posted 02-20-2010 10:53 PM ET (US)        

After having my local Boston Whaler dealer send digital pictures of this to Mercury, Mercury has denied any warranty claim as they describe it as "normal cosmetic corrosion" and that this is mentioned (somewhere) in my owner's manual, as if this makes it okay. It is strange that after only 71 hours I never had any "normal cosmetic corrosion" on other engine brands I have owned like Yamaha and Evinrude while operating it in the exact same manner, in the same location.

Add to this the intermittent poor running and missing of the engine (which the local Boston Whaler and Mercury dealer cannot find the fault), and I have lost all faith in both the engine and Mercury marine.

Along with the engine paint and performance problems, Whaler bundles seemingly the lowest quality trailer possible with the boat. For the amount of money this size boat cost, the Karavan galvanized trailer is unacceptable: Leaf springs and odd sized tires (that required replacing this month). For the amount this package cost, no less than an aluminum framed, torsion axle trailer should have been standard equipment.

At this point I'm not sure what to do with this thing. I spent what I feel is a lot of money (for a small boat) as I intended to keep it for quite a while, but at this rate, it may not last very long.

posted 02-21-2010 09:05 AM ET (US)            

My steering arm attachement did that too. I have a Yamaha-Mercury FourStroke EFI 90hp that came with my new 2006 Montauk 170. The rest of the engine looks brand new so I'm not too worried about a little rusty and corroding piece of metal (where is meets the steering arm). It can be easily touched up if I had the time and energy. There was however a nick in the paint on the engine at delivery and I had the dealer take care of it on the spot.

RE: Karavan galvanized trailer and odd sized tires: If you mean your tires were not the same size on either side (odd pairing) I'd would have gone after the dealer that sold you the trailer. If you mean that the size of the tires are "odd" then I claim ignorance since this is my first boat and trailer and don't know what makes one trailer tire odd from another. I admit my trailer needs are not that great as I don't trailer the boat too far. I mean I have, just not often enough to give the trailer a real work out.

RE: Mercury Engine: I was lucky enough to get the last year Mercury was putting Yamaha power heads in their "Mercury" FourStroke EFI 90HP engines for the Montauk 170. I'm told the engine is more Yamaha than Mercury. I have had no problems with the engine which is covered until 2011. I know there were issues with the carbed version of my engine but have yet to find posts on this web site complaining of the EFI version. As you probably have the all Mercury version of the engine I can not comment on your issues except to say, "I'm sorry".

posted 02-21-2010 09:27 AM ET (US)            

Engine runs rough? Do you store it outside in the rain?

As far as the engine, it has been flawless. I wipe it down with a mix of vinegar and water to remove water spots and wax it once a year. I have plenty of lower unit and hull scars from northern lakes boating but they are all cosmetic. I didn't invest in my Whaler to set and look at it; we tow it to dozens of destinations a year and boat every day we can.

posted 02-21-2010 11:31 AM ET (US)            

To me, this clearly shows the downside to the "captive" packaging of motors and trailers with Whalers - Whaler ends up owning the reputation of the whole package.

posted 02-21-2010 02:32 PM ET (US)         

In the tropical (heat, humidity and strong sun) Salt conditions where I do my winter boating, most of the corroded engines I see are early Yamaha, old OMC's and black Suzukis.

I have 5 old Mercury engines, all with considerable salt water use, all with Mercury's EDP paint system: 2 1985's, 1 1988 and 2 1997's. They look practically brand new, no corrosion at all.

Maybe Joe's engine was painted by a guy having a bad day, or suffered some later touch up work, which can fail much more easily.

And of course, we don't know how Joe takes care of his rig.
Aluminum anodes need frequent replacing, and stray currents in the water, either from nearby boats or your own boat, can rapidly cause galvanic corrosion to engine parts.

As for the Caravan trailer under these 170's, I wouldn't have one either. It's about the cheapest trailer you can find. Not long ago I was talking to the owner of Continental trailers in Miami, who makes the keel roller trailers that I buy. He told me BW contacted him about supplying Whaler's galvanized trailers, but they told him his pricing was too high.

posted 02-21-2010 07:24 PM ET (US)            

The odd sized trailer tires aren't different from side to side, they are an "odd" size, at ST185/80-13 they are difficult to find. Most trailer tire manufacturers do not even carry them as an option. I have recently replaced the bias ply tires with radials (that I had to special order due to the size). I'm convinced the "odd" size is a product of trying to put too much boat weight on too small of a trailer. Most other trailers in that weight capacity range use 14" tires that handle more weight, but require larger capacity axles, fenders and associated equipment. Add to that it is galvanized and has high maintenance leaf springs, and it's not difficult to point out that Brunswick was attempting to cut costs, not provide a quality trailer at a premium boat/trailer cost.

I too am obviously let down with the corrosion issues, particularly after the care I give the engine. My 4 Yamaha's (and 1 Evinrude) in the past have never had any corrosion issues; since one out of the six has, I feel it must be the particular engine and not the care they received, nor the environment they are operated in.

