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Author Topic:   OUTRAGE 18: Conventional Canvas v. T-Top

gyzmo47 posted 01-19-2010 04:25 PM ET (US)
[My OUTRAGE 18] will be used for fishing and maybe the odd overnight trip. From owners [of a Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 18] that have T-tops: do you have enclosures for protection in colder climate? From those with Mills or similar full canvas: do you have enclosures for protection in colder climate? I have a radar arch and no canvas. I want to add both sun and cold protection. Can the Mills front and side curtains be used without having the forward shelter up? Thanks Ted
Buckda posted 01-19-2010 04:45 PM ET (US)
I have a radar arch and full Mills weather protection system on my 18' Outrage. For cold weather protection, nothing compares to the Mills system or a full enclosure with the exception of a full pilot house. That said, you cannot use the windshield without the forward shelter deployed, and there is not much point in having the side curtains up without the windshield.
For hard-core fishing where you need the 360 degree fishability, I think you'll be better off with a T-TOP type system.
Since you already have the arch, however, I suggest you consider the trade-off. I fish my 18 in Lake Michigan early and late season and generally leave the shelter, forward windshield and flying top in place at all times - and add/remove the side curtains as conditions and temperature warrant. I can still do plenty of fishing out the back, and it allows me to run a propane "Mr. Heater" up front under the shelter (Bungeed down) when trolling. With the side curtains up, this provides a suprising amount of heat that keeps the windshield free of fog and generally keeps your hands pretty warm. At the beginning or end of the day, I usually put up the rear curtain and run with the full enclosure for added warmth - especially when flakes or rain are forecast - it warms up really quickly and makes things very comfortable for the ride out and back.
Don88outrage posted 01-19-2010 04:46 PM ET (US)
If you fish I have to vote for the T-top keeping in mind the center console's design intent was for 360 degree fishability. After five years of dealing with fishing under the OEM sun top it was sold and replaced by a T-top. The other benifits of the T-top include a place to mount antennas, rod holders, life jacket storage and if you add an electronics, added storage ang a great location for your VHF.
Buckda posted 01-19-2010 04:58 PM ET (US)
Ted--Given your location on the Eastern Shores of Lake Huron, I have to ask which is the higher priority.
There aren't many species of fish in the Great Lakes that require the "360 degree fishability". For ocean use, I totally understand that - I imagine fighting a Kingfish or Barracuda or Grouper would really require you to work the fish...but I can say that I've caught my share of decent fish - including a 42 inch monster pike and more than a few 35 inch plus trout and salmon. I've never really felt the need to work the fish to the front of the boat, etc.
Just curious.
I'm going through this same decision for a 22' Guardian project I'm working on, but think that it will get an Arch and canvas as well - just like my 18.
Dave
gyzmo47 posted 01-19-2010 06:34 PM ET (US)
Dave I have looked at pictures of your 18 many times over and my first and I think last decision will be going with Mills I just had to get some unthought of input from the guys with the Ts. I will be doing the salmon and Lake Erie walleye so fishing will be off the back half of boat. How much room do you have between your top and the arch, I want to lower mine as much as possible? Would like to see a picture with all the canvas up as I know we will spend the night sooner or later. Thanks for the posts. Ted
number9 posted 01-19-2010 08:22 PM ET (US)
I was fortunate enough to purchase a Outrage 18 equipped with a T-top and forward and side enclosures in place since day two. Much warm and hot day and cool evening cruising. Cuts the cool when needed and on the hot days cuts the tiring wind on the eyes and body without cutting the breezes. Wish the forward portion rolled down versus up on the cool nights to provide more protection and better visibility forward.
jimh posted 01-20-2010 09:21 AM ET (US)
I cannot imagine how one could have both a RADAR arch and a T-Top on any boat, and particularly one as small as an OUTRAGE 18. It seems to me that you'd have one or the other, not both.
