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Author Topic:   The Powerful Siren Song...

pcrussell50 posted 08-09-2012 05:38 PM ET (US)
...to buy new.
You have heard me over the past three years waxing eloquent about the financial and RRR (Reduce Recycle Reuse) sensibilities, regarding keeping neglected but fundamentally healthy older outboards in service.
Well, even I am not immune from the pull. My trusty tow vehicle, '97 explorer, 4.0L sohc v6, has been plagued with a bedeviling misfire for the past 6 months.. I've eliminated all obvious external causes, except for a random stack up of externalities causing this. Now it's time for compression and leak down checks on the offending cylinders. If bad cylinders are the cause, a rebuild of this complex engine will not make sense.
Sooo, Ive been looking for a replacement. The pickings are slim unless I'm willing to be recklessly wasteful. It is important to me that I have "right size" towing capacity (3500-NO more than 5000lbs), manual transmission, and one cabin, (iow, no pickups). I LOVE. the Honda Odyessy, but it's just, too, big--and has no manual transmission, (shame). This pretty much left a field of one: the Nissan Xterra. Now the mechanic has called and he -thinks- he has fixed it, (heh, well see), and I am seriously bummed. I was actually looking forward to flushing good money down the "new" rathole, such is the power of this "narcotic of new". And I chose the metaphor very carefully, with the full weight of its connotation in mind.
I have been trying mightily to keep my logical left brain to bear on this, out interest in protecting my family's future, and my own personal disdain for waste and environmental impact of waste--where there is no greater waste than removal and replacement of serviceable, complex equipment.
So anyway, I'm here to commiserate with you guys who have or wanted to flush good money on a new outboard when your old workhorse could have gone on for another decade or two, after a repair bill 1/10th or less than the cost of that new'n'shiny.
-Peter
contender posted 08-09-2012 06:23 PM ET (US)
Have been saying this for years, A person wants a new outboard, nothing wrong with his, just old (I will use one of my own old outboards as an example) I have a Yamaha 1990 250, I do not have an hour meter so I do not know how many hours the engine has. The engine cranks up all the time I get 1.9 miles per gallon (25 Contender). Gas is about $3.5 per gallon. A new 250 Yamaha 4 stroke is about $23000 plus another .06% for tax (about $1400) and another $1500 for mounting rigging and prop, controls. So now I'm around $27000. for an engine that will get maybe 3 miles to the gallon? I sure could purchase a lot of fuel for the $27000.
tjxtreme posted 08-09-2012 06:53 PM ET (US)
It is a medical phenomenon. I was plagued by truck-osis for the last four years... and finally just caved on a new-to-me Tacoma, swapping out my Subaru with 195k miles. The Tacoma (also with a manual tranny) should be a much better tow vehicle. Sometimes you just gotta live your life and treat yourself (this was my justification, at least).
PeteB88 posted 08-10-2012 06:14 AM ET (US)
I am not a brand new car buyer but like 'em a few years old, low miles. Odyssey is a great vehicle. I pull Outrage 17 w/ 4 Runner, late 90s, low milage and a real 4WD w/ High - low gear box, locking rear differential (you could pull down a house with it). I also do very little highway hauling with it and like the vehicle for going on backroads and firetrails in local National Forests and to access hard to get to river spots in fall for steelhead and salmon fishing. It is also amazing in snow and we get a lot of it but no mountain driving. It is also a six. It is an automatic and that's fine.
I used to pull my 13 with a, ready for this, 2000 something Camry with 5 speed manual and standard engine! That is not a common rig and I think it was built in Canada. I am a very competent driver but I really did not like the stick shift for pulling the boat up boat ramps. Now that might be different with a more powerful rig and real truck unit.
I am considering another tow vehicle, I liked Buckalew's Ford pickup and a couple good friends are very happy w/ Cumins diesel pickups and the others, GM and Ford. I am not sure I want a pickup but diesel on the list because CFO is thinking she wants a smaller Airstream or vintage Shasta.
