posted 09-22-2010 10:54 AM ET (US)        

Is the same true all the way down to unlicensed "captains" of recreational craft? Suppose I make a reasonable request of a passenger in the name of safety or other serious purpose (putting PFDs on when necessary, not standing or sitting or moving in certain places, no smoking).

posted 09-22-2010 11:03 AM ET (US)            

My guess is "no".

Which is why if you can't reasonably comply with directions aboard my boat, the journey is generally terminated, and a second invitation is not extended.

I've only had this problem once, and alcohol was involved (not surprisingly). That problem has since been resolved and the individual is a regular passenger aboard my boat.

People generally only need to test your resolve once, if your "or else" has teeth.

Dave

posted 09-22-2010 11:01 PM ET (US)            

As much as my wife & her three sisters loved and respected their father, and as educated and reasonable as they all are personally, they always took exception to their father's directions and/or orders given while he was piloting his Watkins 27 Sailboat. They regulaqrly referred to him as Captain Blye

They just didn't seem to grasp the idea that while aboard a boat out on the water some one has to be in charge of the operation of the boat and therefore the safety of those aboard.

I know my wife has referred to me as being mean, bossy, demanding, etc, etc, while on boat outings. I admit that while out on the water when something is happening quickly and you need assistance or need to direct someone in a hurry it's easy to raise your voice and even yell to get your point across. Not that I condone it but it can happen very easily.

There is an interesting article in Boat U.S. Magazine's October-November 2010 issue titled "How to get your lover to love your boat"

And I agree with Dave, if you're on my boat be on your best behavior if you want another invitation or you don't want to swim home

posted 09-22-2010 11:19 PM ET (US)            

I used to run rivers in the PNW. Often times inexperienced people would be on the trips. We had to fully brief them and sometimes we had to get real serious when someone wouldn't wear a PFD or sit to the middle or was just screwing off. Let alone the necessity to follow fishing regulations when ODFW or Warm Springs Tribe patrols were 'glassing" boats and fishermen from the rocks. I still go through a briefing.

Homeaside, we kind of had that conversation. I went through years of tension and conflicts (occasional) including the girls who'd get on board and lay all over the decks and then complain when we hit a wake or chop. In time, that has changed.

POINT IS - tonight we had a serious breakthough. Ellen took the helm at the dock and backed out and started our Muskegon Lake/ Lake Michigan cruise by driving the boat. It was super cool. She now coils line, ties up pretty well, helps prep the boat for launching, stows stuff at tie down and is getting it figured out. She comes back to the helm when we get in rougher water. She no longer hands me a beer in front of the Sheriff's boat or USCG. She looks first.

During our cruise tonight she took the helm several times and actually drove the boat while I casted top waters along the reeds and weed beds. Then she drove the boat to the dock and actually steered right in first shot, close to perfect I worked the throttle. She was feeling mighty good. I got to sit on my forward cooler seat - a rare time.

posted 09-23-2010 01:26 AM ET (US)         

So if there are other people on board to substantiate an Owner's/Captain's instruction was intentionally ignored, maybe the Owner/Captain could get off. But Jurys love to stick it to the perceived "rich" person who can afford to own a boat and hold them liable for whatever happens on, or with, the boat.

posted 09-23-2010 09:37 PM ET (US)            

Boating falls into this category.

posted 09-24-2010 01:39 AM ET (US)            

That's my point if you don't have cover or limited assets they will find the one who does. Therfore if the boat sank ( in your example) won't they sue the boat manufacturer for providing insufficient buoyancy or some other tangible reason like they did with the prop accident ie find the one who can afford to payout :)

posted 09-24-2010 06:54 AM ET (US)            

great post. I can't wait til she starts yelling at you for standing in her line of sight while docking, lol. I guess it would be a problem you would
like to have!

All kidding aside, my boat has remained nameless, but if I were to name her, it would be "Marshall Law". I am a tyrant on my boat at times because the situation calls for it.

