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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area 2012 Fuel Tank Regulations
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Author | Topic: 2012 Fuel Tank Regulations |
frontier |
posted 12-03-2011 12:32 PM ET (US)
Stopped in a Boston Whaler dealer yesterday. They had a 2012 150 Montauk in the showroom that had a new style of 6-gallon portable [fuel] tank with a valve in the hose line. They said the new gas tanks are required to maintain [4-PSI] pressure to "make the gas last longer." He did say [the 6-gallon portable fuel tanks] are a lot more money than the old style. [What are] the specifics [of any regulations related to on-deck fuel tanks to be sold with Boston Whaler boats in 2012]? Can't seem to find info on the Attwood or Moeller web sites. |
seahorse |
posted 12-03-2011 01:02 PM ET (US)
It has to comply with the new EPA evaporative emission regulations that first started Jan. 2011. You will find that the new low permeation hoses, primer balls,and fuel tanks have jumped in price because of this. Boats with built in tanks have to have a carbon cannister like your car does or a pressure valve system of sorts. Each corner of the built in gas tank has to have a vent tube and each has to be accessible for inspection and servicing. |
Mambo Minnow |
posted 12-03-2011 01:45 PM ET (US)
Do these new environmental [specifications] do anything to eliminate venting to the atmosphere such that we will no longer have to be concerned with ethanol absorbing water moisture? We don't have to deal with [venting of the fuel tank to the atmosphere] on our autos, so why not [not have to deal with venting of the fuel tank to the atmosphere on] boats? |
jimh |
posted 12-03-2011 03:04 PM ET (US)
I am not clear from the narrative description what feature is included in the new 2012 on-deck fuel tank. Let me ask this: Does the fuel tank have some sort of pressure release valve that opens when the internal pressure in the fuel tank exceeds 4-PSI? If not, please explain what the mention of 4-PSI is supposed to mean, and how does having a pressure of 4-PSI somewhere in the fuel system lead to the storage life of the gasoline fuel being improved. It is not at all clear to me what is being achieved with 4-PSI of pressure somewhere. |
FlyAU98 |
posted 12-03-2011 09:00 PM ET (US)
[Changed topic; please start a new thread if you want to change the topic. We are discussing the 2012 fuel tank regulations. Thanks.] |
frontier |
posted 12-03-2011 11:27 PM ET (US)
[This article contained nothing but a URL. Please do not post articles that contain nothing but a URL. I think the intent was to say that the valve that was seen on a Boston Whaler boat's fuel tank is described in the URL.] |
Jerry Townsend |
posted 12-04-2011 12:15 AM ET (US)
Having to maintain a 4-PSI in a fuel tank does not make sense - unless you use a compressor. That is - as you are normally drawing fuel from your tank, that volume of fuel has to be replaced with air or else it will pull a vaccume - which is one of the purposes of the vent. The ONLY way to have a positive pressure is via a compressor. The only fuel vapor venting from our tanks today is via temperature variations. Wonder if EPA is in business with the "valve" outfits? --- Jerry/Idaho |
jimh |
posted 12-04-2011 08:41 AM ET (US)
I don't know where the figure of 4-PSI came from, nor has any explanation been offered. My best guess is that someone made up the figure of 4-PSI and there is really no significance to it in any regulations. From the regulations linked above by Seahorse, I see this paragraph:
quote: I don't know where in the regulations the acromym "psig" is defined. I presume it means "pounds per square inch" or something akin to that. If someone finds the definition of "psig" in the regulations please give us a pointer to where you found it. In the Mercury literature (which was implied above when an article containing no content other than a URL that pointed to it was given) the following statement is made:
quote: It is not clear to me if the requirement cited by Mercury is due to federal regulations in the emissions area or simply due to the necessity of preventing overflow and spillage of fuel, which I assume would violate other regulations forbidding spills. If there is a section of the emission regulations that requires this sort of valve, please give me a pointer to it. |
seahorse |
posted 12-04-2011 09:41 AM ET (US)
Here is a link to the Federal Register that shows how our EPA bureaucrats think and act about portable fuel tanks for outboards. It mentions both the diurnal emissions and the prevention of spraying gas when disconnecting the line and when opening the cap. |
Mambo Minnow |
posted 12-04-2011 09:45 AM ET (US)