The intermittent missing the engine has often is marked with a Smartcraft error that is readable on my Northstar Explorer 660 GPS unit. It typically takes 20-30 seconds of rough running before the alarm occurs. It begins to run on 3 of the 4 cylinders, as if it has a "dead hole". The BW dealer says the Smartcraft error points to a bad coil, but after replacing the affected coil, it still occurs. In fact, I have moved the coils around expecting the problem to follow the coil, but it does not--it is always on #3 cylinder. My local BW dealer saw the stored Smartcraft error, but has not been able to duplicate it. After about an hour of running today (the first time this year) I could tell at about 2500 rpm the engine was starting to miss, but it did not do it long enough to provoke an audible alarm. As I said, it is intermittent, and I am unable to purposely reproduce it.

posted 02-21-2010 07:26 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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That said, this is easy to fix. Scrape off the paint, clean it up with a wire brush (or a grinding wheel) and repaint it with Mercury touch-up paint.

---

posted 02-21-2010 07:34 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Maybe Joe's engine was painted by a guy having a bad day, or suffered some later touch up work, which can fail much more easily.

---

The first scenario isn't my issue, it is Mercury's..and if that is the case, they have failed to respond to it in an acceptable manner. I purchased the boat (and engine) new, and it has never been "touched up"..as far as I know. It certainly appears to be the paint from the factory.

[quote]The corrosion problems isn't limited to merc's.
I have a 2007 evinrude etec where the paint did bubble and flake off. Even had a small crack in the mid housing.
Took photos of it, sent it to my dealer and he forwarded to evinrude.
Evinrude took care of everything. Which I am very pleased.

posted 02-21-2010 10:25 PM ET (US)            

This is the only rust I have found on these 20-30+ year old motors. The paint on three of the four is original. I was cleaning up the back patio today and thought to myself- will the engines of today hold up to the same test of time?

Those old Johnsons are rock solid and dependable.

posted 02-21-2010 11:34 PM ET (US)            

fishinchips: The ignition coil (also called a pencil coil) is a one piece unit that is also the spark plug "wire". There are 4 individual coils, that each attach to their respective spark plug. There is no "wire", in as much as an older engine has a spark plug wires.

posted 02-21-2010 11:39 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

SC Joe: If you suspect a fuel starvation problem but can't find it, check the liner inside your fuel lines. My liner had collapsed inside my fuel lines, thus constricting the fuel flow. Remove your hose to your fuel tank and take a look.

Warren

---

I do not suspect a fuel starvation issue. The warning that the Smartcraft system gives is "EST 3 Short. Fault with signal from ECM to ignition driver module."

I brought this same condition up last year when it occurred here:

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002394.html

posted 02-21-2010 11:45 PM ET (US)            

Good luck,

posted 02-22-2010 12:22 PM ET (US)         

Now that he has done a great job of trashing his own 170 Montauk, the Mercury engine that came with it, and the trailer Boston Whaler furnishes, all soon to be for sale, who here would want to buy that boat for anything less than a give-away? He seems to have created his own perfect "white elephant", and it's probably not worth much with that 4-stroke Merc that doesn't run reliably. He should have upgraded to the 2-stroke 90 E-tec he was considering a while back, the last time he trashed the Merc. Then the package would have been worth more, in spite of the boat's cheap hardware and lousy trailer.

posted 02-22-2010 01:02 PM ET (US)            

As for worrying if anyone on here will be buying my BW, that's never really been a concern, has it? Seems like most folks here are much more content with 20 year old hulls than anything new, which in and of itself, had I researched on here should have told me something before purchasing it. And before I trade or sell it, I'll have to get it fixed, which seems to contain a growing list of things almost daily.

Jimh-I had replaced the #3 spark plug and coil last July when this problem first crept up, as well as replacing them all last week as a seasonal thing. Maintenance, or even the reluctance to throw a contained amount of money at the problem, hasn't been an issue. As the local BW dealer couldn't look at it last year over the July 4th holiday, I even purchased the replacement coil myself (that they somewhat understandably would not refund me).

posted 02-22-2010 04:26 PM ET (US)            

I am currently having my Yamaha F250 painted white to match my gelcoat on my 1995 Outrage 21 (and to differentiate it from another guy in Mt. Pleasant who bought my same boat, removed the blue stickers and replaced with red, and then put a Yamaha F225 on it).

It is being done on James Island. They will be using the same process Intrepid boatworks does in Florida. Intrepids often come with color matched engines, etc.

They use an Imron paint.

I know you want Mercury to cover it, but it is not expensive to get it done.

posted 02-22-2010 05:28 PM ET (US)            

I have a 40 hp Mercury on my 130 Sport. After about 4 years I noticed some bubbling of the paint on the lower unit. I figured since I had about 300 hours of salt water usage there was probably some corrosion under there. I put a stiff wire brush wheel on my drill and buffed up the area, spray painted with two coats of black primer and then two coats of Mercury black paint. Now a year and 100 hours more later, looks like new.

My motor was out of warranty after 1 year, so I had no option to go back to the dealer. Anyway, it only took about 30 minutes of my time to brush and spray the thing.

posted 02-22-2010 06:53 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I think Deepwater has the right idea and mindset about this matter.

I have a 40 hp Mercury on my 130 Sport. After about 4 years I noticed some bubbling of the paint on the lower unit. I figured since I had about 300 hours of salt water usage there was probably some corrosion under there. I put a stiff wire brush wheel on my drill and buffed up the area, spray painted with two coats of black primer and then two coats of Mercury black paint. Now a year and 100 hours more later, looks like new.

My motor was out of warranty after 1 year, so I had no option to go back to the dealer. Anyway, it only took about 30 minutes of my time to brush and spray the thing.

