posted 09-06-2009 09:27 PM ET (US)        

I fueled up the boat the Friday before so I had plenty of fuel for the ocean salmon fishing trip we took last Saturday. No E10 label was noticed on the pumps. The next day, both my outboards purred all day long, not missing a beat (OK, the kicker needs the plugs changed, but it never died once, for 6 hours straight).

Yesterday, I added 10 gallons of gas to my wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee at the same location that I filled the boat. For the first time, I noticed the E10 label on the pump. This morning, my brother in law called me to report that a friend of ours that works for a large local logging company told him to NOT buy gas at that location.

Most of the logging company work trucks are diesel powered, but some of the company office vehicles are gasoline powered. Some time, early in the past week, five of their gas fueled vehicles filled up, all on the same day. ALL five of the vehicles were disabled after the fill up. The fuel tanks had to be removed, drained and cleaned, as well as the fuel pumps replaced.

My wife's Jeep does not seem to have been affected. We only added 10 gallons, into about 10 gallons that were in the tank prior.

So, my quandary is, what to do about my nearly antique outboards, a 1992 Suzuki carbed 200 and a 1988 Suzuki 15. In addition, what about my lawn mower, chainsaw, weedeater, shrimp pot puller, rototiller and generator? The shop manual for the 200 Suzuki explicitly states to use unleaded gasoline containing NO (my emphasis) alcohol.

I wonder how many people are in the same predicament as myself? It has to be millions of people. Has anyone experienced ill affects from the change over in their old equipment and, if so, how did you deal with the problem?

I am over 50 years old and all my life, I have tried to maintain my equipment in a responsible manner. In doing so, I hoped that the equipment that I have bought over the years (with my sweat, literally) would last at least as long as the design parameters would allow them. It seems to me a rather "Green" approach to me. Instead of throwing away a used up, uncared for piece of equipment, thereby having to use more raw materials to manufacture replacement equipment, make the investment in raw materials last as long as possible.

As an aside, please allow me to step on my soapbox (I usually try to stay off of it in public). It seems to me our government has done this country a great disservice. On the other hand, I guess we elect the government, so "we" are responsible for allowing this E10 debacle to happen.

Unfortunately, a large population can probably be likened to a large flock of sheep. As some people may know when one sheep runs headlong down a certain path, the entire flock follows, no matter how ill conceived the path may be. The use of alchohol as fuel, touted as saving us from the domination of foreign oil powers, and some how also being associated with "Green" technology, I believe is an ill conceived policy.

To grow the organic matter as quickly and reliably as possible to use as a fuel supply is a decidedly "UN-green" operation. Agribusiness can be shown that it does not shy away from using as many chemicals as it takes to get maximum yield from a given hectare of production land. No "Green-ness" there, "Brown-ness" at best.

The above mentioned statement, coupled with the fact that alcohol contains less energy per unit than gasoline, thus requiring that more fuel be burned to yield the same amount of work, makes it even less green. It seems to me that burning more fuel to go the same distance results in more emissions being produced for said distance. No "Green" here either. Not to mention burning more fuel to go the same distance makes us more dependent on foreign oil.

Now lets add the amount of raw materials and energy it takes to replace all the machines of everybody on earth to run on the new "Green" biomass dependent alcohol technology. Hmmm, again, more "Brown" than green.

Now lets also add that the amount of land that is removed from food production and transferred to fuel production, will have an impact on the cost of food. Less land to produce food, means less food produced, which means higher food cost. Food is the most basic commodity of human life. Now you are placing a surcharge, in effect a tax, on food. A tax on food affects everyone, but affects the poorest people the most.

I have not done in depth reading on this subject, and anyone can and will dispute my statements. I would be unable to quote sources, so please set me straight if my statements are inaccurate. I just have this naggiing feeling we are being railroaded by interests that do not have the best interest of the people of this country at heart.

That all being said, I am now off my soapbox. Your personal experience of dealing with the E10 debacle, successfully or not, and how I may adapt/protect my old equipment would be most appreciated.

posted 09-07-2009 08:00 AM ET (US)            

My concern would be the other parts of your system - chiefly the fuel hoses (vent and delivery, etc) - if they are as old as your motors, you should replace them asap because they certainly won't hold up to the E10. And your tank - if it's an inboard tank, is it fiberglass or metal? If fiberglass, it'll probably start degrading rapidly; the result being deposits in your motors and a hole in your tank, leaking into the fuel cavity. If it's metal, any deposits that have settled in the tank will come loose and foul your filter, etc.

posted 09-07-2009 11:28 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for the reply.