Buckda posted 01-20-2010 09:32 AM ET (US)
Mine is about as low as I want it to go - about 3 inches clearance from the flying top. You need that clearance to "set" the top - the forward bow on the top actually angles upward some before going forward, so you need that clearance to make it fit. When placing the arch, I had a team of friends hold the arch in position while I worked the bows and set the canvas to make sure it would clear.
On that front, you may wish to get a local supplier to make your canvas to ensure that it will fit. Adjustments could also be made to the slider rail that would allow you to work around any challenges in the current position of your arch.
Here's an image of the boat with all the canvas up except the back curtain:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/ End%20of%20season%2006/IMG_8691.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/ End%20of%20season%2006/?action=view¤t=IMG_8687.jpg
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30854063&l=74e59bfe17& id=1383963684
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30005050&l=a5aa11395c& id=1383963684
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30005418&l=a55d86c38b& id=1383963684
Here it is with all the canvas up:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30920668&l=2e7b953035& id=1383963684
lizard posted 01-20-2010 10:28 AM ET (US)
Currently, I have a Mills set, missing the main forward window (the one just in front of the console) that came with the boat. I have been hesitant to order the missing window as I am concerned that with all of the canvas deployed, I will not be able to see well over the console due to my height. I am 5'2".
As such, I have been considering a T-top w/canvas. This is our west coast rig, and as such, is generally used in favorable weather. That said, there are days where the canvas would be nice.
Additionally, I have considered a Pacific Pilothouse.
I have not attempted to set up my canvas to see what my view is like, as I am missing a core piece of the enclosure.
Anyone out there as short as me using a Mills set on their Outrage?
high sierra posted 01-20-2010 12:02 PM ET (US)
Lizard, I'm 5'11 and I have all the Mills canavas as well for my 18 outrage. I don't use it as I can't sit and see over the front shelter. After a couple of near misses running over fishing lines, boats and debris , it's too much of a pain in the posterior. Another thing how do you put up or down the shelter when the glass is like a potatoe chip and is just waiting to crack. Now if it was in a rainy climate, I would put it up. The cold is tolerable most of the time. Also it's like looking through your glasses covered with rain. Distorted and blurry. high sierra
high sierra posted 01-20-2010 12:11 PM ET (US)
I might also say the canvas looks VERY neat in Dave's pictures. The climate is the determining factor I must admit. high sierra
gyzmo47 posted 01-20-2010 01:40 PM ET (US)
Thanks Dave. I am going to take my arch off and turn it around and will be able to trim the height as I see fit. Will wait until spring when the covers come off and pester you again for a measurement from the arch down to the deck. Ted
lizard posted 01-20-2010 11:34 PM ET (US)
High Sierra- THANK YOU, for this input. It is exactly what I feared to be the case. In time, I will be posting the pieces of the Mills canvas for sale.
I am going to proceed now with pricing out a Pacific Pilothouse. I think that they are a beautiful compliment to a Classic Whaler.
If I can't justify the pilothouse cost, I will look for a T-top with side/back canvas.
Anyone who wants Mills canvas for an 18 Outrage, let me know, I will send photos. You need to order the missing piece from Mills.
Buckda posted 01-21-2010 09:09 AM ET (US)
Lizard -
Do you have a leaning post or the seats? I'm 5'8" and have no trouble at all with visibility over the shelter - but I also have a leaning post.
Dave
lizard posted 01-21-2010 10:23 AM ET (US)
Dave- I have a leaning post, but I also have the original seats. I do not like the leaning post the prior owner installed and it is going. I have not decided what to put in next, probably a better leaning post, I have to stand when underway to see over the console.
Buckda posted 01-21-2010 10:32 AM ET (US)
If you stand anyway, then the forward shelter will NOT inhibit your vision. The highest "bar" for the shelter is about an inch higher than the top bar of the console.
Something to consider, as you already have the gear. (Of course, you're free to do what you want!).
