it would make any difference at all.
If you INSIST on doing it, here's how: Use a 5 foot line with a caribiner on each end. Snap one thru the TRAILERING RING THAT IS NOT DESIGNED TO ANCHOR FROM *before you leave the dock*. Bring the other end aboard and snap it off someplace so it does not drag overboard. When you want to anchor, toss a Prusick Hitch around the anchor rhode and then clip the other end of the line to that. Tie off the rhode on the bow with some slack to the Prusik hitch loop. To retrieve, pull the thing up, unsnap, and then pull the rhode up. If you leave the hitch on the rhode you can re-use it later, otherwise take it off and stow it. See:
Satisfied?
Dave . |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 08:33 PM ET (US)
I should have also added this: There is a way to use the above system to retrieve without needing to go forward of the console at all. If you use the above system with a 15 foot or so line with a snap on each end, you do the following: Basically, you deploy the anchor overboard amidships, and lower all of your scope. Then tie off the prusik loop, then snap the caribiner line to that. You will have pre-rigged the caribiner line from the bow ring and led it aft before you left the dock. After snapping that line to the prusik loop, toss another fifteen feet of the main rhode in and she will lay on the line connecting the bow ring to the prusik loop. You can then retireve it from the stern too: Pull the rhode in, grab the prusik loop, unsnap, and continue to retrieve. Use an orange commercial clamming basket as a rhode storage basket aft and you'll smile. Never allow the rhode to be free on the deck and NEVER EVER EVER take a step ANYPLACE if the line gets out of the basket and the anchor is in the water being dropped. A loop of line around an ankle has dragged more than one trawlerman overboard to his death. Your feet are good where they are, and you are safe: Step anyplace and you will likely have a loop around your ankle. This is why old trawlermen always have a sheath knife on their belts too. (but what do I know, having grown up working on draggers).
. |
| acassidy |
posted 03-11-2009 08:41 PM ET (US)
You could attach the anchor rode to the tow eye, then attach another line to the anchor locker cleat. Attach this line about 15 feet down the anchor rode. Sheeps bend works great. When ready to pull anchor you can pull from the line in the locker until you have the anchor rode in hand then pull the rest of the anchor line up and stow in locker. Pull excess rode up and leave the knot attached to tow eye for the next anchoring. Cheap and easy. |
| hauptjm |
posted 03-11-2009 09:09 PM ET (US)
If you're experiencing wave height, even just occasionally, the height of your T-Top, the last thing you should do is anchor. Unless you're without power and in imminent danger of washing into a structure or landmass, I would almost never advise to set a hook. At anchor, you are at the mercy of the waves with no opportunity to maneuver in a fashion that keeps your boat from broaching. Control of your vessel is the only way to stay safe. As a "ferinstance", when marine emergency personnel come to the aid of a vessel (particularly in rough conditions) they never, ever anchor. Even if they are going to be there for a while. They always maintain mobility to prevent their craft from colliding with the stranded vessel or occurring waves. As far as anchoring, it should be done with the most efficient method to engage and disengage. The bow eye should only be used for mooring buoys and trailers. |
| R T M |
posted 03-11-2009 09:20 PM ET (US)
Here is another idea, you armchair sailors haven`t even considered, If the sea conditions are reported to be over your head, or not safe for the boat you have, Guess what? Just stay home, until another day. Don`t waste taxpayers money searching for you, becuase you underestimeed the scope angle of your anchor line, and your bow stuffed, and rolled your boat. rich(Binkie) |
| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 09:25 PM ET (US)
Mr. Sutton seems a little touchy. Hit a nerve someplace. But, I forget, he only pontificates about the things he actually knows about. He doesn"t interject unnecessary commentary. Geez. What a guy |
| cc13 |
posted 03-11-2009 09:37 PM ET (US)
Dang, Some guys just died. More will die this summer and next, and on and on. Put up a post asking about procedures and potential new procedures (to learn how to do things in a safer manner when it hits the fan) and get castigated. Excuse me for thinking I may not know everything.
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| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-11-2009 09:54 PM ET (US)
"What a guy"
Try the system I describe in the last two posts. If you insist on doing what you seem bent on doing, you'll find that method easy and workable. I really don't think it will offer any advantage, but it'll work.