The boat is a 1989 Outrage with the aluminum below deck fuel tank. When I bought the boat around 4 years ago, the fuel fill and vent hoses were replaced. The tank outlet hoses still looked serviceable, so I did not replace those.

When I replaced the fill and vent hoses, I planned to replace the outlet hoses in the near future, which I guess is now.

Since I have owned the boat, I have always used fuel stabilizer when adding gas. And I do mean always.

My concern about the motors is all the rubber under the cowling. It seems that engine fuel supply hoses would be next in line to fail.

Hoses I suppose are easy enough to replace, but what about rubber carburetor parts like gaskets? Should the carburetors be rebuilt with alcohol resistant parts? Is there such a thing as alcohol resistant carburetor rebuild kits? (I guess I would have the extreme joy of having the privilege of paying for carburetor rebuilds on perfectly good carburetors, because I am pretty sure the government that mandated the E10 will not see fit to cover this.)

I would be very interested in hearing from people who have actually taken an old motor and have adapted it to run reliably on E10. Also, I would like to hear from people who have tried and not been successful.

Also, I would like to hear from people that have repowered with modern outboards and are running E10. Are they experiencing good reliability or are there still problems associated with the E10?

Jim, I am sure many elected officials are anxious to retain the high paying government job they have and will take money from anyone that will help them stay in power, especially lobbyists for large companys that have huge interests at stake, such as the continued proliferation of ethanol production.

My wife tells me I should channel the energy I am using to write these diatribes into letters to our Washington state elected officials. She is right, as usual.

Once again, thank you for the replies. Keep them coming, especially the ones that can help me keep the old motors running, at least long enough for me to save enough to repower.

posted 09-07-2009 11:56 AM ET (US)            

The ethanol industry stuggles with profitability. It would likely fade without government subsidies. No doubt, farmers have been the primary beneficiary.

posted 09-07-2009 12:30 PM ET (US)            

Before this thread descends into a near endless steam of political diatribe we have all seen here before, let's get back to what is going on with the motor on your Boston Whaler.

I am surprised to hear your gasoline only now has E10 in it. I thought all Washington State highway gasoline was mandated to be E10 last fall. I think October 1, 2008 was the date. How did you avoid it until now?

Let me assure you that your boat is probably not in as great a danger as you imagine. I have been using E10 in my 1988 Revenge's fuels system since last winter. The pair of 1989 Mercury outboards have not minded one bit...and I have been waiting for something bad to happen with my spare fuel filters onboard. All fuel hoses are original. Not one problem.

When the motors were tuned this spring, I dissected the old fuel filters to look for contamination. They were clean as a whistle.

When I put E10 in my boat for the first time last winter, I made sure the tank was as empty as possible. It was down to less than 10 gallons and I filled the tank, 140 gallon capacity.

I also buy my gas form a very high volume station where the in-ground tanks were new three years ago so I feel confident there was less of a chance of there being water contamination in those tanks.

What I suspect happened with the company vehicles that all choked on their first fill up of E10 was that batch of E10 was the very first to be put in the storage tanks, and there was water in those tanks. The Ethanol grabbed the water and contaminated the vehicles.

posted 09-07-2009 03:09 PM ET (US)            

Several of the gas stations around Shelton have had E10 for at least a year. I don't know why the local card lock that I have been using for the last 15 to 20 years just started selling it. It is a Pacific Pride dealership (I think Masco Petroleum).

I filled the boat on Friday, 8/28, adding 30 gallons. I added 10 gallons to my wifes Jeep on Saturday, 9/5. Sometime between the additions, the Manke company vehicles filled up.

Jim, I am happy to hear that my boat's fuel system should be up to handling the E10. I wonder what is up with the Suzuki shop manual and the "alcohol free fuel" fuel requirement.

One thing that I just thought of, the manual, although a Suzuki factory shop manual, covers several model years of the 2.7 liter V-6 engines. It may be possible that the section containing information that applies typically to all the model years was written early, before the addition of alcohol to fuel was considered imminent and was never edited to reflect the new fuel specification requirement.

