New 21' Revenge - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
  New 21' Revenge

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   New 21' Revenge

Frank W posted 09-19-2010 09:25 AM ET (US)
If someone wanted to produce, in production, a copy of the 1970's 21' Revenge/Outrage what is to prevent that? Does anyone know if the original molds still exist?
jimh posted 09-19-2010 09:42 AM ET (US)
I believe the last time the c.1970 OUTRAGE or REVENGE hulls were in production was probably c.1979. Typically the Boston Whaler company will retain the molds for a boat for at least ten years after the last production in order to be able to make replacement parts as necessary to fulfill the ten-year hull warranty. That would imply that the molds were still available in c.1989. However, at about this same time, the principal production location for Boston Whaler moved to Edgewater, Florida, from Rockland, Massachusetts. I suspect that the molds for the c.1970 OUTRAGE and REVENGE were likely left in Massachusetts, and were not moved to Florida. I doubt that those molds remain intact.
To make new molds, you would need an existing hull. The hull would have to be stripped of all hardware and fittings. The surface would have to be carefully smoothed and faired, then polished and waxed. The hull could then be used as a plug to make a new mold. You would also use an existing hull to make a mold of the liner. For the REVENGE you would also have to make a mold for the superstructure cap. Molds would also be needed to duplicate any other molded components such as hatch lids or molded panels.
I do not see any legal impediments to making a copy of a c.1971 21-foot hull. As far as I know the hull design is not protected by a design patent or a useful invention patent, and, since it was made decades prior to the recent legislation which allows hull designs to be registered and forbids copying them, there should be no prohibition against copying the hull under the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1998.
The Boston Whaler technique of making a Unibond hull is difficult to implement. There is also an old patent which protected the method for a while, but I believe the patent may have expired, as it was issued in 1957. My understanding is the term of protection for a useful invention by patents is limited to about 20-years, and thus I would expect that the method described would now be freely available for you to use.
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/originalPatent.html
The principal problem would be in making the hull with a high-density foam core. The molds that Boston Whaler uses are expensive to produce because they must be built to withstand the considerable pressure of expanding foam. I would not be surprised to know the molds could cost $100,000. You would also have the problem of learning how to create the foam interior. I am sure that some experimentation would be needed, and you would probably make some bad hulls before you got it right.
If you abandoned the foam core and used some other method to create strength and floatation in the hull, you may not produce a boat of the same weight and rigidity.
Frank W posted 09-20-2010 07:39 AM ET (US)
I think the technology can be worked out and the molds are in the budget. Would a 21' Revenge/Outrage sell today? I think the design is timeless. The sales price should be at the medium of that size boat. Would they sell???
dino54904 posted 09-20-2010 07:57 AM ET (US)
I don't think so.
You would be competing price wise with any and all existing 21' Revenge/Outrages that are in the used market. The price those boats sell for establish the price you will be able to sell the new ones for. They have established the bottom rung on the price ladder for that product. So the next question is how many units would you have to sell at what price to amortize your tooling cost and all other overhead and how long are you willing to go before you get a return on your investment? I'm assuming you want to make money on this project or at least break even. If there was a market for a remake of the 21 Revenge/Outrage I have to think that Brunswick would be chasing it. They could do it more economically that a start-up because they have fixed assests and resources they could use for the project that a start-up would have to create.
In summary - I think the market would not buy a 21 Revenge/Outrage in sufficient quantities for what you would have to charge for them if you were in it to make some money.
In a remake of a timeless design you still have to change something to make it more relevant for the times and so that the new product doesn't directly compete with the existing used units that are on the market. Take a look at how Chris Craft changed a timeless design with their existing Corsair series.
Dino
Loafer posted 09-20-2010 11:59 AM ET (US)
Although I like the hull form, I've got to agree with Dino... the market would be very thin and is likely to be fully satisfied by the current stock of classic hulls. However, the '70s era 19 foot low profile Outrage hull has retained considerable interest with the flats boat crowd and might be marketable under limited production (maybe on-order) if labor costs could be minimized. I would look at the Carolina Skiff foam log construction (which may or may not still be under patent) rather than the "unibond" construction that Boston Whaler uses. I would count on several things:
1) Start up costs would be 2X your most pessimistic assumptions.
