posted 02-10-2011 01:59 AM ET (US)        

I am strongly considering a hybrid Silverado or Sierra to get better mileage during everyday driving and am realizing there will be a sacrifice in tow-ability to some degree. The idea of getting 18-20 MPG in a full sized truck really excites me. Since it has a 6 liter V8 it should tow pretty good, it's rated at 5900lbs which is more than what my boat weighs.

posted 02-10-2011 10:37 AM ET (US)            

I do think you need to look for a more efficient vehicle, but not a NEW one. I'd look for a used Silverado/Sierra/F-150 for a reasonable price. The goal is to own it faster than you will with your current setup, and to save some fuel costs along the way. By reasonable, I mean a "just for now" truck that costs $10,000 or so, which you can pay for in a little more than a year making your current payments. This truck need only to have four or five years of reliable life left in it, since you'll only need to own it for that long, and you'll be putting very few miles on it once you read the paragraph below.

Once you OWN the truck and are not making payments, it will take you very little time to save up ~$6,000 to pay cash for a reliable used small sedan that will push your economy figures to 32 MPG or better. I'm thinking 2002 Honda Civic with a stick (or similar). Your truck will be relegated to weekend trips to Home Depot and towing the boat duty...you'll probably put gas in it once every couple months during the non-boating season.

posted 02-10-2011 02:25 PM ET (US)            

I did this by accident and it has worked out great. My wife's car was a 1994 Ford Escort, we purchased her a 2002 Escape, I started to drive the Escort, instead of my pick up. In 2006 I had to replace the pick up. The new 2006 truck gets 14 mpg, but I only use it when I want a truck, you guessed it I am still driving the Escort, it costs me $300 a year to insure and it gets 30 mpg and best of all my 2006 F150 only has 21,000 miles on it.

But on the other hand the best thing to do might be just pay the gas price. The return on gas savings may not justify the expense of the second car. Every 10,000 you drive at 15 MPG ($3 per gallon) will cost you $2000, so at 30MPG you will save only $1000.00

posted 02-10-2011 04:38 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Once you OWN the truck and are not making payments, it will take you very little time to save up ~$6,000 to pay cash for a reliable used small sedan that will push your economy figures to 32 MPG or better. I'm thinking 2002 Honda Civic with a stick (or similar). Your truck will be relegated to weekend trips to Home Depot and towing the boat duty...you'll probably put gas in it once every couple months during the non-boating season.

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Dave, in the past, you and I have disagreed,(in a freindly way), regarding vehicle strategies. BUT in this case, I could not agree with you more. Further, this strategy has the intangible benefit of providing a much better driving experience, during the times you are not driving your truck because you must.

Unless you are like my wife's dad, who when he had to return his free sponsorship truck, [pro bass fisherman], rented a truck, specifically so he take a lady out on a date, while he waited for his next, free sponsorship truck to arrive. It was as if he would be embarrassed NOT to be seen in a truck. Great guy, but damn... just... damn. -----sigh-

-Peter

posted 02-10-2011 05:25 PM ET (US)            

I would hope that by the time you accounted for loan payments,insurance,fuel,maintenance,and depreciation that you could pull the Whaler around for free occasionally. :)

posted 02-10-2011 05:30 PM ET (US)            

RE: Insurance and costs - I agree you will have to run the numbers for your self and the market where you live. But if you OWN the vehicle, there is really only a need for the state minimum coverage - especially if you have health coverage through work and a rider on your homeowner's policy.

We're talking about a $6,000 car, which, if you have an emergency fund of about $3,000 cash in your account, you should be able to replace very quickly in the event of a loss.

Again, my comments are based on the assumption that you don't want or can't afford to pay the $700/month that you're currently paying. Situations change. I recently took a very large pay cut and have had to seriously curtail my normal cash flow habits and it hurts. The house is cold, the pets don't get premium food and I don't buy new clothes as often as I used to...and I probably won't get to do as much boating this summer as I'd like....but there's food on the table, the lights are on and I'm actually reducing the debt load that I foolishly felt comfortable carrying when times weren't as lean.