Any old Suzuki people around that have first hand E10 experience?

posted 09-07-2009 03:16 PM ET (US)            

Given that information, if I were in your shoes, I would sample the fuel in the tank by disconnecting the fuel hose from the motor and us the primer bulb to pump out a good sample, enough to clear the fuel lines and draw from the fuel tank itself several quarts perhaps.

If it's clean, pour the bucket of gas back in the tank and then I would use the boat, but maybe carry spare filters or a portable tank of gas to get home on if need be.

posted 09-07-2009 03:59 PM ET (US)            

Spare filters sounds like great advice. I can also handle having a tank of spare fuel handy too- wait a second, are my plastic 6 gallon tanks OK for E10?

I suppose my steel tanks are OK, but who knows, maybe there is some stuff stuck to the inside of those tanks that the E10 would emulsify and suspend.

I will just try and be careful and see what happens.

posted 09-07-2009 09:41 PM ET (US)            

Double Correction:

Not all the gasoline sold state wide has ethanol in it. 2% of the gasoline sold in the State has to have ethanol in it.

It is required by law to post the content of ethanol, if any, on the pump. Certain counties are mandated at certain times of the year to have ethanol. If you are confused, ask the station operator. The ethanol mandate is based on air quality.

Doug, do you really think that a cardlock operator would intentionally "poison" his membership by "scrubbing" his fuel tanks into his own customers tanks? Don't ya think he would want to keep his commercial customer's vehicles out of the repair shop so the customer can afford to pay his fuel bill?

If or when I am forced, either by cost or mandate, to sell gasoline with ethanol in it, I will scrub and filter before nozzle to my customer. Now the fuel hits hits the customers 10 year fuel system, well there can be problems.

By the way, I am a Pacific Pride franchise.

posted 09-07-2009 10:40 PM ET (US)            

For those of us who have been using E-10 fuel for upwards of a decade, all these stories of "my brother-in-law has a friend who knows someone" who had a problem are kind of amusing.

In fact today I started a pump I inherited for the first time in three years. It was never winterized, the fuel in the tank is 3+ years old and it was simply shoved in the back corner of a shed the last time it was used.

If all of these stories about E-10 gas going bad after a month are true, the little 4.5 horse on that pump must have missed them. I had to unstick the recoil starter, but once I did that, that little engine started on the third pull and ran for a half hour on 3 year old fuel just fine.

There is almost as much hype about the evils of ethanol blended fuel out there as there is about the healthcare debate.

posted 09-07-2009 11:35 PM ET (US)            

I have never had any problems with the Pacific Pride dealership here in Shelton or anywhere else for that matter. I certainly don't think the cardlock operator intentionally did anything that would hurt a large clients equipment. I was only stating what happened to their vehicles.

I also stated that we added 10 gallons to my wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee within a couple of days of the incident and it remains unaffected.

Plotman,

I admit, I did not get the report first hand, however, the person where the report originated is a personal friend of mine, as well as my brother in law. He happens to be a long time employee of the company that owns the vehicles affected and holds a position of some responsibility within that company.

I know his position and am at least fairly certain he had to deal with the problem himself. I apologize, but I don't find this report at all amusing to me. I understand that the internet can spread false information just as fast as it can spread accurate information and how some people may find it amusing, but, I am not smiling.

I certainly hope that the problems that some people are having are not the norm and that the use of E10 does not affect properly maintained equipment, and yes I admit, especially my gasoline powered equipment.

Once again, thanks for the replies,

posted 09-08-2009 09:53 AM ET (US)            

Because you are fastidious in maintaining your equipment, I don't think you will have any problems provided that you take a few added precautions, as stated before.

Filters, etc are fine - the Ethanol blended fuel WILL scrub your tank - but most sediment will remain sediment - at the bottom of your tank. Check your filters a couple of times a season - not for water - but for rust/sediment.

Regarding your older motors and boat - the biggest problem will be with rubber hoses. Inspect these annually for cracking, etc. I like to spray mine every winter with silicone spray anyway when I'm wiping down the powerhead during winter lay-up prep. I'd change out all pre-1995 or so rubber hoses on the boat, just as a preventive maintenance item.