For now the 4 Runner is great, entirely reliable, milage about 20 MPH, needs a little work and it's paid for. I don't like to push it much over 60 when towing the bigger boat, just doesn't feel right for some reason. I run Matrix for everyday, CFO runs Accord. I say go drive a few, shunt off some of that emotion and you will make an objective decision.
c1walts posted 08-10-2012 08:49 AM ET (US)
With keeping sensibilities in mind, I would never buy brand new. At the most I would consider something 3 years old or older. Also keeping sensibilities in mind, what is wrong with American vehicles if looking for new 'n' shiny? Your purchase dollars would be staying in the States.
Phil T posted 08-10-2012 09:42 AM ET (US)
Late model used car and truck prices are very high.
A 2010 Pilot (tow up to 5k) with 45k is only 4-5k less than new. Used to. E 10k less.
Manual transmission? Seriously? Modern automatic transmission driven vehicles get better mileage than manual transmissions.
I suggest you do some serious car/truck research.
gnr posted 08-10-2012 10:19 AM ET (US)
That has been my experience also. Around here these types of vehicles used with some life left in them bring big dollars You have to go back 4 years and 60+ thousand miles to see any significant savings. Here in rust country it makes little sense.
I went through this with the last two trucks I bought. A 4-5 year old rig with 60k or brand new for 5k more.
It's a no brainer, epecially up here in the rust belt. I would still be driving my 02 F150 that had 106k on if the rust didn't get it.
It was painful to pull the trigger on a new payment after not having one for so long. However, the ten year newer truck is far and away a better rig than the 02 in performace, fuel economy and creature comforts.
My fun car is a 1989. My outboard is a 1987. My motorcycle is a 1995. My tractor is a 1953 and my riding lawn mower is a 1969.
I generally don't like to buy new.
jcdawg83 posted 08-10-2012 03:21 PM ET (US)
You really might want to consider an older i.e. 10 years old, full size American SUV like an Expedition or Tahoe. You can probably find a nice, low mileage (100k miles or so) for $6-8k. The gas mileage will be only slightly worse than your Explorer and it will be a much better tow vehicle. Modern, read 2000 model and later, trucks will easily go 175-200,000 miles with reasonable maintenance.
A friend of mine had an Odysee and towed a 20ft center console boat with it and hated it as a tow vehicle. Towing the boat, it only got about 12 mpg, about the same as his '07 Expedition which pulled the boat much easier and more comfortably. The Xterra is a nice vehicle, but it's gas mileage is not good considering it's size and towing a 3500-5000 lb load would be quite a job for it.
I agree with your sentiments about not getting rid of a serviceable vehicle only for the sake of something "new". However, when the vehicle you have no longer is reliable or capable; I think the next best thing is to buy a used vehicle.
andrey320 posted 08-10-2012 04:40 PM ET (US)
You hit a close to heart note there, Peter.
My tow car, a 1993 Toyota Camry V6 station wagon, has recently developed a minor intermittent missfire. It was enough to get me worried and take it to the shop. I have some car repair experience but do not have the time to work on the car. I had the mechanic change the plugs/wires/cap&rotor which seems to have cured the missfire. But I also had the mechanic do a compression test. The results were 5 of the 6 cylinders at 155-160 psi with one reading low 140s. The spec on these V6's is 140-175 with no >20 variance.
These results awoke a worry in me that I thought I got over. Over the past two years owning the Camry, I've put about 12K miles on it, with 4K being tow miles. It's done great with minor issues. But knowing that the engine may be getting close to re-build / replacement time does not feel good. So I am in the same predicament - to keep or to sell....
If I do end up selling, I will probably get a Ford Crown Vicotia as a replacement....
rcbrownjr posted 08-10-2012 04:43 PM ET (US)
The 2004-2009 4Runner models may be a viable option for you. I have a 2WD V6 pulling a 1986 Montauk - 2,000+ lbs. You know a boat is back there, but it is still a comfortable ride. I don't tow over 70 MPH with it. The V6 is rated to 5,000 lbs towing, but I wouldn't want to pull that without the V8.
Average 18/23/20 MPG City/Hwy/Combined, 17+ MPG towing. Great low end torque (282 ft/lbs @ 3,800 RPM) and 245 hp for 4,000 lb SUV. No problem recovering at the ramp.