So yeah, I'm talking a S&!X box car and truck for awhile with basic insurance, then start working your way back up to the nice ride.

Unless you want to continue making payments, or can comfortably afford to do so. God knows the banks can use the profit since they're getting soaked on home foreclosures right now.

...but from the tone of your post, I understood that you were looking to reduce your monthly outflow significantly.

posted 02-10-2011 05:55 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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$50k truck, 15% down at 6% for 72 months = $700 per month.

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If that is the case it should be close to being paid off. I would just try to pay off the current vehicle rather than take on 5/6 more years and I am guess the trade in of your current vehicle. That solution is only short term solution monthly for reducing your expense.

If the payments are too expensive for you currently, you can look into refinancing the loan. I did it with my wife SUV after I was laid off for a while and got job paying about 1/2 of my original salary. Yeah it sucked paying a car for 7 years (originally I had 5 year loan), but its what I had to do at the time to make ends meet at the time. I still have that SUV and its paid off.

quote:

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But if you OWN the vehicle, there is really only a need for the state minimum coverage

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Its seems like its great idea until you have an accident and you have to deal with the other insurance company. In my case it was other persons fault, but the other insurance claimed it was 50-50, so they only paid for half of my totaled car. I was so pissed off when the claim rep was laughing at me, I tried go up the supervisor chain got no where.

I had to sue the other insurance company to get my money, in the end I spent a lot of time to get what I deserved in the first place. I truly lost out and your are at the mercy of the insurance company. I would only drop collosion insurance unless you truly were willing to let a car be a total loss and have no recourse even if it wasn't your fault.

posted 02-11-2011 03:41 AM ET (US)            

Depends on what kind of driving you do. Hybrids shine in shorthaul city driving, but they flatten out HARD in highway driving. In fact, look at the mileage sticker for the Prius. It gets better city mileage than highway. If you are a highway driver, there are other choices that will get you better mileage than a Prius, cost a lot less, and you won't have to face replacing the expensive battery when it won't hold a charge anymore.

Just stuff to consider.

posted 02-11-2011 10:21 AM ET (US)            

My wife drives a Prius. My partners wife drives a diesel VW Bug. They do about the same mix of city and highwat driving, about a 50/50 mix.

The VW Diesel gets better mileage, not to mention better <everything>. Acceleration, handing, etc. It's just a better car.

There are a LOT of options for getting good economy. Hybrid vehicles are more of a political statement than anything, especially when scaled up to anything larger than a go-kart.

For me, a 1999 Suburban and a 1992 Porsche 911 seem to do the trick... ;-).

Total cost? Less than $20K for the pair.

Dave

posted 02-11-2011 12:37 PM ET (US)            

My little car has been hit twice, lady ran a red light and a man backed up into it in a parking lot. I had no trouble with both insurance companies paying for the damage even in a no fault state like MN. (Both times I think they paid me more than the car was worth)

posted 02-11-2011 01:53 PM ET (US)            

Ok then, let's talk about insurance and the Prius. It's laden with all kinds of complex electronics and a hideously expensive battery. Do you think that might have insurance implications for the cost of replacing it in the event of an accident?

Let's also consider liability insurance. The battery is has astoundingly high current output capability and is full of dangerous, heavy metals. Could these things have an effect on the cost of liability insurance? What if someone gets electrocuted by a shorted battery from a collision?

Just food for thought. I don't have any facts about insuring them, because I've never considered owning one... and I am one of those who would rather have a truck and an economy car, than a truck for all occasions.

posted 02-11-2011 03:39 PM ET (US)            

Now the amount you get above the minimum dollar required is up to you, I personally carry what I feel is the right amount for my family plus I have an umbrella under my home owners. My point is that there is no reason for me to put collision insurance on the old car, that I do not really need. If it gets wrecked the truck takes its place until I decide to replace it or not. I figure by not paying the insurance company a premium I am basically self insuring that car.

posted 02-12-2011 01:51 AM ET (US)            

The new-car sticker price for the Prius is high because it is full of seriously expensive stuff that other cars don't have. Same reason filet mignon costs more than Spam. Other compact 4-doors of the same size are $16k. The 268 horsepower Camry is cheaper than the 110hp Prius. There is a reason for that.