Best,
Dave
gyzmo47 posted 01-21-2010 02:38 PM ET (US)
Lizard. I have decided to go with Mills canvas and would be interested in seeing pictures of what you have, also send a picture of the leaning post and the dimensions as I will probably be switching out my swivel seats for a leaning post. send the pics to "tedcarthy@tnt21.com". thanks
pglein posted 01-22-2010 01:35 PM ET (US)
My canvas is not a Mills, but is a pretty close replica (especially the forward shelter). I'm 6'1" and can't sit at the helm and see over it. It's simply not intended to be used that way. You have to stand. Any forward shelter short enough to allow you to sit would not allow you to get underneath it effectively.
I have been thinking about having a flat cover for the bow made, however, that would utilize the existing snaps around the bow, and come all the way back to the console, providing a little shelter from the wind for the feet as well as a dry place to toss gear. It could even have a zipper up the staboard side to allow it to be quickly folded out of the way for access forward when docking.
Buckda posted 01-23-2010 01:35 PM ET (US)
Peter -
Here is a photo of a similar setup:
http://www.continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage18.html
(1st photo).
lizard posted 01-24-2010 10:53 AM ET (US)
When I stand/lean into the leaning post, my eyes are about level with the horizontal rail incorporated into the console/Shepherd's Crook railing. I am pretty short and have to tip toe to really see the bow well. I wish I had the missing piece of the Mills system and then I could just assemble it to see what my view is like. I'll have to wait until someone with an 18 and a Mills set happens along my way.
In general, it appears to be in good condition, though I think I would replace the eisenglass windows in the bow piece. The stainless is in good shape, zippers seem good, no tears or stains on the canvas.
I like the look of a nice T-top, but since this boat is likely to be slipped, that means another custom mooring cover. I keep going back to the Pacific Pilothouse site and thinking about a pilothouse with custom canvas drapes to wrap around a leaning post and a back curtain w/window.
I've owned a number of convertible cars, none of which had actual glass in the rear window. It did not take much time for me to feel irritated with the view through the clear window and that is how I feel about eisenglass. Ultimately, as most decisions do, it may just come down to $$$.

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Author	Topic: OUTRAGE 18: Conventional Canvas v. T-Top
gyzmo47	posted 01-19-2010 04:25 PM ET (US) [My OUTRAGE 18] will be used for fishing and maybe the odd overnight trip. From owners [of a Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 18] that have T-tops: do you have enclosures for protection in colder climate? From those with Mills or similar full canvas: do you have enclosures for protection in colder climate? I have a radar arch and no canvas. I want to add both sun and cold protection. Can the Mills front and side curtains be used without having the forward shelter up? Thanks Ted
Buckda	posted 01-19-2010 04:45 PM ET (US) I have a radar arch and full Mills weather protection system on my 18' Outrage. For cold weather protection, nothing compares to the Mills system or a full enclosure with the exception of a full pilot house. That said, you cannot use the windshield without the forward shelter deployed, and there is not much point in having the side curtains up without the windshield. For hard-core fishing where you need the 360 degree fishability, I think you'll be better off with a T-TOP type system. Since you already have the arch, however, I suggest you consider the trade-off. I fish my 18 in Lake Michigan early and late season and generally leave the shelter, forward windshield and flying top in place at all times - and add/remove the side curtains as conditions and temperature warrant. I can still do plenty of fishing out the back, and it allows me to run a propane "Mr. Heater" up front under the shelter (Bungeed down) when trolling. With the side curtains up, this provides a suprising amount of heat that keeps the windshield free of fog and generally keeps your hands pretty warm. At the beginning or end of the day, I usually put up the rear curtain and run with the full enclosure for added warmth - especially when flakes or rain are forecast - it warms up really quickly and makes things very comfortable for the ride out and back.
Don88outrage	posted 01-19-2010 04:46 PM ET (US) If you fish I have to vote for the T-top keeping in mind the center console's design intent was for 360 degree fishability. After five years of dealing with fishing under the OEM sun top it was sold and replaced by a T-top. The other benifits of the T-top include a place to mount antennas, rod holders, life jacket storage and if you add an electronics, added storage ang a great location for your VHF.