2) Everyone will proclaim wild enthusiasm, but few if any will reach for their wallets at first.
3) The devil will be well entrenched in the details of fittings, wiring, marketing, shipping and collecting on invoices.
4) Don't forget that you will be all outgoing during your initial years with no income... so you'll need a substantial reserve to pay your lender, insurer, suppliers and labor costs for quite some time (as well as keeping your own belly-button as far from your vertibae as you can).
If you already have access to a fiberglass fab shop, a boat repair yard or a related business with experiance in this kind of business, plus a stubborn streak all the way to the bone (not to mention a spouse who is an enthusiastic partner), you'll still need a modicum of luck to bring it off.
But I like the idea...
L
SJUAE posted 09-20-2010 03:53 PM ET (US)
Apart from the build problems you would also not be able to easily make reference to Boston Whaler in your sales literature without prior permission
I also presume as your in the states you will have to carry extensive legal insurance cover
Regards
Steve
L H G posted 09-20-2010 05:02 PM ET (US)
If you attempt to pull this off, the 1971-1972 Ribside 21 is the one you want to "Splash". That's the one people want. But that top casting could be a costly problem. I heard that it was for Whaler at the time, which is why they went to the "Smoothside" in 1973-79.
But I agree that you'd have a hard time selling any old 21 copy in spite of the rarity of the originals. Nobody wants a "knockoff" non-foam filled Whaler.
I think the only people that could pull this off would be the Company itself, with a faom hull like the originals. And they could, but the Sea Ray design oriented people they have would never do it!
A legitimate, Ribside 21 Whaler re-introduction (after all it is the ORIGINAL Outrage), with improved bottom design, could sell. You would think smaller size,, weight and increased hull efficiency would be "in" right now. They could use Nautical Marine for the teak console top and RPS seatbacks.
For great performance and economy, all this hull needs is a 115-150HP engine. Even with twin 115HP 2-stroke 6 cylinder engines, I consistently average 2.75 MPG on mine. A pair of 60HP 4-strokes would probably produce 6 MPG.
How do I know it would sell? Every place I go with mine people of all kinds, whether they own a boat or not, are all over it. Most of the attention and interest comes from owners of other brands, too. I get unsolicited offers all the time. All I hear is "they don't make them like that anymore" and "let me know when you want to sell it."
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Outrage%2021/
jamesmylesmcp posted 09-20-2010 07:48 PM ET (US)
Larry , I agree , everywhere I go the Ribside draws draws attention and as with you offers to buy. Someone could splash one but it's never going to come close to the real deal.Mine fitted with an Optimax 150 sees 6 miles per gallon at cruise.
http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x44/ribside/?action=view& current=Picture006.jpg
Russ 13 posted 09-20-2010 08:17 PM ET (US)
What do you think about the possibility of the Classic 15
Sport & 17 Montauk's being remade by Boston Whaler??
..
Or does everyone like the latest design?
dfmcintyre posted 09-20-2010 08:57 PM ET (US)
While composing this thread, I feel like Yogi "It's like déjà vu all over again"...
I think that one key question is how much would someone spent for an updated 21'?.
And I'm in the same figurative boat with Larry; an updated bottom (maybe flush to bottom trim tabs?)and perhaps bumping the width out to a full eight feet. Choice between the traditional teak console or the updated fiberglass one for those less inclined towards brightwork.
We can all dream....
Don
Tohsgib posted 09-20-2010 09:21 PM ET (US)
Why??? there are plenty of older 19-21 Whalers in great shape....shoot me an offer!
Frank W posted 09-21-2010 05:10 PM ET (US)
So... are there any 21's out there on the East Coast that I can buy dirt cheap so I can take one apart. I would like to see what they look like on the inside. Just talked to fella that bought 7 from the State of Maryland but he just sold the last one. I'm located in Ft Lauderdale and NJ so any where in between is good for me. Production would be in the Ft Lauderdale area as this is the yachting capital of the world and there are plenty of hungry fellas here looking to make molds and boats. Technology is available locally. Cash is available for startup. I think I can put a plan together that the banks will like for purchasers. Lots of details to work out but if it was easy everyone would do it. What Brunswick does or does not do has little bearing on my thinking. I know no one that prefers the "new" boats over the old designs. I sure prefer Yamaha over Mercury. Besides.. it could be fun.