The new body style (2010-2012) is 10-15% heavier and feels every bit of it if you drive one. The engine revs much higher to generate power. Toyota also eliminated the V8 option and added an I4. Still trying to figure that one out.

pcrussell50 posted 08-10-2012 06:39 PM ET (US)
Are the 04-09 4Runners available with a manual transmission?
-Peter
tjxtreme posted 08-10-2012 08:22 PM ET (US)
No, the last year was about 2000.
pcrussell50 posted 08-10-2012 11:12 PM ET (US)
Bummer. I would have liked a "hard shell 'Taco". And that's why the Xterra was pretty much the only one on the list. I would consider one of the "sports car" automatics that will not under any circumstances shift up or down without your command to do so, and will blip the throttle to rev-match downshifts--but good luck getting one of those in small SUV.
C1walts, I always bias my vehicle choices to American--if they give me what I want. But I'm a pretty serious gear head, and nobody does hear head better than the Germans, these days.
-Peter
martyn1075 posted 08-11-2012 12:31 AM ET (US)
contender... I like your way of thinking its probably still cheaper as well just to fix it when or if the parts start breaking down. Another positive is you will not take a huge hit when you sell. The new engines are always a nice feature for many buyers but so many don't want to pay squat for them so you end up taking a huge hit. One positive with a new engine I got to say is most are better on fuel and if you are a charter guy or a die hard fisherman then you really want the best reliable engine you can afford that or invest in a really nice kicker.
Martyn
pcrussell50 posted 08-12-2012 04:20 PM ET (US)

quote:
Manual transmission? Seriously? Modern automatic transmission driven vehicles get better mileage than manual transmissions.
I suggest you do some serious car/truck research.
No need, mate. I do it almost daily--I write custom engine calibartions for EFI engines--mostly race engines--that I built myself. I read the auto tranny strategy algorithms, and peruse tables, functions, and scalars in the calibration itself all the time, even if I'm only just disabling them. I'm no luddite. The only place carburetors have in my life is outboards and yard tools.
The reason I want a manual transmission in my tow vehicle is that trucks and SUV's are already so CRUSHINGLY boring to drive, (and it's even worse when they are bigger, which is another reason besides waste, that I don't want to oversize), that a manual transmission will give at least a little ember of kinesthetic joy.
To your point, with PCM's now controlling converter lockup and shift strategies, modern slushboxes have improved their inefficiency dramatically. Ironically, and sadly for your perspective, where they are still weak is in towing applications, where transmission coolers are all but required in most cases. Where manual transmissions have lost ground is that the increasinly bland, testosterone-deficient culture we have adopted right here in our own country, demands automatics. Do a little google searching as the percentage of Corvettes sold with automatics,(sigh). These days, manuals are sometimes an afterhought, with ratios and sizing not always well chosen for the application. There is also an artificial "bump" in the window sticker mileage for automatics, because their control calibrations are (understandably) optimized to kill it on the EPA test. Towing is NOT part of that.
In any event, thanks to those who have chimed in, and provided info that I might have overlooked, (tj on the 4Runner). My original point was to commiserate with those who have been driven to buy new, even if it did not make economic sense--especially since I've been vocal about railing against it. I am not immune from the pull, it seems.
-Peter
Hilinercc posted 08-14-2012 10:17 AM ET (US)
Contender - Its nice to hear someone feel the same way I do about old outboards.
I have a 1998 Evinrude OceanPro 200 on the stern of my 22' Hiliner center console.
I keep it in real nice shape, starts and runs strong, and I really like this engine.
But I'm constantly bombarded with comments from folks who see it, and say "you should get a 4 stroke" or "why not go Etec?"
Why fix something thats not broke?, a replacement 200 Etec is about 16k+, I can sure buy alot of gas and XD30 for that!
If and when it ever dies, I can replace the powerhead for about 5k, so I still come out pretty well.
I like the etecs but 15k+ for an outboard is a little too rich for my blood right now. maybe when I retire....

wezie posted 08-14-2012 11:09 AM ET (US)
I looked at your web site. You are having too much fun with all those gears!
The new smell gets us all. We are programmed for it and it for us.
If unreliable, the old ride will go away.