---

It sounds like Mercury needs to visit Yamaha and learn how to prep their engines for paint. No Yamaha I have ever owned (and used in exactly the same locations and manner) had any issues with the paint.

posted 02-22-2010 06:55 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Joe, I am in Mt. Pleasant as well.

I am currently having my Yamaha F250 painted white to match my gelcoat on my 1995 Outrage 21 (and to differentiate it from another guy in Mt. Pleasant who bought my same boat, removed the blue stickers and replaced with red, and then put a Yamaha F225 on it).

It is being done on James Island. They will be using the same process Intrepid boatworks does in Florida. Intrepids often come with color matched engines, etc.

They use an Imron paint.

I know you want Mercury to cover it, but it is not expensive to get it done.

---

If I keep the boat, I may email you to see who they are. Apparently, none of the paint is covered after it leaves the dealership, so there's no worry about voiding the warranty by repainting it.

posted 02-22-2010 09:27 PM ET (US)            

The miss happens intermittently and not under any specific set of circumstances. The engine is usually operating at or above 120 degrees, somewhere near 2200-3000 rpm. I noticed it occur last at 71 degree F ambient air, and 37 degree F fresh water. After about 30 minutes of running, it occurred for about 5 seconds, then did not do it again the rest of the day which was about another hour of run time.

posted 02-22-2010 09:48 PM ET (US)         

I'll get it down to *MY* Verado trained Merc mechanics in Ft Lauderdale, and they'll have it fixed under warranty in about a day. I'll spend about $20 for Mercury primer and touch-up paint and fix that problem myself.

posted 02-22-2010 10:13 PM ET (US)         

I have a pair of brand new Mers also, on another Whaler, with the exact same mids and gear cases yours has. I'll let you know if the paint peels off in 72 hours. So far, at 20 hours, no problem. But if it does, which I guess this is what I should now expect, I'll fix it myself, since that's the deal I made with Mercury when I bought the engine (no corrosion guarantee on paint). I won't try to nickel and dime them on the web.

posted 02-22-2010 10:19 PM ET (US)            

Once again..you and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the definition of words like "warranty" or "quality" or "dependable".

posted 02-22-2010 10:37 PM ET (US)         

Incidentally, your mechanic needs to go back to school. EFI 4-stroke overhead cam engines exist my the millions today, and fixing them is no big deal under the 5 year warranty. Sounds like a "black box" problem to me, easy to diagnose by someone who knows what they're doing.

posted 02-22-2010 10:38 PM ET (US)            

Of course, my 15-year-old OMC engine was long out of its warranty, so all repairs and component costs were on me. Your situation is quite different, with a new Mercury Marine engine still under warranty. It seems to me--and no I am not a certified Mercury mechanic and no I am not employed by Larry as "his" Mercury mechanic--as someone who has diagnosed and repaired a lot of things that run on electricity and have more than 5-volts inside them, that what ought to happen is for Mercury Marine to undertake the risk and expense and give you a new gizmo--I don't know what they call it in their FOURSTROKE engines these days--that controls the primary coil voltage to cylinder three. This is only fair, in my view. Its their engine that does not run properly, so they ought to take the risk (and cost burden) of installing the expensive replacement part to see if that is the problem.

Thanks for more details about the problem and the circumstances. I would say that it sounds like it is related to heat. In that regard, running the engine at idle ought to build up heat. But if the problem only manifests at higher engine speeds, you will never see it if you only run at idle, no matter how long.

ASIDE to Larry--I don't think there is anything unusual about this discussion. The Brunswick corporation makes the purchase of a Mercury Marine outboard motor a mandatory tie-in purchase with a Boston Whaler boat. Since the primary focus of these discussions are about Boston Whaler boats, it seems inevitable that there will be discussion about the Mercury motors that come with them. It would be unrealistic to think that everything ever said in these discussions would be completely and totally positive and enthusiastic about the mandatory tie-in sale of the Mercury Marine motor. Even if there were 99.9-percent satisfied customers, there will still be a couple of owners who are having a problem. I don't think it is fair to characterize the nature of this website as being some sort of exclusive hang-out for people trying to leverage Mercury Marine for a special deal. In this case, I really don't see that there is anything special being asked for, anyways. If a new motor has flaking paint and is corroding, and its running characteristics are poor, I don't see why the owner can't discuss the situation, especially when the remedy has been withheld for eight months.

posted 02-22-2010 11:05 PM ET (US)         

The boat was bought from this DEALERSHIP with the Mercury motor jammed down Joe's throat, and engine he says he didn't even want. They are the ones who have the contractual obligation to make good on this engine and boat hardware. They are the ones who need to take care of him, and evidently won't? Maybe BW should get rid of them?

My offer of $1000 for this old engine is still good. It would be a great deal for both of us.

Incidentally, who is this non-performing Dealership? Informed people may want to know, to stay away from them.

posted 02-23-2010 12:45 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

"The problem here is not Boston Whaler...."