Jeff posted 09-21-2010 05:52 PM ET (US)
Hasn't Tran Sport and Gulfcoast Boats aready recreated the 21's? They label them 22's I believe. Didn't they cast their initial molds off of Whalers then modified them? Why recreate the wheel for the hull itself? If you really want to create a new 21 focus on building a cap for one of these hulls. That way you are already 1/2 way there. Though it is still a knock off.
http://texasoutdoorsportsman.com/tran/sport.php
http://www.gulfcoastboats.net/models.htm
There are all kinds of people who have splashed the Whaler Hulls. Here is a prime example..I saw these in New Bern NC 2 years ago. The dealer I spoke to said they cast the mold from an actual Whaler hull. 98%+ of the details where that of the 17' Whaler Hull. Even ripped off the logo. the seating and console where different but, if you threw an RPS in with a real Whaler console it would be hard to tell them apart from a real Whaler hull. It would take a well trained eye to know what they are were looking at a knock off from any distance away. The main difference were in the bow area. It was missing the hump for the Norman pin and it had a rectangular bow locker that looked like a non-smirked 16' hull has.
http://www.tyndallmarine.com/tyndall17expedition.htm
They also have a 13' hull that was obviously made from a 13' Whaler.
http://www.tyndallmarine.com/tyndall13.htm
No matter what, in the end they are still not Whalers.
If you really wanted to create a new 21, I bet you would be farther ahead by just taking beaten up 21's and restoring them to modern standards then casting and creating a hull and cap for "your own" 21.
Frank W posted 09-22-2010 11:43 AM ET (US)
Thanks Jeff for some good info.. They are now on my list to talk to.
L H G posted 09-22-2010 11:33 PM ET (US)
It would give me great pleasure to see any of those low life companies Jeff linked go BANKRUPT.

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: New 21' Revenge
Frank W	posted 09-19-2010 09:25 AM ET (US) If someone wanted to produce, in production, a copy of the 1970's 21' Revenge/Outrage what is to prevent that? Does anyone know if the original molds still exist?
jimh	posted 09-19-2010 09:42 AM ET (US) I believe the last time the c.1970 OUTRAGE or REVENGE hulls were in production was probably c.1979. Typically the Boston Whaler company will retain the molds for a boat for at least ten years after the last production in order to be able to make replacement parts as necessary to fulfill the ten-year hull warranty. That would imply that the molds were still available in c.1989. However, at about this same time, the principal production location for Boston Whaler moved to Edgewater, Florida, from Rockland, Massachusetts. I suspect that the molds for the c.1970 OUTRAGE and REVENGE were likely left in Massachusetts, and were not moved to Florida. I doubt that those molds remain intact. To make new molds, you would need an existing hull. The hull would have to be stripped of all hardware and fittings. The surface would have to be carefully smoothed and faired, then polished and waxed. The hull could then be used as a plug to make a new mold. You would also use an existing hull to make a mold of the liner. For the REVENGE you would also have to make a mold for the superstructure cap. Molds would also be needed to duplicate any other molded components such as hatch lids or molded panels. I do not see any legal impediments to making a copy of a c.1971 21-foot hull. As far as I know the hull design is not protected by a design patent or a useful invention patent, and, since it was made decades prior to the recent legislation which allows hull designs to be registered and forbids copying them, there should be no prohibition against copying the hull under the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act of 1998. The Boston Whaler technique of making a Unibond hull is difficult to implement. There is also an old patent which protected the method for a while, but I believe the patent may have expired, as it was issued in 1957. My understanding is the term of protection for a useful invention by patents is limited to about 20-years, and thus I would expect that the method described would now be freely available for you to use. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/originalPatent.html The principal problem would be in making the hull with a high-density foam core. The molds that Boston Whaler uses are expensive to produce because they must be built to withstand the considerable pressure of expanding foam. I would not be surprised to know the molds could cost $100,000. You would also have the problem of learning how to create the foam interior. I am sure that some experimentation would be needed, and you would probably make some bad hulls before you got it right. If you abandoned the foam core and used some other method to create strength and floatation in the hull, you may not produce a boat of the same weight and rigidity.
