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Author Topic:   VERADO Won't Start 45-Miles Offshore

scfish posted 06-21-2009 03:09 PM ET (US)
went out 45 miles on a 240 outrage with twin 150 verados and the starboard engine stalled and would not restart. the fault code on smartcraft was 220 221 vent sw . had to come back in at 10 mph because the port engine was restricted to 4000rpm and the boat would not plane. current hours on engine starboard 18 port 23. new boat
R T M posted 06-21-2009 03:43 PM ET (US)
To much technology. Why bring a tool kit, you can`t fix anything. Lucky you had twins.
rich/Binkie
glen e posted 06-21-2009 04:13 PM ET (US)
And "Binkie" once again proves why verado owners go elsewhere for help on their motors.....
SJUAE posted 06-21-2009 04:19 PM ET (US)
scfish
I hate this when it happens, it just knocks you confidence
Hope the fault is minor
Regards
Steve
R T M posted 06-21-2009 04:26 PM ET (US)
Not trying to be a smart a$$, but whats the point of twins if you can`t run more that 10 mph on the single. I Think he would be better off with a single and a 25hp FI 4 stroke Merc/Tohatsu on a kicker bracket. they are very reliable motors, and well, it even says Mercury on the cowl, and only cost 3k.
rich/Binkie
jimh posted 06-21-2009 06:13 PM ET (US)
Glen--I don't see any request for help. This is just a narrative of a Verado motor failing to start. It is unlikely that 45-miles offshore this fellow could have reached VERADOCLUB and gotten advice, nor if he got advice, there is much he could have done with it.
Glen should tell us what advice he would give in this situation so we can see what we're missing. However, other than something very simple, such as a loose connection in the primary battery distribution, I don't think most boaters are going to yank the cowling off a Verado motor while 45-miles offshore and start doing any effective trouble shooting. Particularly when the other motor is running.
Now that the boat is back to shore, there is not much need for advice--the motor is under warranty and Mercury will provide the remedy. We've been hearing about the ultra-sophistication of the Verado "propulsion system," and it hardly seems reasonable to suddenly abandon that paradigm and turn the Verado into a motor that every boater can work on while hanging over the transom and 45-miles offshore.
Steve makes a good point: once a mechanical device has let you down, you tend to have ongoing worry about it. It may be irrational, but that is human nature.
As for the boat failing to reach plane on one engine, that appears to be associated with the failure, as the author notes "the port engine was restricted to 4,000-RPM." I read that as some feature in the engine coming into play to protect it. If he meant to say that his boat can not reach plane on a single engine that runs normally, that is a different situation. However, a 150-HP Verado that runs appears to have made a perfectly good get-home motor.
glen e posted 06-21-2009 06:39 PM ET (US)
Actually we found the answer about 8 months ago....it works and is approved by Mercury in emergency, get home situations:

http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=1044.0
It also works on e-tecs when E-10 ravages their fuel pump.
newt posted 06-21-2009 06:44 PM ET (US)
My 1986 Revenge is equipped with twin 150 horsepower engines. Without changing the propeller, maximum engine speed when running on a single is 4000 RPM - like the original poster. The important difference is that boat speed is just over 30 mph.
Chock it up as another point in favor of a classic Whaler.
jimh posted 06-21-2009 07:48 PM ET (US)
If the fuel lift pump has failed, why doesn't the Verado instrumentation present this message to the owner:
"Fuel pump failed; operate primer bulb as emergency pump."
glen e posted 06-21-2009 08:02 PM ET (US)
It probably did. It is showing the latest fault "sw vent hi" which is flooding fro over starting. One alarm back on the sartcraft history on the gauge is "Lift pump failure".(221)
TransAm posted 06-21-2009 08:25 PM ET (US)
The title of this thread seems a bit inaccurate. The author was not stranded at all; just had a slow ride home. I would agree with Newt that a single 150 HP motor prop'd for dual motors would likely not produce an engine speed greater than 4,000 RPM on a 6,000+ lb set-up.
jimh posted 06-21-2009 09:26 PM ET (US)
Changed TOPIC. The only reason the Verado didn't strand the guy is he had another motor. But in any case, the topic is now completely accurate.
