The 2010 Debate on Fuel Tank Level For Winter Lay-up

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Author Topic:   The 2010 Debate on Fuel Tank Level For Winter Lay-up

nats posted 10-14-2010 01:28 PM ET (US)
With the boating season coming to an end here in the Northeast. I am wondering is it better to top your tank off, or let it run low, before winterizing.
wyeisland posted 10-14-2010 01:40 PM ET (US)
Top it off and add plenty of stabilizer. That leaves no air volume for condensation. Change your filter element in the spring and have fun burning off last year's fuel.
Tohsgib posted 10-14-2010 03:23 PM ET (US)
Actually with today's gas many are not recommending that tactic. If your run ethanol-free gas I would, if you run pump I would want as little as possible in my tank for 6 months or so. There was a write-up in Boating magazine, and again 50/50 on both techniques. However use stabilizer unless it is included in your marine fuel.
jimh posted 10-14-2010 05:16 PM ET (US)
This debate is renewed every fall. Store the boat with the fuel tank full, empty, or somewhere in between.
dino54904 posted 10-14-2010 05:20 PM ET (US)
I've done it every way and it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. If I think fuel will go up in price in spring I fill it up in fall. If I think it will go down...I put it off 'till spring. Just make sure you use a fuel stabilizer.
Peter posted 10-14-2010 06:20 PM ET (US)
I think we've had E10 fuel for about 5 years now. Before lay up every year, I fill the tanks in my Whaler 27 WD to about 3/4 full. That's at least 250 gallons of stabilized fuel sitting in the tanks all Winter. I typically change the fuel filter/water separators mid-season and the most water I've ever seen in the bottom of the filter/seprator is about a teaspoon. This is after running hundreds of gallons of fuel through the filter/separator. I often go for a month or more before taking on any fuel in the next season.
RevengeFamily posted 10-14-2010 06:53 PM ET (US)
On my 280 Conquest I have twin 149 gallon tanks.
Last year when my tanks were down to 1/4 full I added stabilizer to that 37 gallons. Then ran the boat to within 20 gallons of empty. Before I shrink wrapped the boat I put caps on the fuel tank vents to minimize air exchange into the tanks. In the spring I spun on new fuel filters. Opened the old filters and found no water. I'll do the same this year, because I've been doing it that way for twenty years and have never had a problem in the spring.
Norm
rtk posted 10-14-2010 09:51 PM ET (US)
I love the change in the topic Jim.
I always add my .02 to the topic because I am hyper-vigilant on monitoring fuel in the tank.
I've stored my boat for the winter every which way since 2003. I used to make an effort to run it down to as little fuel as possible for winter lay up on advice from my Mercury mechanic.
Sometimes it just was not realistic because I leave my boat in until the the last possible moment depending on weather in New Jersey. An early to mid-December haul out is typical for me.
It is usually a last minute decision based on weather and fishing.
So whatever fuel is in the tank when it is hauled that is the way it is stored.
There has been 0 (zero) water in my RACOR fuel filter after a winter lay up when the boat has been stored with very low fuel to almost full.
Condensation is a paranoid myth when it comes to significant fuel contamination. If there is water in your fuel in a significant amount it is not due to condensation.
Treat fuel with a stabilizer every time you refuel and make sure your fuel tank does not permit water to enter it. Maintaining healthy fuel quality is that simple.
Obviously if a supplier has poor fuel it is not a problem you can control.
A side note- my 1997 21 Outrage has the combination gas fill/fuel vent as opposed to a separate fuel fill and tank vent. The cap goes back on pretty tight. The vent is not open to air- I guess it works on fuel vacuum and tank pressure when tank venting is needed but keeps a tight seal when vacuum/pressure is stable.
Maybe that helps my fuel management situation.
Rich
jimh posted 10-14-2010 10:15 PM ET (US)
Right now I calculate I have about 11-gallons of mostly ethanol-free gasoline in my 77-gallon tank, stabilized with the agent recommended by the manufacturer of my motor. I see no sign of any water being caught in my RACOR filter. I'll add fresh fuel in the spring.