Buckda	posted 01-19-2010 04:58 PM ET (US) Ted--Given your location on the Eastern Shores of Lake Huron, I have to ask which is the higher priority. There aren't many species of fish in the Great Lakes that require the "360 degree fishability". For ocean use, I totally understand that - I imagine fighting a Kingfish or Barracuda or Grouper would really require you to work the fish...but I can say that I've caught my share of decent fish - including a 42 inch monster pike and more than a few 35 inch plus trout and salmon. I've never really felt the need to work the fish to the front of the boat, etc. Just curious. I'm going through this same decision for a 22' Guardian project I'm working on, but think that it will get an Arch and canvas as well - just like my 18. Dave
gyzmo47	posted 01-19-2010 06:34 PM ET (US) Dave I have looked at pictures of your 18 many times over and my first and I think last decision will be going with Mills I just had to get some unthought of input from the guys with the Ts. I will be doing the salmon and Lake Erie walleye so fishing will be off the back half of boat. How much room do you have between your top and the arch, I want to lower mine as much as possible? Would like to see a picture with all the canvas up as I know we will spend the night sooner or later. Thanks for the posts. Ted
number9	posted 01-19-2010 08:22 PM ET (US) I was fortunate enough to purchase a Outrage 18 equipped with a T-top and forward and side enclosures in place since day two. Much warm and hot day and cool evening cruising. Cuts the cool when needed and on the hot days cuts the tiring wind on the eyes and body without cutting the breezes. Wish the forward portion rolled down versus up on the cool nights to provide more protection and better visibility forward.
jimh	posted 01-20-2010 09:21 AM ET (US) I cannot imagine how one could have both a RADAR arch and a T-Top on any boat, and particularly one as small as an OUTRAGE 18. It seems to me that you'd have one or the other, not both.
Buckda	posted 01-20-2010 09:32 AM ET (US) Mine is about as low as I want it to go - about 3 inches clearance from the flying top. You need that clearance to "set" the top - the forward bow on the top actually angles upward some before going forward, so you need that clearance to make it fit. When placing the arch, I had a team of friends hold the arch in position while I worked the bows and set the canvas to make sure it would clear. On that front, you may wish to get a local supplier to make your canvas to ensure that it will fit. Adjustments could also be made to the slider rail that would allow you to work around any challenges in the current position of your arch. Here's an image of the boat with all the canvas up except the back curtain: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/ End%20of%20season%2006/IMG_8691.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/ End%20of%20season%2006/?action=view¤t=IMG_8687.jpg http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30854063&l=74e59bfe17& id=1383963684 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30005050&l=a5aa11395c& id=1383963684 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30005418&l=a55d86c38b& id=1383963684 Here it is with all the canvas up: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30920668&l=2e7b953035& id=1383963684
lizard	posted 01-20-2010 10:28 AM ET (US) Currently, I have a Mills set, missing the main forward window (the one just in front of the console) that came with the boat. I have been hesitant to order the missing window as I am concerned that with all of the canvas deployed, I will not be able to see well over the console due to my height. I am 5'2". As such, I have been considering a T-top w/canvas. This is our west coast rig, and as such, is generally used in favorable weather. That said, there are days where the canvas would be nice. Additionally, I have considered a Pacific Pilothouse. I have not attempted to set up my canvas to see what my view is like, as I am missing a core piece of the enclosure. Anyone out there as short as me using a Mills set on their Outrage?