Just out of curiosity, does the Verado owner's manual contain a listing of the error code numbers, their meaning, and possible remedies for each one?
scfish posted 06-21-2009 09:36 PM ET (US)
Hey thanks guys for all the comments about my misadventure. This happened friday and the weather was great and flat seas and we had fish in the box and glen is right about the codes but there was no suggestion to manually prime anything. The codes are not any help in that situation and I also had all of the manuels in the boat. The verado manuel states that power to the engine still running will be reduced to prevent damage so I was'nt surprised about the speed. Im taking the boat back to Sea Ray of Charleston and let them check Both engines and will post what happens.
glen e posted 06-21-2009 09:46 PM ET (US)
If anyone read my link, the primer bulb is our fix, not Merc's. Verados do not come with a primer bulb. Inserting one to get home due to a float sticking is an emergency solution avail. Call Merc and ask if you want.
All smartcraft units have descriptive fault display outlined in the Smartcraft manual avail online.
jimh posted 06-21-2009 10:34 PM ET (US)
These days memory is not expensive. Put more information into the SmartCraft system and it could live up to its name.
I found the following information related to the error codes from SmartCraft as might be seen on a Vessel View display.
Source: http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/precisionrigging/ smartcraft_manuals/Vesselview_Manual.pdf
--
[Oops--grabbed wrong error code!]
220 Critical Sensor--Fuel have overflowed into the vent system. Check for fuel leakage. May have been caused by multiple restart attempts. Return to port Immediately ‑ Service engine before next use.
(At least this one gave the operate some advice on an action to take--"check for fuel leakage.").
221 Critical Sensor--Lift pump float switch is not working properly. Return to port Immediately ‑ Service engine before next use.

--
If you happened to have that 118 page printed manual on board, it would have told you the meaning of the error codes. It does not offer much in the way of a remedy or workaround.
I guess you did follow the recommended action: "Return to port immediately."
Is this going to turn out to be another case of a fuel service module failure? And will the cause be poor fuel quality, probably too much ethanol?
R T M posted 06-21-2009 11:45 PM ET (US)
"Return to port immediately." I like that comment. Are Verados only sold in pairs or triples? Back in the day when I ran twin Merc 115 Towers, I never needed or felt the need for Sea Tow, and I never limped home on a single motor either in the ten years I owned them from new. And they were never soiled by the hand of a professional mechanic or ever saw a repair shop, and always ran with the original parts with the exception of gear case oil. They never came with a gauge that said "return to port immediately, if your lucky to have a pair, or else your SOOL, sucker."
Of course the inline six was Carl`s baby, Lucky for him he`s gone to a better place, where Mercurys all have red or blue stripes.
rich/Binkie
SJUAE posted 06-22-2009 06:52 AM ET (US)
The thought had not crossed my mind, but is that true of all twin engine post clasics (excluding 345/370 with triples) that they can only limp home on one engine ?
Regards
Steve
Peter posted 06-22-2009 07:43 AM ET (US)
I too found the fact that the other engine's running parameters were modified based on what had happened to its sibling. Was it because of the particular codes being set or is it just a general rule that if one motor isn't running the other is dialed back to prevent it from being overloaded?
Is there an override which could be useful if one swapped propellers to lower propeller pitch on the working motor so as not to overload the motor?
glen e posted 06-22-2009 08:24 AM ET (US)
The only way the "good" engine would be limited is if it was registering some fault due to the condition it was put in. My guess is that due to propping it registered too many overspeed alarms (hitting the limiter due to slippage) and kicked in the guardian. I can run either of my engines to red line on one without any guardian mode and have done so.
Peter posted 06-22-2009 08:53 AM ET (US)
Why would overspeed caused by slippage limit engine speed to 4000 RPM?
Per the Vessel View error code list, the "Engine Power Limited" result can be caused by supercharger overtemp or knocking. Seems to me that either of those could be happening if trying to run on one engine with a propeller pitch set up for twins.
jimh posted 06-22-2009 09:17 AM ET (US)
To check if a Boston Whaler can plane on only one engine, compare the engine horsepower to the minimum horsepower rating for the hull. For example, an OUTRAGE 22 has a minimum of 90-HP and a maximum of 240-HP. It should be possible to reach plane with a single 90-HP motor. That may require the motor to have the proper propeller pitch. The ratio of max/min is quite large, 240/90 = 2.66:1. On some of the newer models the ratio is much smaller.