As for the rubber in the fuel pumps, etc. Well - when these fail, they fail. If you want to be proactive, you can buy a rebuild kit - most are fairly simple - you could do so, but I'd wait until it failed.

Regarding your wife's car - if your car is running fine, then don't worry about it.

I'm not a customer of a card lock station, so I don't fully understand the volume/turnover rate at those stations, but my recommendation is to identify a high-volume station with fairly new tanks (i.e. a new station near the highway at a major exit) and use them for a few months while all the other tanks are being scrubbed by the ethanol blended fuel.

In a nod to Plotman's point - I've never experienced fuel-related failure in any automobile. I did have a hose on my 1974 Johnson/Seahorse outboard fail this summer, after being run 3 years ago on an Ethanol blended fuel, winterized and run again this year. Prior to that, it last ran in the 1990's and likely on non-ethanol blended fuel. I'm guessing that I'll have to rebuild the fuel pump on that motor this winter as a precaution...the little bit of hose had dried out and split under the pressure of squeezing the fuel bulb.

That's it - everything else runs fine on the stuff.

I do agree with your points about less energy per pound of fuel, added net energy and resource expenditure to produce the stuff and a general distaste for having something mandated by the government which might not be the best for my equipment.

I often vote, and when I do, it is usually for whom I believe will reduce the level of government intrusion/involvement in my life and the lives of my fellow citizens.

On that note....I've been peeing in the wind since I turned 18. I have come to the conclusion that "such a politician" does not exist.

Therefore, I've resorted to a defensive posture and prepare and maintain my equipment, adapt my savings plan, etc...accordingly....

posted 09-08-2009 04:35 PM ET (US)            

There are several types and customers can vary - but basically, it is a fueling station that is not manned - you roll up, us a card to unlock the station/pump, fuel the vehicle and leave.

Many commercial fleets operate out of card lock stations - i.e. the driver uses his membership card to fuel the vehicle on the company account, etc.

There are also private fuel co-ops that use the card lock model.

I don't know if you have to purchase fuel in advance (i.e. a monthly deposit) or can arrange to be billed on a monthly basis.

posted 09-08-2009 05:11 PM ET (US)            

Most cardlock customers are a commercial business. The fuel card I issue, Pacific Pride, can be restricted by type of fuel purchased, time of day and days of week purchased, amount of fuel purchased by day, week or month, job number referenced and MPG/cost per mile referenced. The monthly invoice shows the complete detail of every fuel purchase and breaks out all the different Federal, State, and local taxes. It is a way for a business to control who, when, what, and how much fuel is purchased by their employees.

Some cardlock locations can sell as little as 100 gallons a day and some sell 10000 gallons a day. It all depends on the location and the nearby customer base.

John

posted 09-13-2009 11:06 AM ET (US)            

E-10 was added to all the Florida service stations in the last two years. However, I was delighted to discover that the marinas however are still E-10 free. They use a Valvetech brand. I pay a little more than going to the service station, but to me it's worth it in maintenance costs avoided.

I checked my 1984 Evinrude 90 VRO up north afer 2 years winter storage. The aluminum under RPS portable tanks were emptied, but I found the rubber washer under the vent cap spring was all sticky from ethanol eating away at it.
Added a Racor two years ago and burn the carburetors clean. Despite running the carbs dry, their is still residue in the carburetors which will need to be torn down and cleaned next spring.

Ethanol problems are real.

posted 09-13-2009 11:51 AM ET (US)            

While fueling up, I noticed an interesting sign at the fuel dock. It was a large sign, probably 4'x3' that was mounted on the exterior wall of the fuel dock shack. It was filled with verbage announcing the fact that you were pumping an E10 fuel mixture into your boat fuel tank and warnings concerning the E10.

It has been quite a while since I saw the sign, so I cannot quote the information, but it recommended filters, alcohol resistant equipment, proper maintenace, etc. It also implied that the marina was not to be held responsible for fuel system problems.

I have never seen a sign at a fuel dock concerning fuel system problems before E10 fuel was introduced. It seems to me to be an indicator that there are problems now, that were not there before the introduction of E10 fuel.

If I can find non E10, I think I will just stick with that. If I can't, then I will deal with it.

Doug Vazquez