People are generally suprised because I really do not care about much. (e.g you forget to open the bail on my spinning rod and cast my 15 dollar plug or lure which the line immediately snaps and sends my gear to Davy jones locker........ For the 3rd time that day) or you have been inshore fishing with me when I am more lax with the rules.

Offshore, with limited resources, miles of leader wire and 100 gallons of high octane on the deck in 6 footers and lots of time and money invested in the day, I will rip you a new one for risking my life and others for not following instructions. I would fishbat someone if I had too.

posted 09-24-2010 07:16 AM ET (US)            

It is our right to sue anyone for anything we want. And, you can usually find a lawyer to represent you. So yes, a person could sue the mfg of the boat for simply sinking just like people sue an aircraft manufacturer when an airplane crashes or when a person sues a firearms manufacturer when the gun they bought goes off and hurts them. Outboard engine manufacturers have been sued for damage caused from rotating props many, many times over the years.

The original question was from the original posting - If some bad consequence were to arise due to the "order" being ignored, is there any law backing me up if this ever got ugly (lawsuits etc)? And the answer is that if you (or a boat or engine builder) can be found to be negligent a warning (verbal or written) does not usually protect you from a lawsuit. Look at all the things they warn you about in a boat or engine owners manual. Those warnings do not protect the manufacturer from a lawsuit when the issue is negligence. Those warnings simply fulfill the manufactures obligation to warn you of potential situations they know to exist. Those warnings don't stop them from being sued...they just showed they tried thier best to warn you and utilize the standard process within the industry to do that.

posted 09-24-2010 09:37 AM ET (US)            

I know that you're being sarcastic here, dino, but some might be misled by this comment. Reasonably free access to civil courts is available in our system, but there are limits, my friend, including monetary sanctions (and even, via contempt of court situations, jail time) for outrageously frivolous lawsuits or continuing bad behavior and misuse of the courts (e.g., in California, one can be denied access via the "vexations litigator" statute). Do some seemingly ridiculous lawsuits get filed? Of course. Do these survive past the defendant's first summary judgment motion? Rarely. That's real world everyday law, BTW, not the nonsense you read in the tabloids.

LHG/Larry's got it right: if you own and operate a boat, make sure you have strong insurance coverage, handle your boat with reasonable care, and don't lose sleep about potential lawsuits. Think about it this way: every year in our nation something like 40,000 folks die and God knows how many more are injured in traffic accidents, which provides good fodder for personal injury attorneys, both plaintiff and insurance defense. You wouldn't think of driving without sufficient liability coverage (I hope); think the same way about boating and...don't worry; be happy!

posted 09-24-2010 09:43 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

...I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

---

Well said - and a good way to put it into perspective for life and death situations...

posted 09-24-2010 09:56 AM ET (US)            

I love the 'I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6' quote!

posted 09-24-2010 10:08 AM ET (US)            

Aboard my boat or vehicle or in my home I want you to have a good time. But, it's my property you occupy and I expect you to respect my wishes in regard to your conduct, dress, and language. The objective is the safety of all concerned and to avoid offense to others.

If you are unable or unwilling to respect my wishes we are done. If it's my home you must leave. If it's my vehicle or boat I'll return you to your vehicle.

I have a policy that almost always avoids conflicts. There is a three drink limit on my boat and in my home unless it's clear you have already had a drink in which case I may or may not serve you another. No one drinks in my vehicle, ever.

Butch

posted 09-24-2010 11:46 AM ET (US)            

I agree with you that a lot of lawsuits are thrown out of court on summary judgement. The problem is that it cost tens of thousands of dollars just to get a frivolous lawsuit reviewed by a judge and that is what is hurting so many people and business's.

posted 09-24-2010 12:09 PM ET (US)         

quote:

---

In any activity, in which there is a higher risk associated, say than knitting, someone needs to be in control, lay out expectations and take steps that mitigate risk, harm and a general ruination of the activity.

---

Very powerful statement right there. Very powerful.

posted 09-24-2010 12:34 PM ET (US)            

What do you see?