Peter posted 06-22-2009 09:23 AM ET (US)
The 240 Outrage runs on a much deeper V so its power requirements to maintain plane are greater. It's is also much heavier than a classic 22 Outrage. So its minimum HP to plane requirements will be substantially higher.
I've seen a 240 Outrage equipped with a single 225 Mercury Optimax getting on plane and it appears to struggle with the task. I can't see how a 150 HP motor of any kind, except perhaps for a diesel, would be able to accomplish that task.
Tohsgib posted 06-22-2009 11:35 AM ET (US)
If that is true then twins are a waste of money and get a kicker like Binks suggested.
My take is the supercharger was getting abused and limited engine speed to keep it cool.
Lastly why don't they have primer bulbs? What if you run out of gas, how will it prime? My EFI Suzukis all have them from factory.
Scott Grey posted 06-23-2009 01:20 PM ET (US)
It sounds like the float switch on the fuel pump. I just had mine replaced on 150 Verado due to ethanol fuel. Dealer said they are finding this on several motors and is covered by the warranty. It took them a few days and I had it back. I have put about 40 hours on it since without a problem.
johnhenry posted 06-23-2009 01:51 PM ET (US)
My 08 90 veradito has no primer bulb either. I always wondered why? The electric fuel pump must draw it up. Always starts immediately but I have never run out of gas.
Jeff posted 06-23-2009 03:49 PM ET (US)
With most cars today you are able to reset the ECU and clear fault / CEL codes by disconnecting the battery from the system. Give it 30 seconds to clear out any static charges and reconnect the battery. This will reset the ECU and you can try it again. If the system has not encountered a hard fault / major failure the engine should start and run normal again. Are you able to to this on Verado's?
Then again I suppose if you shut the battery switches to off that should be the same thing though, the wires at still connected so it may still maintain a static charge. How does the Verado's ECU store codes if the batteries are off?
Peter posted 06-23-2009 03:54 PM ET (US)
With respect to serious fault codes involving the fuel system, I know that my Ficht 225s are disabled and can't be enabled except by the dealer. I would expect the Verado to be setup the same way.
Plotman posted 06-23-2009 05:51 PM ET (US)
Why was the "good engine restricted to 400 rpm?
Is the max it would spin up because of the load on a single engine, or was there some kind of crossover issue with it too.
I am very happy that I can plane and run at 35+ mph with 5 adults on board on just one of my two engines.
Plotman posted 06-23-2009 05:52 PM ET (US)
Why was the "good engine restricted to 400 rpm?
Is the max it would spin up because of the load on a single engine, or was there some kind of crossover issue with it too.
I am very happy that I can plane and run at 35+ mph with 5 adults on board on just one of my two engines.
lizard posted 06-23-2009 11:01 PM ET (US)
Maybe American cars' ECUs clear with a disconnect to the battery. I can tell you my Saab does not. It has to be re-set by the dealer.
SC Joe posted 06-24-2009 09:40 AM ET (US)

quote:
Maybe American cars' ECUs clear with a disconnect to the battery. I can tell you my Saab does not. It has to be re-set by the dealer.
Or anyone with an OBD II scanner.
Jeff posted 06-24-2009 09:55 AM ET (US)
Not just American cars. Most Japanese do this as well. Some European cars and be cleared by this method while others do require an OBDII resent. Some know ways around that as well but, I do not.
The disconnection of a battery to reset an ECU on a vehicle is a common way to find out if your problem is from a failure or just a system hickup. If it was just a hickup the engine should restart and show no CEL or fault codes. If it was a hard fault / failure the CEL will return upon start up if the engine will restart at all.
Scott Grey posted 06-24-2009 12:06 PM ET (US)
I would think the boat is too heavy to plane with just one 150 on the back, at least without changing the pitch or number of blades on the prop. 4000 rpm sounds like too much pitch on the prop to run just one motor?