---

I agree. Most of the complaint seems to center on the Mercury Marine outboard motor and problems with paint flaking, the resulting corrosion, poor engine running characteristics, and the general lack of response in providing a timely remedy. As I understand it, Joe spoke directly with the Mercury Marine customer service representative, and from them learned that there was no coverage for corrosion and paint flaking under the terms of the Mercury Marine corrosion warranty protection. Clearly this has nothing to do with the Boston Whaler boat. We all generally know or believe that problems like this that occur on a new Boston Whaler boat with the boat itself are typically remedied in an expedient manner by the Boston Whaler dealer with full support from the Boston Whaler factory.

posted 02-23-2010 05:16 PM ET (US)         

To make this guy happy, the dealer could certainly have had the paint touch up work done. Just good business, whether the guy is a nitpicker or otherwise. They should also get the engine running if they have the technical knowledge, and give Boston Whaler the bill. Then Boston Whaler can work it out with Mercury. The idea of letting a dealer skip out on his reponsibility for his sale, and hide behind the manufacturer, is a joke, but an often used tactic. I just had it pulled on me recently (an incident unrelated to BW or Mercury). I'd make a legal claim agsint the dealership for failure to honor promised warranties.

posted 02-24-2010 08:31 AM ET (US)            

There is corrosion and flaking paint on Joe's Mercury Marine outboard motor. Joe thinks this is abnormal, that is, it is not a result of normal wear and tear or what one would normally expect from a new motor with only a few months of use and only 71-hours of running time. In simple terms, there is a defect in the product. It is not properly painted to protect its metal components from corrosion. Joe sought a remedy for this defect. As noted, Joe bought this defective product from a retailer, so he sought a remedy from the retailer. The retailer apparently agreed with Joe: there was a defect in the product as it was manufactured. The retailer sought a remedy from the manufacturer. The manufacturer reviewed the corrosion and flaking paint on the motor and declared it was not a manufacturing defect that was covered by the warranty. The warranty sets out what conditions determine if a defect in manufacturing is to be covered by the warranty. Apparently the warranty on the Mercury Marine motor is written in such a way that it does not consider flaking paint and corrosion to constitute a manufacturing defect that is covered. The interpretation of the warranty was made by Mercury's customer service people. It was their call. They looked at this defect and decided it was not covered.

If I understand Larry's position, what should have happened was the retailer should have bailed out Mercury and repaired the defect at his expense, without any reimbursement from Mercury. I don't know if I agree with that. It might make sense in terms of keeping a customer happy. I am certain that Joe would be happy to get this defect repaired at no cost to Joe. But I don't think it is proper to suggest that this defect be repaired by the dealer at no cost to Mercury.

We have to look at who is responsible for the defect in the paint. Joe thinks the defect was in the original manufacture of the product. It was not properly painted. His means the remedy should come from the manufacturer. Could the defect have been caused by the dealer? Perhaps it could have. Perhaps the dealer's service people scratched the paint off this part of the engine by being careless. If that is the case, then the remedy should come from the dealer. But, as I understand it, the defect is not likely to have been caused by the dealer. The defect appears to be a defect in the original manufacture. Therefore the remedy ought to come from the manufacturer.

posted 02-24-2010 02:22 PM ET (US)         

The dealership is supposed to have a relationship with his customer, and is the vehicle throuogh which warranty service flows. The dealer has the ability and leverage to deal with his suppliers, not the customer.

This operation seems to have little interest in their customers, since it might cost them a DIME, and at the same time is incompetent at recovering from their suppiers, BW and Mercury. They also don't even have competent service people. Sounds like a bottom feeder operation to me. If they believe they are getting stiffed by their suppliers, they should find new companies to represent, like Grady/Yamaha. With the thousands of these L4NA engines out there, and other Merc Verados, etc, on new Whalers, this seems to be the only corrosion issue I've seen on ANY new Mercury.

I'd sue the the dealership in small claims court for breach of advertized warranty. The dealer can bring in Mercury and Boston Whaler if he thinks he's being wronged.

posted 02-24-2010 07:02 PM ET (US)            

For a savings of $4-5K I would probably buy from another dealer too. Maybe if saving $4-5K on a 170 Montauk, it was a demo boat or used?

"That said, I bought an '08 170 Mtk boat in Mo. and had it shipped 900 miles..and it was still cheaper than buying it from the dealer 2 miles down the street by roughly $4-5K."

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/016829.html

My Boston Whaler dealer has been great, they rebuilt/cleaned my carbureators in my 90 hp Mercaha twice. My dealer even got me a FREE upgrade to the 90 Veradito but I had to pay for installation. My dealer has treated me so good, that I tow my boat 90 miles to get it serviced there instead of 2-3 miles to an authorized Mercury shop.

posted 02-24-2010 08:39 PM ET (US)            

That is correct, the SELLING dealer is about 900 miles away. As stated, I saved about $4-5000 (even with shipping) buying the boat there. The dealer 2 miles away from me, however, is NOT the servicing dealer (they are part of the same dealership chain, however). The dealer 2 miles from me only SELLS whalers. I'm not sure WHY that should matter though. The servicing dealer is familiar with the engine and the boat (as previously having been PAID to do maintenance on it), and has been turned down by Mercury for reimbursement for the paint. Mercury turned down my appeal to cover the paint as well. I'm not sure how purchasing the boat locally (and subsequently paying $4-5K more) would have made any difference to Mercury's decision to NOT fix the engine under warranty.Does that somehow void my warranty?

Just as an FY, the Northstar Explorer Smartcraft monitor I installed on the boat registered about 1.5 hours on the engine when I installed it. And that installation took place AFTER I had taken it out the first time for a time period that I did not monitor. If it were a "demo" and I wasn't told (and it certainly didn't appear to be one) it wasn't a "demo" for more than about 15 minutes. Again, even if it were a demo (and it wasn't) does that somehow void my warranty in a way I am not aware? Mercury did not inform me of that when they sold me 2 additional years of warranty coverage.

