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Author Topic:   Whale Harassment

WT posted 11-03-2011 10:07 AM ET (US)
I did not know that we can get fined $2500 for whale harassment while boating along our Northern California coastline. :-)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/Misc/Whale.gif
Warren
dfmcintyre posted 11-03-2011 11:56 AM ET (US)
Interesting. Gail and I, along with another couple traveled up the St. Lawrence to a small town called Tadoussac. While there we went out on a large rubber boat tour for a few hours. Whale watching was the best, and the guide pointed out that a boat couldn't follow or "harass" the pod. What the captains do is to figure out the direction of the pod, go well ahead of it, and shut down. Pod will surface, sometime within yards of the boat, sometimes go underneath it.
Evidently that's ok.
Regards - Don
Tohsgib posted 11-03-2011 01:30 PM ET (US)
The only whale harassment we get in FL is at Wal-Mart. They come in pods on their scooters. Sometimes you have to block their way in order to survive. During holidays I have seen people actually push them out of the way....but they keep coming...and coming....
leadsled posted 11-03-2011 01:43 PM ET (US)
Whale watching in Massachusetts is big business. They have to go out to Stellwagen Bank which is at least 15 miles out. They use these huge high speed cat boats that travel at least 30 knots. A few years back one of them hit a whale and killed it on the way out to the bank. And recently the NOAA catamaran which studies whales hit one and wounded it an then followed it around to make sure it was alright. They of course were not found at fault. If you or me did that we might be in trouble. In our area they broadcast over the NOAA weather radio where whales have been spotted recently and the warn us not to go over a certain speed and not to approach whales closer than 500 ft or is it 1000 ft.
Tom W Clark posted 11-03-2011 01:47 PM ET (US)
Anticipating a Whale's movement and running ahead to a spot near where you think it will surface is now illegal in Washington State.
I think Warren was being facetious and his point was to show that remarkable photo. It appeared in the papers a few days ago.
Tohsgib posted 11-03-2011 02:18 PM ET (US)
I like Turtles!
jimp posted 11-03-2011 02:39 PM ET (US)
Around Juneau, Alaska whale watching is a popular past time and with close to 900,000 cruise ship visitors each year, the whale watching tours are busy.
The humpbacks feed in the pretty much the same locations everyday. And everyday the tour boats run over to those areas and observe - and they DO try to observe the correct distance away from the whales. Sometimes they shut down engines, other times idle. Sometimes they heave-to ahead of the whales (that do change direction every once in a while and are somewhat unpredicable). Sometimes the whales surface nearby, other times not. Sometimes they heave-to alongside or behind the whales and sometimes the whales surface nearby or not.
The folks trolling for salmon fish where the salmon are. Last summer, south of Shelter Island (near Juneau) dozens of boats were trolling and the whales came over within yards of some of the boats trolling and did their thing.
The whales know where the boats are, they aren't stupid, and they don't seem to mind. People fish, people watch, and the whales hangout, play, and feed. No one gets upset.
And yes, obviously there are some jerks out there.
dscew posted 11-03-2011 03:14 PM ET (US)
I just watched an online video of the lunge that is referenced above. Amazing; that was a huge humpback.
lizard posted 11-03-2011 03:34 PM ET (US)
Dscew- I think the video you might be referring to is from an encounter off of Santa Cruz yesterday. Warren's photo is a few days earlier I believe.
Here is the link to the video:
http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/30915/lunging+humpback+whale+nearly+ swallows+up+surfer+kayaker/
kwik_wurk posted 11-03-2011 05:01 PM ET (US)
Wonder if there is a rule about being an arms-length away on the beach.
This happened a few days ago on Vashon Island, WA. Not to bad for a Friday afternoon jaunt down to the beach. I motor (or sail) by this point about 50 times a summer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=006tyLGOzGY
(And I suggest not moving out here, Washington is almost full, it rains a ton, and real whalers are hard to come by...)
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-03-2011 05:13 PM ET (US)
Lizard, that video was shot off Monterey, not Santa Cruz.
It's clearly Monterey Wharf 2 in the background.

Chuck
lizard posted 11-03-2011 07:14 PM ET (US)
Chuck- you are likely correct. If you click on the link to the video, the article clearly says near Santa Cruz. I thought Santa Cruz and Monterey were 40-50 miles apart.
contender posted 11-03-2011 07:14 PM ET (US)
I heard dolphins are treated the same way, they are protected as well....
WT: I kinda have to laugh at the fines for the harassment of Whalers/Dolphins...what do they do with the money send the whalers to see a psychiatrist to see if their feelings were hurt? And what determines what is harassment?, sitting in a kayak watching the whalers?....
andygere posted 11-03-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)
Warren, a number of people were fined this week in Santa Cruz for approaching the Whales. Although many folks observed the 100 yards law, others did not. I do know of some folks who were watching from the prescribed distance only to find the whales surfacing right next them. Considering the vigor of the feeding, and the many days the whales hung out just outside the harbor, it seems like they didn't mind or notice the attention.
Kanawha1 posted 11-03-2011 08:01 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib:
You nailed it. I always refer to them as "The Scooter People"; pull up to the local convenience store on their scooter, buy some booze and smokes and scoot off!

Sorry....
lizard posted 11-03-2011 10:47 PM ET (US)
Hmmm, Contender, perhaps you should read up on the consequences of intended or unintended whale encounters with humans. The fines are there to discourage contact and protect the whales.
I am guessing that you do not live close to whale migratory grounds or you might not pose those questions.
Markbg posted 11-04-2011 08:37 AM ET (US)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/Misc/Whale.gif
Now, that is scary.
gnr posted 11-04-2011 10:34 AM ET (US)
I don't know Lizzy.
Contender has some valid questions?
The whales clearly don't mind the attention and even seem to be curious enough to approach.
Can you explain to the this poor uneducated hillbilly how drifting to close to a whale A: harms the whale and B: is worthy of a 35K fine?
Can you provide a significant number of examples to support the resources that go into the drafting and enforcement of this policy? Please note the word significant in the preceding sentence.
And what do they do with that money?
LOL
Tohsgib posted 11-04-2011 10:36 AM ET (US)
Who ya gonna call? WHALEBUSTERS!
If there's anchovy food in your neighborhood....who ya gonna call? WHALEBUSTERS! If you touch that fish...your gonna have to dish...up to $32grand...WHALEBUSTERS! If your boat gets stuck, don't call that schmuck....who ya gonna call? WHALEBUSTERS! If you think I'm Ray Parker...don't call Bob Barker....who ya gonna call? WHALEBUSTERS!
Tohsgib posted 11-04-2011 10:41 AM ET (US)
Can you POSSIBLY tell me what a woman on a surfboard can POSSIBLY do to harm a 40 TON animal(80,000lbs)? Who would want to touch one with all those barnacles anyway? These people should be more worried about the sharks eating the anchovy scraps.
Get back to work and leave those idiots in California alone. Arnold is just trying to raise some $$ for his divorce lawyer & child support.
Tohsgib posted 11-04-2011 10:43 AM ET (US)
Lastly...why are the Japanese running around the middle of the ocean looking for whales, they could just buy a Pier Pass.
Chuck Tribolet posted 11-04-2011 01:48 PM ET (US)
Upon looking at the video several more times, I've decided
that it is indeed Santa Cruz and not Monterey in the background.

Chuck
Chriscz posted 11-05-2011 10:30 AM ET (US)
As most of you probably know, there are two Federal laws protecting marine mammals both with civil and criminal penalties if they are violated ($500,000 and jail time depending on what you do). The Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA) covers most marine mammals (~130 species) and the Endangered Species Act (ESA) covers species whose populations are threatened or endangered and on a trajectory towards extinction (this includes fewer species like humpback whales, killer whales, blue whales, etc.). Both of these Acts define what is prohibited fairly broadly including harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture or collect, or attempt to engage in any such activity. Harm is further defined as significantly imparting essential behavior such as breeding and feeding.
The examples others have given about whether or not simply kayaking or drifting among marine mammals is a problem is valid. Unfortunately, like many laws, the bad behavior of others ruins it for the rest of us. With respect to what actually "harms" marine mammals, it is highly dependent on the species in question. Here in the Pacific Northwest, Killer Whales were recently listed as endangered under ESA, with vessel interactions as one of the causes of their decline. For species with incredible acoustic abilities and a reliance on communication for feeding strategies, it's pretty easy to understand how a bunch of boats zipping around to see them or even just racing to get in front of them could interrupt underwater communication and prey echo location. Unfortunatly boat engines are loud underwater and sound travels great distances. Couple the human disturbance with reduced prey availability , accumulations of toxins in their systems leading to immunodeficiencies and disease and you have some real problems for the species.
NMFS puts out guidelines by region for appropriate viewing http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/mammals/#moreinfo
Chriscz posted 11-05-2011 11:18 AM ET (US)
Wrong link, here is the correct one
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/education/viewing.htm
lizard posted 11-05-2011 02:57 PM ET (US)
Thanks for posting that information Chriscz. I know that spectator whale watching has been documented to interfere with breeding activities.
contender posted 11-05-2011 04:45 PM ET (US)
Lizard: There are some places in South Fla, (and I know of one in South Carolina) that the dolphins swim up to you. No food, no calling them, and they are not in the area when you enter the water, they are just curious and want to see. So now I'm in violation of hurting/harming an endangered species? As far as California goes I think the whale watching boats probably do more harm than the paddle board people. And no there are not to many Whales around here, but I have seen a boat named the Pequod...
Tohsgib; Good one with Whalebusters/Pier Pass
Chriscz posted 11-05-2011 06:27 PM ET (US)
Contender. In your example you would not be in violation of either law.
And even better, the east coast dolphins are not endangered. Those experiences are a good example of why it's nice to keep some of these species around. Being out on our whalers and seeing marine mammals close up is one of the benefits this group of owners shares, just leave the harpoon at home.......now of course some rods and tackle, well that's a whole different story and another benefit of owning a whaler......tasty salmon etc.
Tohsgib posted 11-05-2011 11:12 PM ET (US)
Chriscz......Wait till Jimmy Buffet screws up your boating area! Yee haw doing 6mph for 5 years until he "figured out" what to do. Don't EVEN get me started!
Chriscz posted 11-06-2011 12:45 AM ET (US)
Lost me on that one toshgib, but don't get me wrong, just because I know about the regs doesn't mean I agree with them all or don't understand how absurd they can become.
contender posted 11-06-2011 10:01 AM ET (US)
Buffet? what happened?
Tohsgib posted 11-06-2011 10:06 AM ET (US)
Jimmy Buffet campaigned for the Manatees, changes the whole situation over here with slow speed zones.
conch posted 11-06-2011 10:33 AM ET (US)
I don't think the local dolphins,manatee,and iguana mind much.
I have taken guests to the same dolphin pod at sunset for over a decade.
The challenge is can I attach a picture link?
http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/conch1/
maybe someone can correct this. Video from my 15 Sport.
Chuck
lizard posted 11-06-2011 11:34 AM ET (US)
http://www.savethemanatee.org/myths.htm
84 Manatee deaths in 2010 from collisions with watercraft in FLA.
conch posted 11-06-2011 11:40 AM ET (US)
Sorry to hear that Lizard,but what is your point?
Chuck
jimh posted 11-06-2011 11:41 AM ET (US)