If you don't see the difference in hazard potential between a battery that is powerful enough to drive a car, and one that is only used for cranking, I'm not sure what else we can do about that.

posted 02-12-2011 07:56 AM ET (US)            

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/trailering1.jpg

posted 02-12-2011 09:13 AM ET (US)            

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You don't think $23k is high for a 4-door compact? I'm envious of your financial situation. Other compact 4-doors of the same size are $16k. The 268 horsepower Camry is cheaper than the 110hp Prius. There is a reason for that.
The new-car sticker price for the Prius is high because it is full of seriously expensive stuff that other cars don't have. Same reason filet mignon costs more than Spam. Other compact 4-doors of the same size are $16k. The 268 horsepower Camry is cheaper than the 110hp Prius. There is a reason for that.

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My wife and I have look at a Prius at the dealership for her next car (probably going to wait a couple more years). Prius's are bigger than Corolla. Toyota does a lot of option packaging, so I don;'t think you can actually buy V6 Camry for less than Prius, but your pooint is well taken. 4 Cylinder Camry with more HP can be had less and V6's aren't much more.

As for my financial situation. My wife's last 2 cars have been new cars, Her first one was 23K, her last one in 2002 was $30k. Her current vehicle would cost me ~$35k, so when she wants a $25K car that gets good gas mileage I am all for it.

quote:

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If you don't see the difference in hazard potential between a battery that is powerful enough to drive a car, and one that is only used for cranking, I'm not sure what else we can do about that.

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posted 02-12-2011 05:55 PM ET (US)            

Some smaller communities are reported to be weighing the option of not responding in the same way for hybrids, due to training and liability.

For clarification, that means that they'd dispatch EMT's and crews, but they may wait for a county-based Rescue squad if extraction is required using heavy equipment (i.e. "the Jaws of Life"). They'd render first aid and what care they could with the victim still trapped in the car until qualified responders could get there.

I heard this directly from a volunteer fireman who had just undergone the training for extraction using the Jaws of Life in a smaller community outside a medium sized city. He said that the next town over's volunteer squad was putting the training off for another year due to budget constraints, and that his unit would be the one to "cover" for that neighboring town in the event one of these vehicles was in an accident.

Something to consider if you're often in "flyover" country, as those moments can be crucial.

My understanding is that the newer hybrids no longer run the high voltage cables through the roof, etc - they run right down the center of the car, where it's less likely that a fire/rescue person would need to do cutting for an extraction situation. I believe that the new Prius is designed with this feature.

All of that said, I stand by my advice given above.

Regarding insurance - Andy, it depends on the laws in your state, your level of personal wealth accumulation, and the levels and terms of other policies you may have in place.

As with anything, your mileage and situation may vary...but I wasn't talking about liability coverage in any event - I was addressing the high-cost collision coverage which should not really be necessary on a $5,000 - $6,000 car. Chances are, a minor collision is going to cost less than $1,000, which you should have in your emergency fund. If it's much more than that, it likely makes sense to just get a different junker and start over again.

With this method, you're being THE MOST ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY, since you're recycling and extending the use of non-renewable resources, and not supporting the pollution caused by manufacturing and disposing of many of the materials used in modern autos - from the batteries in a Hybrid, to the oil in the plastic. The manufacturing pollution on a used car is already a 'sunk' cost - so all you are adding to the pollution burden is the fuel burned (tune your car to make it as efficient as possible), and the other replacements you might need along the way. I think you'll find that you can burn A LOT of gasoline before approaching the pollution load in just the manufacturing and transport of that new car. Not to mention the $ savings by avoiding the depreciation and higher insurance costs associated with the new car.

posted 02-12-2011 08:52 PM ET (US)            

And yes, cars with enough battery for locomotion are a whole different animal than the others when it comes to dangerous current threat. Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't. Which is clearly why first responders are getting special training.

'denacart, thanks for picking up the slack. I didn't want to hog all the bandwidth explaining current and voltage and all that jazz. I would have been much more long winded, explaining it than you were.