Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
  Carp In the Lakes

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Carp In the Lakes
contender posted 02-11-2010 08:55 PM ET (US)   Profile for contender   Send Email to contender  
[The following is apparently not at all the work of this author but instead the work of someone else, possibly a writer carried by the Associated Press--jimh]

Two Asian carp are displayed Tuesday, Feb. 9, 2010, on Capitol Hill in Washington, during a Subcommittee

By JOHN FLESHER, AP Environmental Writer John Flesher, Ap Environmental Writer

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. – The surest way to keep rampaging Asian carp from gaining a foothold in the Great Lakes is to sever the link between Lake Michigan and the Mississippi River basin, created by engineers in Chicago more than a century ago.

That would thrill environmentalists and those who make their living in the $7 billion Great Lakes fishing industry, which could be devastated by a carp invasion. Not so the barge operators who move millions of tons of commodities on the Chicago-area waterways each year.

And so, pulled in different directions by both, as well as politicians in the Great Lakes states, the Obama administration this week proposed a $78.5 million plan that appears to make no one happy.

"It appears to be politically negotiated rather than scientifically based ... sort of like trying to cut the baby in half," said Thom Cmar, an attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council. "It offers a lot of middle-ground alternatives with no discussion of why any of them would actually work."

Shippers worry about a promised study that would examine closing more often a pair of navigational locks at Chicago, and the prospect that a long-term study could recommend severing the connection between the river and the lakes for good.

Environmentalists, meanwhile, fear the plan's reliance on strengthening an electric barrier designed to block the carp's advance — and other measures, such as stepping up efforts to find and kill fish that may have slipped through — is an expensive gamble that might not be enough to ward off an infestation.

"We're spending close to $80 million just for a short-term deterrent," said Joel Brammeier, president of the Alliance for the Great Lakes, an environmental group. "We need to stop pushing money toward temporary solutions and get everyone on track toward investing in one that works for good — and that means absolute physical separation."

Bighead and silver carp — both native to Asia — have been migrating toward the lakes since escaping from Deep South fish ponds and sewage treatment plants in the 1970s. The biggest can reach 100 pounds and 4 feet long, consuming up to 40 percent of their body weight daily in plankton, the base of the aquatic food chain. Once established in the lakes, the carp could starve out the prey fish on which popular species such as salmon and whitefish depend.

The carp have already infested parts of the Mississippi and Illinois rivers, driving away many native fish. Silver carp are known to hurtle from the water at the sound of passing motors and slam into boaters with bone-breaking force.

While scientists differ on whether the carp would thrive in the Great Lakes, which are colder, deeper and ecologically different than rivers, many say the risk is too great to take any chances.

"None of us know for certain what their impact would be," University of Notre Dame biologist David Lodge told a House subcommittee this week. "There's only one way to find out, and I don't think any of us want that."

To be fair, the solution environmentalists prefer — cutting ties between the lakes and the Mississippi — would mean reconfiguring some 70 miles of canals and rivers. That's a massive undertaking that could not happen quickly. "We cannot fight biology with engineering alone," Cameron Davis, the Environmental Protection Agency's spokesman on the issue, told the congressional panel.

Yet the federal plan is heavy on technological innovations. Among them: barriers using sound, strobe lights and bubble curtains to repel carp and biological controls to prevent them from reproducing. They're promising measures, but still on the drawing board.

Environmentalists and Great Lakes governors outside of Illinois who want to close the Chicago locks claim it's the best short-term option. But it isn't a foolproof solution, as young carp might still be able to slip through the leaky structures. The Chicago waterways also have other access points to Lake Michigan.

Army Corps of Engineers officials are putting their faith in the two-tiered electric barrier in the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal about 25 miles from Lake Michigan, to which they will add a third section this year. It emits pulses to scare off the carp or knock them unconscious if they don't turn back. No carp have been found above the barrier, although biologists have detected their DNA in numerous spots past it and even within the lake itself.

"While we're all talking," Lodge said, "the fish are swimming."

That almost certainly means at least some carp have eluded the device and reached the lake. The government's plan aims to keep their number low enough to prevent them from breeding. The problem is that no one knows how many carp need to make it into the lake to establish a foothold that can't be turned back.

"This is a lot of money to pile into stopgap measures," said Phil Moy, a University of Wisconsin Sea Grant researcher. "It may do some good in the short term, but in the long term it's not going to solve the problem of invasive species on both sides of the divide. Ecological separation has to happen for this to be successful."