quote:
http://www.savethemanatee.org/myths.htm
84 Manatee deaths in 2010 from collisions with watercraft in FLA.
I could not find any information to support that statistic in the cited reference.
Tohsgib posted 11-06-2011 11:49 AM ET (US)
I highly doubt 84 as we have only had 1 in the Tampa Bay area this year I believe. In Manatee County there have only been like 10 since 1973 or so when they started talking poles. They are not endangered and they are not indigenous and nobody wants them harmed. When NONE have ever been killed on the Mantee river, why mess with my stuff Jimmy?
lizard posted 11-06-2011 11:56 AM ET (US)
I kind of doubt they are lying:
http://www.savethemanatee.org/mortality_rescue_2-11.pdf
http://www.savethemanatee.org/mort.htm
jimh posted 11-06-2011 12:04 PM ET (US)
I could not find any mention of 84 deaths of Manatees in any of those cited references, either. Is this some sort of game where we are supposed to hunt down the actual reference that supports the figure of 84 deaths of manatee in Florida due to collisions with boats?
Or was the figure 84 supposed to be part of the myths?
lizard posted 11-06-2011 12:22 PM ET (US)
JimH- the second link I posted, that is a pdf file, takes you to the pie chart, for manatee mortalities for 2010. It lists a total of 767. Of those, it attributes 11% to watercraft. It is the little red section of the pie.
I doubt it is myth and my link is not the initiation of a game, or for that matter, a controversy.
When I do it the old pen and paper way, I still come up with 84+/-. Math of this sort really isn't tricky. "By the end of the fourth grade most students should have an automatic recall of all the basic multiplication facts and be familiar with the basic division facts. Multiplication and division facts are reinforced at the beginning of fifth grade."
I am unclear as to why this post seems to have whipped people into tones of sarcasm and agitation. Toshgib introduced it, and I simply put the facts out in response to the post. Relax folks, its Sunday, football is on, chowder is on the stove and life is great.
jimh posted 11-06-2011 12:41 PM ET (US)
Lizard--If you want to cite statistical data, you should explain that the data you cite is not actually presented in the material you cited, but that you made an inference or imputed the data yourself from the material you cited.
You have given three citations for your statement, "84 Manatee deaths in 2010 from collisions with watercraft in FLA," but none of the references you cited actually say that. You are making an inference from the data contained, apparently, in only one of those cited references, and then only in a graphic, not in any text.
As I understand it, any boater who kills a manatee is subject to substantial fines, penalties, and perhaps imprisionment. It seems hard to reconcile that 84 manatees were killed by boaters in 2010, and yet we don't seem to hear much about any fines, penalties, or imprisionments. As I recall, I have only heard of one boater against whom there was some action taken. If 84 manatee are killed annually, that would be about one every four or five days. You'd think there would be more coverage of this slaughter.
jimh posted 11-06-2011 12:55 PM ET (US)
Lizard--Please give the source for your unattributed quotation regarding math skills. I don't think there is any particular dispute about math skills in this discussion.
There is quite a difference between 84 and 1, which is the discrepancy between your presentation of the number of manatee deaths from boaters in Florida and Nick's. And, yes, I employed subtraction to get that answer.
lizard posted 11-06-2011 12:57 PM ET (US)
From the Florida Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Conservation, cited as the reference in my links:
http://myfwc.com/media/1329325/ 2010_cumulative_category_summary12oct2011.pdf
Sorry, I guess I was off, by one. The total attributed to watercraft was 83. My bad.
I am going to guess that many of these watercraft strikes don't result in arrest either because someone does not know they hit it, or they did not report that this hit it. I want to call out, this is a "guess" and not any scientific analysis I was hired to conduct :)
In research presentations, raw numbers and percentages are often used interchangeably, or side-by-side, and the audience is aware of this. (federal trauma statistics, public health statistics, adverse drug reactions in drug trials statistics, etc.) My apologies to the readers who are unfamiliar with this.
The data I cited is supported in the links and footnotes associated with the links I posted. They take you to the above actual raw numbers, one only needs to pursue the links.
jimh posted 11-06-2011 01:08 PM ET (US)
Lizard--Thank you for finally posting a link to some primary material that supports your initial statement. It was a rather complicated path from your original citation to this actual source, and I am glad you were able to track it down.
lizard posted 11-06-2011 01:15 PM ET (US)
JimH- Your apology is accepted!
Finally, if you REALLY need it, just to keep it in your neck of the woods:
http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/parents/faq
It is a shame that the Lions have a bye today, I think it is going to be a L-O-N-G day on CW! Go Patriots.
Oh, and BTW, I think what is happening with the Lions this year is a great thing for the people of Michigan. Its about time there is a feel good reason.
jimh posted 11-06-2011 01:42 PM ET (US)
Lizard says: "JimH- Your apology is accepted!"
None was offered. I think you are making another unjustified inference.
:-)
conch posted 11-06-2011 02:26 PM ET (US)
And more Manatees
http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/conch1/ manatees%20in%20the%20yard/?albumview=slideshow
Chuck
conch posted 11-06-2011 02:36 PM ET (US)
Hey I'm UBBing with you big boys now.
I can finally put up some pictures YEAH!
Chuck
conch posted 11-06-2011 03:05 PM ET (US)
Has anyone else heard that manatee taste like chicken if U BB que them?
Chuck
Tohsgib posted 11-06-2011 08:15 PM ET (US)
Are you SURE that is for 2010 fiscal year or TOTAL. If 700+ SeaCows die every year they would be EXTINCT.
WT posted 11-06-2011 09:11 PM ET (US)
Perhaps we should heat the ICW so the manatees do not get "cold stress".
Harassment and now "cold stress". :-)
Warren
WT posted 11-06-2011 09:12 PM ET (US)
http://ameliaislandliving.com/fernandinabeach/2011/01/ 767-florida-manatee-deaths-in-2010-double-recent-years/
lizard posted 11-06-2011 09:59 PM ET (US)
I am not sure, but your commissioned state officials seem to be, Toshgib.
Here are the stats for 2009:
http://myfwc.com/media/200205/2009_Cumulative_Category_Summary23Mar2010. pdf
For Manatee County, 1986-present, 40 watercraft attributed deaths:
http://research.myfwc.com/manatees/search_summary_results.asp?c=Manatee& txt_description1=Watercraft&txt_description2=Gate%2FLock& txt_description3=Human%2C+Other&txt_description4=Perinatal& txt_description5=Cold+stress&txt_description6=Natural& txt_description7=Undetermined&d=1&m=&mn1=January%3C&mn2=February%3C& mn3=March%3C&mn4=April%3C&mn5=May%3C&mn6=June%3C&mn7=July%3C& mn8=August%3C&mn9=September%3C&mn10=October%3C&mn11=November%3C& mn12=December%3C&y=&bln_standardOutput=1&btn_submit=Search
For Tampa (Hillsborough County) 1978-present, 69 watercraft attributed deaths:
http://research.myfwc.com/manatees/search_summary_results. asp?c=Hillsborough&txt_description1=Watercraft& txt_description2=Gate%2FLock&txt_description3=Human%2C+Other& txt_description4=Perinatal&txt_description5=Cold+stress& txt_description6=Natural&txt_description7=Undetermined&d=1&m=& mn1=January%3C&mn2=February%3C&mn3=March%3C&mn4=April%3C&mn5=May%3C& mn6=June%3C&mn7=July%3C&mn8=August%3C&mn9=September%3C&mn10=October%3C& mn11=November%3C&mn12=December%3C&y=&bln_standardOutput=1& btn_submit=Search
I think it is safe to say that watercraft, amongst other variables, are taking out concerning numbers of manatees.
I think the onus is on us, as the supposed superior species in the food chain, to take action(s) to ensure the existence of nature and its creatures. BTW, Manatees are on the endangered list.
lizard posted 11-06-2011 10:04 PM ET (US)
Hmm, not sure what happened with that 2009 link. But here is a link to support their endangerment:
http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/manatee/
We'll try 2009 again, where the watercraft number is apparently 97:
http://myfwc.com/media/200205/2009_Cumulative_Category_Summary23Mar2010. pdf
conch posted 11-07-2011 09:23 AM ET (US)
"Early European explorers and settlers used manatees for food, too. During the time of the Florida plantations with their large sugar cane fields, manatees were caught and used as food for the slaves that worked on the plantations. Even as late as the 1960's manatee meat could be found on the menus of local restaurants."
"The Marine Mammal Act was a law that was passed in 1972 to protect marine mammals from hunting. Marine mammals included seals, sea lions, whales, dolphins, porpoises, sea otters, and, of course, manatees"
www.theoceanadventure.com/FMIE/FM13.html
Chuck
Chriscz posted 11-07-2011 10:02 AM ET (US)
There is quite a bit of additional information at the USFWS site as well.
http://www.fws.gov/northflorida/Manatee/manatees.htm
They are the Federal agency responsible for listing under ESA and charged with implementing a recovery plan.
Here is a FAQ link
http://www.fws.gov/northflorida/Manatee/2007%205-yr%20Review/ FAQs-final-5-year-review-040907.htm
which gives some interesting facts, even suggesting manatees are on a better population trajectory and a recommendation the change the manatee's ESA status from "endangered" to "threatened".
Lizard, you will appreciate the answer to Q 21. Others might like the answer to Q23.
Of course all this info is somewhat dated and even the recovery plan is 21 years old.
leadsled posted 11-07-2011 10:19 AM ET (US)
PETA= People eating tasty animals.
jimh posted 11-07-2011 12:02 PM ET (US)
Tastes change over time. Consider the lobster:
"In colonial times, lobsters were considered 'poverty food.' They were harvested from tidal pools and served to children, to prisoners, and to indentured servants..."
http://www.gma.org/lobsters/allaboutlobsters/lobsterhistory.html
Tohsgib posted 11-07-2011 12:11 PM ET (US)
I guess after 20% of the population froze to death in 2010 they were put back on. They were down to threatened.
Again I don't have a problem with Sea Cows, neither does anyone else but it is not powerboats that are their problem. They move a LOT faster than you think. Lastly just because a dead Manatee was found in a certain area does not mean it was killed there.
conch posted 11-07-2011 03:20 PM ET (US)
Lobsters, sure we have them in the backyard too.
Caught snorkling from our 15 Sport
http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/conch1/lobsters/
Chuck
lizard posted 11-07-2011 03:43 PM ET (US)
I am rather certain, that a veterinary necropsy can definitively determine death by infection, cold shock or a propeller hit. I also find it implausible that there is any value, by Wildlife specialists, to misrepresent where the manatees are dying.
Watercraft are clearly not the only threat to Manatees, but watercraft are responsible, by data, for 11% last year alone, which statisticians call "statistically significant".
People used to harvest turtles and conch in the U.S., no longer allowed. The world population just passed 7 billion. Poor old mother earth, nature and its creatures, are suffering. Sophomoric commentary about PETA, serving manatees at the turn of the century, etc. are distractions from the real issues. I find it puzzling that "real issues" cause so much dissension on this site. Shouldn't we all be concerned?
conch posted 11-07-2011 03:50 PM ET (US)
Grilled Manatee steak in the 1960s is not the turn of the century,sorry.
Lizard stop hugging that tree I need more wood for the smoker.
Chuck
gnr posted 11-07-2011 04:01 PM ET (US)
Hey Lizzy,
I've decided to donate my entire 2012 budgeted amount for donations to either save the manatees from "cold stress" or to save the planet from global warming.