[I should also mention storage is indoors and maintained at a near-constant temperature of about 55-degrees.]
sosmerc posted 10-14-2010 10:38 PM ET (US)
I am convinced that the subject of how to properly "store" fuel during periods of non-use is totally a function of where you live (local weather conditions), the type of fuel tank (aluminum, steel, plastic, stainless, fiberglass, etc), capacity of tank, type of fuel, etc.
There is NO Correct answer.
For me, I am in the Pacific Northwest. My boat has a plastic tank with 56 gallon capacity. I rarely have more than 20 gallons in the tank at any one time. BUT, my fuel is always treated with Startron, and I have a Racor setup that allows me to easily visually inspect as well as drain for a sample to inspect. I generally add at least 5 gallons of fresh mid-grade fuel prior to each outing to help insure that my octane level is near 89. So far, so good.
Davm posted 10-16-2010 09:48 AM ET (US)
I store mine full because of the condensation, and, when I am ready to go fishing, I don't want to stop for gas. One year I used the red preservative instead of the Mercury preservative. The big engine didn't care but the 9.9 kicker gave me fits until I got rid of the gas and overhauled the carb. I kept finding an oil residue inside the carb which was blocking passages.
jimh posted 10-16-2010 10:15 AM ET (US)
There is no debate on the use of preservative or other additives to maintain fuel quality during storage. The question here is simply to the level of the fuel in the tank.
fourdfish posted 10-18-2010 11:33 PM ET (US)
I always put my boat away will the tanks completely filled and no water. The one year I neglected to top them off, I got some water in the filter.
L H G posted 10-19-2010 12:00 AM ET (US)
Jim's comment of "somewhere in between", you don't do, unless you have on-deck plastic tanks.
Anything you read, by any of the experts, says you either drain the belly tank empty (if you can), or fill it to the brim, at least 95%.
The issue is not water getting to the engine, because as Fourdy indicates, the filter will get that in the Spring. Rather it is the phase-separated alcohol-water mix, corroding the bottom of your tank, particularly the corner seams. And you will never know it until you smell the fuel leaking. Unless you are in heated storage, you will get condensation dripping off the top of the tank into the gasohol. It's those warm, humid air fronts immediately following a period of intense cold, that does it. The tank is still freezing cold, being well insulated like a Thermos bottle by Whaler's foam construction, and the relatively warm humid air comes down the vent and condenses. With no motion with the boat for 60 days, you have corrosion setting in, guaranteed.
I have opened a garage door in the winter to check on my stored 18 Outrage, picking one these unusually warm winter days to do it, and within seconds the entire hull of the boat sweats and drips water. It's really amazing to see. You can only imagine the same thing happening inside the tank top surface and sides, exposed because of a less than full fuel level.
jimh posted 10-19-2010 08:27 AM ET (US)
Warm humid air, being lighter than the cold air inside a tank, will not come down the vent hose.
ConB posted 10-19-2010 09:49 AM ET (US)
I went out of my way to buy ethanol-free fuel the last two years.
I am going to contact Myth Busters to see if they will test the condensation theory. I will report back in the 2011 fuel storage thread.
Con
L H G posted 10-19-2010 09:10 PM ET (US)
I realize that on this website whatever is published by Mercury Marine is considered a myth, but for what it's worth:
http://www.mercurymarine.com/service-and-support/ storage-and-maintenance/faqs/outboards/ ?category=winterstorage#EthanolStorage
onlyawhaler posted 10-19-2010 09:29 PM ET (US)
It has been mentioned above by several posters that upon examination of their gasoline filters, they could find no water.
My question is how do you know if there is water or not? These are spin on, throw away like an automotive oil filter.
I have looked at mine when removing every spring, tipped them upside down, smelled them, I can't tell. What is inside is absorbed by the filter element, water or gas.
