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Author Topic:   Salt water motors and white "gelatin"

pcrussell50 posted 09-06-2012 08:01 PM ET (US)
I intentionally did not put this in the repairs section because it is not asking for a solution or technique. If this topic morphs into something that requires attention I will start another thread in the repairs section asking what to do about it.
I've been partially disassembling the 40hp Yamaha, oil injected 2-stroke powering my classic sport 13, for purposes of routine maintenance, such as changing impellers, (good thing, because it was time).
Took the thermostat cover off and there was gelatinous white "pudding" in there along with crusty white stuff that I'll bet a dollar gets confused with salt--thing is, I touched my tongue to it and it was not the least bit salty. Not-one-bit.
What is it, and why is it gelatinous. It's obviously partially water-soluble, because it is in homogeneous mix with water, AND it is gelatinous.
Marine techs? Other?
-Peter
David Pendleton posted 09-06-2012 08:12 PM ET (US)
I applaud your sense of curiosity and adventure. I would never occur to me to taste "pudding" from anywhere other than my refrigerator.
andrey320 posted 09-06-2012 08:20 PM ET (US)
Was yours anything like mine?
http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/ 342148-flush-ummm-you-better-flush-warning-graphic-salt-build-up-pics. html
Flushing with hard water maybe...?
anthonylisske posted 09-06-2012 09:49 PM ET (US)
We are still talking about an outboard right?
pcrussell50 posted 09-06-2012 11:59 PM ET (US)

quote:
Was yours anything like mine?
Flushing with hard water maybe...?
Actually, my thermostat housing looks almost nothing like yours. Everything inside mine is either white and hard or a pure white emulsion. There is almost nothing that is that dingy green-brown like what's inside yours. Interesting.
It's the emulsion that is fascinating me. I've never seen it inside a car, (whether it be my racing car or my street cars).
Anyhow, my "buildups" might be the result of operating in a salt environment, but they in and of themselves are not salt, (because if they were, you could taste it).
Oh yeah, and because I'm just up the road from you a piece, I'm pretty sure I'm flushing with the same hard water you have there on your side of the Conejo grade. I think just about all the muni water here in Socal is hard.
-Peter
weekendwarrior posted 09-07-2012 08:13 AM ET (US)
The thread linked above had one person who commented that in his motor he had hard white deposits of calcium from the hard water that he flushed with. Maybe it's calcium, or the result of corroded metal? I don't know why it's gelatinous, that's the strange part. Unless it's mixed with grease, or you sucked up a jelly fish or something on the last trip?
pcrussell50 posted 09-07-2012 01:07 PM ET (US)
It's certainly mineral or corrosion, but not actual salt. I don't think there's much doubt about that. I had considered that oil might have caused the emulsion, but it sure was pure white and did not taste or smell of TCW-3. Further, how does 2-stroke oil make it's way into coolant passages? And how does it stay there with the massive throughput of water in an open cooling system?
-Peter
pcrussell50 posted 09-07-2012 01:22 PM ET (US)
I should add that the whole "thing" about buildups inside of outboards has been somewhat vexing. Even the racers over at the fast outboarding forum, folks for whom overhauls are common business, seem to have weak understanding of the phenomena involved.
Here are some things that I find interesting or have little factual scientific knowledge of cause and effect:
1) some buildups appear to be mineral
2) some buildups appear to be corrossion
3) some buildups are reported to be "hard as concrete"
4) some are soft and gelatainous
5) some buildups aren't stuck to metal passages, but are a sandlike precipitate
6) some people swear by Salt Away or similar products. BUT of all the suspicious things that build up and block cooling systems, salt is the one that is most water soluble. In fact, unless there are pockets in a cooling system where water stands, without flowing, I'm not sure how salt can build up anywhere. If that's true, what good is Salt Away? Why do some experts swear by it?
7) or id it's effect less of dissolving salt, and more of that it leaves some kind of protective coating that inhibits corrosion?
-Peter
wstr75 posted 09-07-2012 09:17 PM ET (US)
Did some research tonight and this sounds like the stuff that may be the gel on your equipment. Umm, you may not want to taste it again, because if it is a strong hydroxide, it could chemically burn tongue tissue.
http://tinyurl.com/czv2l8t
wstr75 posted 09-07-2012 09:18 PM ET (US)
http://tinyurl.com/czv2l8t/
pcrussell50 posted 09-07-2012 11:32 PM ET (US)
BINGO! A breakthrough. I bet that's it.