Frank W	posted 09-20-2010 07:39 AM ET (US) I think the technology can be worked out and the molds are in the budget. Would a 21' Revenge/Outrage sell today? I think the design is timeless. The sales price should be at the medium of that size boat. Would they sell???
dino54904	posted 09-20-2010 07:57 AM ET (US) I don't think so. You would be competing price wise with any and all existing 21' Revenge/Outrages that are in the used market. The price those boats sell for establish the price you will be able to sell the new ones for. They have established the bottom rung on the price ladder for that product. So the next question is how many units would you have to sell at what price to amortize your tooling cost and all other overhead and how long are you willing to go before you get a return on your investment? I'm assuming you want to make money on this project or at least break even. If there was a market for a remake of the 21 Revenge/Outrage I have to think that Brunswick would be chasing it. They could do it more economically that a start-up because they have fixed assests and resources they could use for the project that a start-up would have to create. In summary - I think the market would not buy a 21 Revenge/Outrage in sufficient quantities for what you would have to charge for them if you were in it to make some money. In a remake of a timeless design you still have to change something to make it more relevant for the times and so that the new product doesn't directly compete with the existing used units that are on the market. Take a look at how Chris Craft changed a timeless design with their existing Corsair series. Dino
Loafer	posted 09-20-2010 11:59 AM ET (US) Although I like the hull form, I've got to agree with Dino... the market would be very thin and is likely to be fully satisfied by the current stock of classic hulls. However, the '70s era 19 foot low profile Outrage hull has retained considerable interest with the flats boat crowd and might be marketable under limited production (maybe on-order) if labor costs could be minimized. I would look at the Carolina Skiff foam log construction (which may or may not still be under patent) rather than the "unibond" construction that Boston Whaler uses. I would count on several things: 1) Start up costs would be 2X your most pessimistic assumptions. 2) Everyone will proclaim wild enthusiasm, but few if any will reach for their wallets at first. 3) The devil will be well entrenched in the details of fittings, wiring, marketing, shipping and collecting on invoices. 4) Don't forget that you will be all outgoing during your initial years with no income... so you'll need a substantial reserve to pay your lender, insurer, suppliers and labor costs for quite some time (as well as keeping your own belly-button as far from your vertibae as you can). If you already have access to a fiberglass fab shop, a boat repair yard or a related business with experiance in this kind of business, plus a stubborn streak all the way to the bone (not to mention a spouse who is an enthusiastic partner), you'll still need a modicum of luck to bring it off. But I like the idea... L
SJUAE	posted 09-20-2010 03:53 PM ET (US) Apart from the build problems you would also not be able to easily make reference to Boston Whaler in your sales literature without prior permission I also presume as your in the states you will have to carry extensive legal insurance cover Regards Steve
L H G	posted 09-20-2010 05:02 PM ET (US) If you attempt to pull this off, the 1971-1972 Ribside 21 is the one you want to "Splash". That's the one people want. But that top casting could be a costly problem. I heard that it was for Whaler at the time, which is why they went to the "Smoothside" in 1973-79. But I agree that you'd have a hard time selling any old 21 copy in spite of the rarity of the originals. Nobody wants a "knockoff" non-foam filled Whaler. I think the only people that could pull this off would be the Company itself, with a faom hull like the originals. And they could, but the Sea Ray design oriented people they have would never do it! A legitimate, Ribside 21 Whaler re-introduction (after all it is the ORIGINAL Outrage), with improved bottom design, could sell. You would think smaller size,, weight and increased hull efficiency would be "in" right now. They could use Nautical Marine for the teak console top and RPS seatbacks. For great performance and economy, all this hull needs is a 115-150HP engine. Even with twin 115HP 2-stroke 6 cylinder engines, I consistently average 2.75 MPG on mine. A pair of 60HP 4-strokes would probably produce 6 MPG. How do I know it would sell? Every place I go with mine people of all kinds, whether they own a boat or not, are all over it. Most of the attention and interest comes from owners of other brands, too. I get unsolicited offers all the time. All I hear is "they don't make them like that anymore" and "let me know when you want to sell it." http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Outrage%2021/
jamesmylesmcp	posted 09-20-2010 07:48 PM ET (US) Larry , I agree , everywhere I go the Ribside draws draws attention and as with you offers to buy. Someone could splash one but it's never going to come close to the real deal.Mine fitted with an Optimax 150 sees 6 miles per gallon at cruise. http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x44/ribside/?action=view& current=Picture006.jpg
Russ 13	posted 09-20-2010 08:17 PM ET (US) What do you think about the possibility of the Classic 15 Sport & 17 Montauk's being remade by Boston Whaler?? .. Or does everyone like the latest design?