___

jimh posted 02-11-2010 09:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
To use an old figure of speech, the Great Lakes have been sold down the river.
MarthaB posted 02-12-2010 06:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for MarthaB  Send Email to MarthaB     
Jim - John Flesher is an Associate Press writer home based in Traverse City, Michigan.
foghorn posted 02-13-2010 04:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for foghorn  Send Email to foghorn     
A Toronto newspaper recently reported that several supermarkets catering to Asian customers were fined for selling live Asian carp. The presumption is that the live fish found were part of a larger shipment. And is evidence that there are willing buyers and sellers of these live fish in large, ethnically diverse cities. If a truck carrying a load of live carp goes off a bridge somewhere
along the shore of one of the Great Lakes while enroute to a city where these fish are in demand, this whole discussion is moot at best.

Foghorn

deepwater posted 02-14-2010 07:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for deepwater  Send Email to deepwater     
Why in the world would Canada want live Asian carp,, I'm sure they know the problems were having with them
Thirsty Whaler posted 02-23-2010 08:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Thirsty Whaler  Send Email to Thirsty Whaler     
In the Asian culture, purchasing live fish ensures freshness. This is indeed the fear among fishery managers,live fish dumpted into the system. Reference the introduction of the Northern Snakehead.
fourdfish posted 02-23-2010 08:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for fourdfish  Send Email to fourdfish     
I have checked all the reliable sources I could find and so far not a single asian carp (fish) has been found on the lake side of the electric fence. I am also in favor of filling in and closeing access at that point so they cannot swim into the lake.
cgodfrey posted 06-24-2010 06:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for cgodfrey  Send Email to cgodfrey     
Milwaukee's Journal Sentinal published an article confirming Asian Carp have breached the electric fence barrier.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/97003199.html

Asian carp discovered near Lake Michigan
No plans to close locks despite discovery

By Dan Egan of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 23, 2010

A 19-pound Asian carp has been found near the shore of Lake Michigan, above a navigation lock that regional political leaders had been demanding the Army Corps slam shut to try to keep the invaders out of the world's largest freshwater system.

The fish confirms what DNA evidence had been telling fishery managers for months - that Asian carp had indeed breached an electric fish barrier on the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal, considered the last line of defense for Lake Michigan.

The bighead - nearly 3 feet long - is the first actual Asian carp found above the barrier, despite weeks of netting on the canal system and a $1.5 million fish-poisoning program last month.

It was plucked Tuesday from Lake Calumet, about six miles downstream from Lake Michigan, by a commercial fisherman hired by the state of Illinois to do routine fish sampling in the area.

"We set out earlier this year on a fact finding mission and we have found what we were looking for," John Rogner, assistant director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources, said in a news release Wednesday. "This is important evidence and the more information we have about where Asian carp are, the better chance we have of keeping them out of the Great Lakes."

The federal government said it has no intention to order shut two navigation locks in the area, something regional politicians outside Illinois have been demanding for months.

The plan is to continue "sampling actions" in Lake Calumet, which is north of the O'Brien lock, as well as other areas on the Chicago canal system. This will involve netting and electrofishing.

Biologists say a handful of fish making their way into Lake Michigan does not mean a self-sustaining population is going to get established. They say most initial invasions fail because the fish must find a suitable place to reproduce, then they must find each other and then their offspring must survive long enough to reproduce on their own. Then, of course, the cycle has to repeat itself. Over and over.

"We remain firmly committed to achieving our collective goal of preventing Asian carp from becoming established in Great Lakes waters," said Mike Weimer, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service assistant regional director of the fisheries and aquatic resources program.

Meanwhile, federal officials say they will do their best to keep it business-as-usual for the barges, tour boats and recreational boat owners who use the navigation locks to move between the waterways and Lake Michigan.

"The Army Corps of Engineers will continue to operate the locks and dams in the Chicago Area Waterway System for congressionally authorized purposes of navigation, water diversion and flood control," said Col. Vincent Quarles of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
'Worst fears' realized

Michigan Attorney General and gubernatorial hopeful Mike Cox said the find means that the region's "worst fears" have been realized, and he is considering further legal action.

The Republican led a coalition of Great Lakes states this year, including Wisconsin, in a push to reopen a decades-old U.S. Supreme Court lawsuit over of the operation of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal.

He wanted the court to order the locks shut, something the court declined to do.

