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  Mercury Fourstroke 150 vs Verado

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Author Topic:   Mercury Fourstroke 150 vs Verado
ericflys posted 10-26-2011 04:41 PM ET (US)   Profile for ericflys   Send Email to ericflys  
So... I'm looking at repower for me 1983 Outrage18 and am considering all brands. The best dealer support in my area is from a Merc dealer so I have been leaning in that direction. Right now the Merc dealer has a smokin deal on a Verado 150, basically he would sell me one for the same price as the Fourstroke 150 that is due to arrive in Dec. There is a 55lb difference between the motors, but on the back of my outrage I don't I would notice much difference... Anybody have any thoughts?
Blackduck posted 10-26-2011 04:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Blackduck  Send Email to Blackduck     
The new 150 four stroke sure is appealing to me. The light weight, for a 150 four stroke, would be a big plus on your boat.
jimh posted 10-26-2011 05:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If that deal for the VERADO includes the rigging cost, I would jump on it. The electronic remote throttle and shift of the VERADO is a huge plus.
alfred posted 10-26-2011 07:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for alfred  Send Email to alfred     
Isn't that alot of weight for the 18 Outrage though?
L H G posted 10-26-2011 07:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
No, the weight of an L4 Verado is not a problem for an 18 Outrage. For 25 years now, I have run [610-lbs] on mine, with dual batteries in the stern also:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Outrage%2018/?action=view& current=IMG_0454.jpg

I even think the weight improves the overall ride and handling of the boat. I do think the profile of the L4 Verado is a lot for the boat, however. If it was mine, I would go for the new [here Larry invented an completely new shorthand --jimh] engine instead at this [horsepower] level.

sosmerc posted 10-26-2011 08:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
The new [here sosmerc invented his own shorthand name for the new Mercury engine and was actually a confusing reference to a Yamaha engine--jimh] looks to be a much more basic, simple design with less to go wrong. While "fly by wire" throttle and shift is effortless. It definitely adds complexity and increases the potential for problems. I like the KISS system so my vote would be for the new [unknown model name] Mercury.
WhatKnot posted 10-26-2011 08:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for WhatKnot    
I have a pair of 1999 OptiMax 150-HP engine that are going to need replacing at some point. I would want to see two years of history on the new [invented his own nomenclature for the new Mercury engine--jimh] 150's before I would consider them.
jimh posted 10-26-2011 08:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Gentlemen--Thank you for proving my point. The three of you invented your own made-up model designators for the new Mercury FourStroke 150-HP without remote electronic throttle and shift, without supercharging, and with balance shafts, as distinguishes it from the VERADO, or as I call it, the VERADOSAURUS. In inventing your own names, you have demonstrated my point: Mercury really needs to give this engine a model name or a recognizable shorthand identifier. Thanks again for making my point for me.
Peter posted 10-26-2011 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Having owned two Outrage 18s with near 400 lb 150 HP motors, I wouldn't put a 525 lb outboard on the transom. The only way I would tolerate that much weight on the transom is if it came in the form of twin outboards.

But what you should do to see whether you like the way the Outrage handles with that much weight back there in all kinds of sea conditions is put enough weight (sand bags, for example) in the splash well. That will closely simulate the extra weight that the Verado 150 would put on the transom as compared to the motor you have on there now. I don't think it would be very good in a head sea a single 525 lb outboard.

You should also try it with less but enough weight to simulate the new 150 FourStroke and see how you like that.

L H G posted 10-26-2011 09:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
Jim - I did not make anything up. I just used a little bit of my superior reasoning power, (like I did to figure out how the Mercury-Tohatsu Joint Venture functions) to make a pretty good guess as to how Mercury will designate the engine in service manuals, confidential price books, etc. I'm sorry you missed it. Time will tell if I'm right.
And why treat SOS Merc so poorly?

We already know the engine will be called a 150 EFI FourStoke to the buying public, just like the 75 EFI FourStroke, 90 EFI FourStroke or 115 EFI FourStroke (and just like the 3 Japanese brands also). So there seems to be some consistency there on Mercury's part. These Verado block engines are designated:

75 L4NA
90 L4NA
115 L4NA

So in all probability the new 150 EFI will also be designated the

150 L4NA, to distinguish it from the Verado L4 150

For those who can't figure it out, if it even matters, "L4" means in-line 4 cylinder (seems to make simple sense, just like V6), and "NA" means naturally aspirated (so as not to be confused with the Verado's supercharging).