dfmcintyre	posted 09-20-2010 08:57 PM ET (US) While composing this thread, I feel like Yogi "It's like déjà vu all over again"... I think that one key question is how much would someone spent for an updated 21'?. And I'm in the same figurative boat with Larry; an updated bottom (maybe flush to bottom trim tabs?)and perhaps bumping the width out to a full eight feet. Choice between the traditional teak console or the updated fiberglass one for those less inclined towards brightwork. We can all dream.... Don
Tohsgib	posted 09-20-2010 09:21 PM ET (US) Why??? there are plenty of older 19-21 Whalers in great shape....shoot me an offer!
Frank W	posted 09-21-2010 05:10 PM ET (US) So... are there any 21's out there on the East Coast that I can buy dirt cheap so I can take one apart. I would like to see what they look like on the inside. Just talked to fella that bought 7 from the State of Maryland but he just sold the last one. I'm located in Ft Lauderdale and NJ so any where in between is good for me. Production would be in the Ft Lauderdale area as this is the yachting capital of the world and there are plenty of hungry fellas here looking to make molds and boats. Technology is available locally. Cash is available for startup. I think I can put a plan together that the banks will like for purchasers. Lots of details to work out but if it was easy everyone would do it. What Brunswick does or does not do has little bearing on my thinking. I know no one that prefers the "new" boats over the old designs. I sure prefer Yamaha over Mercury. Besides.. it could be fun.
Jeff	posted 09-21-2010 05:52 PM ET (US) Hasn't Tran Sport and Gulfcoast Boats aready recreated the 21's? They label them 22's I believe. Didn't they cast their initial molds off of Whalers then modified them? Why recreate the wheel for the hull itself? If you really want to create a new 21 focus on building a cap for one of these hulls. That way you are already 1/2 way there. Though it is still a knock off. http://texasoutdoorsportsman.com/tran/sport.php http://www.gulfcoastboats.net/models.htm There are all kinds of people who have splashed the Whaler Hulls. Here is a prime example..I saw these in New Bern NC 2 years ago. The dealer I spoke to said they cast the mold from an actual Whaler hull. 98%+ of the details where that of the 17' Whaler Hull. Even ripped off the logo. the seating and console where different but, if you threw an RPS in with a real Whaler console it would be hard to tell them apart from a real Whaler hull. It would take a well trained eye to know what they are were looking at a knock off from any distance away. The main difference were in the bow area. It was missing the hump for the Norman pin and it had a rectangular bow locker that looked like a non-smirked 16' hull has. http://www.tyndallmarine.com/tyndall17expedition.htm They also have a 13' hull that was obviously made from a 13' Whaler. http://www.tyndallmarine.com/tyndall13.htm No matter what, in the end they are still not Whalers. If you really wanted to create a new 21, I bet you would be farther ahead by just taking beaten up 21's and restoring them to modern standards then casting and creating a hull and cap for "your own" 21.
Frank W	posted 09-22-2010 11:43 AM ET (US) Thanks Jeff for some good info.. They are now on my list to talk to.
L H G	posted 09-22-2010 11:33 PM ET (US) It would give me great pleasure to see any of those low life companies Jeff linked go BANKRUPT.