Can you help me decide which cause could more benefit from my donation?

Just a thought. If you changed your screen name to "Sea Cow" every time you posted someone would be reminded of the plight of the manatee. Could help. I'm sure jimh would help you make it happen.
:-)
elaelap posted 11-07-2011 04:31 PM ET (US)
Charming, gnr. What passes as wit for you is the stuff that is scrawled on bathroom walls.
Enough of the 'manatee tastes like chicken' comments as well...it's so ignorant, so last century, so very, very tiresome. Grow up or sell your watercraft and take up NASCAR racing as a spectator, and please get real close and breathe deeply as you watch. Whatever you do, get the hell off MY ocean.
Tony
dscew posted 11-07-2011 04:39 PM ET (US)
Lizard, mother earth's creatures are suffering, but mother earth is fine. When humans become extinct through their present actions, which will happen, mother earth will go on her merry way. Even nuclear waste will not have a long term effect on earth. Human presence will have been but a blip on the radar, an almost imperceptible one in the scheme of things. No matter what anyone thinks, we're smaller than specks. Cheers!
gnr posted 11-07-2011 04:44 PM ET (US)
LOL
HE HAS SPOKEN!!!!!!!
lol
contender posted 11-07-2011 05:30 PM ET (US)
Conch: If you recall stone crabs were in the same boat as lobsters, no one would eat them, Until a small fisherman back around 1909 tried cooking them...Hence Joe's Stone Crab's on South Miami Beach... The place now takes up 2 city blocks with restaurants in Las Vegas and Chicago (I think).
conch posted 11-07-2011 06:03 PM ET (US)
Tony if "tastes like chicken" sends me by your thoughts to the NASCAR races to drink beer and belch out loud, then does saying "a lawyer with a briefcase can always steal more than a man with a gun" send me to the Miami boat show with a Mojito and a line of coke?
What must Contender and I say to be sent to Joes Stone Crab?
Just wondering
Chuck
elaelap posted 11-07-2011 07:02 PM ET (US)
I meant to say outhouse walls so gnr could relate.
Yeah, I'm a lawyer, Conch, and have been for a couple of decades. We don't all practice law in the same fashion, or didn't you know?
Tony
conch posted 11-07-2011 08:24 PM ET (US)
Tony yes I do know. But I sure don't know about your MY ocean?
Remember your rights end where mine begin.
Left coast folks a little grumpy today? Maybe the time change?
Don't let history disrupt your version of the life of marine mammals on MY island.
No one is disturbing them,we are only taking photos.
Ever tried pickled sea turtle flipper? I like it, you don't have to. Just keep an open mind to the customs of others you may be unfamiliar with.
Chuck

lizard posted 11-07-2011 09:54 PM ET (US)
To Conch- who said:
"No one is disturbing them, we are only taking photos."
Here are the stats from Monroe County, where you apparently live, (based on your retired email account with Monroe County Sheriffs Office), from 1982 through the present:
[I deleted a ridiculously long URL that ruined the text wrap and made this thread unreadable--jimh]
42 Manatee deaths in Monroe related to watercraft. Sounds like a bit more than "takin' pictures".
Does your former employer actually endorse the commentary you make here, utilizing their email account? I wonder what they think about all of your "pull my finger" caliber commentary provided in this thread? Or your "mojito and line of coke" suggestions?
lizard posted 11-07-2011 10:02 PM ET (US)
LINK (visit at youri own risk--jimh]
jimh posted 11-07-2011 10:26 PM ET (US)
Liz'--I don't think you made it very clear that the figure given (42) was a cumulative total from many years of record keeping.
Remember there are three degrees of deception: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Tohsgib posted 11-07-2011 11:15 PM ET (US)
Lizard I am starting to think I "used" to like you. People from CT(I lived there 4 years) should just shut the F^*k up and mind their own business about shit they don't know about. I don't chime in about the Asian Carp to the mid-westerners and I don't talk about taxes in CT. I hope in the future you keep to your own grounds unless you "truly" know what is going on. We have enough lemmings on this site. Sorry to be harsh but you really don't know shit except what you read on the web...woopee!
lizard posted 11-08-2011 12:34 AM ET (US)
Well, that is very interesting, because a post I put in, CLEARLY CALLED OUT, it was between 1982 and the present.
Somehow, the moderator chooses to represent that my link is something that you should "visit at your own risk" for unclear reasons. Specifically, my link is not to a PETA blog, etc. but a FLA government website tracking manatee issues.
The moderator has made repeated points to SUGGEST I am manipulating data, rather than just reading the data for what it is. DATA. Collected and compiled by someone other than me, in a state, by agencies, in which I do not live.
He suggests that I have provided deception and lies, yet can not provide ONE CREDIBLE citation to support this. Where I have provided innumerate links to credible citations.
Here is my closing comment for this evening:
What, about the documented truth, is so threatening to you all? The non-believers, what do you want us to believe? That the deaths did not occur, not for the reasons cited? No in the location attributed?
REALLY?
gnr posted 11-08-2011 08:07 AM ET (US)
Lol. Ol' Tony shows all his true colors as vividly as he ever has in this thread. He and his reptilian house pet wonder why "their kind" carry the reputation of elitism and ignorant arrogance they do.
You're welcome to share MY planet,lol. I sincerely hope that we meet face to face someday. Trust me old pal. That idea is not as farfetched as it probably seems to a naive old hippy like you.
conch posted 11-08-2011 08:24 AM ET (US)
Lizard I stand behind my opinions,but you knew I would.
Is there anything I can say or do to help you understand?

I certainly hope so.
This a Whaler site and I am showing pictures I took from my Whaler.So don't get in a wad with me.
And who else you want to whine to, my 96 year old mother?
If you wanted my job, your 42 years too late, and would need to grow a set.
Whats next to post a picture of Key Deer or reef Coral?
Chuck
Menemsha69 posted 11-08-2011 09:18 AM ET (US)
This thread was originally about Whale Harassment, and "evolved" into a discussion about manatees and other marine mammals. I worked as a marine mammal trainer at Seaworld of Florida, many years ago. Ocassionally we would be enlisted to assist in manatee rescue missions. If you've ever seen the scars left on these animals, due to their inability to get out of the way of a boat cruising at 30 miles an hour, you'd probably agree that something should be done to prevent it!
I'm not a tree hugger, I am an avid fisherman, who appreciates wildlife and agrees with protecting those creatures that weren't designed to compete with the obstacles we throw at them. This doesn't mean that we can't go fast in our boats, or watch whales and dolphins, we just have to be more aware of how our boating behavior can effect these creatures if we're not careful.
Unfortunately this means that marine mammal protection laws have to be geared toward the lowest common denominator, the complete idiot that has no clue about boating or wildlife, and the the seasoned boaters "suffer" as a result.

Slowing your boat to no-wake speed, or keeping your distance from whales is a small inconvenience compared to watching an animal suffer unnecessarily from amputated flippers, 10 inch gouges, and internal injuries from impact.-k
elaelap posted 11-08-2011 11:12 AM ET (US)
Thanks for that thoughtful post, Kevin. Regulations (and enforcement) regarding the marine environment are necessary in an increasingly crowded world, because there's always a certain percentage of the population who are thoughtless, ill-educated, or basically cruel and sadistic. I've never understood why many motorboat owners and operators seem less concerned about the environment than others who recreate on the ocean -- the sailors, surfers and recreational divers -- but there you are.
Those of us at this website who have experienced the magic of a close encounter with a whale will agree about the importance of reasonable regulations designed to protect these magnificent creatures from the ignorant few.
Tony
contender posted 11-08-2011 01:11 PM ET (US)
Not to stir things up again, but has anyone ever eaten Whaler Meat? Is it good?, considering the Japanese still catch them for their country for food....
gnr posted 11-08-2011 01:14 PM ET (US)
Tastes like manatee...
Tohsgib posted 11-08-2011 02:20 PM ET (US)
Look guys/gal. I am a big environmentalist, especially in my area. I have never hit a Manatee, matter of fact my biggest GCBWOA rendezvous takes place at the Homasassa Springs national park where they have tons of seacows to watch nibble on your prop. Nobody on my 8 rendezvous have hit one either. Matter of fact I don't know ANYONE who has hit one. The fact that none or a couple were ever hit on my river, why mess with it for 3 years? During that 3 years they decided to "put on hold" every marine building permit for the most part. This not only killed many of the dock builders etc around here but kept me from getting a new seawall and hundreds of others that needed one. How is that good for the environment when your land is filling in the river and canals? They can say they found 200 dead Manatees in a certain area but that does not mean they died there. Unlike a deer being hit by a car, a manatee might swim or float for days before dying from it's wounds. All Manatees could be hit in Miami and then found all over FL dead for all we know...we DON'T know. People from other states have no friggin clue what it's like down here or the situation surrounding it. Not to be a douche but again, I have not said anything in a serious manner about stuff in other states because I OBVIOUSLY don't know what is going on there. Anyone want to start about wild boars getting hit by cars in FL? How about Gators eating your pet? Did'nt think so because that is not a common subject at the golf course or cheese & wine party but poor little helpless Manatees are.
lizard posted 11-08-2011 03:04 PM ET (US)
It is dangerous to assume that someone who lives in another state has no idea what is happening to Manatees in Florida. My brother has lived waterfront on Siesta Key 20+ years, my parents are on the canal, waterfront in Venice, since 1981. My brother spends his weekends, waterfront, on Gasparilla Island.
I remember seeing my first manatee on a trip to the folks place in 1983. It swam right up to our dock, scared the crap out of me, I had never seen one. They are NOT fast swimmers.
Manatees are often ID'd and tracked by wildlife officials based on the placement of their scars, from prior, survived boat strikes. Sort of their fingerprint for tracking purposes. Manatees are often noted to have up to half a dozen prior prop strikes. (See the links provided by me myriad times in this thread). In short, there are many more watercraft injuries to manatees that are not contained in the statistics, because they survived.
Many are tagged, where activities are monitored, movements recorded, and ultimately, death locations identified.
There are 14 reported deaths of manatees by watercraft in Citrus county since 2008 (see the same documentation on the links provided myriad times in this thread). I believe that Homasassa is part of Citrus County.
When you tear down and insult the party, who has provided REPEATEDLY, accepted and documented FACTS, it doesn't argue your point effectively.
Like Elaelap, I am puzzled by recreational boaters who seem to think that negative environmental and marine creature outcomes are either their right, or part of some bizarre, inexplicable, conspiracy.
The data is there people. Argue about something else.
gnr posted 11-08-2011 03:24 PM ET (US)
"Like Elaelap, I am puzzled by recreational boaters who seem to think that negative environmental and marine creature outcomes are either their right, or part of some bizarre, inexplicable, conspiracy."
You are puzzled by a lot of things Lizzy but let me see if I can help you out with this one.
You see, also like Tony you have a very limited sense of humor and a very overzealous ego and by extension sense of self.
Folks like you who lack the understanding required to understand many types of humor also lack the ability for basic, ground level critical thinking. Instead of being able to listen to an idea, apply your analysis and proceed you are required to be given the idea and if it appeals to your heart on a base level you automatically accept this and seek ways to both support "your" opinion and to hide the fundamental flaw in your thinking aptitude which is the ability to truly apply critical thinking.
So it goes something like this....
A thread is started that tugs on your heartstrings. You immediately begin an emotional attachment as you've been trained to do. Someone comes along and makes an attempt at humor that you do not recognize as such. You react in a defensive fashion with links and stats and a few three dollar words so everyone will know how smart you are. Toss in a couple veiled insults and the jokesters smell blood in the water.
I would bet my last dollar that EVERY poster in this thread cares as much or more about the environment then you and Captain Amerika do. I would also bet that most of actually walk the walk to a greater degree than you and your comrade do. Just because your defense mechanisms don't allow you to understand this doesn't mean it isn't true.
I hope this has been some help to answer your question Lizzy. Good luck with that saving the world thing. I'm rooting for you!
Tohsgib posted 11-08-2011 03:55 PM ET (US)
You obviously do not know anything about the cows...they can move VERY quickly if they want. They aint no Dolphin but they will shoot 30 feet in a flash if they need to. Problem is they are not to bright and don't always react quick enough like Dolphin do. Just because your family lives down here does not mean anything. I have family in CT, I went to college in CT but I don't chime in about stuff going on in CT just because I can reference a website statistic.
It is people like you who screw it up for the rest of us. My canal is 42' wide and 5' deep on a good day. It is and has always been a Manatee zone even though I have only seen one small one in 13 years. Because of Jimmy Buffet and others "who read a lot" I was denied a seawall for over 3 years due to "reconfiguration of Manatee zones". WTF does that have to do with my canal? What does putting in a boat lift have to do with Sea Cows? Mind you much of this was during 2004/5 when we had HOW many hurricanes and were not allowed to rebuild NOR repair. Search the net all you want but you don't know JACK!
Tohsgib posted 11-08-2011 03:59 PM ET (US)
Reminds me of people who talk about wars and what is going around in the world and have never fired a gun or been in the military or even had a family member in the military. What we say to them is "If you don't want to stand behind our troops, you are gladly allowed to stand in front of them!"
Stick to knitting sweaters or whatever people do in cold climates these days...I'm going boating.
Tohsgib posted 11-08-2011 04:02 PM ET (US)
FYI...my bad, it is spelled Homosassa. I should know that by now, not that I am a Homo. Well actually I am a Homosapien.
Menemsha69 posted 11-08-2011 04:07 PM ET (US)
Nick- who is the authority that put a moratorium on building/rebuilding seawalls on the river?-k
WT posted 11-08-2011 04:07 PM ET (US)
Is anyone going to start a whale and manatee relief fund? :-)
David Pendleton posted 11-08-2011 06:48 PM ET (US)