It's so ridiculous the EPA is concerned with environmental pollution from a six gallon portable tank, when industrial smokestacks still pour out volumes of toxins that create acid rain and drop mercury contamination in our ponds and lakes. |
WhalerAce |
posted 12-04-2011 10:01 AM ET (US)
Normall, psig mean pounds per square inch, gauge. That is, there should be 4 psi over the ambient (whatever the abmient happens to be at that time). |
Peter |
posted 12-04-2011 11:01 AM ET (US)
After looking at the valve on the Mercury link, it seems quite clear that the EPA plucked all the low hanging fruit a long time ago and this regulation is for keeping government regulators in business. That valve is trouble waiting to happen. |
L H G |
posted 12-04-2011 11:27 AM ET (US)
Aren't these the same guys that give us all those ridiculous HP ratings on outboards that show all 90's, or 225's or whatever, put out EXACTLY the same HP. You know, the ones that Jim loves to quote as gospel. |
seahorse |
posted 12-04-2011 11:42 AM ET (US)
LHG, I think you may be confusing the manufacturer's rated horsepower (listed in KW and is also known as advertised hp) with the actual dyno tested horsepower (again in KW) that the motor actually produced while being tested for EPA emissions. Both figures are available in the EPA annual emission data online. |
sosmerc |
posted 12-04-2011 12:03 PM ET (US)
I recently purchased a Quicksilver 3 gallon portable tank with the required "demand valve". I bought it specifically because I wanted to test it to see if this valve creates any additional restriction when the engine is running. I hooked up a vacuum guage and a high pressure electric fuel pump (to simulate the flow of an engine) and compared my test results to an identical Quicksilver 3 gallon tank without the demand valve. They both tested the same as far as restriction. But I am still puzzled as to what this demand valve is really supposed to do. The tank has a vented cap...so if you leave the vent open the tank should not become "pressurized". If you close the vent and the tank sits out in the sun it is going to build up pressure. Is the demand valve then going to open and relieve the pressure (by also spilling the fuel out onto the deck of the boat??) Or is it supposed to let air into the tank when it builds a vacuum?? From testing I can say that you must leave the vent open when running or you will build a vacuum and create restriction. I am also puzzled in that the tank comes with a large sticker on it that says "not to be sold in California". I guess California has different requirements than the EPA...at least in the year 2011. At any rate, I hope to make a test run today (despite the chilly 39 degrees outside) for my first run in my 15 Whaler with a used 1996 Merc F50 on it with a new Spitfire 4 blade aluminum 12P. |
Jefecinco |
posted 12-04-2011 04:35 PM ET (US)
This July when I left my 10 liter plastic fuel tank in the boat with the vent closed I found it had swollen to the extent that I was unable to move it from beneath the thwart to open the vent for running. Since it was pressurized I just started the engine and went down the lagoon. Predictably I forgot to open the vent until the engine stopped. Perhaps the 4 PSIG pop off vent will be useful for those of us not used to portable tanks. Butch |
sosmerc |
posted 12-04-2011 05:35 PM ET (US)
Don't forget to open the vent if you run portable tanks. That slow buildup of vacuum in the tank slowly restricts your fuel supply. If you are running your engine very hard that restriction will "lean" the engine out and could result in catastrophic failure. |
Hoosier |
posted 12-04-2011 07:16 PM ET (US)
Have I got this right? Take Butch's scenario and you have an over pressurized tank and can't get to the cap to vent it. With the "new, better, safer" tanks the valve will vent to the atmosphere once the internal pressure exceeds 5 psig, so the tank can never get so blown up by being over pressurized that it gets stuck under the seat. |
sosmerc |
posted 12-04-2011 09:25 PM ET (US)
I guess I'll have to set up another test...I'll use a hand pump and pressurize the tank and see what happens. If the tank is full and this valve opens up to relieve pressure...it will be interesting to see if it spews fuel out of the valve. |
jimh |
posted 12-04-2011 10:02 PM ET (US)
L H G says:
quote: Larry--I think you mean I am supposed to abandon dynamometer measurements in favor of the horsepower numbers you invent out of your active imagination? You know the ones you dream up that always show Mercury engines are ten percent more powerful than everyone else. |
L H G |
posted 12-05-2011 12:26 AM ET (US)
I would admit my post was poorly written, and had nothing to do with Mercury. I was trying to say I don't have much use for the EPA, whether it would be their HP ratings, E-10, E-15, these costly new fuel tank requirements, or a thousand other things they are in to. Can we selectively like them or dislike them depending on our own point of view? Since I don't like the operation, I'll stay out of future EPA discussions. If you guys want to praise them, and think they are doing great things for the country and the business environment, it's fine by me. But they did kill off OMC before it's time, since the Company wasn't technically sophisticated enough to deal with EPA emission requirements. |