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv129/bluewaterpirate/ bluewaterpirate%20original/Contender.jpg?t=1285345870

posted 09-24-2010 03:51 PM ET (US)            

It seems if you are out of work mortgaged to the hilt go out and enjoy your not worth suing. However, You may need sufficient insurance to cover your assets etc in case your buddy decides to sue you lol. The analogy to car insurance is not a good example as in most countries it's compulsory. It seems that if you are a good friend neighbour or citizen it's almost unforgivable not to have liability insurance in the US :(

Back on topic:

So it seems what we thought as old maritime laws are not a strong defence

posted 09-25-2010 04:01 AM ET (US)            

Upon arrival I see him pounding on the shore and 4 rocks awash with heavy surf between us and him. What scared me more was not knowing how many more rocks I wasn't seeing because the place was a real rock pile.

Due to the raging winds and seas all of our conversatios occurred via VHF radio. I suggested that it would be safer for him to winch himself ashore and wait for the storm to subside before trying to pull him off and thread us both back through the rocks, but he thought he'd lose the boat. I'm thinking worst case at least they were already ashore so they'd survive but if we tried to pull them off and failed they might not.

I threaded our way through the rocks and we got a line on him.
I suggested that both of them put on PFD's and stay on deck so that they wouldn't have to swim out of a cabin if they rolled.
They both stayed in the cabin(I never did see a PFD).
I'm towing from the bow in reverse and we start out. Every wave that crashes over our stern causes slack in the tow line and their boat to start to broach then the slack would tow out and their bow to be pulled back through the wave. They had a few thrills but it all turned out OK.

If it didn't I've wondered if the Coast Guard would hang me out to dry because I've got a license. If I had hit a rock there's a good chance that they would have rolled and we would have ended up on top of them. He's the captain of his boat and their decision to stay in the cabin without pfd's. I respect their decision that it might be more risk of being washed off the boat than the risk of rolling, but I think they were both surprised at the broaching and rolling action of their vessel.
Would I be at fault for continuing a tow where I thought the occupants would be safer on the shore And where I didn't ensure that everyone was wearing PFD's?
Thanks, Greg

posted 09-25-2010 08:26 AM ET (US)            

(1): There are no "Captains" on pleasure craft. Captains are licensed merchant marine officers, excerciising their license in the performance of duties that require it. The term "Captain" is properly one of courtesy, and is correctly used by licensed mariners in correepondance, form of address, etc. Running a small boat with your friends does not make you a Captain. It makes you an Operator. Many licensed deck officers don't even consider a 6-Pack license to entitle the holder to the title, that license not being a "Masters" licence, but rather an "Operator of uninspected Vessels" (Note term "Operator"). An interesting note is that the Coast Guard radio watchstanders are under orders to use the term "Captain" when replying to a vessel in distress, not because they assume the person is a licensed deck officer (or are giving them any credit for it), but as a psychological tool to reinforce the fact that the person they are talking to needs to accept the responsibility of thre situation, IE: "Wake up you stupid jerk... YOU ran out of fuel and are now YOU are drifing towards the waves, so get YOUR ass in gear, get your PFD's on, and get your anchor on the bottom CAPTAIN"... etc.

(2) When things go wrong, and life is in peril, you do your best, use your best judgement, and then let things sort out in the manner that they do. If you feel the need at that moment to balance your actions against a "what will the Coast Guard think" matrix, you probably don't deserve a Masters license.

(3): One of the only benefits given by the Coast Guard to licensed Merchant Marine Officers is the entitlement to a burial at sea done from a Coast Guard Cutter with honors, at no cost. Try to die in bed at an old age, and not while attempting to rescue some buffoon "Captain" who has placed himself in peril thru his own stupidity. Do your best, but don't kill yourself while doing so.

Dave

.

posted 09-25-2010 10:16 AM ET (US)            

Having the right stuff when when it's called for is something we all hope we have but it seems if something goes wrong during the process/rescue you are wide open for post actions against you.