quote:
Not to stir things up again, but has anyone ever eaten Whaler Meat? Is it good?, considering the Japanese still catch them for their country for food....
I tried whale meat from a can when I lived on Okinawa back in the 80's.
Without a doubt the worse thing I have ever smelled, or eaten.
Haven't tried Manatee.
contender posted 11-08-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)
Thanks Dave...
Tohsgib: I feel your pain on the sea wall, I had to jump through similar hoops as well. I have come to the conclusion that some people that get jobs with any type of authority tend lose almost all of their common sense. Usually, these are the same people that have government jobs that can not make it out in the real world. ANYONE with any common sense would realise building a sea wall/boat davits has/have no effect on the sea cows in any way shape or form.... Try submitting the building permit again, but do not call it a sea wall, its either a earth retaining wall, or a sub terrain concrete fence to keep out unwanted borrowing critters...good luck
Tohsgib posted 11-08-2011 11:26 PM ET (US)
Long since finished but I had dark hair when I started it!
Let us bury this mess and all kiss up!
Chriscz posted 11-09-2011 12:53 AM ET (US)
Geez, As a newer member of this scene, it's rough to watch some of the folks that post great whaler info, expertise, and insight degenerate into such attacks on each other. But hey maybe this is common and I just need to search the archives on topics unrelated to whaler glory and awesome technical advice.
Tohsgib and Menemsha69, I bet it was the us army corps of engineers as the regulatory authority with references to USFWS and section 7 ESA consultations for manatees and manatee critical habitat which slowed tohsgibs project down.
Ultimately it's easy to point out examples where regulators have defied common sense on their application of their authorities, but at the same time actions/requirements that can appear to be unreasonable at one scale, are essential at another. Of course your circumsatances are unique, but shoreline armoring is often far from ecologically benign.
jimh posted 11-09-2011 08:08 AM ET (US)
It looks to me like the Manatee population in Florida is concentrated around Miami. If they're being killed there, we ought to compare the mortality rate of the Manatee to the general human population in the region--Miami is a rather dangerous place to live. (I learned this from watching MIAMI VICE in the 1970's and from that Al Pacino movie--so it must be true.)
contender posted 11-09-2011 09:17 AM ET (US)
Jim: Its worst than you think
gnr posted 11-09-2011 09:38 AM ET (US)
There has to be alcohol involved.
conch posted 11-09-2011 10:14 AM ET (US)
tough town indeed,and this part of the problem.
http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/conch1/tough%20town/

Chuck
flippa posted 11-09-2011 11:17 AM ET (US)
So the Manatee are getting killed because of gang violence in Miami?
WT posted 11-09-2011 12:12 PM ET (US)
Not all the manatees, only the manatees that are involved in drug trafficking.
Tohsgib posted 11-09-2011 01:43 PM ET (US)
They just made a movie about it. This undercover Dolphin tries to get into the Manatee gang of Thunder Row in Miami but screws up. They chop his tail off as a warning to the "others". This boy then finds the dying Dolphin and rescues him and has a prosthetic tail made for him. Indebted to the kid for saving his life the Dolphin has to choose between revenge and the kid so he hires a couple Gavones from NJ to whack the Manatees. The toll was like 767 dead...the friggin media blamed it on powerboats and cold water. Jimy Buffet dies from a heart attack...FORGETABOUTIT!
gnr posted 11-09-2011 01:56 PM ET (US)
Never been a big Rosie O'Donnell fan but her role as the Manatee gang leaders old lady was superb.
egres posted 11-09-2011 05:53 PM ET (US)
Surfer almost swallowed by Whale.
http://www.care2.com/causes/surfer-almost-becomes-lunch-for-whale.html
Smart and precise for their bulk.
The herrings never had a chance.
Russ 13 posted 11-10-2011 08:19 PM ET (US)
The Manatees are NOT even a native species to Fl.
Yet the "save the cute critters movement" now has them listed as endangered. Manatees eat the very sea grass that is the foundation for shrimp, crab, and many juvenile fish.
Between the poor water quality & Manatee munching, the sea grass areas are declining, the very habitat that supports
the growth of many FL native species.
Manatees can move very quickly if they want to.
Most boaters would NOT want to hit a two ton animal/object
with their boat. The government OVERregulation is moronic.
The seawall/dock permit limbo, just another example of mindless overregulation.
Next time you observe a local law enforcement boat speeding in a Manatee zone, or watch a navy vessel speeding through a wale protection zone, let me know how
our government "cares" so deeply about these species &
Federal Regulations regarding mamal protection.
...
Thanks to all the OVER regulation, my one escape from
the influx of people into the state of Forida,(the state is full-please go back home)is now too overregulated.
..
You need a book to keep curent with the fish regulations alone, Very sad indeed.
Menemsha69 posted 11-10-2011 08:52 PM ET (US)
Russ-
Okay, then where are they native to? The USFWS have sirenian fossils that are around 15 million years old found in Florida, sirenian meaning dugongs and manatees. The Caribe Indians hunted them long before the time of Columbus. As to the rest of your post...wow.-k
Owtrayj25 posted 11-10-2011 10:15 PM ET (US)
Note to California surfers...do not park your board, particularly if you are on it, under a flock of sea gulls circling above.
Binkster posted 11-10-2011 10:27 PM ET (US)
Thank you Russ you said it all.
Our tourist friend from Atlanta asks, OK, then where are they native to.
Well I know they are not native to Florida and are an invasive species, but I didn' know myself so I checked Wikipedia. They say;
West India. The coast of Georgia is usually the northernmost range of the West Indian manatees because their low metabolic rate does not protect them in cold water. Prolonged exposure to water temperatures below 68 °F (20 °C) can bring about "cold stress syndrome" and death.[9]
So now we know, they come from Georgia. Bet your surprised at that. Probably originated in a lake near Atlanta.
BTW knew some fellows years ago that used to harpoon them in the Caloosahatchee River in Ft. Myers. They like to eat them. Said they tasted like chicken.
WT posted 11-11-2011 01:47 AM ET (US)
We can all pitch in. For pennies a day, you too can adopt a manatee.
http://www.savethemanatee.org/adoptpag.htm
WT posted 11-11-2011 01:59 AM ET (US)
Oooops. You can adopt a whale too.
http://www.savethewhales.org/adopt.html
These nonprofit organizations must be doing a great service for all these important causes.
Russ 13 posted 11-11-2011 05:11 AM ET (US)
Yes, my thoughts on over regulation, are very subdued.
Binkster you make me laugh!!
From Georgia & taste like chicken.
Sounds like a franchise opportunity.
...
"Save the whales" ?? for a time in the 80's we did have
"Save the bales", although frowned upon by local law enforcement.
...
Yes it seems they are from The West Indies.
It would also seem that IF every year Florida would have a month of very cold weather, the Manatee & people migration
problem might be solved.
Now where did I put my A-C-M-E Super Ice Machine Ray Gun ????
....

Menemsha69 posted 11-11-2011 06:40 AM ET (US)
Man, Binkie! How do you come up with this stuff? It's always fresh, always original, you should go pro! I thought- there's no way he can top his Frisco Pete gig for originality, so fresh and amusing it got him banned from the site! Boy was I wrong...tastes like chicken!