jimh |
posted 12-05-2011 04:12 PM ET (US)
Larry--How about leaving the thread alone and let us discuss fuel tank and fuel line changes for 2012, without having to get the usual shots in about brands other than Mercury. Thanks. |
Dave Sutton |
posted 12-05-2011 04:42 PM ET (US)
"If someone finds the definition of "psig" in the regulations please give us a pointer to where you found it." PSIG = Per Square Inch Gauge PSIA = Per Square Inch Absolute Meaning: PSIG is measured in relationship to a "zero" being at normal sea level atmospheric pressure, where in actual fact normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7 PSIA, 29.92 inches of mercury, 1 BAR, and 1013 Hectopascals. "Guage" takes these values (all the same, just in different measurement systems), and nulls them out to zero. PSIA is measured in relationship to a vacuum... this would be useful if you lived on the International Space Station. 14.7 PSIA = 0 PSIG 18.7 PSIA = 4 PSIG
. |
sosmerc |
posted 12-05-2011 11:50 PM ET (US)
Did some further testing today. Plumbed my Stevens Instrument company hand pressure pump in to the end of the fuel line assembly and then pumped in some pressure. With the tank vent closed, the tank built up pressure to as high as I could pump. And yes, the plastic tank was starting to expand. There was no "venting" via this so called "demand valve". The tank held pressure until I physically opened the tank vent. So again, what is this "demand valve" supposed to do?? And why are they "not to be sold in California"? |
Jerry Townsend |
posted 12-06-2011 12:58 AM ET (US)
Dave - almost. PSIA is the pressure in pounds force per square inch - absolute. PSIA is the gage pressure plus the atmospheric pressure. PSIG is the pressure in pounds force per square inch - as measured on a pressure gage. The main purpose of the absolute value is a standard applicable to any altitude. That is, the properties of fluids, such as water and steam, are documented (in standard reference books) in PSIA - which makes that data applicable at any altutude - sea level, the contential divide - or yes, in space. But, for our purposes - we are generally talking in PSIG units. And, as far as this "demand valve" is concerned - EPA is wasting more of our money - and/or they are smok'in something. ---- Jerry/Idaho |
Jefecinco |
posted 12-06-2011 09:44 AM ET (US)
SOSMERC, Thanks for the testing. I guess I'll keep my old tank until it is no longer useful. Since my assumption was incorrect I have no idea what it's all about?? Butch |
goldstem |
posted 12-06-2011 12:08 PM ET (US)
is this really this mysterious? it seems to me this 'demand valve' allows the tank to draw in air, when a slight vacuum is created such as when the engine is running, but does not release pressure (and thus vapor) ie when the tank is sitting in the sun but the engine is not running. yes this will reduce emissions, as most of us probably leave the vent open all the time, not just when the motor is running. it also makes my life easier as I don't have to keep reminding the members of our sailing club to open the vents when they run the rescue boats. |
sosmerc |
posted 12-06-2011 08:26 PM ET (US)
According to my testing, you MUST open the vent while running or you will build up a vacuum in the tank and that WILL cause running issues. The tank even came with a warning about this. I believe that the intent of this "demand valve" is that it will permit some pressure to build up in the tank while the tank is just sitting (not being used) and will supposedly bleed off any pressure above a preset PSI...probably in the vicinity of 4-5 PSI. However, when I tested my tank by applying pressure.....it never did relieve any pressure. Maybe the valve on my tank malfunctioned...even though it was brand new and never before used. |
dbrown |
posted 12-06-2011 10:13 PM ET (US)
I believe the only purpose of the Fuel Demand Valve is to prevent pressurized fuel (pressure developed in the fuel tank) from reaching the engine, which can cause problems such as fuel spraying when removing or installing fuel line connectors and possibly flooding the engine with fuel from the increase in pressure. I would consider it a regulating or throttling valve. From what I understand, the fuel filler cap will allow an increase in pressure in the fuel tank of 5 PSI before venting it to atmosphere. Why it did not do that when sosmerc tested it is the question. Maybe it takes a very slow rise in pressure for the vent to perform properly. |
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