high sierra	posted 01-20-2010 12:02 PM ET (US) Lizard, I'm 5'11 and I have all the Mills canavas as well for my 18 outrage. I don't use it as I can't sit and see over the front shelter. After a couple of near misses running over fishing lines, boats and debris , it's too much of a pain in the posterior. Another thing how do you put up or down the shelter when the glass is like a potatoe chip and is just waiting to crack. Now if it was in a rainy climate, I would put it up. The cold is tolerable most of the time. Also it's like looking through your glasses covered with rain. Distorted and blurry. high sierra
high sierra	posted 01-20-2010 12:11 PM ET (US) I might also say the canvas looks VERY neat in Dave's pictures. The climate is the determining factor I must admit. high sierra
gyzmo47	posted 01-20-2010 01:40 PM ET (US) Thanks Dave. I am going to take my arch off and turn it around and will be able to trim the height as I see fit. Will wait until spring when the covers come off and pester you again for a measurement from the arch down to the deck. Ted
lizard	posted 01-20-2010 11:34 PM ET (US) High Sierra- THANK YOU, for this input. It is exactly what I feared to be the case. In time, I will be posting the pieces of the Mills canvas for sale. I am going to proceed now with pricing out a Pacific Pilothouse. I think that they are a beautiful compliment to a Classic Whaler. If I can't justify the pilothouse cost, I will look for a T-top with side/back canvas. Anyone who wants Mills canvas for an 18 Outrage, let me know, I will send photos. You need to order the missing piece from Mills.
Buckda	posted 01-21-2010 09:09 AM ET (US) Lizard - Do you have a leaning post or the seats? I'm 5'8" and have no trouble at all with visibility over the shelter - but I also have a leaning post. Dave
lizard	posted 01-21-2010 10:23 AM ET (US) Dave- I have a leaning post, but I also have the original seats. I do not like the leaning post the prior owner installed and it is going. I have not decided what to put in next, probably a better leaning post, I have to stand when underway to see over the console.
Buckda	posted 01-21-2010 10:32 AM ET (US) If you stand anyway, then the forward shelter will NOT inhibit your vision. The highest "bar" for the shelter is about an inch higher than the top bar of the console. Something to consider, as you already have the gear. (Of course, you're free to do what you want!). Best, Dave
gyzmo47	posted 01-21-2010 02:38 PM ET (US) Lizard. I have decided to go with Mills canvas and would be interested in seeing pictures of what you have, also send a picture of the leaning post and the dimensions as I will probably be switching out my swivel seats for a leaning post. send the pics to "tedcarthy@tnt21.com". thanks
pglein	posted 01-22-2010 01:35 PM ET (US) My canvas is not a Mills, but is a pretty close replica (especially the forward shelter). I'm 6'1" and can't sit at the helm and see over it. It's simply not intended to be used that way. You have to stand. Any forward shelter short enough to allow you to sit would not allow you to get underneath it effectively. I have been thinking about having a flat cover for the bow made, however, that would utilize the existing snaps around the bow, and come all the way back to the console, providing a little shelter from the wind for the feet as well as a dry place to toss gear. It could even have a zipper up the staboard side to allow it to be quickly folded out of the way for access forward when docking.
Buckda	posted 01-23-2010 01:35 PM ET (US) Peter - Here is a photo of a similar setup: http://www.continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage18.html (1st photo).
lizard	posted 01-24-2010 10:53 AM ET (US) When I stand/lean into the leaning post, my eyes are about level with the horizontal rail incorporated into the console/Shepherd's Crook railing. I am pretty short and have to tip toe to really see the bow well. I wish I had the missing piece of the Mills system and then I could just assemble it to see what my view is like. I'll have to wait until someone with an 18 and a Mills set happens along my way. In general, it appears to be in good condition, though I think I would replace the eisenglass windows in the bow piece. The stainless is in good shape, zippers seem good, no tears or stains on the canvas. I like the look of a nice T-top, but since this boat is likely to be slipped, that means another custom mooring cover. I keep going back to the Pacific Pilothouse site and thinking about a pilothouse with custom canvas drapes to wrap around a leaning post and a back curtain w/window. I've owned a number of convertible cars, none of which had actual glass in the rear window. It did not take much time for me to feel irritated with the view through the clear window and that is how I feel about eisenglass. Ultimately, as most decisions do, it may just come down to $$$.