Thailand bashing, and other mistakes of a similar nature

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Author Topic:   Thailand bashing, and other mistakes of a similar nature

elaelap posted 08-14-2010 12:59 PM ET (US)
A comment in a thread running concurrently brought these thoughts to mind:
Guess what, guys -- Thailand's manufacturing capabilities, especially when you consider that the many of their newly constructed plants are designed from the ground up and employ the latest high tech developments, are at least as good as much of our ageing industrial capacity. Ditto Singapore/Malaysia, Mexico, and China. In fact, watch out for the latter nation, which I predict will out-Japan 1960-1980 Japan over the next decade when it comes to high tech, green automobiles and maybe even (to keep it relevant to this website) marine engine technology.
Needing a trolling and git-home motor for my recently acquired classic Montauk, this past Christmas I bought, without hesitation, a Suzuki 6 hp four stroke kicker made in Thailand, and so far it's performed flawlessly, starting up on the first or second pull and chugging right along while barely sipping fuel. My suggestion to many of you: don't be automatically put off by newly developing nations' products because of lingering Euro-centric prejudices. It's a new world, and has been for the past forty or fifty years, as initial sneers about Japanese manufacturing capabilities turned to envy. Much better a tight tolerance product machined via the newest computer technology in a brand new plant, IMO, than a rattley old product made in an ageing plant with unimaginative design technology...no matter the nation where the product is produced.
Tony
Kanawha1 posted 08-14-2010 01:59 PM ET (US)
I've always been impressed with third-world manufacturing capabilities, particularly their ability to train minors and slaves to manufacture such high quality products.
SJUAE posted 08-14-2010 02:02 PM ET (US)
Elaelap
Thanks for the heads up I have just bought a house in Thailand so when I ship my whaler there eventually, I can swap my ETEC for a local made Suzuki
Regards
Steve
pcrussell50 posted 08-14-2010 02:20 PM ET (US)
How did you buy a house there? Did you marry a Thai woman or did they change their laws about letting foreigners buy property?
-Peter
elaelap posted 08-14-2010 02:25 PM ET (US)
Kanawha makes an interesting observation, though I'm not sure he isn't just flaming my post or parroting some misinformed, chauvinistic line. I'd like him to cite his sources and provide facts, rather than knee-jerk opinions, demonstrating that Suzuki uses "minors and slaves" to produce their outboard motors in Thailand.
See, that's exactly the problem. I visited "third world" Thailand two years ago, and while there's no doubt that many Thais --especially those residing in rural areas-- live in poverty compared with folks in Japan, the USA and Europe, Thailand is a bustling, modernizing nation which is producing a number of highly educated engineers, skilled machinists, and a hip, entrepreneurial class. Don't automatically buy into some of the prejudices you may hear about so-called "third world" nations until you've delved beneath the surface a little for yourself.
And let's see some facts to support your claim, Kanawha. If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres.
Tony
Mambo Minnow posted 08-14-2010 02:52 PM ET (US)
Having spent all of 2008 sailing around SE Asia, I would echo tony's thesis. Singapore is rich, highly educated if a bit authoritarian. My one caveat is they can assemble And manufacture but their govt and culture an not match America's creativity and independent thought. Apple designs the iPhone I am typing tie on in Cupertino CA and assembles in China.
pcrussell50 posted 08-14-2010 03:16 PM ET (US)

quote:
If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres.
Tony
Of course, in these matters, you will find that one man's (or country's) definition of "minors and slaves", differs substantially from another's. No doubt the factory that built your motor meets Thailand's standards. But would it pass muster with OSHA, western child labor laws, and western labor union standards? In your heart of hearts what do you think? And are you still OK with it if it doesn't?

-Peter
jimh posted 08-14-2010 03:16 PM ET (US)
Here is a sample of modern manufacturing in China. I don't know exactly what they're making. Perhaps parts for a four-cycle engine that will end up under a Mercury cowling?
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/movies/Presswerk_China.wmv
SJUAE posted 08-14-2010 03:34 PM ET (US)
Pete
No I did not marry a Thai my English wife would not let me :)
You can buy property but only lease the land up to 30 years renewable 2 times with rights to sell and for succession.