New or used, with your abilities, a good used vehicle, may be the bet.
What ever, Good Luck.

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Author	Topic: The Powerful Siren Song...
pcrussell50	posted 08-09-2012 05:38 PM ET (US) ...to buy new. You have heard me over the past three years waxing eloquent about the financial and RRR (Reduce Recycle Reuse) sensibilities, regarding keeping neglected but fundamentally healthy older outboards in service. Well, even I am not immune from the pull. My trusty tow vehicle, '97 explorer, 4.0L sohc v6, has been plagued with a bedeviling misfire for the past 6 months.. I've eliminated all obvious external causes, except for a random stack up of externalities causing this. Now it's time for compression and leak down checks on the offending cylinders. If bad cylinders are the cause, a rebuild of this complex engine will not make sense. Sooo, Ive been looking for a replacement. The pickings are slim unless I'm willing to be recklessly wasteful. It is important to me that I have "right size" towing capacity (3500-NO more than 5000lbs), manual transmission, and one cabin, (iow, no pickups). I LOVE. the Honda Odyessy, but it's just, too, big--and has no manual transmission, (shame). This pretty much left a field of one: the Nissan Xterra. Now the mechanic has called and he -thinks- he has fixed it, (heh, well see), and I am seriously bummed. I was actually looking forward to flushing good money down the "new" rathole, such is the power of this "narcotic of new". And I chose the metaphor very carefully, with the full weight of its connotation in mind. I have been trying mightily to keep my logical left brain to bear on this, out interest in protecting my family's future, and my own personal disdain for waste and environmental impact of waste--where there is no greater waste than removal and replacement of serviceable, complex equipment. So anyway, I'm here to commiserate with you guys who have or wanted to flush good money on a new outboard when your old workhorse could have gone on for another decade or two, after a repair bill 1/10th or less than the cost of that new'n'shiny. -Peter
contender	posted 08-09-2012 06:23 PM ET (US) Have been saying this for years, A person wants a new outboard, nothing wrong with his, just old (I will use one of my own old outboards as an example) I have a Yamaha 1990 250, I do not have an hour meter so I do not know how many hours the engine has. The engine cranks up all the time I get 1.9 miles per gallon (25 Contender). Gas is about $3.5 per gallon. A new 250 Yamaha 4 stroke is about $23000 plus another .06% for tax (about $1400) and another $1500 for mounting rigging and prop, controls. So now I'm around $27000. for an engine that will get maybe 3 miles to the gallon? I sure could purchase a lot of fuel for the $27000.
tjxtreme	posted 08-09-2012 06:53 PM ET (US) It is a medical phenomenon. I was plagued by truck-osis for the last four years... and finally just caved on a new-to-me Tacoma, swapping out my Subaru with 195k miles. The Tacoma (also with a manual tranny) should be a much better tow vehicle. Sometimes you just gotta live your life and treat yourself (this was my justification, at least).
PeteB88	posted 08-10-2012 06:14 AM ET (US) I am not a brand new car buyer but like 'em a few years old, low miles. Odyssey is a great vehicle. I pull Outrage 17 w/ 4 Runner, late 90s, low milage and a real 4WD w/ High - low gear box, locking rear differential (you could pull down a house with it). I also do very little highway hauling with it and like the vehicle for going on backroads and firetrails in local National Forests and to access hard to get to river spots in fall for steelhead and salmon fishing. It is also amazing in snow and we get a lot of it but no mountain driving. It is also a six. It is an automatic and that's fine. I used to pull my 13 with a, ready for this, 2000 something Camry with 5 speed manual and standard engine! That is not a common rig and I think it was built in Canada. I am a very competent driver but I really did not like the stick shift for pulling the boat up boat ramps. Now that might be different with a more powerful rig and real truck unit. I am considering another tow vehicle, I liked Buckalew's Ford pickup and a couple good friends are very happy w/ Cumins diesel pickups and the others, GM and Ford. I am not sure I want a pickup but diesel on the list because CFO is thinking she wants a smaller Airstream or vintage Shasta. For now the 4 Runner is great, entirely reliable, milage about 20 MPH, needs a little work and it's paid for. I don't like to push it much over 60 when towing the bigger boat, just doesn't feel right for some reason. I run Matrix for everyday, CFO runs Accord. I say go drive a few, shunt off some of that emotion and you will make an objective decision.
c1walts	posted 08-10-2012 08:49 AM ET (US) With keeping sensibilities in mind, I would never buy brand new. At the most I would consider something 3 years old or older. Also keeping sensibilities in mind, what is wrong with American vehicles if looking for new 'n' shiny? Your purchase dollars would be staying in the States.