Now you may not like it as well as Yamaha's "F" for 4-stroke, or Suzuki's "DF" (whatever that means), but that is the convention Mercury seems to be using for Dealer's price lists, manuals, etc. Remember Yamaha, Honda and Suzuki don't have to differentiate between Supercharging like Mercury does. So it should follow for the new 150. Let's wait and see before you delete it this time. It's called Moderator's tolerance for other opinions or information.

sosmerc posted 10-26-2011 11:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
Perhaps we are all jumping the gun. I just visited Merc's website and there is no mention of ANY new FourStroke model.
I am now sitting on pins and needles waiting to see what, if anything they are going to call it :).......as long as it is not Veradosauras I'll be happy!
ericflys posted 10-27-2011 12:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
sosmerc, if you look on the Merc website under press releases, you will find info on it....
sosmerc posted 10-27-2011 01:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
Ok....now I see it. I had been looking under "engines". I would think it would show up there pretty soon now.
Thanks for pointing that out.
jimh posted 10-27-2011 02:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
As far as I can tell Mercury has never used L4NA to designate any engine. I think others made that up to identify the VERADITO engines from the VERADO. I have never seen Mercury use L4NA in any of their literature. Please show me where Mercury uses it.

Without a distinctive model name there is no good way to differentiate one FOURSTROKE from the next FOURSTROKE. As I said earlier, when someone says they have a Mercury FOURSTROKE, the next question becomes, "which one?"

FOURSTROKE, as used by Mercury means:

--an engine built by Yamaha, with either carburetors or port fuel injection, no supercharger, no electronic controls

--an engine built by Tohatsu, with either carburetor or port fuel injection, no supercharger, no electronic controls

--an engine built by Mecury with either carburetors or port fuel injection, no supercharger, no electronic controls, but using the same general power head design as the one that has supercharging and electronic controls

--an engine bult by Mercury with supercharging, fuel injection, and electronic controls

--and engine built by Mercury with supercharging, fuel injection, electronic controls, requires premium grade gasoline fuel, and is for the boater who wants a more refined ride, a more advanced ride, and a more enjoyable ride

and, now adding the new engine

--and engine built by Mercury with port fuel injection, no supercharger, no electronic controls, but with balance shafts and yellow paint on some parts, but not using the same general power head as the other newer models

It would make a lot more sense if these six distinctly different classes of engines were not all described as "FOURSTROKE" models. I do agree that Mercury has differentiated two of those with the identifiers VERADO and PRO, so we have FOURSTROKE VERADO and FOURSTROKE PRO. But we are left with four other distinctly different engines just called FOURSTROKE engines (as a model name, not as four-cycle engines), and all of them naturally aspirated. It is very confusing and very hard to track.

ericflys posted 10-27-2011 02:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for ericflys  Send Email to ericflys     
Just to pour fuel on your fire Jim, I think you mean Verado Pro FourStroke, the new "pro" models are still Verados and say so on the cowling.
jimh posted 10-27-2011 02:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Eric--but Mercury calls them FOURSTROKE PRO engines in their literature. They do not all them FOURSTROKE VERADO PRO or FOURSTOKE PRO VERADO.
jimh posted 10-27-2011 03:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I'd be glad to use simple identifiers and names for Mercury engines, exactly as I do for all the other brands, for example a Yamaha F150, a Suzuki DF150, a Honda BF150, and Evinrude E-TEC 150, and so on.

The only purpose of my nomenclature of VERADITO was to differentiate from other previous models of "FOURSTROKE" and to clearly show the lineage to VERADO.

My initial suggestion of VERADOSAURUS for the new engine was to differentiate from VERADITO. The notion was that in the evolutionary timespan, the VERADOSAURUS, even though it was introduced last, was actually from an earlier age or period or evolution of the outboard engine. The basis for that is fairly clear: once you introduce real innovation into outboard engines as Mercury did with their VERADO and its electronic remote controls and forced-air induction, you cannot suggest that removing electronic remote controls and forced-air induction is a step forward in evolutionary time. It is clearly a step backwards in evolution, or de-evolution. That is the basis for the dinosaur-like name for the engine. We're back to the Jurassic Era of outboard engines. In my name scheme the pedigree and structure of the product line is much clearer:

FOURSTROKE means an engine Mercury buys from someone else, using someone else's technology.

Engines with Mercury technology get special names:

VERADO means an advanced engine with special features.

VERADITO means a petite or smaller or diminutive engine based on the VERADO

VERADOSAURUS means an engine whose technology or features are from an earlier evolutionary period than the VERADO.

Also, I have figured out what Mercury means with "PRO" as a model name. PRO is a bit confusing because many think it is an abbreviation for "professional," but that is not the case. PRO is really an acronym for Premium-grade fuel Required to Operate.

boatdryver posted 10-27-2011 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for boatdryver  Send Email to boatdryver     
Getting back to ericflys original question, his repower options are pretty interesting.

That the dealer is willing to sell a Verado 150 for the same price as a new mystery L4NA Veradosaurus may mean the dealer believes the future 150 HP repower market for Mercury will be slanted toward the new model.

I have a 175 HP Verado (essentially the same as a 150 HP) which is nearing the end of its warranty. I only have this motor because it was mounted on the transom of the new Whaler I wanted. The motor and especially its DTS controls have been truly wonderful and I've had no worries as long as the warranty has been in effect.

When the Verado goes out of warranty I won't sleep quite as soundly because of the supercharger and DTS controls, and I will wish I had a normally aspirated motor with manual controls, just like the Veradosaurus, which can be serviced by any technician at any dealership.