Here's one that I posted on CW in 2006 that I'm especially fond of:
Reminds me of a story I heard of an Eastpoint Oysterman who went in front of a Frankin County (Florida) Judge on charges of poaching manatee. The Oysterman confessed to his crime, stating he was only intending to feed his family and kinfolk (lots of them) with the hapless seacow. The Judge, feeling sorry for the Oysterman, sentenced the Oysterman to a very lenient "time served" sentence as it had been his first offense and he was trying to provide for his family. As the Oysterman was leaving the courtroom the Judge stopped him and asked " Just out of curiousity, what does a manatee taste like?" "Well your Honor" replied the Oysterman, "It's not as tough as a Florida Panther, and a little sweeter than a Bald Eagle..."
You see, it incorporates 3 protected species!
Now for those that prefer a little information with some accuracy:
http://myfwc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2511/~/ are-manatees-native-to-florida%3F
You two Florida "natives" are doing a great job (unitentionally, I'm sure) of bolstering the need for tighter regulations in Florida! As I said in my previous post:
Unfortunately this means that marine mammal protection laws have to be geared toward the lowest common denominator, the complete idiot that has no clue about boating or wildlife, and the the seasoned boaters "suffer" as a result.
Maybe the manand his regulations ain't so dumb after all!-k
Binkster posted 11-11-2011 08:53 AM ET (US)
[Nonsensical tale has been elided.]
Russ 13 posted 11-11-2011 09:44 AM ET (US)
WoW Menemsha69
Surely there is some "protected species" near your home that could use all your applied energy. lighten up.
With all those "bones" found in your reference article.....
Maybe they DO taste like chicken......no plucking required.
...
Kidding aside, my main point is that the very Federal agencys that enforce our OVER BAKED laws, also pay NO attention to them, when it serves their interest.
MORE REGULATION is NOT the SOLUTION, just another problem.
Unless you are in the legal profession, then it's job security.
...please pass the "seacow chops".
Russ 13 posted 11-11-2011 12:27 PM ET (US)
I enjoy all wild life, and love nature and the outdoors--but to incarcerate someone for killing a manatee. What is the legal system in this country doing? Other than destroying our freedom, while making the lawyers rich! Maybe it's time to "migrate" to the Bahamas.
WT posted 11-11-2011 12:37 PM ET (US)
Regulations provides job security, pension and benefits to government workers and funded by the taxpayers. It isn't going away anytime soon.
I don't mind protecting whales and manatees, but let's not go overboard.
gnr posted 11-11-2011 01:35 PM ET (US)
And it provides an outlet for those that just need to "fix" things to prove their value to themselves and to justify their personal abuses of whatever it is they personally abuse.
Tohsgib posted 11-11-2011 01:39 PM ET (US)
Good point I forgot about.
IN FLORIDA, If you are a fishing guide, you can PURCHASE a permit that allows you to go fast in Manatee and slow speed zones. Take THAT to the friggin courts when they want to put up more "zones". All we need to do is get guide licenses and we are "Licenesed to Kill!" I wonder how many injured Manatees are from Law enforcement and guides that do not care about "zones" because they are "Above the Law!"
Man Steven Seagal could come down here and make movies instead of all those "pipeline eco" movies he made about Canada and Alaska. SAVE THE MOOSE!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/BiggieFL/ATTF1515.jpg
contender posted 11-11-2011 09:24 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib: Good one on the guide licence, I'll have to look that one up, still its insane.

Bink: hard to believe two people are doing life for killing a sea cow, has to be something else to the story...
Binkster posted 11-11-2011 10:53 PM ET (US)
Its nonsensical, but its not so easy to get a six pack or what ever they call it now licence.
Tohsgib posted 11-12-2011 01:38 AM ET (US)
6 pack and guide licenses are very different from what I have heard. Your 6 pack is more like a offshore boat with up to 6 people and I think 100.000lbs.
Binkster posted 11-12-2011 06:51 AM ET (US)
I had a six pack licence at one time, but I eventually let it expire. It was the lowest form of licence, and let you take up to 6 persons on your boat and get paid to do it. You could take them to the beach, or you can take them fishing anywhere, from inshore to any distance offshore. A n inshore fishing guide would fit this description. The test is given by the USCG, and takes alot of studying on the minute details about the rules of the road. Common sense about boating won't get you through. Also need a certain amount of boating experience which would be no problem for most of us. The cost of the licence is not much, and it must be renewed every 5 years, for free, problem is they don't send you notice, and after about 10 years I forgot to renew, so that was the end of it, no late renewals. I never used it anyway. Licence holders should not have any privileges that anyone else does not have. I never heard of what you are saying.
Chriscz posted 11-12-2011 10:51 AM ET (US)
Not sure what sort of local regulations you have in Florida regarding slow speed zones and exceptions to those zone. However none of them would exempt you from the federal laws protecting marine mammals (Marine Mammal Protection Act) or endangered species (endangered species act). There are processes to get exemptions to those acts but they are far from easy to do, even for law enforcement and wildlife agencies. If you harm a marine mammal or listed species, even if it is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity, you are still liable under the laws ( unless you have done the specific process to get exemptions (incidental harassment authorization or "take" authorization which take about a year or more to get).
Some of you may remember stories from the Pacific Northwest where sea lions were hanging out near fish ladders at the Bonneville dam on the Columbia River and the Locks here in Seattle, feasting on the returning salmon........salmon stocks which are listed as threatened or endangered under ESA. So what do you do......you can't mess with the sea lions because they are protected, yet they are decimating another protected species.
Ultimately, after months of analysis and paperwork, the appropriate approvals were obtained to relocate the sea lions by capturing them and transporting them hundreds of miles away ( from Washington to California). The same individuals where back within weeks...again feasting. Eventually for the habitual offenderes, lethal action was authorized.......
I wonder if they used whalers during any of these efforts?
egres posted 11-14-2011 12:12 AM ET (US)
And then they were more Whale concerns.
http://www.timescolonist.com/technology/Endangered+whales+need+large+ share+chinook+recover+study+says/5702993/story.html
I would be hard pressed to predict what the sea mammals state of survival will be in 2021 AD.
Russ 13 posted 11-14-2011 12:46 PM ET (US)
The federal Regulations are a nice "feel good" idea.
But highly ineffective on any migratory species.
What we "protect" over here, they eat over there.
Unfortunatly the human commercial overfishing of our oceans
will probably result in the extinction of many species.
lizard posted 11-14-2011 12:58 PM ET (US)
These quotes come to mind, when I think about the future of our environment:
When future generations judge those who came before them on environmental issues, they may conclude “they didn’t know”: let us not go down in history as the generations who knew, but didn’t care - Mikhail Gorbachev (2002)
Treat the Earth well. It is not inherited from your parents, it is borrowed from your children - old Kenyan proverb
Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little - Edmund Burke, Whig MP for Bristol 1774-80
Environmental problems are really social problems anyway. They begin with people as the cause and end with people as the victims - Sir Edmund Hilary
I am sure that some will consider these trite, but I think they adequately sum it up.
Tohsgib posted 11-14-2011 01:38 PM ET (US)
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Winston Churchill
Binkster posted 11-14-2011 02:16 PM ET (US)
Nick, good quote, maybe lizzie will change her mind
lizard posted 11-14-2011 02:22 PM ET (US)
Toshgib- why label yourself a fanatic? :)
You have a different view than some others. I mean, you've made your point, with your 20 posts on this thread, you hold the top.
Here are some other contributors tallies:
Me #17
Contender-# 8
Conch- # 12
GNR- #9
WT- #8
JimH- #9
egres posted 11-14-2011 03:01 PM ET (US)
The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extremes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning.
Winston Churchill

Chriscz posted 11-14-2011 03:19 PM ET (US)
To add some more quotes
"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money."
~ Cree Prophecy
or maybe this is more appropriate
" I am tired of talk that comes to nothing. It makes my heart sick when I remember all the good words and all the broken promises. There has been too much talking by men who had no right to talk. It does not require many words to speak the truth."
~ Chief Joseph: Nez Perce 1840-1904, Nez Percéé Indian chief
or even better
"I should be out on my boat and not surfing Whaler discussion forums"
gnr posted 11-14-2011 03:30 PM ET (US)
Come on Binks....
If NPR changes their mind then lizzy might follow.
Like that's going to happen!
Binkster posted 11-14-2011 05:17 PM ET (US)
(~ Chief Joseph: Nez Perce 1840-1904, Nez Percéé Indian chief)
Chief Joseph was refurring to the buffalo slaughter where the federal goverment hired hunters to slaughter the herds of buffalo that the Indians depended on, so as to change their way of life and force them on reservations. Now the goverment is making up to them by letting them own and run all the gambling casinos. The Seminoles have become a powerful force in Fl., but thats another story.
I say let the marine mammals fend for themselves. Its the American way, no goverment programs,
pete r posted 11-14-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)
We in Australia certainly hate it when the Japs keep hunting
whales in our part of the world and claim its for research.
Its their culturual difference!!! They need to fish them, even if its to the end of the earth.
I remember as a kid, I was compelled to pull wings off flies which buzzed around my bedroom window, spend many hours killing ants with my flip flop sandles on our concrete driveway and later shot any bird with my slug gun which dared to feed in our yard.
Today I take great pleasure leaving all to be...
I can now step side ways to avoid an ant or open a window to allow a fly to escape and the same with spiders rather than kill the thing.
Education helps...
conch posted 11-14-2011 07:52 PM ET (US)
Lizard you seem to be obsessing,why don't you
1.step in from the ledge
2.take of that tinfoil hat
3.put down the pipe
4.push the the granola bowl away
5.take off those birkenstocks
and step outside and go for a nice boat ride in your whaler.
Chuck
David Pendleton posted 11-14-2011 07:53 PM ET (US)
It's probably time to stop using the term "Japs" do refer to the Japanese people; whalers or not.
Particularly, since we stopped referring to Australia as a dumping ground for lepers, criminals, morons and other such undesirables from the Empire.
No?
pete r posted 11-14-2011 08:25 PM ET (US)
Oh dear,
We do seem to have our fur up!!!
lizard posted 11-14-2011 08:41 PM ET (US)
Hey Conch- let me clue you in here a bit, I had not posted on this thread in 6 days, unlike some of the other posters who persisted in the topic, including yourself, coming in @ # 3, with a dozen posts. I had to step back from it when it got to the inane and moronic.
Your numbered assumptions don't bode well for you, you are way off. You looked better when you were posting things like "Ever tried pickled sea turtle flipper?". Showed your true colors about lacking respect for other creatures.
conch posted 11-14-2011 08:48 PM ET (US)
Liz do you always count other peoples posts? There is probably an app for that. How are you at cracks in the sidewalk?
Chuck
pete r posted 11-14-2011 08:50 PM ET (US)
Hey Dave,
Get your facts right.
I don't remember hearing we were a dumping ground for leppers too
lizard posted 11-14-2011 08:56 PM ET (US)
Pete R- don't blame it on the poor guy from the midwest, they may not know the difference between Australia and Molokai, where lepers were taken. In fact, leprosy is still alive and well today, and it called Hansen's disease.
David Pendleton posted 11-14-2011 09:02 PM ET (US)
lizard -- I grew up in Rhode Island, so remember the Felix Unger rule about assumption...
lizard posted 11-14-2011 09:13 PM ET (US)
Felix Unger and Oscar Madison had a lot of great one liners, the "assumption" one would not be particularly high on my list. They don't make TV like that anymore, its all crap now. A favorite Unger line was "Everyone thinks I'm a hypochondriac. It makes me sick."
In any case RI or MN, lepers went to and are still housed on, Molokai, home of Dole Pineapple. (Leprosy is caused by a mycobacterium and causes granulomatous disease on the skin, just like a relative, mycobacterium tuberculosis, causes granulomatous disease, in primarily the lungs. (And no, I did not Wiki this, I used to work in a Hansen's clinic).
It is true that the British empire shuffled the murderous thugs (POMES) to Australia, but what has that got to do with marine creature protections?
conch posted 11-14-2011 09:38 PM ET (US)
Molokai, home of Dole Pineapple? Try Lanai years ago, and central Oahu.
Chuck
WT posted 11-14-2011 10:33 PM ET (US)
Dole Central Oahu only since 1900?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/2009%20Oahu%20Hawaii/ DSC_2071.jpg
lizard posted 11-14-2011 10:37 PM ET (US)
Wrong again, Conch. You have some internet search version of the history, I have been to Molokai, the big Island, Maui, Oahu, Kauai and Lana'i, several times spanning 1984-present. In fact, the Dole ships still off load in San Diego, and we watch it when we are on that coast.
jimh posted 11-14-2011 11:03 PM ET (US)
I might have nine posts (now ten), but seven of them were to ask for clarification about statistics. That does not count. Nor does this one. Put me down for two. And at least one of them was reasonably humorous.
Russ 13 posted 11-14-2011 11:12 PM ET (US)