I have always wondered about this "selling" vs "servicing" thought. I have never found ANY dealer that wouldn't take my money. I also have never found an authorized dealer that wouldn't perform warranty work--on ANY brand boat or engine they sold. That would be counter productive, wouldn't it? What would have happened if I purchased the boat HERE, and moved 900 miles away? Should I be expected to pull the boat 900 miles BACK to have warranty work performed? Of course not.

posted 02-25-2010 09:53 AM ET (US)            

I cannot understand L H G's logic in which the dealer is supposed to stand behind the product even when the manufacturer doesn't. Yes, I understand writing off the repair as goodwill to the customer, but that is an option. There is nothing in the sales agreement or the warranty that binds the dealer to pick up the slack when the manufacturer drops the ball. I am not sure we can bash the dealer for his failure to give the customer a freebie for goodwill, while at the same time make an argument that the manufacturer should be held harmless. The manufacturer put his coverage in writing--the warranty.

posted 02-25-2010 10:31 AM ET (US)            

This is simple guys. IF there is a manufacturing defect, and IF the warranty covers such manufacturing defects, THEN the defect is covered.

Despite assertions by the owner, with obvious vested interest in the outcome, and Jim who hasn't seen the engine but also seems to have a vested interest in the outcome, I don't think its clear that paint bubbling over engine corrosion IS, in fact, a manufacturing defect.

Who really knows what happened to the engine? A piece of gravel bouncing off the highway could have breached the protection and given corrosion a foothold. Not that I'm suggesting Joe does this, but should Mercury also be responsible for paint finishes on motors that are regularly trailered on course gravel roadbeds?

Furthermore, as Larry stated, the dealer/servicer is THE conduit between the customer and the manufacturer. I can assure you that if the dealer wanted this problem to be covered by warranty, and the request was reasonable, it would have happened. If you don't have that minimal amount of faith in the dealer's ability to advocate for your benefit and on your behalf, you shouldn't patronize them.

posted 02-25-2010 06:24 PM ET (US)            

And, naturally, a customer who bought an expensive product--and here I would say a new Boston Whaler 170 MONTAUK rig qualifies as expensive product--from a dealership will be much more likely to get consideration for preferred treatment than someone who comes in from the cold with a problem.

In Joe's situation he is now working through a dealership from whom he did not purchase the product. This makes him less likely to qualify with the dealer for special treatment. And, again, this is why I can't understand why the dealer has his feet held to the fire in this discussion by the critics (like L H G) who say this is a dealer-caused problem. I do not think it is reasonable to expect the dealer, who may be well aware of having lost this sale to a competitor, to step up and offer preferential treatment to Joe and solve his problem at dealer expense.

None of us have seen the problem, so no one of us is more qualified to determine if the problem is truly a defect. I have been going on Joe's assessment. He says he has a motor with a two manufacturing defects. (They're the poor paint and the intermittent spark.) At issue so far in the discussion, from what I have read, is not if these are defects--that's been assumed. At issue is who should provide the remedy for the defects. If it is desired to have a discussion about whether or not poor paint is a manufacturing defect or if intermittent spark failure is a manufacturing defect, we ought to start a new discussion. I tend to agree with Joe, however, and I don't think the paint ought to be failing on a motor within a year of ownership, nor do I think failing electrical components are normal in the first year of ownership. In the discussion so far I have been asked to assume the role of the dealer and explain my business model. I have done that. Now I will assume the role of Joe and explain my expectations. They're simple. I don't expect the paint to be failing on the motor, and I don't expect the motor ignition system to be failing. These are not particularly outlandish requirements.

If you review the comments from Brunswick corporation's highest level of management, their CEO, you will find that a long standing theme has been to increase customer satisfaction with the marine products. When George Buckley was CEO of Brunswick he spent a lot of time explaining (with elaborate charts and graphs) to investors and stock brokers how Brunswick's strategy was to build vertically integrated products (like this boat where Brunswick assembles the boat, the motor, the trailer, and even the electronics and other accessories into a package). By moving the integration of all these products to the factory, Brunswick said it was going to increase customer satisfaction by reducing product defects. Brunswick was going to provide a single source for delivering the boating experience to the customer, and with reduced defects the customer was going to become more satisfied. And more satisfied customers were going to become repeat customers.

Now those presentations from senior management were some great presentations, but here we are with a real customer who is not very satisfied in a real world way. This is exactly the situation that Brunswick senior management said it was going to prevent as a result of building and integrating multiple products into their boats. The customer would have a single source for a remedy if there was a problem: Brunswick. How can we fit Joe's experience into this business model for Brunswick? The simplest of problems--recall that L H G says he can remedy this with $10 of paint and labor--and our customer gets the run-around from the dealer, from Mercury Marine, and from fellow boaters!

posted 02-25-2010 08:01 PM ET (US)         

Considering the lack of disclosure, causing many of us to waste our time, I'm not buying the defect complaints either.

posted 02-25-2010 08:55 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Joe did not tell us he had the boat shipped in from 900 miles at a huge discount, and the local dealer he was using did not sell the rig. That changes everything.

---

lol..I guess it's a good thing I didn't buy the boat used. I guess the warranty would really be worthless.

posted 02-25-2010 09:06 PM ET (US)         

Anecdotally, I received the same treatment when I took my jeep in for warranty service at the local dealer. I had just moved from across town, and the local dealership was not the selling dealership.