So better than previously and almost indefinite with provisions for changes in law both good ie more years or ownership or bad ie Thai owner must buy you out at current / prevailing market rate
Not bullet proof but in 30-90 years max I will be dead and the house worthless, so my kids can have it
Buying there or most holiday type places is not really a finical investment more of a lifestyle option IMO
Given how strong the Asian economies are and will be with trade surpluses getting your money there is the hardest part
I,m still waiting for an Indian outboard development though LOL
Maybe Tata will buyout Mercury
Regards
Steve
elenakagan posted 08-14-2010 03:56 PM ET (US)

quote:
If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres.
Tony
I would have bet those proceeds would go to the Sea Shepards a more fitting donation.
Kanawha1 posted 08-14-2010 04:43 PM ET (US)
There might not be many minors and slaves building these items any more but there's only one (or two or three...) reason they can do it cheaper than us, CHEAP labor. I don't need to site any media stories, outlets, whatever to understand basic economics, CHEAP labor and lack of freedom in their markets and economy.
Mambo Minnow posted 08-14-2010 05:42 PM ET (US)
Pardon my typos on the PDA....I have fat thumbs! The younger generation can text on QWERTY keyboards with reckless abandon.
These nations have relatively cheap labor, but countries such as Singapore and China are investing in educational systems to produce the high tech jobs. China is rapidly expanding it's university system as well.
India and China have adopted market capitalism and developing a robust middle class that can afford luxury goods. Their nation's leaders realize the next step is to move from manufacturing using cheap labor to being the folks that invent and engineer the goods they are producing. They are not their yet, but Americans better understand it's a global economy and competition is now global. The Japanese are learning this just like Americans as China, Malaysia, Singapore and Korea take business from them as well.
Suggested reading: "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.
elaelap posted 08-14-2010 08:17 PM ET (US)
I'm sorry to see my topic turn into a discussion, albeit interesting and important, about socio/economic systems. Some of you who know my thoughts about these matters realize that if I began my usual left wing rap re these topics this thread would soon devolve into a hopeless, toxic mess of insult and personal attack.
I began this thread because of a comment on another CW forum where the commentator seemed to assert that just because an outboard motor was made in Thailand, it was automatically of lesser quality. I think it's a mistake to make such assumptions about products from "emerging", "developing" nations, precisely for the reason I stated above: more often than not, especially when we're talking about the production of big ticket items like cars and yes, outboard motors, countries thus far unburdened by ageing production methods and unimaginative industrial models from the past are at a distinct advantage; i.e., their industrial facilities, because of their relative youth, are more advanced technologically than those of the developed nations, which are hampered by ageing, often static custom and design modalities. And it's not just the plants and equipment. I'm convinced that innovation and creativity is often healthier in vital, emerging economies as opposed to the older systems. We've seen it all here over the past three or four decades with the U.S. auto industry, much too plodding to get out of its own way, as the rest of the world, particularly Japan and Korea, have zoomed ahead in this area. Again, it's not politics or systems of government I'm talking about here, but of new versus old production methods and ways of thinking about industrial development.
Anyway, while it greatly saddens me to see the loss of industrial strength and creativity in this country, that sad fact doesn't mean that I'll automatically discount and disparage successes in this area abroad, especially in developing economies. It's just the way of the world during this globalized historical period, and it's foolish, IMO, to pretend that it's otherwise. As many others have opined, the 21st century might well turn out to be an Asian-dominated era, at least as far as industry and innovation are concerned.
Tony
contender posted 08-14-2010 08:36 PM ET (US)
Elaelap: Two very different worlds and you do not compare apples to apples, and like Pete stated they do not have to worry about laws and stupid law suits, if a worker does not work he is fired and some one else is ready to take his place on the 12 hour shift. They do not have the government wasting trillions of dollars on health care, cause there is none. Ask them how their pensions are or their Social Security and how much they make? Another problem that has always had me perplex is why the import taxes on foreign items are so cheap but when we send something to the same country the tax is sometimes over 50%. You wonder why our companies send things overseas...So keep bashing our companies here and demand more taxes from them...
Sjuae: The only problem with purchasing a house/property in Thailand is that its only about a 14 hour flight to get there, and I do not care what paper you have(remember you are in a 3rd world foreign country) the government will/can take your property any time they want. Same thing happen to US Families in Mexico they lost everything. So unless you have more money than you know what to do with it or you are just paying the right people I guess it does not matter...Good luck to you, to each his own
Sheila posted 08-14-2010 11:32 PM ET (US)
http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand
Some interesting details are available here.