Now, where and what to do getting some kind of anode on this corrosion-prone Swiss watch.
I wonder if there are trim tab anodes for these amazing motors.
-Peter
Jeff posted 09-07-2012 11:46 PM ET (US)
I wonder if this is the same clear / milky gel that forms on top of the aluminium fuel tanks of Whalers that are holding a lot of water in the fuel tank cavity.
jhomeist posted 09-11-2012 02:09 PM ET (US)
If it is an aluminum hydroxide gel, I wouldn't worry about the tongue test. It's used as a common antacid. It's also soluble in acid, so you should be able to clean up the thermostat easily with a dilute acid like vinegar, but it's so weak you might have to let is soak overnight.
pcrussell50 posted 09-11-2012 04:01 PM ET (US)
It certainly was mild in and non-reactive on the tip of my tongue, in the extreme. What I'm more interested in is how to avoid it's buildup inside my motor.
Figuring out that it is NOT salt, that never dissolved, and built up over time was part of the process for me. And it makes perfect sense that it would not in fact actually be salt, since salt is water soluble. Where various forms of oxidation are not water soluble, and various forms of minerals/hardness in water may be soluble to a point, but something about being in an outboard seems to make it precipitate out, and eventually build up. The latter two processes and the means of aborting them, are most interesting to me.
-Peter
weekendwarrior posted 09-11-2012 06:08 PM ET (US)
I have a theory that running an engine hard (cruising on plane, pulling a skier, etc...) and then turning it off without a few minutes of idle time to cool down can cause build up. My logic is that turning the motor off immediately drains the cooling system, but this leaves the inside of the cooling passages wet with salt water. The heat will quickly steam the water away leaving behind salt and hard water deposits that don't easily rinse out. I have no proof to back this up, it's just my theory.
Mumbo Jumbo posted 09-11-2012 09:33 PM ET (US)
Peter-
My neighbor and I both had the same problem with a gray gel-like substance clogging the water passages on our 90hp two-stroke Yamaha engines.
We had to remove the heads and clean out the gel to solve over-heating problems. When the mechanic took the head from my engine to his shop to clean it, I used a popsicle stick and dug the firm gel from the passages on the motor that I could get to. Both of the motors were run almost daily in salt water during half the year and mine was never flushed with fresh water. Removing the gel solved our overheating problems.
Mumbo Jumbo posted 09-11-2012 09:38 PM ET (US)
CORRECTION:
Both of the motors were run almost daily in salt water during half the year and mine was never flushed with fresh water during the eight years it took to develop an overheating problem.
-Bill
pcrussell50 posted 09-11-2012 10:17 PM ET (US)
Thanks for that data point, BIll. My old 1959 (not a typo) Johnson Super Seahorse 35hp, which was my first ever outboard motor on my first ever boat, four years ago, (also not a typo), in it's owner's manual under a special section for salt water usage said NOTHING about flushing it. Just spraying down the exterior, bolt heads, and wiping down with an oily rag. And of course, there is anecdotal evidence everywhere about salt water outboards in daily use that do not get a fresh water flushing. Once again, salt itself is water soluble. It is not surprising that the actual buildups we see are not actual salt, but something else, (oxidation).
-Peter
wstr75 posted 09-12-2012 09:58 AM ET (US)
WeekendWarrior may be on to something. Many years ago I sold specialty water heaters and became familiar with how temperature differential combined with hard water constituents case water heater scale. The second link has useful charts and information relating to water heaters in areas with hard water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale/
http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Heater_Scale_Prevent.htm/
wstr75 posted 09-12-2012 10:06 AM ET (US)
Let's re-do the links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale
wstr75 posted 09-12-2012 10:09 AM ET (US)
Hmm, may be having a senior moment all day today. One more time on the link with charts:
http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Heater_Scale_Prevent.htm
vin1722or posted 09-12-2012 12:22 PM ET (US)
If you flush them once in awhile with Salt-Away or Volvo Penta's Nuetra Salt while flushing it with fresh water(every 20-30 hours) you will keep all of those passages and t-stat's clean of salt and other deposit's.I have a pair of yamaha's from 1987 and they have over 2,000 hours in saltwater .I just replaced t-stats(8th time) and they were spotless except for some seeweed.I swear by the stuff for salt elimination on anything.