Should I stop eating Dole Pineapple for fear of a Mycrobacterium & Leprosy??
Or is there a cure??
Hopefully it's not whale fin soup!
conch posted 11-15-2011 06:40 AM ET (US)
Off to my hunting trip.
Liz keep me post-ed will ya. Gas guzzling Ford 4x4 pickup truck is filled with guns ,ammo and the dog. Honk if you see us Liz we will be looking for you.
Or,new this year follow along with the new barrel-cam and set your sights on all the action live through the web.
I'll be looking for that Barn Find Whaler also.
Chuck
gnr posted 11-15-2011 08:49 AM ET (US)
Yet another example of lizzy's hypocrisy.
If I of any of her antagonists used the word jap we wpuld have gotten a ten paragraph reprimand. Since the clown who used it agrees with her she lets it slide. Typical and expected behavior fron one of her kind.
flippa posted 11-15-2011 09:36 AM ET (US)
Now I'm confused; is it gang violence, Dole Pineapple, Mycrobacterium & Leprosy or the Japanese whale hunters that are killing the manatee?
And are they all harassing the whales as well?
Tohsgib posted 11-15-2011 12:09 PM ET (US)
To get back on topic:
"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law."
Winston Churchill
One more for Lizard:
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
Winston Churchill
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
Winston Churchill
For Flippa:
The Dolphins VS the Manatees has been an ongoing Gang war in south FL. Very bloody! The Japanese eat too much pineapple and hence have Leprosy and thus need to hunt Whales for Whale fin soup to cure it because they dislike Hawaii so much after the whole Pearl harbor thing and such...CAPEESH!
How Winston Churchill got involed is beyond me.
Tohsgib posted 11-15-2011 01:17 PM ET (US)
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves."
Ronald Reagan
Then again he also said this: "You can tell alot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jellybeans."
Ronald Reagan
Binkster posted 11-15-2011 01:58 PM ET (US)
jimh sez;
(Put me down for two. And at least one of them was reasonably humorous)
I checked all of your 10 posts on this thread several, (six or seven times) and found none that were even faintly humorous, and it doesn't take much to make me laugh. If you were a humorous type of guy, you would have let Frisco Pete live. Fess up, were you hooter? If you were, you are a closet humorist.
This thread has slipped into just name calling now. I give tohsgib credit for the most original posts on this thread.
Lizzy well the same old, same old, it gets tiresome.
pete r posted 11-15-2011 05:27 PM ET (US)
Agree Binkster, although I have enjoyed alot of the mud slinging it doesn't need to go on and on...
Tohsgib posted 11-16-2011 12:05 PM ET (US)
Frisco Pete wa not that funny Binks. Bob Kemmler was however.
I was trying to get back on subject about harrassing ocean mammals. Anyone have a tickle stick I can borrow?
Binkster posted 11-16-2011 02:42 PM ET (US)
Sorry that Frisco Pete offended you. Never could understand why BOB KEMMLER JR. was banned. he loved Mercury outboards, true but so do some others. I never thought he was funny at all, and he never tried to be.
Sorry again to get off your line of thought. You can't use a tickle stick on a marine mammal, a harpoon, a long rope and a buoy is the only method the law allows.
pete r posted 11-16-2011 06:35 PM ET (US)
Frisco....
Village people....
I remember travelling the US and hearing one of their songs being used for your navy recruitment until they twigged on the lyrics.
Tohsgib posted 11-17-2011 11:01 AM ET (US)
I hung out with Bob many a days...he is one funny SOB to be honest with ya. Crazy too. Frisco did not offend me...talking about Mercury outboards might.
Perry posted 11-18-2011 12:56 AM ET (US)

quote:
Molokai, home of Dole Pineapple
lizard you have no clue what you're talking about. I was born and raised in Hawaii and have lived here for 40 years. Molokai was never the home of Dole. Yes, they grew pineapple near Maunaloa on Molokai for 50 years but they left in the 70's.
Lanai was owned by Dole and provided 75% of the World's pineapples at one time. Rupert Murdoch eventually bought the island after pineapple became more profitable to grow in Central America. Oahu even had larger pineapple plantations than Molokai.
Tohsgib posted 11-18-2011 01:47 PM ET (US)
How long does it take for a pineapple to grow?
contender posted 11-18-2011 04:23 PM ET (US)
I here about 2 years in Hawaii, and can be longer in other places. Hawaii is suppose to be the best place to grow them, maybe the soil?
gnr posted 11-18-2011 04:55 PM ET (US)

quote:
How long does it take for a pineapple to grow
Faster than normal if you sprinkle some Monsanto magic dust on it.
Right lizzy?
Binkster posted 11-18-2011 10:30 PM ET (US)
Some people grow pineapples in Ft. Myers. Just cut off the tops and plant them in the ground. Takes two years before you have a producing plant. In a vacant lot next to my home I found about six wild pineapple plants growing with pineapples. the squirrels would eat them when they got to be the size of softballs. they tried to grow them commercially in Florida, but it never panned out.
Markbg posted 11-19-2011 08:38 AM ET (US)
Wow, from whale harassment to pineapples. I like this thread :)
Tohsgib posted 11-19-2011 08:55 AM ET (US)
For $3 I don't wanna wait 2 years...plus I have squirrel issues.
Hoosier posted 11-19-2011 10:08 AM ET (US)
After wading through this "thread" I'm sure glade we don't have whales or Manatees here in the Great Lakes...yet...they may end up following the Asian Carp up here...
Here's a tachnical question: can a large whale float in fresh water?
contender posted 11-19-2011 11:02 AM ET (US)
Hoosier: I would say yes, would it not just be like a human? Easier to float in salt than fresh but it can be done. And I have seen some humans the size of whales floating in resort pools....
gusgus posted 11-19-2011 01:21 PM ET (US)
I am going to guess the year as 2005, when a breaching sperm whale landed on the bow of a tour boat, knocking a lady into the frigid waters of Prince William Sound. She survived with no permanent injuries, but she did have a great story to tell as we all do.
Every year I went on at least 2 But trips (Halibut). The breaching whales sometimes came from seemingly nowhere. Right next to the boat. We never went out when we didn't see one, sometimes we saw 20 in a day. Usually a mile away.
Orcas and Sea Lions were always there too, the tour boats spent a lot of time near them all.
Never saw a pineapple bush in Alaska, But if Art Bell was correct it won't be long.
egres posted 11-22-2011 01:58 AM ET (US)
To get this gig back on track for the actual importance of this subject and to give it some actual fuel to the facts.
Read and believe in the fact that this "Bucko Killer" was actually very human like in his personality.
This actually happened right in my backyard and I did see the smart fella with my own eyes.
Luna tale told beautifully
http://www.timescolonist.com/entertainment/Luna+tale+told+beautifully/ 5731515/story.html
Heck, You can probably get to see this flick and judge of the merits for yourselves.
pete r posted 11-22-2011 05:43 AM ET (US)
Egress,
There is some great old stories told by our early fisherman who pay homage to lone whales.
At Bateman's Bay south of Sydney, when originally a famous whaling port tells the story of a whale who teamed up and assisted fisherman by herding schools of fish towards their nets in return for a share of the spoils.
He eventually died of old age and his skeleton still remains there for all to remember.
My wife tells me there is a similar story in New Zealand about a whale who was very special in their region, but sadly the whales life is ended by some guy shooting him for laugh.
Tohsgib posted 11-22-2011 02:02 PM ET (US)
There are Whales on the great lakes. I saw adocumentary about it as they are dying off. They are small like pilot whales(may even be a kind of one) and if my memory serves me right they are not dark in color. There are also fresh water Dolphins but I don't think they are in the US.
Tohsgib posted 11-22-2011 02:09 PM ET (US)
http://greatlakesgazette.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/ asian-carp-and-whale-watching-on-the-great-lakes/
David Pendleton posted 11-23-2011 12:21 AM ET (US)
Well, if I encountered any of these Great Lakes whales, I would most definitely shoot at them.
Tohsgib posted 11-23-2011 03:00 PM ET (US)
Go Dave! there probably is not any legislation about doing so since they are so rare. Kinda like shooting a FL Panther in NJ...hummm!
Markbg posted 11-24-2011 02:53 PM ET (US)
Ridiculous, ain’t it? You could end up listed on some place like http://www.findermind.com like a common criminal for simply driving too close to a whale you probably didn’t even see in the first place. Not to mention paying a hefty fine.
How much more regulation this country needs?
egres posted 11-28-2011 02:13 AM ET (US)
One of the most interesting topic seen this year
And still somehow running out of gas.
I'd be curious as to actually get to the meat of this subject..
How many of you Blackberries/IPod holders have actually seen; up close; a live and breathing whale in your actual lifetime?
Oh Yea!
And what were your actual recalled gut feelings about these short encounters?
I personally did have several encounters with these "Shmoozers" and would have a few comments about their attitudes.
Tohsgib posted 11-28-2011 10:53 AM ET (US)
I have seen them in Cape Cod. I was going to take a picture but got lectured for an hour by Lizard and by that time they had moved on. Then I heard Dave shot them with his Glock.
gnr posted 11-28-2011 11:34 AM ET (US)
LOL Serge....