Dave |
| HAPPYJIM |
posted 03-11-2009 11:10 PM ET (US)
I'm having a hard time understanding the purpose of this thread. If you have a place to tie the anchor off that was provided by the manufacturer of the boat for that purpose, why would you want a point that is not easily accessible under ideal conditions to be used for something that it wasn't intended to be used for. It would be like using the aft cleat to connect the bow trailer strap to, just in case that situation arose. I guess if the cleats fell off and the anchor locker bit broke in half, the bow eye would have to be considered. If things got that bad I would tie it off to the bow railing. If the bow railing pulled loose and went in the drink, you could tie it around the center console. It just looks a lot easier to use what was mounted on the boat for anchoring than to try to make something else work. It would be terrible to read an after the fact article about how you were injured or worse for trying a new method of anchoring. |
| mateobosch |
posted 03-12-2009 01:12 AM ET (US)
Why not just tie a quick release knot and forget the carabiners altogether? Leave a 3 foot tail on the end of the knot that can be pulled and will let the anchor go. I can't think of a quicker or easier way. |
| cc13 |
posted 03-12-2009 08:42 AM ET (US)
Thanks Dave, Good seamanship is what I was looking for. I guess I have been accused of being unprepared, somewhat ignorant, armchair sailor, etc. Maybe. I got caught in a really nasty storm with high confused seas. No way to outrun it. I'm in a quality boat, a 22ft outrage. Plenty of anchor line. A lifeline attached. Jackets on. PLB in my pocket. Epirb in my son's hand. In radio contact with the marina. I came very dangerously close to flipping the boat under power when a very large wave came from a different direction and broadsided us. There was no reliable way to pick through it. So I made the decision to anchor the boat. Seemed the best choice at the time. If it is going over, I would rather have it flip on anchor rather than under power and drifting. We anchored. Then radioed lat/long and rode it out. I don't consider that being unprepared. I did consider that there may be a better way to handle the anchor in these extreme conditions. |
| hauptjm |
posted 03-12-2009 10:38 AM ET (US)
quote: cc13, in no way was I castigating you or anyone. You seemed earnest in your questions and solicited thoughts. If it's seamanship you're looking for then per my reply above, do anything but anchor in those conditions. With regard to your comment about: quote:I think you're mistaken that an anchored capsized boat is better than one adrift. In fact, the drifting boat is much safer relative to bodily harm than the anchored vessel. An anchored boat in a violent sea condition is an absolute weapon. It will be fighting the waves and pounding the surf, making it almost impossible to climb aboard and stay on. The drifting boat will be difficult and dangerous, but not nearly so much as the anchored one. If your concern is to be adrift and more difficult to find, then do what you did in calling in your lat/lon, but do it every few minutes. When you do so, your last known position will be established, and search and rescue knows where to start and proceed based on the weather conditions at hand. Your question is a great one that everyone should pay attention to. At some point, if you spend enough time in open waters, you will be faced with similar circumstances. |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-12-2009 01:24 PM ET (US)
"So I made the decision to anchor the boat. Seemed the best choice at the time. If it is going over, I would rather have it flip on anchor rather than under power and drifting. We anchored"
I don't think that any seaman with experience in that same situation would suggest anchoring. As is said above, an anchored boat is a weapon... to people in the water around it, and to itself. In a current, someone going overboard is lost. Compare that with a drifting boat where a person overboard has a better chance of staying with the boat, and the boat motion itself is going to be the natural motion of the boat in the water, not subject to out of phase 'jerks and starts' as it comes against the rhode. In fact, this is the most likely cause of swamping: An out of phase force *down* as the boat lurches to it's anchor, at the same moment that a large wave passes. One force pulling up, and another down. Not career-enhancing, as we say. The thing to do when confronted with a squall is to maintain headway, and thus vessel control. Work yourself into the wind, and keep it there even as the wind veer, which it will during a squall (which is usually a cold frontal passage). Let it pass... and then go about your business. Maneuverability is life: Don't give it up. A couple of thoughts: First, if conditions are so bad that you are worried about the bow being stuffed at anchor with the rhode tied off to the normal forward cleat, you are unsafe at anchor when the rhode is made off anywhere. Second, the single exception to anchoring in a gale would be when you have lost propulsion, especially if being blown onto a lee shore. In that case... all bets are off. No matter what the wind, toss the anchor, deploy all of your rhode, tie it off the the Norman Pin and get on your life jackets. Forget all that fancy stuff: It'll be down to the raw basics and the faster the better.
. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-12-2009 03:08 PM ET (US)
Well, this question certainly evolved from the original posed. My response above (way at the top) is a suggestion for casual anchoring and boating. It certainly doesn't look salty, but I've seen older boaters using my method above to help make things easier on their backs. Since the question was further clarified to discuss what I now perceive to be "emergency anchoring in an unprotected seaway," my above suggestion is moot and irrelevant. The very first thing you want to do is find shelter. If no sheltered water can be found, as stated above, you want to ensure your crew has PFD's on, you have stowed gear on the deck and secured coolers, etc and keep the bow into the waves. No matter what happens, or what you need to do to accomplish that feat, you need to keep the bow into the waves and the hull under control (no broaching, if you can accomplish that). Sometimes that means actually just holding your position, as moving any "faster" will cause the boat to leap out of the water - but you need to keep the props as firmly planted in the lake/sea as possible to maintain control, power, steerage, etc. This is an excellent rationale for having full canvas for your boat as well. If you see a storm coming, you can usually have enough time to get the forward shelter, flying top and windshield and side curtains up before it hits. This will keep you much drier and help you keep a cool head about how to handle the seas. When I see weather coming, I pull back to idle and instruct my copilot to idle along while I put up the canvas. It takes less than 3 minutes if you are properly motivated. I can get us into a fully enclosed center console Outrage in 5 minutes and the gear stowed in another minute beyond that. Usually, that allows just enough time for a deep breath and perhaps a radio call to check in with a buddy boat before the seas start to build and the rain starts to fall. I'd rather run in 10 miles of rain/weather dry and warm behind the canvas than 7 miles cold and wet with no canvas protection. I figure in 6 minutes, you will only make it about 3 miles or so in normal sea/lake conditions (where 30-35 MPH is pushing it in an 18' Outrage)...so I'd rather take the mileage hit and get the boat and crew adequately prepared for the impending challenge. Call the USCG or other authorities in your area to let them know position before the storm hits and check in with them (if you can) during the storm and immediately afterwards to let them know you are okay. If you lose power, deploy a drift anchor or sea anchor...or even a bucket tied to a line...anything that will slow the drift and make it fast off your bow bit to keep the bow into the seas. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-12-2009 03:13 PM ET (US)
One other thought. If you are boating up the coast or in an area with multiple ports, you should strongly consider finding "any port" in a storm. Meaning, you may end up staying the night in a different town that your destination, but you will be safe. You can always call a cab and bring your rig back to pick up your boat, or get a transient slip for the week and return for your boat the next weekend...or do what I have done many times - get a transient slip for the night and leave whenever the weather breaks - even if it is at 2AM. (My schedule on a Sunday night isn't very flexible on Monday morning -so I'd rather have a very late night of boating to get home than sleeping aboard a missing work on Monday). |
| cc13 |
posted 03-12-2009 05:11 PM ET (US)
I thought initially about adding more backdrop to the question. I decided not to because it would be too long and because folks on this board are usually pretty quick to the point and on topic. In this instance I obviously erred and should have provided more info to start with.
If I find myself in the same predicament again, which I hope I don't, I have gotten some ideas that I think I can put to use. Thanks guys,
|
| cc13 |
posted 03-12-2009 05:38 PM ET (US)
Excuse me. One more. I'm comfortable with the decision to anchor and will do it again. My son almost went over when we were hit. The high rail stopped him. That's when I made the decision to anchor. I don't want a man in the water with me trying to manuever a boat in rough seas to get to him, unable to keep the boat under power (it's either power or drifting; you can't power/steer the boat and retrieve a MOB at the same time). He's tied off. I'm tied off. But if someone goes over, now you've got a real problem in trying to get the MOB back into what is basically an unmanned boat. Unmanned because I can't be at the controls and pulling him in at the same time. To me, it makes sense to anchor and ride it out together. I don't second guess that decision at all.
|
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-12-2009 10:29 PM ET (US)
"To me, it makes sense to anchor and ride it out together"
Hope the next anchored and capsized boat is not yours.