"President Obama and the Army Corps of Engineers have simply refused to take the threat seriously," Cox's office said in a statement.

But the news came as a relief to an industry group that depends on the navigation locks, which Army Corps officials say were never designed to be used as fish barriers.

"As the government's own studies have shown, lock closure undermines the resources and regional support necessary to solve this problem, while doing nothing to protect the Great Lakes," said Mark Biel, executive director of the Chemical Industry Council of Illinois.
Not necessarily a breach

Biel also said the fish find doesn't necessarily prove there has been a breach at the electric fish barrier downstream on the Sanitary and Ship Canal, a sentiment echoed by Rogner of the Illinois DNR.

Rogner said in a Wednesday conference call with reporters that he is not convinced the fish made it to Lake Calumet on its own. He noted that in the past decade there were two occasions where Asian carp were found in Chicago lagoons, bodies of water not connected to Lake Michigan. Those fish likely were planted by individuals - live bighead were once commonly sold in Asian fish markets in the Chicago area.

Of course, Rogner said, it is also possible the fish somehow swam through the barrier; the Army Corps did not turn up the fish-shocking device to a level strong enough to repel all sizes of Asian carp until the middle of last year, when the first DNA tests indicated the fish were mustering in an area just below it.

Conservationists Wednesday said they weren't surprised by the news.

"The (environmental) DNA has told us for months that the threat is real. It's time to stop fighting about whether there's a problem and move on to developing real solutions," said Thom Cmar of the Natural Resources Defense Council. "Asian carp are like cockroaches. If you find one, you likely have a much larger problem on your hands."

Buckda posted 06-24-2010 08:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Don't look to the feds for help. Look at what they have done to help Louisiana in their quest to keep oil off their beaches.

Don't look to Illinois to help either. They are listed as #8 on the list of sovereign (Ha, now THAT is a joke) debt most likely NOT to be repaid.

Don't look to Michigan to help. We're stuck with a lame-duck governor who has federal aspirations with the current federal administration that won't help in the first place.

Given the location near Hammond, perhaps BP can help. They're dumping stuff in Lake Michigan down there - perhaps they can poison Lake Calumet instead.

Good luck Lake Michigan. May your waters prove cold and unwelcoming to this invasive species.

PeteB88 posted 06-24-2010 10:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
Those carp must be stopped. We cannot depend on usual channels, courts, legislature, governmental officials and especially environmental groups to solve this problem. As I have tried to articulate in more than one venue this is entirely up to the citizens to get involved and pressure (in a positive, sophisticated way)

The blame game does not accomplish anything. The only thing that has ever made a difference is direct involvement which makes many people, especially top guys and officials very uncomfortable.

Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

- Margaret Mead

If this was Crater Lake, a couple hours from where I used to live, there'd be 20,000 people up there protecting that natural wonder by stopping that Asia Carp freaking period. Makeshift effective electronic weirs would have been in place months ago for less than a few thousand bucks. Effective measures would be on the table and ready to deploy.

The bureaucrats call meetings the activits get 'er done. Somehow this has to happen for the Great Lakes. BLOGS have ruined direct involvement. I'm willing to take things to the next level.

PeteB88 posted 06-24-2010 11:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
RE environmental groups. John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt would not recognize these organizations which have become (mostly) grant chasers. They own their existence to not rocking the boat with officials, legislatures and those who fund them. When Ellen created Don't Waste Michgan to stop the nuclear wasted dumps in Michigan including ones planned for the shores of Lake Michigan the environmental groups refused to get involved telling them 'it's a done deal..." The only group that had the guts to do something was Michigan United Conservation Clubs (MUCC) who, under Tom Washington's leadership kicked butt.

Onward -

elaelap posted 06-24-2010 01:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for elaelap  Send Email to elaelap     
[Began a discussion about the discussions.]
pcrussell50 posted 06-24-2010 06:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for pcrussell50  Send Email to pcrussell50     
[Commented about the discussion about the discussion.]
David Pendleton posted 06-24-2010 07:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Pendleton  Send Email to David Pendleton     
"The bighead - nearly 3 feet long - is the first actual Asian carp found above the barrier, despite weeks of netting on the canal system and a $1.5 million fish-poisoning program last month."

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

This money (our money) is wasted.

There's only way money is going to solve this problem--and I do believe money can solve the problem.

Bounty.

Make it profitable to harvest these fish, and we'll overfish them in no time.