This is typified in road accidents if you try and help other than your moral conscious being at rest your wallet may not.

posted 09-25-2010 01:27 PM ET (US)            

I think he must have been trying to stay light to keep his jet boat from cavetating on the way out. Usually fuel is available pretty much everywhere but conditions were bad enough that the tenders were all hiding and his radio pretty weak. I couldn't hear him until within several miles of him and only knew of his trouble because of a tender relaying the information. They were pretty tight with Murph that day and had blown a long way off of his course to end up where he did. The further they blew the worse the conditions got until they were in about the worst spot that they could have been in.

Wind was blowing from me to him and I had the only line suitable for towing. It was all we could do to get him the lines without hitting rocks and ending up on top of him. First a floating heaving line then a heavy towing line. Using his lines were out of the question.

posted 09-26-2010 12:36 PM ET (US)            

good for you. You have a brass set of ba**s with the skill and "know how" to use them.

I help folks out all the time, but never in those extreme circumstances. You saw the deal and made the call based upon the situation and your abilities. A lesson for evryone.

posted 10-01-2010 07:36 AM ET (US)            

...but what about injury and/or property damage? That's where the lines get blurred, right?

I guess I think all situations on a boat have deadly consequences. Let's say I am coming up to a dock and, as is typical, the "first timer" decides to run to the front of the boat and jump on the dock to "help me out" with the lines.

Subsequently I tell them not to, they keep on, I say or do nothing and then they slip on the deck while attempting to dock, fall over, hit thier head and either drown, get crushed between the boat and the dock, get hit by the propeller, or even worse, all three.

In cases like these, I am an a- hole in warning everyone in advance and carrying out verbal abuse if they decide they know better.

Now the real question of the post should be, how do you know if your captain is competant and you should follow his every word, lol

one small correction on my last post. I would name my boat "martial law" not Marshall. Duh

posted 10-01-2010 07:08 PM ET (US)            

Since most of our Whalering is off the trailer things are somewhat different I presume.

I call the shots during the launch and tell everyone to stand by and out of the way unless someone has experience. I announce - "Okay, here's the way it's going to go regarding the boat ride...." and I let them know I get in the boat first and get things ready. I generally make sure everyone has something to do like cooler duty, 'hold this line just like this, keep the boat tight to the dock...", let's check and see what you want to take on the trip - generally most goes if not, I say this can go, that can't and usually I don't get much back talk.

If fishing I put all the tackle and rods on the dock, get into the boat and have passengers hand stuff to me so they can see me stow everything properly.

I have everyone to stand on the dock while I get in, fire up the motor, turn on radio, GPS/finder and always anticipate someone is going jump in - that doesn't happen in my boat.

Once I'm in and everything is secure I tell passengers to get in and in what order and what part of the boat to get in. For some reason people want to climb over those rails instead of enter amidships or aft. Once everyone is in, I do one more thing that works great - offer dry bags to stow stuff. I have four actually and usually take two, one medium blue bag for jackets, shirts etc and one clear, small bag for keys, wallets, cell phones, cameras and one bigger horizontal bag that goes sometimes for towels and other stuff. I have two of those smaller clear bags and sometimes just give an empty one to passengers. I show them how to seal the bags and clip them to a rail for easy access.

This goes easy, it's "the drill", I'm very consistent and very positive and quick.

Once all this happens and we're on our way I have established myself as top dog and the rest is easy. I have a great console that can handle lots of stuff so that helps

posted 10-01-2010 08:08 PM ET (US)            

Suffice it say, you aren't going to tolerate bad behavior on the part of your guests on your boat. Big surprise there.

posted 10-02-2010 02:06 AM ET (US)            

Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

If you have a passenger who comprimises your authority or safe navigation and you want to drop him off somewhere SAFE or hog tie him to the deck...hehe, Rule 2, AKA, General Prudential Rule, AKA, Rule of Good Seamanship will cover you in court.

posted 10-02-2010 08:44 AM ET (US)         

skinny-

posted 10-02-2010 11:04 AM ET (US)            

I could do Whaler sunset marriages. If they can do it in Vegas why not on my Whaler?