You're one bad MOFO!
LOL
WT posted 11-28-2011 01:07 PM ET (US)
Whaler meets whale.
Whale harasses tuna.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/ 2009%20No%20tuna%20but%20whale/?albumview=slideshow
From my Blackberry. :-)
Warren
egres posted 11-29-2011 02:44 AM ET (US)
Warren,
Nice photos of a sociable humpback
There is got to be a lot more to the story..
Curious to see if the hump did notice your craft and gave you the round eyeball look.
They will usually have a careful look at what is floating nearby.
WT posted 11-29-2011 11:25 AM ET (US)
The whale made at least two passes near us and stayed at a pretty safe distance. There was a school of dolphins too and they get very close to the boat. On another trip, while my boat was in neutral, a school of dolphins came within a yard of the boat to see what I was up to.
That whale needed a few Tic Tacs. :-)
Warren
egres posted 12-04-2011 10:54 PM ET (US)
Whales.
Killer Whales that is
http://www.hellobc.com/en-CA/SightsActivitiesEvents/ NaturalSightsParksWildlife/WhaleWatching/Victoria.htm
lizard posted 12-05-2011 12:31 AM ET (US)
A few years ago, I was camping on Vancouver Island. We went up the southern/western coast. EVERY gas station had signs up about campers NOT letting their kids wander from the camp sites. These were very informal campsites- NOT campgrounds, no hook ups, etc. Reason= something like 80% of all mountain lion kills on North America are on Vancouver.
So, we camp several days, out of Point Renfrew. Lots of logging debris.
One day paddling, ORCAS. Awesome. Scared me silly but AWESOME and not that far from shore.
For anyone who has never been there, the San Juan Islands are amazing. Vancouver, Whidbey, Orcas, I forget the rest. Phosphorescent slugs longer than your toothbrush.
Tohsgib posted 12-05-2011 02:37 PM ET (US)
And obviously a couple lazy Mountain Lions.
gnr posted 12-05-2011 02:58 PM ET (US)
I've heard the logging debris is NOT to be missed!
Binkster posted 12-05-2011 04:38 PM ET (US)
OK, as the self appointed CORRECTOR OF BAD INFORMATION on this site I decided to check out Lizzies claim the 80% of human kills on humans by mountain lions/cougars(same animal) occurred on Vancouver Island. I spent several or more hours researching this and I come up with these statistics.
From 2001-2010 NO humans were killed on Vancouver Island.
In the entire USA and Canada although there were a few attacks on humans,the death toll is as follows.
2001--1
2002--1
2003--1
2004--1
2005--0
2006--0
2007--0
2008--1
2009--0
2010--1
So in this time frame, a total of 5 unlucky folks were killed by these cats in the entire US and Canada.
Actually this article makes interesting reading.
http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm
Lizzie probably got her info from an anti-tourist bureau or perhaps some good'ol boy redneck resident trying to scare the city slickers.
Do some research next time please Liz, I have taken alot of time out of my busy schedule, I'm supposed to be Christmas shopping!!
Probably the logging debris info was put out by the EPA and was actually the work of beavers.
WT posted 12-05-2011 05:17 PM ET (US)
I've heard that there have been increased cougar attacks near neighborhood bars around closing time.
pete r posted 12-05-2011 06:34 PM ET (US)
cougar!!!
Isn't that the stuff they drink in the bars...
Chriscz posted 12-06-2011 04:05 AM ET (US)
I spent several hours trying to find statistics on the cougar attacks reported outside bars, but failed to find any reports........on the other hand here is a simple wiki page which took all of about 10 seconds to find on Cougar attacks in north america
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America
I'm headed out to do some research on the cougar attacks near bars......
Tohsgib posted 12-06-2011 02:33 PM ET (US)
My bud got attacked by a Cougar at the VFW a couple weeks ago. He was not physically injured but his mind is all buggered. The only thing he mumbles is "I thought Cougars were supoosed to be HOT!".
ScooterCO posted 12-06-2011 04:30 PM ET (US)
I want to be attacked by a cougar at closing...
And I will boldly predict that the death rates are increasing from these encounters. Just makes sense, as we are all getting older and the female cougars numbers are increasing from all reports given to me via single drunk buddy recollections.
My real concern is the reports of Glock ownership by these cougars, and even a possibility of CCW permits
egres posted 12-07-2011 01:44 AM ET (US)
Had to be there I will have guessed.
http://iwcoffice.org/commission/convention.htm
And then,
Japan whaling fleet accused of using tsunami disaster funds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/07/ japan-whaling-fleet-tsunami-earthquake-funds
Can't say that I get the foreign notion of keeping the boats hunting for blubber for the sake of keeping them in business..
Looks like pound for pound;
The cougars may have an edge on sex appeal, for the vast majority of us, to be sure.
Binkster posted 12-07-2011 12:00 PM ET (US)
Defination of the term cougar women;
Cougar—a woman, 40 years of age or OLDER, who pursues younger men, typically more than seven years her junior. The origin of the word is debated.
Wow, I'm almost 74. I don't think I want to be persued by women 82 years old. (NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!)
Tohsgib posted 12-07-2011 02:39 PM ET (US)
Binks, how many years is that in cat years?
My cat eats lizards....well at least the tail.
I remember watching a lizard(gecko) chasing a moth in my yard. This lizard was jumping an easy 1.5' in the air trying to get it. Just as he snags the moth, my cat came out of nowhere and snagged him. Fun watching how the food chain works in the wild.
My 1st experience with a Cougar was in St Augustine at a wedding when I was 17. This widow(filthy rich) was about late 50's or so and not bad looking but to a 17 year old she was like the crypt keeper. She sat at my table and just hit on me all night. When we were all leaving she asked if I wanted a ride back to the hotel so I said sure as her Benzo was mint. As we entered the parking lot she put her hand on my leg and asked me if I wanted to join her for a cocktail....probably should have done it but she was no Mrs Robinson.
conch posted 12-07-2011 09:32 PM ET (US)
This is a cat
http://s873.photobucket.com/albums/ab291/conch1/Hunting/
Chuck
David Pendleton posted 12-07-2011 09:57 PM ET (US)
Actually, I see a douchebag and a lion.
Did you eat it?

egres posted 12-08-2011 11:31 AM ET (US)
And the fun thing about looking for Whales will be to be safe and legally enjoying the moment.
http://hawaiihumpbackwhale.noaa.gov/explore/whale_guidelines.html
conch posted 12-08-2011 12:11 PM ET (US)
David thanks for the heads up about professional hunter Bruce Roe in the photo. I didn't know you knew him.
When the thread drifted to cats that have killed people I remembered that I had some pictures that I received from Mr.Roe when I was negotiating to buy his Holland & Holland .500/465 nitro express double barrel rifle in the picture to add to my collection.
Mr Roe stated the lion had killed two people and was to be captured and moved to a ranch, but charged after an unsuccessful attempt to tranquilize it.
And yes reportedly the natives ate every ounce.
Chuck
elaelap posted 12-08-2011 08:13 PM ET (US)
Thanks David, my first thought exactly. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Zaire (now the Republic of Congo) in the mid-1970s, and the indiscriminate slaughter of the relatively few remaining wild critters that I witnessed and was told about and read about there, whether for food or trophy, whether by "white hunters" or by starving "natives", appalled me...and still does.
In our overcrowded world, IMO we've had enough of self-anointed "professional hunters," unless they're hunting with cameras (or, if absolutely necessary, with non-lethal tranquilizers prior to transportation of the animal to a safer environment).
No excuse anymore for killing a beast like that unless there's absolutely no alternate. We've gotta grow up as an animal species ourselves or we'll all-to-soon find ourselves alone with only our domesticated stock on this planet, and that would be a very sad thing for our grandkids.
Tony
elaelap posted 12-08-2011 08:17 PM ET (US)
In fact, make sure you all check out the second photo above, with the guy grinning as he displays the dead lion's teeth. Says it all!!!
(Perfect for this thread, conch...thanks for posting.)
Tony
conch posted 12-08-2011 08:54 PM ET (US)
"non-lethal tranquilizers"??? I would hope so.
elaelap posted 12-08-2011 10:24 PM ET (US)
Me too, conch. Me too.
gnr posted 12-09-2011 09:50 AM ET (US)
And he's off!
LOL
Somehow the photo above is different than a photo of our boy Tone holding a fish with a stupid grin on his face.
Classic!
LOL
Owtrayj25 posted 12-09-2011 11:47 AM ET (US)
Man, that big cat is beautiful. It's a shame it had to be put down. I would like to know the circumstances which led to having to kill it. I realize it killed 2 people, but did these people wander into its habitat? From the pic, it doesn't look like the lion is in a populated area.
I am a hunter of sorts, mostly for deer (and fish) and eat what I kill. Deer in many areas are becoming a nuisance, especially here int he mid-atlantic. I don't quite get hunting for sport.
conch posted 12-09-2011 01:20 PM ET (US)
Owtrayj25 I don't know much more about it.That picture and others were sent when I was buying the guys rifle. Like when we see a Whaler for sale and we want some pictures and background info mailed to us.
I recall that the lion was going to be flown to his ranch to live out its days,he said when an old male is replaced in the pride and they will no longer hunt for him ,they get close to a village and eat what is easy to catch.
It is unforntunate that the tranquilizer gun missed.This was in the 1990s.That rifle was already almost 60 years old.Two bullets,two barrels,two triggers and hopefully no mistakes. B.Roe looks to be about mid 60s in the pix,must have had a steady hand.He probably only had seconds to react.
Chuck
Binkster posted 12-09-2011 01:37 PM ET (US)
Nobody really hunts(to track or look for) deer or bear anymore. They just sit on a stand in a tree or a blind and ambush the animals when they show up to feed. Not very sporting at all. The only chance the animal have is hopefully (for the animals) the hunter is too drunk from sippin whiskey and can't aim straight and takes out his partner.
Kinda like chummin for fish, but I suppose thats OK cause I do it.
Shooting wolves from a helo is more sporting, and more expensive.
If hunters want to really hunt, join the Army or Marines. Plenty of hunting goin on, and huntees even shoot back to increase the adrenaline level.
burning_hXc_soul posted 12-09-2011 03:20 PM ET (US)
Binkster,
Insurgents generally are very cowardly and sit back and use the civilian populace as a shield, and blow up IEDs and remain hidden hundreds of yards away and usually don't come out to fight very often unless cornered, hence the long dragged out wars. If we could get them to conduct a war like real men we would have wiped them out a long, long time ago. The wars aren't what they used to be like when they kicked off and it was the wild west, now its all COIN and hearts and minds and making the native people happy about living in a third world dump hole, and trying to build something that resembles a national infrastructure while they have a self-serving, corrupt gov't. Not to mention other governments using the insurgents as a proxy war to attack the US. Very complex, very confusing but I will agree with you, it can be very exciting at times in what we called "a two way shooting range."
elaelap posted 12-09-2011 07:49 PM ET (US)
Mr.burning_hXc_soul:
This thread has strayed an incredible distance from the topic raised by my boat partner, Warren/WT. But since you raised the issue, I seem to remember from my elementary school history classes how the American revolutionaries beat the Redcoats by using guerrilla tactics; y'know, hiding behind trees with their long Kentucky rifles, knowing the territory intimately, retreating quickly when overpowered, living like 'fish in the sea' amongst their civilian supporters, and only very rarely confronting a massive line of British riflemen in a stand-up, old style European army v. army battle. I think this was very clever, hardly "cowardly," and eventually led to the independence of the thirteen English colonies. Do any of you youngsters remember this important part our our nation's history?
Not necessarily to support the Vietnamese, Iraqi, and Afganistani fighters, but whatever I might think of their forms of government (and believe me, I think they stink), it still really pisses me off to find my nation on the side of the imperialists for most of my lifetime.
Maybe Ron Paul from the Right and a bunch of my Left-wing pals have it correct: get the hell out of foreign lands where our IMMEDIATE national interests (as opposed to the interests of the multi-national corporations) aren't threatened. Bring our brave armed service men and women home, and let's deal together with the massive problems confronting our own society.
Tony
Menemsha69 posted 12-09-2011 08:16 PM ET (US)
Uh-oh Tony...you went and did it...get the popcorn folks! And here I was, stringing up the Christmas lights, and I had to look. I can't believe gnr hasn't pounced yet! Must be a record-25 minutes!-k
lizard posted 12-09-2011 08:43 PM ET (US)
What this thread has digressed into is drivel and it devalues this site.
elaelap posted 12-09-2011 09:10 PM ET (US)
Kevin and lizard,
You're both right and I'm sorry to have taken the hook. This topic was supposed to be about "Whale Harassment" (whatever that had to do with Boston Whalers); not manatees, lions, and the tactics used by American revolutionaries 240 years ago. Then again, it's good that we all keep talking, exchanging ideas and opinions utilizing this relatively new technology, and that's why I give thanks, in my own, independent, freethinking Jeffersonian way, for American democracy which allows us to do so.
Tony
burning_hXc_soul posted 12-09-2011 10:46 PM ET (US)
Elaelap,
Haha, Its all good, your opinion is yours, mine is mine, but I don't remember in history class when George Washington ordered the colonists to chop peoples heads off, force women into marriages then leave and now this woman is un-marriable in thier culture, and set off bombs killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis every day inciting a civil war based on 2 different sects of the same religion.... If you talk to any normal Iraqi, they will thank you over and over and throw you a feast and try to marry one of their daughters to you for taking out Saddam so we got that part right, but we also stepped into 3,000 years of a culture doing one thing and trying to help them move into a different direction and thats when the storm blew in and people decided to use the situation for personal gain. One day they'll get there, someday. Don't get me wrong though, America has done some F-ed up shit to people so we aren't totally infalliable but for the most part, Iraq was more good than bad, but good doesn't make headlines so you'll never know.
By the way, I just realized your name is Pale Ale backwards after being a member here for like 2 years...
Binkster posted 12-09-2011 10:52 PM ET (US)
Tony is right, its very hard to overcome a nation on its own soil. They have more of a will to fight than the foreign invaders. Proof of this is our involvement in Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, the Mid East, our American Revolution, The War of 1812, are the ones that come to mind. WWI was mostly fought on nuetral ground (France) and WWII was also mostly fought in France and Belgium, and the islands of the Pacific, all nuetral ground. By the time we got to invade Germany it was mostly a mop up operation, and we A bombed the crap out of Japan so we didn't need to invade, as they would have probably fought to the death of every person. The USSR invaded Afghanistan and fought there for 10 years until the USSR was broke and disintegrated. So who won that war. the same will happen to this country if we hang on long enough.
Can you imagine some country invading the USA on our own soil. Maybe China someday? I don't think so. In addition to fighting our armed forces, the invaders would have to deal with a very angry civilian population pecking away at them with every concevable weapon from behind every tree, and not wearing uniforms. Seems like thats what happening today in the Mid East.
Thing is, most of the younger folks don't know anything about history, so they have no clue.
elaelap posted 12-09-2011 11:52 PM ET (US)
BTW, burning_hXc_soul, if as I now suspect you're a veteran of the Iraq conflict, all I can say to you, as I said to many friends and two family members who made it back alive from the Vietnam fiasco forty years or so ago, is WELCOME HOME! and thanks for your bravery, commitment and patriotism. You didn't make policy, and the blunders of our so-called leaders (of BOTH political parties) shouldn't take anything whatsoever away from your heroism and sacrifice. Welcome home.
Tony
David Pendleton posted 12-10-2011 02:16 AM ET (US)