I also have had the pleasure of being on the opposite end of this debate when a neighbor in my old neighborhood engaged another builder to build his home at a cheaper price. It did not take long for the other builder to discover what I had learned building other houses in the area, and the house construction began to labor. The soon-to-be neighbor began soliciting my opinion and recommendations on problems surrounding the project. I asked if he wanted to hire me as a consultant to which he responded no, he just thought I might help him out a bit. I explained I did not work for free and unfortunately could not help him. He later has someone else finish the house...a year and a half later.

posted 02-25-2010 09:30 PM ET (US)            

When I need warranty service, it will be best to take the boat back 900 miles to the original selling dealer, as they are the only dealer with a vested interest in fixing the engine...or at least, coercing Mercury stand up to there warranty. I'll assume this would also be the same for a used boat that I might purchase that has remaining warranty. Does this make the warranty void?

This does not, of course, include something that I would actually pay for, like regular maintenance, which they'll gladly do. The servicing dealer knows I'll never buy another boat, so not performing warranty work is a waste of their time and not conducive in me ever buying another boat.

posted 02-25-2010 10:06 PM ET (US)         

However, my greater point is that if you had purchased the boat from the dealer, you may very well have had the boat fixed at no cost to you from the dealer whether Mercury honored the warranty claim or not. Your local dealer may very well spend hours upon hours trying to recreating a intermittant engine sputter and providing a solution. I would be willing to bet if the dealer ended up spending 15 hours spread over several repeat visits by you they will loose money on that transaction. Mercury likely offers some flat rate of reimbursement for the fix leaving the dealer to sort out the additional time they spent.

posted 02-25-2010 10:25 PM ET (US)            

IMO, the dealer has not been the problem with getting the engine repaired. My contract isn't with them or the selling dealer, of which they are representative acting on their behalf. Mercury is calling the shots here..not them.

posted 02-25-2010 10:39 PM ET (US)            

You have over 71hrs on your motor in just a year and a half so it is not like you have not had time to enjoy the boat. Has it ever left you dead in the water?

posted 02-25-2010 11:12 PM ET (US)         

quote:

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if the dealer ended up spending 15 hours spread over several repeat visits by you they will loose money on that transaction.

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It would not be uncommon for this type of time to be invested into diagnosing a mysterious, intermittent problem. If I may again speak anecdotally.

posted 02-25-2010 11:26 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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"I enjoy noting Jim's search engine optimization techniques of repeatedly linking Mercury and Defect [sic] in an almost redundant manner."

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I am not sure how I could otherwise refer to the manufacturer than by the brand name. I do not capitalize "defect", nor does capitalization make sense. I don't know what other term would be more appropriate for a defect in the product. I eschew use of "issue" to mean defect.

In terms of search results, I am afraid this thread barely shows up in the results for a search on the terms Mercury and defect. It comes in at about 90th in the 117 articles that contain those terms:

http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/sw.pl?Search=mercury+defect

posted 03-02-2010 07:14 PM ET (US)            

Back to the original subject..a representative from Whaler contacted me after seeing my original post above. After discussing it with him, he could offer no more than having my dealer repaint the area of my engine the paint is peeling off and possibly have the dealer bill Whaler instead of Mercury. Since Mercury has turned the claim down, there was nothing Whaler can officially do. It was a nice offer, but I turned it down. To be honest, I'd rather attempt to paint my engine myself. It may not look like a factory paint job when I am done, but I know I won't get paint over spray all over my engine and boat.

posted 03-03-2010 09:23 AM ET (US)            

I've figured out why Larry wants to buy your motor from you. You see, it was delivered to you by mistake.

This is a "Project Y" motor. Back in the day, Mercury Marine was working with the Yale department of Psychology in New Haven, recruiting students for special study. This top secret program resulted in certain people having "Blind Loyalty" in their motors. The program was so successful that the NSA shut them down and folded the operations of this special unit into their efforts to make the Russians love the United States.

As with most government programs, it failed miserably, but the few student-loyalists remained - and of course, they needed their Mercury motors! Mercury, being the upstanding corporate citizen that it is, has been providing motors to these loyalists. Because of their blindness, however, a special system has been developed to secretly communicate with them. Braille messages appearing in the finish of the outboard. How you received one of these motors with the raised braille motors is unknown (Looks a LOT like paint bubbling, doesn't it - they fooled you!).

Of course, when you contacted Mercury about such a "defect" they denied all knowledge.

You'd better invest in a good metal colander, my friend. They'll be looking for you.

posted 03-05-2010 09:45 AM ET (US)            

The person I spoke to could not immediately provide a part number of the primer, but said that it requires a primer that has a catalyst mixed with it, and that the surface should be sanded down to the metal, then painted with a gloss coat. I commented that it sounds like it needs to be done professionally, as I don't have the necessary mixing facilities, air compressor or paint gun required to mix a catalyst and primer to paint a "cosmetic corrosion issue.I then asked if this could not be done with a spray can primer, and touch up paint, and she said that she could not confirm that, but she did say that it should be painted "just like I would a car".

Perhaps my line of thinking is way off base here..but for an engine that only has "normal cosmetic corrosion", should I have to have a paint shop professionally repair this? My point is that obviously, this is far beyond "normal cosmetic corrosion" if it requires this scale of repair.

posted 03-05-2010 05:10 PM ET (US)            

The previous owner (and longtime Mercury owner) of my 170 Montauk / 90 HP Mercury had been plagued by problems with the then brand new carbed version of this motor.