David Pendleton posted 08-14-2010 11:46 PM ET (US)

quote:
I'm sorry to see my topic turn into a discussion, albeit interesting and important, about socio/economic systems. Some of you who know my thoughts about these matters realize that if I began my usual left wing rap re these topics this thread would soon devolve into a hopeless, toxic mess of insult and personal attack.
Tony, I've a tip for you; don't bring it up to begin with.
You're not going to change any minds here. Not one. And no one is going to change your mind.
It's a pointless exercise.
Personally, I don't care what you think or believe. Just stop posting it here.
You'll find legions of fellow travellers on the Daily KOS or Democratic Underground. Why not let them experience the wonderfulness that is Tony for themselves?
elaelap posted 08-15-2010 08:44 AM ET (US)
I see, David. Another long-time member of this forum and frequent, opinionated commentator can post a comment attacking some Suzuki outboards simply because they are made in Thailand, but I can't respond in a hopefully thoughtful manner. Why? Because it rattles your limited world view. I wonder why some of you here are so frightened of ideas that challenge your insular belief system. Our poor, wonderful, screwed-up world is, as it's always been, in a process of change. I pity those who can't enjoy the ride.
Tony
SJUAE posted 08-15-2010 08:46 AM ET (US)
Contender
I think you have more chance losing your house due to your employer outsourcing to Thailand/Asia, but that's another story.
The average expats 2000sqft house in Thailand costs less than a new 20ft whaler, but it won't float as well :)
Regards
Steve
David Pendleton posted 08-15-2010 09:50 AM ET (US)
Tony, my world view is limited to telling you to STFU.
Suzuki and Thailand and the Far East in general will be just fine without you.
Your narcissim knows no bounds.
jimh posted 08-15-2010 10:04 AM ET (US)
OK--Enough. Thread closed.
One interesting observation: The phrase "fellow travelers" was a code phrase used by the Soviet Union for Americans who were secret Soviet agents.

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Author	Topic: Thailand bashing, and other mistakes of a similar nature
elaelap	posted 08-14-2010 12:59 PM ET (US) A comment in a thread running concurrently brought these thoughts to mind: Guess what, guys -- Thailand's manufacturing capabilities, especially when you consider that the many of their newly constructed plants are designed from the ground up and employ the latest high tech developments, are at least as good as much of our ageing industrial capacity. Ditto Singapore/Malaysia, Mexico, and China. In fact, watch out for the latter nation, which I predict will out-Japan 1960-1980 Japan over the next decade when it comes to high tech, green automobiles and maybe even (to keep it relevant to this website) marine engine technology. Needing a trolling and git-home motor for my recently acquired classic Montauk, this past Christmas I bought, without hesitation, a Suzuki 6 hp four stroke kicker made in Thailand, and so far it's performed flawlessly, starting up on the first or second pull and chugging right along while barely sipping fuel. My suggestion to many of you: don't be automatically put off by newly developing nations' products because of lingering Euro-centric prejudices. It's a new world, and has been for the past forty or fifty years, as initial sneers about Japanese manufacturing capabilities turned to envy. Much better a tight tolerance product machined via the newest computer technology in a brand new plant, IMO, than a rattley old product made in an ageing plant with unimaginative design technology...no matter the nation where the product is produced. Tony
Kanawha1	posted 08-14-2010 01:59 PM ET (US) I've always been impressed with third-world manufacturing capabilities, particularly their ability to train minors and slaves to manufacture such high quality products.