|
| hauptjm |
posted 03-13-2009 08:50 AM ET (US)
"To each his own." Please be careful out there. |
| hauptjm |
posted 03-13-2009 09:02 AM ET (US)
Lastly, cc13 remarked half way down the thread: quote: Very cogent statement and concern. The reason those three men died, was because they were anchored in rough seas. |
| gnr |
posted 03-13-2009 10:04 AM ET (US)
quote: Dave Sutton, Your advice is certainly sound but may I suggest you leave the petty comments out of your posts? I'm sure many would be more receptive to your advice if you didn't come across as suck a dick. p.s. Thank you for sharing your experience here. I appreciate it. |
| Dave Sutton |
posted 03-13-2009 02:02 PM ET (US)
I'm just frustrated, and I'm frustrated because there's someone among us who is going to persist in thinking that a badly flawed decision is still a good one, and who will endanger himself and his passengers if he's in the same situation again. It's just... frustrating. I hate to see people not learn from the lessons learned the hard way over so many years, by so many others. As we say in aviation" "There are no new accidents, just new pilots". All of these lessons have already been learned. We JUST had three guys die... you would think that this guy would *pay friggin attention to why* and quit rationalizing his *badly flawed logic*. <exit frustration-on mode here>
Oh well: This is typical defense mechanism behaviour: (1): When people agree with advice they take it. (2): When people come asking a question with an open mind, they ought to be able to recognize good advice, which is what they came for. (3): When people come with a strongly held opinion that happens to be wrong, they are really only coming for self-validation, and when the advice received is counter to their existing opinion, they do not want to hear it. The third case is true here, and that's what the real pity is.
Dave . |
| cc13 |
posted 03-23-2009 08:49 PM ET (US)
I came seeking advice about technique. You finally got on topic and offered good advice, but only after alot of angst and some thinly veiled desire to argue. Speaking of defensiveness, it really didn't take much of a scratch to bring your desire to argue to the surface. Somehow we went from anchoring technique to the topic of whether one should ever anchor up in a storm. Apparently, your position is that no matter how bad the seas are one should never anchor, even when one has the equipment and ability to do so. Maybe we come from different schools, but that is not what I have been taught, experienced, or read.
|
| cc13 |
posted 03-23-2009 09:00 PM ET (US)
Most things you read will say that anchoring offshore in a storm is way down the list, a last resort move. I agree with that. But when you reach that last resort, it is still preferable to turning a boat over under power. |
| chopbuster |
posted 03-23-2009 09:09 PM ET (US)
It has absolutely nothing to do with different schools of thought. It does, however, have everything do with the occasional |
| hauptjm |
posted 03-23-2009 10:00 PM ET (US)
cc13, I apologize if I came across as a "ball buster" or "thread hi-jacker", that certainly was not my intent. Your questions and concern are a very important topic that should be discussed as often as possible so everyone can learn what the proper course of seamanship is for that circumstance. With that said, you've indicated in the thread that you made the decision based on various factors you "were taught, experienced or read." I'm concerned if someone is teaching or writing this method of safe boat handling for a boat that still has it's power supply intact. Frankly, it it incorrect. With that said, if a boat HAD to anchor offshore because of power loss and not having a drift anchor, then the rode required moves from 5-7 to 1 ratio to 10-12 to 1 (assuming the sea state you described). If said vessel is in just 40ft. deep water, you need 400-480ft. of anchor line to be in a "safe" parameter of scope. And, I use the term "safe" with a grain of salt. Again, as I said, the safer course of action is to be with a drifting capsized boat, than an anchored one. If possible, tether lines should be deployed or ready to be deployed at first power loss along with the drift sock. When or if she goes over, everyone wearing their PFD, stays with the boat via tether lines, and when/if possible utilizes the underside of the hull as a possible "floating island." Frankly, very few people would be able to climb onto the inverted hull in a rough sea state. However, when the weather subsides, it is very possible to climb the hull, assuming it's still floating. Nonetheless, my previous comments may have been taken in a way I did not intend, and for that I apologize. |
| chopbuster |
posted 03-23-2009 11:43 PM ET (US)
...........and just for the record, I wish to clarify that I did not intend to single out any specific member or members as to my post. At least not right now ! |
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