His stalling issues continued for a little over two years.
Then it all ended.
Mercury sent him a BRAND NEW EFI version motor at NO CHARGE including the swap.

He was relentless with phone calls to Mercury and Whaler.
He remained calm and collected throughout the whole ordeal.
He just kept asking to escalate his problem to a higher ranking manager.

Bottom line is that Joe spent a sizable amount of money on his purchase and between the SELLING dealer and the TWO manufacturers, they need to make it right.
Stay calm and persistent.
Companies understand that in these times brand loyality is crucial for survival.

Remember, the selling dealer does share some culpability since he sold you the potential defective product.
I'm afraid the servicing dealer has little motivation to make the customer happy since he did not get any margin from the sale and therefore is not happy to spend the $200 to remedy the situation.
But you may have no choice than return to the selling dealer for a fix.
If you find no joy, then perhaps a Small Claims Court summons may get things moving.

As far as brands, things can go wrong with ANY mechanical item so don't get too happy with your purchases.

PS- I love my Whaler and Mercury.

posted 03-05-2010 06:27 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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I hope other boat dealers, other boat manufacturers, and other engine manufacturers have been reading this thread and are continuously reminding themselves never to sell this guy anything, at any price. When Boston Whaler and Mercury Marine have a customer from Hell like this, who needs enemies.

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"Customer from hell"--because I'd prefer the engine break at least 100 hours before beginning to self destruct?

And I thought you said you weren't going to post any more about this?

posted 03-05-2010 06:35 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Companies understand that in these times brand loyality is crucial for survival.

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I don't believe that. They, and the employee at Whaler who contacted me, are aware that the continuing "miss" and the paint peeling off are end-it-all, deal breakers for me. Mercury at least, doesn't care.

quote:

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Remember, the selling dealer does share some culpability since he sold you the potential defective product.

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They, like the servicing dealer, would be dealing directly with Mercury for reimbursement. I don't think Mercury cares anymore what they or the servicing dealer say, any more than they care what I say.

quote:

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I'm afraid the servicing dealer has little motivation to make the customer happy since he did not get any margin from the sale and therefore is not happy to spend the $200 to remedy the situation.

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The servicing dealer has the motivation to honor Mercury's warranty--which is what they have attempted to do. As I have said before...Mercury Marine is the hold up here.

quote:

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But you may have no choice than return to the selling dealer for a fix.

---

posted 03-05-2010 09:13 PM ET (US)            

Is this on or off topic? Think my comments concerning the corrosion/paint issue will wait until you show use some before and after photos.

Far as the painting is concerned I have a couple of recommendations that may get you close to what you want want.
Primer is most important. For primer get a two part epoxy zinc chromate primer and apply several thin coats. It won't kill you to use Preval spray bottles or you can brush which may require a bit more be wet sanding between coats. If sprayed at least use a dust mask in a well ventilated area. I've done a lot of it both ways on aluminum boat bottoms.
For the finish either use Merc's aerosol or for possible better looking/longer lasting get the real paint and use Preval. A bit of wet sanding and polishing will get you a professional result on a small area as you have.
You will be doing what a dealer should be doing but with attention to detail and probably look better than what they'd do even if being reimbursed by Merc. You should be able to do all the primer and finish coats in an few hours. Let the finish coat set up as long as recommended, then do the wet sand and polish won't take much time at all.

posted 03-07-2010 01:32 AM ET (US)            

Port exhaust stack:

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/DSCN0241.JPG

Front of exhaust stack:
http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/DSCN0248.JPG

Steering arm:
http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/DSCN0245.JPG

This is what I started with. The paint started to come off the last time I went out for about an hour (in fresh water), about 2 weeks ago:

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint1.jpg

Here is what the front looked like:

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint2.jpg

It was at this point I realized that to properly to remove all of the corrosion, I'd have to drop the lower unit to paint between the halves. Here is some corrosion I found on one of the studs:

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint3.jpg

This is inside of the exhaust stack in the front. You can see the paint wasn't adhering to the metal at all:
http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint4.jpg

After trying to sand the port side area, I noticed that it wouldn't feather through to primer; it was just not adhered to the metal at all and there was no primer either. AS the paint was "moving" while sanding it it, I found it was easier to take a razor blade and get up under the paint until it finally got to a place that the paint was actually bonded to the metal. I used a only a razor blade to remove most of the paint on the port side of the exhaust stack, and it wasn't difficult to do. It came off in large pieces and went down to the metal without any scraping. The last time it froze here, the ice on my windshield was harder to remove than this paint! I feel sure that eventually, all of the paint I scraped of would fallen off. I caught it at just about the right time I guess. I'd say this is more than "cosmetic corrosion"- this a complete failure of the paint to adhere to the metal. There didn't appear to be any primer applied in this area.

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint6.jpg

Here are some of the pieces of paint that basically flaked off. You can tell the size of them compared to the small pen screwdriver and tie wrap-they came off in pretty big srips.

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/floor.jpg

Here is what the steering arm looked like when I took off the attachment. Remember, this is what Mercury calls "cosmetic corrosion".

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint7.jpg

Here is what it looked like after I sanded it a bit with some 150 grit paper. Again, not much of the paint was actually adhered to the metal. All of the paint on the front peeled off, just like on the exhaust stack. It had been rusting for a while. At least I did sand into some primer on the top of the steering arm.