SJUAE	posted 08-14-2010 02:02 PM ET (US) Elaelap Thanks for the heads up I have just bought a house in Thailand so when I ship my whaler there eventually, I can swap my ETEC for a local made Suzuki Regards Steve
pcrussell50	posted 08-14-2010 02:20 PM ET (US) How did you buy a house there? Did you marry a Thai woman or did they change their laws about letting foreigners buy property? -Peter
elaelap	posted 08-14-2010 02:25 PM ET (US) Kanawha makes an interesting observation, though I'm not sure he isn't just flaming my post or parroting some misinformed, chauvinistic line. I'd like him to cite his sources and provide facts, rather than knee-jerk opinions, demonstrating that Suzuki uses "minors and slaves" to produce their outboard motors in Thailand. See, that's exactly the problem. I visited "third world" Thailand two years ago, and while there's no doubt that many Thais --especially those residing in rural areas-- live in poverty compared with folks in Japan, the USA and Europe, Thailand is a bustling, modernizing nation which is producing a number of highly educated engineers, skilled machinists, and a hip, entrepreneurial class. Don't automatically buy into some of the prejudices you may hear about so-called "third world" nations until you've delved beneath the surface a little for yourself. And let's see some facts to support your claim, Kanawha. If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres. Tony
Mambo Minnow	posted 08-14-2010 02:52 PM ET (US) Having spent all of 2008 sailing around SE Asia, I would echo tony's thesis. Singapore is rich, highly educated if a bit authoritarian. My one caveat is they can assemble And manufacture but their govt and culture an not match America's creativity and independent thought. Apple designs the iPhone I am typing tie on in Cupertino CA and assembles in China.
pcrussell50	posted 08-14-2010 03:16 PM ET (US) quote: If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres. Tony Of course, in these matters, you will find that one man's (or country's) definition of "minors and slaves", differs substantially from another's. No doubt the factory that built your motor meets Thailand's standards. But would it pass muster with OSHA, western child labor laws, and western labor union standards? In your heart of hearts what do you think? And are you still OK with it if it doesn't? -Peter
jimh	posted 08-14-2010 03:16 PM ET (US) Here is a sample of modern manufacturing in China. I don't know exactly what they're making. Perhaps parts for a four-cycle engine that will end up under a Mercury cowling? http://continuouswave.com/whaler/movies/Presswerk_China.wmv
SJUAE	posted 08-14-2010 03:34 PM ET (US) Pete No I did not marry a Thai my English wife would not let me :) You can buy property but only lease the land up to 30 years renewable 2 times with rights to sell and for succession. So better than previously and almost indefinite with provisions for changes in law both good ie more years or ownership or bad ie Thai owner must buy you out at current / prevailing market rate Not bullet proof but in 30-90 years max I will be dead and the house worthless, so my kids can have it Buying there or most holiday type places is not really a finical investment more of a lifestyle option IMO Given how strong the Asian economies are and will be with trade surpluses getting your money there is the hardest part I,m still waiting for an Indian outboard development though LOL Maybe Tata will buyout Mercury Regards Steve
elenakagan	posted 08-14-2010 03:56 PM ET (US) quote: If you can prove to me that my little kicker was built by "minors and slaves", you'll see it for sale on craigslist the next day, with the proceeds going to a non-profit like Medecins sans Frontieres. Tony I would have bet those proceeds would go to the Sea Shepards a more fitting donation.
Kanawha1	posted 08-14-2010 04:43 PM ET (US) There might not be many minors and slaves building these items any more but there's only one (or two or three...) reason they can do it cheaper than us, CHEAP labor. I don't need to site any media stories, outlets, whatever to understand basic economics, CHEAP labor and lack of freedom in their markets and economy.
Mambo Minnow	posted 08-14-2010 05:42 PM ET (US) Pardon my typos on the PDA....I have fat thumbs! The younger generation can text on QWERTY keyboards with reckless abandon. These nations have relatively cheap labor, but countries such as Singapore and China are investing in educational systems to produce the high tech jobs. China is rapidly expanding it's university system as well. India and China have adopted market capitalism and developing a robust middle class that can afford luxury goods. Their nation's leaders realize the next step is to move from manufacturing using cheap labor to being the folks that invent and engineer the goods they are producing. They are not their yet, but Americans better understand it's a global economy and competition is now global. The Japanese are learning this just like Americans as China, Malaysia, Singapore and Korea take business from them as well. Suggested reading: "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.