Just asking
Onlyawhaler
L H G posted 10-20-2010 12:52 AM ET (US)
Pour the entire contents of the filter into a glass jar. If it has separated out some water, you will see it.
If it's clean, clear gasoline, just pour it back into the fuel tank!
Bokeefe posted 10-20-2010 12:26 PM ET (US)
I dumped the two 6gal. tanks from my 2009 150 Montauk into my wife's minivan and let the tanks air dry for a couple of days. That's what my dealer told me to do. This is my first winter so I have zero experience to fall back on. Really depressed that it had to be winterized at all! I envy all of you in year round locations!
6992WHALER posted 10-20-2010 01:46 PM ET (US)
I always stored the 23-footer over the winter with a full 180-gallon fuel tank. The engines never ran well in the spring, I even had to use starting fluid a couple of times to get them to start. The bad performance always goes away when I add new gas. Last winter I stored the boat with about 80 gallons in the tank. I topped it off in the spring and she ran great. So I am going to personally store with the tank not full.
My 17-footer has 6-gallon tanks. I do store these completely empty or completely full. That engine has never had a problem running on gas stored over the winter.
As you can see I store using both rules because my boats have told me how they prefer to be stored.
JMARTIN posted 10-20-2010 02:39 PM ET (US)
Let's play gasoline future trader. If you think the price of gas will be more at the start of boating season next year, fill up now. If you think it will be less, leave the tank as it is.
For a reference, here are PNW ballpark gasoline prices for my end of season to start of season for the past couple of years.

10/20/06 $2.52
05/01/07 $3.55
10/20/07 $3.12
05/01/08 $2.79
10/20/08 $2.99
05/01/09 $2.39
10/20/09 $2.76
05/01/10 $3.17
10/20/10 $3.09
05/01/11 $?.??
Since petroleum people like full tanks, I top off in October. Here is how I did.
2007 saved $1.03
2008 lost $0.33
2009 lost $0.60
2010 saved $0.41
I will probably have a loss again, but I am going to fill up.
John


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Author	Topic: The 2010 Debate on Fuel Tank Level For Winter Lay-up
nats	posted 10-14-2010 01:28 PM ET (US) With the boating season coming to an end here in the Northeast. I am wondering is it better to top your tank off, or let it run low, before winterizing.
wyeisland	posted 10-14-2010 01:40 PM ET (US) Top it off and add plenty of stabilizer. That leaves no air volume for condensation. Change your filter element in the spring and have fun burning off last year's fuel.
Tohsgib	posted 10-14-2010 03:23 PM ET (US) Actually with today's gas many are not recommending that tactic. If your run ethanol-free gas I would, if you run pump I would want as little as possible in my tank for 6 months or so. There was a write-up in Boating magazine, and again 50/50 on both techniques. However use stabilizer unless it is included in your marine fuel.
jimh	posted 10-14-2010 05:16 PM ET (US) This debate is renewed every fall. Store the boat with the fuel tank full, empty, or somewhere in between.
dino54904	posted 10-14-2010 05:20 PM ET (US) I've done it every way and it didn't seem to make a bit of difference. If I think fuel will go up in price in spring I fill it up in fall. If I think it will go down...I put it off 'till spring. Just make sure you use a fuel stabilizer.
Peter	posted 10-14-2010 06:20 PM ET (US) I think we've had E10 fuel for about 5 years now. Before lay up every year, I fill the tanks in my Whaler 27 WD to about 3/4 full. That's at least 250 gallons of stabilized fuel sitting in the tanks all Winter. I typically change the fuel filter/water separators mid-season and the most water I've ever seen in the bottom of the filter/seprator is about a teaspoon. This is after running hundreds of gallons of fuel through the filter/separator. I often go for a month or more before taking on any fuel in the next season.