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Author	Topic: VERADO Won't Start 45-Miles Offshore
scfish	posted 06-21-2009 03:09 PM ET (US) went out 45 miles on a 240 outrage with twin 150 verados and the starboard engine stalled and would not restart. the fault code on smartcraft was 220 221 vent sw . had to come back in at 10 mph because the port engine was restricted to 4000rpm and the boat would not plane. current hours on engine starboard 18 port 23. new boat
R T M	posted 06-21-2009 03:43 PM ET (US) To much technology. Why bring a tool kit, you can`t fix anything. Lucky you had twins. rich/Binkie
glen e	posted 06-21-2009 04:13 PM ET (US) And "Binkie" once again proves why verado owners go elsewhere for help on their motors.....
SJUAE	posted 06-21-2009 04:19 PM ET (US) scfish I hate this when it happens, it just knocks you confidence Hope the fault is minor Regards Steve
R T M	posted 06-21-2009 04:26 PM ET (US) Not trying to be a smart a$$, but whats the point of twins if you can`t run more that 10 mph on the single. I Think he would be better off with a single and a 25hp FI 4 stroke Merc/Tohatsu on a kicker bracket. they are very reliable motors, and well, it even says Mercury on the cowl, and only cost 3k. rich/Binkie
jimh	posted 06-21-2009 06:13 PM ET (US) Glen--I don't see any request for help. This is just a narrative of a Verado motor failing to start. It is unlikely that 45-miles offshore this fellow could have reached VERADOCLUB and gotten advice, nor if he got advice, there is much he could have done with it. Glen should tell us what advice he would give in this situation so we can see what we're missing. However, other than something very simple, such as a loose connection in the primary battery distribution, I don't think most boaters are going to yank the cowling off a Verado motor while 45-miles offshore and start doing any effective trouble shooting. Particularly when the other motor is running. Now that the boat is back to shore, there is not much need for advice--the motor is under warranty and Mercury will provide the remedy. We've been hearing about the ultra-sophistication of the Verado "propulsion system," and it hardly seems reasonable to suddenly abandon that paradigm and turn the Verado into a motor that every boater can work on while hanging over the transom and 45-miles offshore. Steve makes a good point: once a mechanical device has let you down, you tend to have ongoing worry about it. It may be irrational, but that is human nature. As for the boat failing to reach plane on one engine, that appears to be associated with the failure, as the author notes "the port engine was restricted to 4,000-RPM." I read that as some feature in the engine coming into play to protect it. If he meant to say that his boat can not reach plane on a single engine that runs normally, that is a different situation. However, a 150-HP Verado that runs appears to have made a perfectly good get-home motor.
glen e	posted 06-21-2009 06:39 PM ET (US) Actually we found the answer about 8 months ago....it works and is approved by Mercury in emergency, get home situations: http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=1044.0 It also works on e-tecs when E-10 ravages their fuel pump.
newt	posted 06-21-2009 06:44 PM ET (US) My 1986 Revenge is equipped with twin 150 horsepower engines. Without changing the propeller, maximum engine speed when running on a single is 4000 RPM - like the original poster. The important difference is that boat speed is just over 30 mph. Chock it up as another point in favor of a classic Whaler.
jimh	posted 06-21-2009 07:48 PM ET (US) If the fuel lift pump has failed, why doesn't the Verado instrumentation present this message to the owner: "Fuel pump failed; operate primer bulb as emergency pump."
glen e	posted 06-21-2009 08:02 PM ET (US) It probably did. It is showing the latest fault "sw vent hi" which is flooding fro over starting. One alarm back on the sartcraft history on the gauge is "Lift pump failure".(221)
TransAm	posted 06-21-2009 08:25 PM ET (US) The title of this thread seems a bit inaccurate. The author was not stranded at all; just had a slow ride home. I would agree with Newt that a single 150 HP motor prop'd for dual motors would likely not produce an engine speed greater than 4,000 RPM on a 6,000+ lb set-up.