elaelap	posted 08-14-2010 08:17 PM ET (US) I'm sorry to see my topic turn into a discussion, albeit interesting and important, about socio/economic systems. Some of you who know my thoughts about these matters realize that if I began my usual left wing rap re these topics this thread would soon devolve into a hopeless, toxic mess of insult and personal attack. I began this thread because of a comment on another CW forum where the commentator seemed to assert that just because an outboard motor was made in Thailand, it was automatically of lesser quality. I think it's a mistake to make such assumptions about products from "emerging", "developing" nations, precisely for the reason I stated above: more often than not, especially when we're talking about the production of big ticket items like cars and yes, outboard motors, countries thus far unburdened by ageing production methods and unimaginative industrial models from the past are at a distinct advantage; i.e., their industrial facilities, because of their relative youth, are more advanced technologically than those of the developed nations, which are hampered by ageing, often static custom and design modalities. And it's not just the plants and equipment. I'm convinced that innovation and creativity is often healthier in vital, emerging economies as opposed to the older systems. We've seen it all here over the past three or four decades with the U.S. auto industry, much too plodding to get out of its own way, as the rest of the world, particularly Japan and Korea, have zoomed ahead in this area. Again, it's not politics or systems of government I'm talking about here, but of new versus old production methods and ways of thinking about industrial development. Anyway, while it greatly saddens me to see the loss of industrial strength and creativity in this country, that sad fact doesn't mean that I'll automatically discount and disparage successes in this area abroad, especially in developing economies. It's just the way of the world during this globalized historical period, and it's foolish, IMO, to pretend that it's otherwise. As many others have opined, the 21st century might well turn out to be an Asian-dominated era, at least as far as industry and innovation are concerned. Tony
contender	posted 08-14-2010 08:36 PM ET (US) Elaelap: Two very different worlds and you do not compare apples to apples, and like Pete stated they do not have to worry about laws and stupid law suits, if a worker does not work he is fired and some one else is ready to take his place on the 12 hour shift. They do not have the government wasting trillions of dollars on health care, cause there is none. Ask them how their pensions are or their Social Security and how much they make? Another problem that has always had me perplex is why the import taxes on foreign items are so cheap but when we send something to the same country the tax is sometimes over 50%. You wonder why our companies send things overseas...So keep bashing our companies here and demand more taxes from them... Sjuae: The only problem with purchasing a house/property in Thailand is that its only about a 14 hour flight to get there, and I do not care what paper you have(remember you are in a 3rd world foreign country) the government will/can take your property any time they want. Same thing happen to US Families in Mexico they lost everything. So unless you have more money than you know what to do with it or you are just paying the right people I guess it does not matter...Good luck to you, to each his own
Sheila	posted 08-14-2010 11:32 PM ET (US) http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand Some interesting details are available here.
David Pendleton	posted 08-14-2010 11:46 PM ET (US) quote: I'm sorry to see my topic turn into a discussion, albeit interesting and important, about socio/economic systems. Some of you who know my thoughts about these matters realize that if I began my usual left wing rap re these topics this thread would soon devolve into a hopeless, toxic mess of insult and personal attack. Tony, I've a tip for you; don't bring it up to begin with. You're not going to change any minds here. Not one. And no one is going to change your mind. It's a pointless exercise. Personally, I don't care what you think or believe. Just stop posting it here. You'll find legions of fellow travellers on the Daily KOS or Democratic Underground. Why not let them experience the wonderfulness that is Tony for themselves?
elaelap	posted 08-15-2010 08:44 AM ET (US) I see, David. Another long-time member of this forum and frequent, opinionated commentator can post a comment attacking some Suzuki outboards simply because they are made in Thailand, but I can't respond in a hopefully thoughtful manner. Why? Because it rattles your limited world view. I wonder why some of you here are so frightened of ideas that challenge your insular belief system. Our poor, wonderful, screwed-up world is, as it's always been, in a process of change. I pity those who can't enjoy the ride. Tony
SJUAE	posted 08-15-2010 08:46 AM ET (US) Contender I think you have more chance losing your house due to your employer outsourcing to Thailand/Asia, but that's another story. The average expats 2000sqft house in Thailand costs less than a new 20ft whaler, but it won't float as well :) Regards Steve
David Pendleton	posted 08-15-2010 09:50 AM ET (US) Tony, my world view is limited to telling you to STFU. Suzuki and Thailand and the Far East in general will be just fine without you. Your narcissim knows no bounds.
jimh	posted 08-15-2010 10:04 AM ET (US) OK--Enough. Thread closed. One interesting observation: The phrase "fellow travelers" was a code phrase used by the Soviet Union for Americans who were secret Soviet agents.