RevengeFamily	posted 10-14-2010 06:53 PM ET (US) On my 280 Conquest I have twin 149 gallon tanks. Last year when my tanks were down to 1/4 full I added stabilizer to that 37 gallons. Then ran the boat to within 20 gallons of empty. Before I shrink wrapped the boat I put caps on the fuel tank vents to minimize air exchange into the tanks. In the spring I spun on new fuel filters. Opened the old filters and found no water. I'll do the same this year, because I've been doing it that way for twenty years and have never had a problem in the spring. Norm
rtk	posted 10-14-2010 09:51 PM ET (US) I love the change in the topic Jim. I always add my .02 to the topic because I am hyper-vigilant on monitoring fuel in the tank. I've stored my boat for the winter every which way since 2003. I used to make an effort to run it down to as little fuel as possible for winter lay up on advice from my Mercury mechanic. Sometimes it just was not realistic because I leave my boat in until the the last possible moment depending on weather in New Jersey. An early to mid-December haul out is typical for me. It is usually a last minute decision based on weather and fishing. So whatever fuel is in the tank when it is hauled that is the way it is stored. There has been 0 (zero) water in my RACOR fuel filter after a winter lay up when the boat has been stored with very low fuel to almost full. Condensation is a paranoid myth when it comes to significant fuel contamination. If there is water in your fuel in a significant amount it is not due to condensation. Treat fuel with a stabilizer every time you refuel and make sure your fuel tank does not permit water to enter it. Maintaining healthy fuel quality is that simple. Obviously if a supplier has poor fuel it is not a problem you can control. A side note- my 1997 21 Outrage has the combination gas fill/fuel vent as opposed to a separate fuel fill and tank vent. The cap goes back on pretty tight. The vent is not open to air- I guess it works on fuel vacuum and tank pressure when tank venting is needed but keeps a tight seal when vacuum/pressure is stable. Maybe that helps my fuel management situation. Rich
jimh	posted 10-14-2010 10:15 PM ET (US) Right now I calculate I have about 11-gallons of mostly ethanol-free gasoline in my 77-gallon tank, stabilized with the agent recommended by the manufacturer of my motor. I see no sign of any water being caught in my RACOR filter. I'll add fresh fuel in the spring. [I should also mention storage is indoors and maintained at a near-constant temperature of about 55-degrees.]
sosmerc	posted 10-14-2010 10:38 PM ET (US) I am convinced that the subject of how to properly "store" fuel during periods of non-use is totally a function of where you live (local weather conditions), the type of fuel tank (aluminum, steel, plastic, stainless, fiberglass, etc), capacity of tank, type of fuel, etc. There is NO Correct answer. For me, I am in the Pacific Northwest. My boat has a plastic tank with 56 gallon capacity. I rarely have more than 20 gallons in the tank at any one time. BUT, my fuel is always treated with Startron, and I have a Racor setup that allows me to easily visually inspect as well as drain for a sample to inspect. I generally add at least 5 gallons of fresh mid-grade fuel prior to each outing to help insure that my octane level is near 89. So far, so good.
Davm	posted 10-16-2010 09:48 AM ET (US) I store mine full because of the condensation, and, when I am ready to go fishing, I don't want to stop for gas. One year I used the red preservative instead of the Mercury preservative. The big engine didn't care but the 9.9 kicker gave me fits until I got rid of the gas and overhauled the carb. I kept finding an oil residue inside the carb which was blocking passages.
jimh	posted 10-16-2010 10:15 AM ET (US) There is no debate on the use of preservative or other additives to maintain fuel quality during storage. The question here is simply to the level of the fuel in the tank.
fourdfish	posted 10-18-2010 11:33 PM ET (US) I always put my boat away will the tanks completely filled and no water. The one year I neglected to top them off, I got some water in the filter.