Phil T	posted 08-10-2012 09:42 AM ET (US) Late model used car and truck prices are very high. A 2010 Pilot (tow up to 5k) with 45k is only 4-5k less than new. Used to. E 10k less. Manual transmission? Seriously? Modern automatic transmission driven vehicles get better mileage than manual transmissions. I suggest you do some serious car/truck research.
gnr	posted 08-10-2012 10:19 AM ET (US) That has been my experience also. Around here these types of vehicles used with some life left in them bring big dollars You have to go back 4 years and 60+ thousand miles to see any significant savings. Here in rust country it makes little sense. I went through this with the last two trucks I bought. A 4-5 year old rig with 60k or brand new for 5k more. It's a no brainer, epecially up here in the rust belt. I would still be driving my 02 F150 that had 106k on if the rust didn't get it. It was painful to pull the trigger on a new payment after not having one for so long. However, the ten year newer truck is far and away a better rig than the 02 in performace, fuel economy and creature comforts. My fun car is a 1989. My outboard is a 1987. My motorcycle is a 1995. My tractor is a 1953 and my riding lawn mower is a 1969. I generally don't like to buy new.
jcdawg83	posted 08-10-2012 03:21 PM ET (US) You really might want to consider an older i.e. 10 years old, full size American SUV like an Expedition or Tahoe. You can probably find a nice, low mileage (100k miles or so) for $6-8k. The gas mileage will be only slightly worse than your Explorer and it will be a much better tow vehicle. Modern, read 2000 model and later, trucks will easily go 175-200,000 miles with reasonable maintenance. A friend of mine had an Odysee and towed a 20ft center console boat with it and hated it as a tow vehicle. Towing the boat, it only got about 12 mpg, about the same as his '07 Expedition which pulled the boat much easier and more comfortably. The Xterra is a nice vehicle, but it's gas mileage is not good considering it's size and towing a 3500-5000 lb load would be quite a job for it. I agree with your sentiments about not getting rid of a serviceable vehicle only for the sake of something "new". However, when the vehicle you have no longer is reliable or capable; I think the next best thing is to buy a used vehicle.
andrey320	posted 08-10-2012 04:40 PM ET (US) You hit a close to heart note there, Peter. My tow car, a 1993 Toyota Camry V6 station wagon, has recently developed a minor intermittent missfire. It was enough to get me worried and take it to the shop. I have some car repair experience but do not have the time to work on the car. I had the mechanic change the plugs/wires/cap&rotor which seems to have cured the missfire. But I also had the mechanic do a compression test. The results were 5 of the 6 cylinders at 155-160 psi with one reading low 140s. The spec on these V6's is 140-175 with no >20 variance. These results awoke a worry in me that I thought I got over. Over the past two years owning the Camry, I've put about 12K miles on it, with 4K being tow miles. It's done great with minor issues. But knowing that the engine may be getting close to re-build / replacement time does not feel good. So I am in the same predicament - to keep or to sell.... If I do end up selling, I will probably get a Ford Crown Vicotia as a replacement....
rcbrownjr	posted 08-10-2012 04:43 PM ET (US) The 2004-2009 4Runner models may be a viable option for you. I have a 2WD V6 pulling a 1986 Montauk - 2,000+ lbs. You know a boat is back there, but it is still a comfortable ride. I don't tow over 70 MPH with it. The V6 is rated to 5,000 lbs towing, but I wouldn't want to pull that without the V8. Average 18/23/20 MPG City/Hwy/Combined, 17+ MPG towing. Great low end torque (282 ft/lbs @ 3,800 RPM) and 245 hp for 4,000 lb SUV. No problem recovering at the ramp. The new body style (2010-2012) is 10-15% heavier and feels every bit of it if you drive one. The engine revs much higher to generate power. Toyota also eliminated the V8 option and added an I4. Still trying to figure that one out.