jimh	posted 06-21-2009 09:26 PM ET (US) Changed TOPIC. The only reason the Verado didn't strand the guy is he had another motor. But in any case, the topic is now completely accurate. Just out of curiosity, does the Verado owner's manual contain a listing of the error code numbers, their meaning, and possible remedies for each one?
scfish	posted 06-21-2009 09:36 PM ET (US) Hey thanks guys for all the comments about my misadventure. This happened friday and the weather was great and flat seas and we had fish in the box and glen is right about the codes but there was no suggestion to manually prime anything. The codes are not any help in that situation and I also had all of the manuels in the boat. The verado manuel states that power to the engine still running will be reduced to prevent damage so I was'nt surprised about the speed. Im taking the boat back to Sea Ray of Charleston and let them check Both engines and will post what happens.
glen e	posted 06-21-2009 09:46 PM ET (US) If anyone read my link, the primer bulb is our fix, not Merc's. Verados do not come with a primer bulb. Inserting one to get home due to a float sticking is an emergency solution avail. Call Merc and ask if you want. All smartcraft units have descriptive fault display outlined in the Smartcraft manual avail online.
jimh	posted 06-21-2009 10:34 PM ET (US) These days memory is not expensive. Put more information into the SmartCraft system and it could live up to its name. I found the following information related to the error codes from SmartCraft as might be seen on a Vessel View display. Source: http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/precisionrigging/ smartcraft_manuals/Vesselview_Manual.pdf -- [Oops--grabbed wrong error code!] 220 Critical Sensor--Fuel have overflowed into the vent system. Check for fuel leakage. May have been caused by multiple restart attempts. Return to port Immediately ‑ Service engine before next use. (At least this one gave the operate some advice on an action to take--"check for fuel leakage."). 221 Critical Sensor--Lift pump float switch is not working properly. Return to port Immediately ‑ Service engine before next use. -- If you happened to have that 118 page printed manual on board, it would have told you the meaning of the error codes. It does not offer much in the way of a remedy or workaround. I guess you did follow the recommended action: "Return to port immediately." Is this going to turn out to be another case of a fuel service module failure? And will the cause be poor fuel quality, probably too much ethanol?
R T M	posted 06-21-2009 11:45 PM ET (US) "Return to port immediately." I like that comment. Are Verados only sold in pairs or triples? Back in the day when I ran twin Merc 115 Towers, I never needed or felt the need for Sea Tow, and I never limped home on a single motor either in the ten years I owned them from new. And they were never soiled by the hand of a professional mechanic or ever saw a repair shop, and always ran with the original parts with the exception of gear case oil. They never came with a gauge that said "return to port immediately, if your lucky to have a pair, or else your SOOL, sucker." Of course the inline six was Carl`s baby, Lucky for him he`s gone to a better place, where Mercurys all have red or blue stripes. rich/Binkie
SJUAE	posted 06-22-2009 06:52 AM ET (US) The thought had not crossed my mind, but is that true of all twin engine post clasics (excluding 345/370 with triples) that they can only limp home on one engine ? Regards Steve
Peter	posted 06-22-2009 07:43 AM ET (US) I too found the fact that the other engine's running parameters were modified based on what had happened to its sibling. Was it because of the particular codes being set or is it just a general rule that if one motor isn't running the other is dialed back to prevent it from being overloaded? Is there an override which could be useful if one swapped propellers to lower propeller pitch on the working motor so as not to overload the motor?
glen e	posted 06-22-2009 08:24 AM ET (US) The only way the "good" engine would be limited is if it was registering some fault due to the condition it was put in. My guess is that due to propping it registered too many overspeed alarms (hitting the limiter due to slippage) and kicked in the guardian. I can run either of my engines to red line on one without any guardian mode and have done so.
Peter	posted 06-22-2009 08:53 AM ET (US) Why would overspeed caused by slippage limit engine speed to 4000 RPM? Per the Vessel View error code list, the "Engine Power Limited" result can be caused by supercharger overtemp or knocking. Seems to me that either of those could be happening if trying to run on one engine with a propeller pitch set up for twins.
jimh	posted 06-22-2009 09:17 AM ET (US) To check if a Boston Whaler can plane on only one engine, compare the engine horsepower to the minimum horsepower rating for the hull. For example, an OUTRAGE 22 has a minimum of 90-HP and a maximum of 240-HP. It should be possible to reach plane with a single 90-HP motor. That may require the motor to have the proper propeller pitch. The ratio of max/min is quite large, 240/90 = 2.66:1. On some of the newer models the ratio is much smaller.