But, the Veradosaurus will be new to the market and it will take 2 or 3 years to develop its record of reliability.

If the Veradosaurus had been out for 3 years and I were repowering a boat which I planned to keep "forever", I'd go for manual controls and no supercharger.

Otherwise, I think its a tossup provided the Verado 150 price includes the DTS controls.

JimL

onlyawhaler posted 10-27-2011 11:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for onlyawhaler  Send Email to onlyawhaler     
I am impressed with the early news on the new Merc 150.
It seems simplier and reasonable in its weight.

Time and further testing will tell alot.

I have had two Outrage 18s and repowered one of them. Great boat, but sensitive to transom weight.

Even a Johnson 150 two stroke with a Yamaha T8 four stroke on the back made a noticable difference and it wasn't for the better.

Stay lighter vs heavier in your repower decisions in whatever brand you choose

Sterling
Onlyawhaler

jimh posted 10-27-2011 12:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Sorry about the sidebar, but once people began to invent new names or shorthand legends for the new motor, it seemed worthwhile to follow up on their newly introduced topic. Let's get back to the initial question.

As presented here, it looks like the actual selling price for the three tiers of engine in the 150-HP model in Mercury's very large line of motors has already begun to shrink. As Mercury described it initially the three motors would sell at three tiers of prices, which I list below from highest to lowest:

--Verado, most expensive, most features, most performance

--Veradosaurus (or the new motor,) less expensive, fewer features, perhaps same performance (to be determined)

--OptiMax least expensive, different technology completely, but very strong performance

It looks like Mercury's dealers are already collapsing the three-tier price structure into a two-tier model:

--Verado or Veradosaurus, take your pick, same price, and

--OptiMax, a bit less expensive that the other two

It is hard to judge if this particular instance here will be reflected in the overall market. However, if the overall market goes in this direction, it will be tough for Mercury to maintain the VERADO 150-HP engine as a viable product. The cost to manufacture the VERADO has already been a concern relative to its price point, leading to low margins. If the VERADO 150-HP has to be further undersold to maintain market share with its brother the VERADOSAURUS, the profit margin may be further eroded. I mentioned in my initial comments about the VERADOSAURUS that I expected it to cut into sales of the VERADO.

L H G posted 10-27-2011 02:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
Jim says:

"As far as I can tell Mercury has never used L4NA to designate any engine. I think others made that up to identify the VERADITO engines from the VERADO. I have never seen Mercury use L4NA in any of their literature. Please show me where Mercury uses it."

Larry says see Boston Whaler Montauk 190 Performance Report with Mercury 115 L4NA engine:

http://www.bostonwhaler.com/boat_graphics/eprowebsitemedia/2904/ EnginePerformance/268455_EnginePerf.pdf

I doubt if Boston Whaler can be accused of making this up, since they seem to have a pretty reliable relationship to Mercury.

jimh posted 10-27-2011 02:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Boston Whaler made that up. They were in the same situation we are in: Mercury did not have a good shorthand name, and one needs to be invented. I don't feel bound by Whaler's invention of this name. As I said, it fails to describe anything particularly unique about the model.
cbone posted 10-27-2011 04:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for cbone  Send Email to cbone     
WRONG! Mercury created that name and uses it regularly. It was not created by Boston Whaler. It can be seen all over to describe parts. It is not uses in marketing because Mercury uses the proper name for this engine.

Look up 897148A08 in Mercury Parts Express and you will see what comes up. L4NA!

Mercury has done this since day one with the L6.

cbone posted 10-27-2011 04:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for cbone  Send Email to cbone     
[Changed topic. Please contact the moderator by email for this topic. If you read your email you would not be raising this topic.--jimh]
jimh posted 10-28-2011 09:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
cbone recommends:

"Look up 897148A08 in Mercury Parts Express..."

I don't think that 897148A08 is a good model name for the new engine. I am also at a loss how I would possibly have learned that I should go to a certain website, search on the string 897148A08, and by doing so I would then learn the proper shorthand identifier for the new engine. This seems like a preposterous method for the public to learn the shorthand identifier for the engine.

Why can't Mercury just tell me in their press release that 897148A08 is the new shorthand identifier?

I don't plan on using 897148A08 as an identifier for the VERADOSAURUS.

cbone posted 10-28-2011 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for cbone  Send Email to cbone     
Funny.


L4NA was never meant to be a public shorthand name as it has a proper name which you simply refuse to use. Only one or two people in the world feel that outboards need a specific name and a shorthand version.

I was just correcting your mistake when you said "Boston Whaler made it up" as it did not. Boston Whaler got it from the sales code.

[Restarted new topic. You have been suspended from posting until you contact me via email with a real email address--jimh]

jimh posted 10-28-2011 03:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please note: if you expect to receive notices from me you will will have to:

--provide a real email address
--make that email address publicly accessible; I don't have time to dig up hidden email addresses if I want to communicate with a user, and I am not a mind reader that knows when you decide to change your email address.

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