pcrussell50	posted 08-10-2012 06:39 PM ET (US) Are the 04-09 4Runners available with a manual transmission? -Peter
tjxtreme	posted 08-10-2012 08:22 PM ET (US) No, the last year was about 2000.
pcrussell50	posted 08-10-2012 11:12 PM ET (US) Bummer. I would have liked a "hard shell 'Taco". And that's why the Xterra was pretty much the only one on the list. I would consider one of the "sports car" automatics that will not under any circumstances shift up or down without your command to do so, and will blip the throttle to rev-match downshifts--but good luck getting one of those in small SUV. C1walts, I always bias my vehicle choices to American--if they give me what I want. But I'm a pretty serious gear head, and nobody does hear head better than the Germans, these days. -Peter
martyn1075	posted 08-11-2012 12:31 AM ET (US) contender... I like your way of thinking its probably still cheaper as well just to fix it when or if the parts start breaking down. Another positive is you will not take a huge hit when you sell. The new engines are always a nice feature for many buyers but so many don't want to pay squat for them so you end up taking a huge hit. One positive with a new engine I got to say is most are better on fuel and if you are a charter guy or a die hard fisherman then you really want the best reliable engine you can afford that or invest in a really nice kicker. Martyn
pcrussell50	posted 08-12-2012 04:20 PM ET (US) quote: Manual transmission? Seriously? Modern automatic transmission driven vehicles get better mileage than manual transmissions. I suggest you do some serious car/truck research. No need, mate. I do it almost daily--I write custom engine calibartions for EFI engines--mostly race engines--that I built myself. I read the auto tranny strategy algorithms, and peruse tables, functions, and scalars in the calibration itself all the time, even if I'm only just disabling them. I'm no luddite. The only place carburetors have in my life is outboards and yard tools. The reason I want a manual transmission in my tow vehicle is that trucks and SUV's are already so CRUSHINGLY boring to drive, (and it's even worse when they are bigger, which is another reason besides waste, that I don't want to oversize), that a manual transmission will give at least a little ember of kinesthetic joy. To your point, with PCM's now controlling converter lockup and shift strategies, modern slushboxes have improved their inefficiency dramatically. Ironically, and sadly for your perspective, where they are still weak is in towing applications, where transmission coolers are all but required in most cases. Where manual transmissions have lost ground is that the increasinly bland, testosterone-deficient culture we have adopted right here in our own country, demands automatics. Do a little google searching as the percentage of Corvettes sold with automatics,(sigh). These days, manuals are sometimes an afterhought, with ratios and sizing not always well chosen for the application. There is also an artificial "bump" in the window sticker mileage for automatics, because their control calibrations are (understandably) optimized to kill it on the EPA test. Towing is NOT part of that. In any event, thanks to those who have chimed in, and provided info that I might have overlooked, (tj on the 4Runner). My original point was to commiserate with those who have been driven to buy new, even if it did not make economic sense--especially since I've been vocal about railing against it. I am not immune from the pull, it seems. -Peter
Hilinercc	posted 08-14-2012 10:17 AM ET (US) Contender - Its nice to hear someone feel the same way I do about old outboards. I have a 1998 Evinrude OceanPro 200 on the stern of my 22' Hiliner center console. I keep it in real nice shape, starts and runs strong, and I really like this engine. But I'm constantly bombarded with comments from folks who see it, and say "you should get a 4 stroke" or "why not go Etec?" Why fix something thats not broke?, a replacement 200 Etec is about 16k+, I can sure buy alot of gas and XD30 for that! If and when it ever dies, I can replace the powerhead for about 5k, so I still come out pretty well. I like the etecs but 15k+ for an outboard is a little too rich for my blood right now. maybe when I retire....
wezie	posted 08-14-2012 11:09 AM ET (US) I looked at your web site. You are having too much fun with all those gears! The new smell gets us all. We are programmed for it and it for us. If unreliable, the old ride will go away. New or used, with your abilities, a good used vehicle, may be the bet. What ever, Good Luck.