History backs me up...

David Pendleton posted 06-24-2010 07:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for David Pendleton  Send Email to David Pendleton     
Even if grammar and sentence structure does not...
tjxtreme posted 06-24-2010 07:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for tjxtreme    
http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/silverfin/

They are trying to start a commercial fishery for Asian Carp in Louisiana. I've yet to try it... and it even has a new, more delicious, name: "silverfin."

pcrussell50 posted 06-24-2010 07:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for pcrussell50  Send Email to pcrussell50     
Dave,

100% agreed. Only I'll ad that not only history backs you up, but human nature itself does.

Leaders who fail utilize/power/channel natural human self-interest in a constructive way, are fighting an uphill battle that, in the long term, can not be won.

-Peter

pcrussell50 posted 06-24-2010 07:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for pcrussell50  Send Email to pcrussell50     
tjextreme sez:
quote:
They are trying to start a commercial fishery for Asian Carp in Louisiana. I've yet to try it... and it even has a new, more delicious, name: "silverfin."

Along those lines, I was on a layover in Jackson, MS not too long ago, and the cab driver who took us from the downtown Sheraton, back to the airport was clearly a _seriously_ avid fisherman, as well as a natural charmer with the "gift of gab". Anyway, I decided to tap his vast well of information about edible local species, including catfish, the farm-raised variety of which, I'm quite fond of, here in southern California.

Anyway, I asked him about carp, (not knowing one variety from another), and he said what we already know... that most people don't eat carp. BUT, he said, people who are both poor and resourceful, in need of good protein, have figured out how to make it palatable. He said that with carp, they pressure-cook and can it, which makes the incidental bones soft and edible. He said, properly prepared, it's almost indistinguishable from canned salmon.

I found that to be interesting, and have no reason to doubt it.

-Peter

PeteB88 posted 06-25-2010 01:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
Look, we don't want those carp in the Great Lakes and if you don't live around here you do not know. I have had direct contact with...several top fisheries scientists in this state including one with significant prestige that I might be able to quote sometime soon. 100% of them say Asia Carp must be stopped or they will, in time, ruin the fishery and most dramatically the rivers and streams where salmon, steelhead and native warm water fish spawn and/or live. I think this has been confirmed.

We DO NOT want any invasive specie trash fish to be considered for commercial fishing for a variety of reasons. First there has been a significant level of mercury contamination in Great Lakes fish and Mr A Carp will not be immune to that - "contaminated" fish are likely not to be approved for widespread consumption. This would have to be debated an ddeliberated.

We DO NOT want the A Carp in the Great Lakes so if you want to fish farm Silverfin or A Carp or Carpe Grande put them in your reservoirs in California (no not California I love California) or Arizona ( not sure MR A Carp would pass your new immigration laws, better check with the authorities there), or one of the hundreds - stimulate your own economy.

What has not been discussed, while people play the blame game, is the issue of interstate commerce that is in my mind the center of the question regarding closing the Illinois shipping channel. It's my assumption, from studying Constitutional law in college that this is the big deal preventing easy solution. I recall the US Constitution and many US Supreme Court cases were about interstate commerce which have major impact on just about everything. I am sure our legal professionals out there in CW land can confirm or comment.

We have had enough problems here - a billion dollar industry as a result of Great Lakes salmon and tourism at critical risk if A Carp gets in the system - all confirmed by just about everyone in fisheries here with one exception I won't get into here.

Whalers Hate A Carp - I don't want the slimy bastards jumping in my Whaler.

tjxtreme posted 06-25-2010 11:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for tjxtreme    
I don't recall anyone suggesting that the presence of asian carp be encouraged, only that IF they do enter, a commercial fishery could be established to help deal with the invasion.

I would also point out that not all commercial fisheries are for direct human consumption- fish meal? oil? etc..

David Pendleton posted 06-25-2010 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for David Pendleton  Send Email to David Pendleton     
Pete, it too late for that. There's no keeping them out of the lakes.

I'm not suggesting harvesting these things for food, just money. Catch them, kill them and toss them in a hole. 1.5 million wasted on poisoning could go a long way towards a per-pound bounty.

And I do "live around here," they're already in my back yard.

PeteB88 posted 06-25-2010 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
It's not too late.
PeteB88 posted 06-25-2010 01:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
Even I, ME cannot possibly catch that many fish even with fishing luck Ellen in the boat.

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.