L H G	posted 10-19-2010 12:00 AM ET (US) Jim's comment of "somewhere in between", you don't do, unless you have on-deck plastic tanks. Anything you read, by any of the experts, says you either drain the belly tank empty (if you can), or fill it to the brim, at least 95%. The issue is not water getting to the engine, because as Fourdy indicates, the filter will get that in the Spring. Rather it is the phase-separated alcohol-water mix, corroding the bottom of your tank, particularly the corner seams. And you will never know it until you smell the fuel leaking. Unless you are in heated storage, you will get condensation dripping off the top of the tank into the gasohol. It's those warm, humid air fronts immediately following a period of intense cold, that does it. The tank is still freezing cold, being well insulated like a Thermos bottle by Whaler's foam construction, and the relatively warm humid air comes down the vent and condenses. With no motion with the boat for 60 days, you have corrosion setting in, guaranteed. I have opened a garage door in the winter to check on my stored 18 Outrage, picking one these unusually warm winter days to do it, and within seconds the entire hull of the boat sweats and drips water. It's really amazing to see. You can only imagine the same thing happening inside the tank top surface and sides, exposed because of a less than full fuel level.
jimh	posted 10-19-2010 08:27 AM ET (US) Warm humid air, being lighter than the cold air inside a tank, will not come down the vent hose.
ConB	posted 10-19-2010 09:49 AM ET (US) I went out of my way to buy ethanol-free fuel the last two years. I am going to contact Myth Busters to see if they will test the condensation theory. I will report back in the 2011 fuel storage thread. Con
L H G	posted 10-19-2010 09:10 PM ET (US) I realize that on this website whatever is published by Mercury Marine is considered a myth, but for what it's worth: http://www.mercurymarine.com/service-and-support/ storage-and-maintenance/faqs/outboards/ ?category=winterstorage#EthanolStorage
onlyawhaler	posted 10-19-2010 09:29 PM ET (US) It has been mentioned above by several posters that upon examination of their gasoline filters, they could find no water. My question is how do you know if there is water or not? These are spin on, throw away like an automotive oil filter. I have looked at mine when removing every spring, tipped them upside down, smelled them, I can't tell. What is inside is absorbed by the filter element, water or gas. Just asking Onlyawhaler
L H G	posted 10-20-2010 12:52 AM ET (US) Pour the entire contents of the filter into a glass jar. If it has separated out some water, you will see it. If it's clean, clear gasoline, just pour it back into the fuel tank!
Bokeefe	posted 10-20-2010 12:26 PM ET (US) I dumped the two 6gal. tanks from my 2009 150 Montauk into my wife's minivan and let the tanks air dry for a couple of days. That's what my dealer told me to do. This is my first winter so I have zero experience to fall back on. Really depressed that it had to be winterized at all! I envy all of you in year round locations!
6992WHALER	posted 10-20-2010 01:46 PM ET (US) I always stored the 23-footer over the winter with a full 180-gallon fuel tank. The engines never ran well in the spring, I even had to use starting fluid a couple of times to get them to start. The bad performance always goes away when I add new gas. Last winter I stored the boat with about 80 gallons in the tank. I topped it off in the spring and she ran great. So I am going to personally store with the tank not full. My 17-footer has 6-gallon tanks. I do store these completely empty or completely full. That engine has never had a problem running on gas stored over the winter. As you can see I store using both rules because my boats have told me how they prefer to be stored.
JMARTIN	posted 10-20-2010 02:39 PM ET (US) Let's play gasoline future trader. If you think the price of gas will be more at the start of boating season next year, fill up now. If you think it will be less, leave the tank as it is. For a reference, here are PNW ballpark gasoline prices for my end of season to start of season for the past couple of years. 10/20/06 $2.52 05/01/07 $3.55 10/20/07 $3.12 05/01/08 $2.79 10/20/08 $2.99 05/01/09 $2.39 10/20/09 $2.76 05/01/10 $3.17 10/20/10 $3.09 05/01/11 $?.?? Since petroleum people like full tanks, I top off in October. Here is how I did. 2007 saved $1.03 2008 lost $0.33 2009 lost $0.60 2010 saved $0.41 I will probably have a loss again, but I am going to fill up. John