quote:
Can you imagine some country invading the USA on our own soil. Maybe China someday?
If this means I can get decent Szechuan in St. Paul, I might consider it...
pete r posted 12-10-2011 05:36 AM ET (US)
Hi Guys,
Just come in from building a new back deck for the boss.
As you know it's summer here so it's important to get the back yard set up for a bit of heavy outside partying for the next couple of weeks.
Well, happy to say the project went well and I felt good in my little world.
At days end I went inside, opened a beer and flicked on the TV.
The news was on and I was taken by the current report.
The Dutch Government were now recognising atrosities they committed on Indonesians way back in 1946 ("first I knew of such an event") and are now formally apologising.
It was sad to see the interview of one of the few remaining old ladies who lost both their husband and sons at the time.
When I grew up. We were only told what we had to know!!!!
With world news at our door step, it's interesting to now see the other side of the coin ....
conch posted 12-10-2011 09:01 AM ET (US)
Your right Binkster people forget the past. Jane Fonda (Hanoi Jane) comes to mind.Many veterans or their families post here we will not forget.
Chuck
Binkster posted 12-10-2011 10:24 AM ET (US)
I don't know of anyone who disrespects combat veterans of any wars, the folks who deserve disrespect are the politicians who promote wars and themselves are draft dodgers like VP Dick Cheney. How that coward ever made it to that high office we will never know. here is his "Vietnam" record from Wikipedia
When Cheney became eligible for the draft, during the Vietnam War, he applied for and received five draft deferments.[16][17] In 1989, The Washington Post writer George C. Wilson interviewed Cheney as the next Secretary of Defense; when asked about his deferments, Cheney reportedly said, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."[18] Cheney testified during his confirmation hearings in 1989 that he received deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, owing to sub par academic performance and the need to work to pay for his education. Initially, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was only taking older men. When he became eligible for the draft, he applied for four deferments in sequence. He applied for his fifth exemption on January 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant. He was granted 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. In January 1967, Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.[
gnr posted 12-10-2011 12:24 PM ET (US)
Sorry to let you down Menemsha.
I'll try and pick up my game.
LOL

"Freethinking" Tone?
LOL That might be the funniest thing you've ever contributed.
LOL
gusgus posted 12-10-2011 02:27 PM ET (US)
From whales, to fails and hails, is quite the swing of subject matter, but I will adapt.
The most important thing in being humane is retaining the childhood value of flexibility. Able to listen, hear and see others opinions and values as important, as pertinent.
I am both a VietNam Vet and spent awhile in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi in the last years. Please, there is no need to thank me.
Burning and Binkster are correct, our military and culture are good. Our American people left and right, are good. Good people condemning our troops is not new and has never stopped. But that has got to be placed in the "so what" column, it doesn't matter because it is not how these fools react, or what they say, but it is entirely about how we react to them and to the politics of today.
The last 5 years has seen an amazing transformation of culture. Religion is bad, politics are bad, military is bad, fossil fuel is bad, everything is judged on one fact,,,,BAD!
I am not to old to remember when bad was good.
Our war isn't in Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran. It is here. The war is to keep our culture. To not let it be stolen by progressives or conservatives or liberals, or libertarians, but to keep our American culture close to our hearts.
Talking about religion in a positive light has been taken away from us. Talking about protecting the nation with military strength in a positive light has been stolen. Oh we pat each other on the back for serving, in a foolish self serving manner, then turn right around and trash Cheny, Bush, Powell, McCain and any number of our veterans and distinguished leaders, who are/were our troops and heros, for doing the job we hired them to do and doing the jobs we need done to protect our culture and our country. We sit in front of our confusers and delete things we believe in from our email, so we don't offend others if we forwarded them. Yet we send boobs, butts and hateful/hurtful jokes and moral lack, without reservation. Things that we need to discuss are put in the trashbin. Things we need to make an informed political or religious decision in voting for the leaders of our culture are electronically killed, in a time when they should be discussed at a minimum.

contender posted 12-10-2011 03:37 PM ET (US)
GUSGUS: well said
Binkie: Kinda like 3 purple hearts...
egres posted 12-10-2011 03:40 PM ET (US)
Ahoy Me Lads..Capt Ritz here.
Got to address this hail from the Starboard deck...
Well Gus,
Spoken like a true Veteran to be sure.
You do bring some valuable and important points.
To be a soldier is and always will be an Honorable Trade.
To talk about the US Marines and Seals
The French Foreign Legion
The Canadian Royal Vingt Deux
Will evoke of times and people going the job honorably.
Let us all remember them for the unselfishness and dedication to their causes.
And I would strongly suggest that they will ever be reared from a vastly different cloth
As opposed to the constant campaigning names been politically appointed and somehow voted in by the everyday Joes out there.
Would our appointed Leaders in their roles put their lives at risk as our soldiers do?
I would leave that up to your perceptions.
On a lighter and pragmatic slant
I think that if the tangible entities called Whales could somehow be polled..
They would give just as good and logic answers to the intrusion within their habitat;in our human roles;as we could perceive of our actions in theirs.
Isn't that how WAR are usually started?
"They say the sea is cold, but the sea contains
the hottest blood of all, and the wildest, the most urgent."
DH Lawrence.
Binkster posted 12-10-2011 06:33 PM ET (US)
gusgus says;
then turn right around and trash Cheney, Bush, Powell, McCain and any number of our veterans.
Fact is, both Cheney and Dubbya are draft dodgers not veterans, and what does religion have to do with politics anyway. This county was formed for freedom of religion or freedom from religion. its not like the Mideast where you have to be of a certain religion or its curtains for you and your family.
gusgus posted 12-10-2011 06:51 PM ET (US)
Cheny and Bush did what the system you either supported or ignored let them do, legally.
I disagree with your claims. They served in very honorable positions in our country. They both fought for and bled for this land.
They are heros to many of us, it is statements like yours which disgusts me.
gusgus posted 12-10-2011 07:25 PM ET (US)
Bink, maybe a study class of the constitutional history of America and how the bill of rights became to be would help you see this country was founded largely because of religion.
Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. Nor is the term or meaning of veteran, owned by the US military.
Bush served in the US military for 4 years.
Air National Guard members could volunteer for active duty service with the Air Force in a program called Palace Alert, which deployed F-102 pilots to Europe and Southeast Asia, including Vietnam and Thailand. According to three pilots from Bush's squadron, Bush inquired about this program but was advised by the base commander that he did not have the necessary experience (500 hours) at the time and that the F-102 would soon be retired. He attempted to go regular military, but was denied.
Cheney served almost his entire life. Beginning in 1969! He missed 1978 and 1994 thru 2000. He served in our government got 31 years!
Binkster posted 12-11-2011 12:29 AM ET (US)
gusgus
What you believe is what you believe, no comment from me. LOL. This website went through a difficult time during the last presidential election year of '08. A lot of innuendos, BS, threats and nasty comments went on around here for months. You weren't here. Jimh shut down the META forum which was a forum for topics other than Boston Whalers and boating topics because of the above mentioned problems. There were 'members' throwing words around here that had no knowledge of boating not to mention Boston Whalers. After the election most disappeared. I hope it doesn't happen again, but I expect it will. I promised jimh that I would take no part in it, and I won't, and I hope you won't either. I see where this thread is going. It needs to get back on topic or else closed down.
No more comments from me on this thread..
gusgus posted 12-11-2011 09:34 AM ET (US)
Binks,
Our discussion isn't within the title of the page and know that social and political discussions often become heated. I have been guilty of that too.
My issue is politically biased character attacks. While in office, the door has got to be left open to judge any governmental official, however the exact moment they leave office they should have their character left alone. Past actions while in office are always on the table.
There are many characters that we all could find reasons to despise that others will hold in their hearts as their heros or role models. Just remember that no matter who is attacked someone will disagree.
I guess the point that I would like everyone to hear is attack the message, not the messenger.
Now I have a question, Back on subject. Do whales come into Puget Sound? How far in or down in Puget Sound can seals, whales or Orchas be expected?
gnr posted 12-11-2011 10:33 AM ET (US)
Wow!
From multiple account having, identity hiding super troll to executive vice-president of moderatin'.
Congrats!
Binkster posted 12-11-2011 11:20 AM ET (US)
gnr
You forgot Enforcer, I know where you all live. LOL
I hope we can keep this place a political debate free environment this time around.
Of course if you ever get back to the Tampa area, we'll go fishing, not from trees though.
IGN posted 12-11-2011 01:06 PM ET (US)
Whales come all the way in to Puget Sound as far south as the waters around the state capital in Olympia. The majority of them stay in the waters from Seattle/Tacoma north.
gusgus posted 12-11-2011 01:57 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the information.
It does make harassment a risk locally then. I had been thinking it would only be offshore with some sightings in the Juan De Fuca Straight. WOW did I guess poorly.
jimh posted 12-11-2011 03:05 PM ET (US)
I think both the whales and CONTINUOUSWAVE have been harassed enough.
[Thread closed]
Let's try to maintain course on boating-related topics. Thank you.

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