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/paint8.jpg

I noticed a paper inspection sticker (I guess) that Mercury had put on the lower unit from when it was new. Apparently, the paper has stuck to the engine better than the paint has.

http://home.comcast.net/~joefiat/whaler/sticker.jpg

After sanding the affected areas, I primed it with 2 coats of Evinrude zinc chromate primer, and then applied 2 coats of Mercury Shadow Black spray paint to the entire visible area. After that, I applied 2 coats of dupli- color acrylic enamel clear. It actually turned out pretty good, but I don't know how long it will stick. I am more concerned at this point of even more paint on the engine "falling off".

posted 03-07-2010 09:34 AM ET (US)            

I was browsing on the Mercury Marine website and I noticed this somewhat ironic image being used as an in-line graphic on their web page about Warranty and Service.

posted 03-07-2010 10:12 AM ET (US)            

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/pdfs/serviceandwarranty/maintenance/ MaintenanceInformation-75to115FS.pdf

Then I scanned the document looking for the word "paint." The only mention of paint was in regarding to not painting over the corrosion protection anodes.

Joe--What does the owner's manual for your motor say about the owner's obligation to repaint areas of the motor where the paint has been lost?

posted 03-07-2010 06:49 PM ET (US)            

As to what it says about paint--it mentions not painting the anodes and some verbage about anti fouling paint, but the only thing it says about my responsibility to painting is in the "Storage" section of the owners manual, it says:

Protecting External Outboard Components
• Touch up any paint nicks. See your dealer for touch‑up paint.

Apparently, the paint is not warranted. The only warranty I have for paint or corrosion is that:

3 Year Limited Warranty Against Corrosion
WHAT IS COVERED: Mercury Marine warrants that each new
Mercury, Mariner, Mercury Racing, Sport Jet, M2 Jet Drive, Tracker by Mercury Marine Outboard, Mercury MerCruiser Inboard or Sterndrive Engine (Product) will not be rendered as a direct result of corrosion for the period of time described below.

posted 03-07-2010 06:57 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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I'de be rattled if that was my new boat. I does look like something in their paint system failed and like any system, it happens. Did you see any signs of primer on the lower unit?

---

While sanding the exhaust stack, I did not see any traces of primer. Where I could feather the existing paint is where the existing paint was still adhered to the metal. I did see primer on the steering arm attachment.

quote:

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Was it possible the primer was black?

---

The second level of paint that I was able to see while sanding the steering arm attachment point shown through as grey. I am assuming this level of paint was primer.

quote:

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To late now, but while everything was disassembled, treating the raw aluminum with the right liquid metal prep them the best zinc chromate primer available (not a spray can) then anything you want over that.

---

I treated it to the best spray primer I could get, which as I see it, is better than what was there which was nothing.

quote:

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I think Boston Whaler is making a mistake by letting this turn you into a customer from hell.

My 2007 Mercury 115 lives in the saltwater full time and has no [paint flaking or corrosion] like that.

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I don't think Boston Whaler nor Mercury really cares--They already got my money. They won't ever get any more of it.

posted 03-07-2010 09:28 PM ET (US)            

Your version of the warranty left out the word operative. It's similar to the perforation clause in auto warranties. Apparently all the paint can come off the lower unit and it's still considered cosmetic.
I do agree your instance of corrosion shouldn't happen and doesn't seem to be the norm. If cases like your are rare Merc would be wise to better accommodate their costumers at little cost to them.

quote:

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3 Year Limited Warranty Against Corrosion
WHAT IS COVERED: Mercury Marine warrants that each new
Mercury, Mariner, Mercury Racing, Sport Jet, M2 Jet Drive, Tracker by Mercury Marine Outboard, Mercury MerCruiser Inboard or Sterndrive Engine (Product) will not be rendered inoperative as a direct result of corrosion for the period of time described below.

---

posted 03-07-2010 10:15 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Your version of the warranty left out the word operative. It's similar to the perforation clause in auto warranties. Apparently all the paint can come off the lower unit and it's still considered cosmetic.
I do agree your instance of corrosion shouldn't happen and doesn't seem to be the norm. If cases like your are rare Merc would be wise to better accommodate their costumers at little cost to them.

---

I actually inadvertently left out the word inoperative. Not sure what happened to my copy and paste.

posted 03-23-2010 03:32 PM ET (US)            

Please refer to Joe's post above where he fixed it HIMSELF. He posted pretty interesting photos of the legendary quality of Mercury's paint you keep talking about.

Don't get me wrong - I know they have quality paint. But someone in Wisconsin was definitely asleep at the paint booth on the day Joe's motor was made. Mercury really should apologize for the treatment they gave him when it was just visually proven that they didn't prime the motor at all.

Of course, they're not going to, but they should.

I find it hard to believe that such an oversight occurred at an otherwise excellent production facility. Perhaps the union members weren't happy with the contract negotiations or Mercury's threat to take their jobs to Oklahoma that day? Who knows?

posted 03-23-2010 03:37 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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I assume Boston Whaler and the local Mercury dealership has this engine running flawlessly again, and cosmetically perfect?

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You assume completely incorrect.

Mercury collectively threw their hands up in the air and finally said the paint wasn't covered. Read the warranty, for what it is, carefully. Unless a part fails due to corrosion, it's considered "cosmetic" corrosion only, and not covered under warranty.

As I have stated before, I'm surprised Mercury hasn't completely dropped painting their engines, just for the cost savings alone. I would imagine they could cover it in cosmoline and have it last for 3 years, even in a salt water environment, and still "honor"(lol) their warranty.