Peter	posted 06-22-2009 09:23 AM ET (US) The 240 Outrage runs on a much deeper V so its power requirements to maintain plane are greater. It's is also much heavier than a classic 22 Outrage. So its minimum HP to plane requirements will be substantially higher. I've seen a 240 Outrage equipped with a single 225 Mercury Optimax getting on plane and it appears to struggle with the task. I can't see how a 150 HP motor of any kind, except perhaps for a diesel, would be able to accomplish that task.
Tohsgib	posted 06-22-2009 11:35 AM ET (US) If that is true then twins are a waste of money and get a kicker like Binks suggested. My take is the supercharger was getting abused and limited engine speed to keep it cool. Lastly why don't they have primer bulbs? What if you run out of gas, how will it prime? My EFI Suzukis all have them from factory.
Scott Grey	posted 06-23-2009 01:20 PM ET (US) It sounds like the float switch on the fuel pump. I just had mine replaced on 150 Verado due to ethanol fuel. Dealer said they are finding this on several motors and is covered by the warranty. It took them a few days and I had it back. I have put about 40 hours on it since without a problem.
johnhenry	posted 06-23-2009 01:51 PM ET (US) My 08 90 veradito has no primer bulb either. I always wondered why? The electric fuel pump must draw it up. Always starts immediately but I have never run out of gas.
Jeff	posted 06-23-2009 03:49 PM ET (US) With most cars today you are able to reset the ECU and clear fault / CEL codes by disconnecting the battery from the system. Give it 30 seconds to clear out any static charges and reconnect the battery. This will reset the ECU and you can try it again. If the system has not encountered a hard fault / major failure the engine should start and run normal again. Are you able to to this on Verado's? Then again I suppose if you shut the battery switches to off that should be the same thing though, the wires at still connected so it may still maintain a static charge. How does the Verado's ECU store codes if the batteries are off?
Peter	posted 06-23-2009 03:54 PM ET (US) With respect to serious fault codes involving the fuel system, I know that my Ficht 225s are disabled and can't be enabled except by the dealer. I would expect the Verado to be setup the same way.
Plotman	posted 06-23-2009 05:51 PM ET (US) Why was the "good engine restricted to 400 rpm? Is the max it would spin up because of the load on a single engine, or was there some kind of crossover issue with it too. I am very happy that I can plane and run at 35+ mph with 5 adults on board on just one of my two engines.
Plotman	posted 06-23-2009 05:52 PM ET (US) Why was the "good engine restricted to 400 rpm? Is the max it would spin up because of the load on a single engine, or was there some kind of crossover issue with it too. I am very happy that I can plane and run at 35+ mph with 5 adults on board on just one of my two engines.
lizard	posted 06-23-2009 11:01 PM ET (US) Maybe American cars' ECUs clear with a disconnect to the battery. I can tell you my Saab does not. It has to be re-set by the dealer.
SC Joe	posted 06-24-2009 09:40 AM ET (US) quote: Maybe American cars' ECUs clear with a disconnect to the battery. I can tell you my Saab does not. It has to be re-set by the dealer. Or anyone with an OBD II scanner.
Jeff	posted 06-24-2009 09:55 AM ET (US) Not just American cars. Most Japanese do this as well. Some European cars and be cleared by this method while others do require an OBDII resent. Some know ways around that as well but, I do not. The disconnection of a battery to reset an ECU on a vehicle is a common way to find out if your problem is from a failure or just a system hickup. If it was just a hickup the engine should restart and show no CEL or fault codes. If it was a hard fault / failure the CEL will return upon start up if the engine will restart at all.
Scott Grey	posted 06-24-2009 12:06 PM ET (US) I would think the boat is too heavy to plane with just one 150 on the back, at least without changing the pitch or number of blades on the prop. 4000 rpm sounds like too much pitch on the prop to run just one motor?