Vinny

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Author	Topic: Salt water motors and white "gelatin"
pcrussell50	posted 09-06-2012 08:01 PM ET (US) I intentionally did not put this in the repairs section because it is not asking for a solution or technique. If this topic morphs into something that requires attention I will start another thread in the repairs section asking what to do about it. I've been partially disassembling the 40hp Yamaha, oil injected 2-stroke powering my classic sport 13, for purposes of routine maintenance, such as changing impellers, (good thing, because it was time). Took the thermostat cover off and there was gelatinous white "pudding" in there along with crusty white stuff that I'll bet a dollar gets confused with salt--thing is, I touched my tongue to it and it was not the least bit salty. Not-one-bit. What is it, and why is it gelatinous. It's obviously partially water-soluble, because it is in homogeneous mix with water, AND it is gelatinous. Marine techs? Other? -Peter
David Pendleton	posted 09-06-2012 08:12 PM ET (US) I applaud your sense of curiosity and adventure. I would never occur to me to taste "pudding" from anywhere other than my refrigerator.
andrey320	posted 09-06-2012 08:20 PM ET (US) Was yours anything like mine? http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/ 342148-flush-ummm-you-better-flush-warning-graphic-salt-build-up-pics. html Flushing with hard water maybe...?
anthonylisske	posted 09-06-2012 09:49 PM ET (US) We are still talking about an outboard right?
pcrussell50	posted 09-06-2012 11:59 PM ET (US) quote: Was yours anything like mine? Flushing with hard water maybe...? Actually, my thermostat housing looks almost nothing like yours. Everything inside mine is either white and hard or a pure white emulsion. There is almost nothing that is that dingy green-brown like what's inside yours. Interesting. It's the emulsion that is fascinating me. I've never seen it inside a car, (whether it be my racing car or my street cars). Anyhow, my "buildups" might be the result of operating in a salt environment, but they in and of themselves are not salt, (because if they were, you could taste it). Oh yeah, and because I'm just up the road from you a piece, I'm pretty sure I'm flushing with the same hard water you have there on your side of the Conejo grade. I think just about all the muni water here in Socal is hard. -Peter
weekendwarrior	posted 09-07-2012 08:13 AM ET (US) The thread linked above had one person who commented that in his motor he had hard white deposits of calcium from the hard water that he flushed with. Maybe it's calcium, or the result of corroded metal? I don't know why it's gelatinous, that's the strange part. Unless it's mixed with grease, or you sucked up a jelly fish or something on the last trip?
pcrussell50	posted 09-07-2012 01:07 PM ET (US) It's certainly mineral or corrosion, but not actual salt. I don't think there's much doubt about that. I had considered that oil might have caused the emulsion, but it sure was pure white and did not taste or smell of TCW-3. Further, how does 2-stroke oil make it's way into coolant passages? And how does it stay there with the massive throughput of water in an open cooling system? -Peter
pcrussell50	posted 09-07-2012 01:22 PM ET (US) I should add that the whole "thing" about buildups inside of outboards has been somewhat vexing. Even the racers over at the fast outboarding forum, folks for whom overhauls are common business, seem to have weak understanding of the phenomena involved. Here are some things that I find interesting or have little factual scientific knowledge of cause and effect: 1) some buildups appear to be mineral 2) some buildups appear to be corrossion 3) some buildups are reported to be "hard as concrete" 4) some are soft and gelatainous 5) some buildups aren't stuck to metal passages, but are a sandlike precipitate 6) some people swear by Salt Away or similar products. BUT of all the suspicious things that build up and block cooling systems, salt is the one that is most water soluble. In fact, unless there are pockets in a cooling system where water stands, without flowing, I'm not sure how salt can build up anywhere. If that's true, what good is Salt Away? Why do some experts swear by it? 7) or id it's effect less of dissolving salt, and more of that it leaves some kind of protective coating that inhibits corrosion? -Peter
wstr75	posted 09-07-2012 09:17 PM ET (US) Did some research tonight and this sounds like the stuff that may be the gel on your equipment. Umm, you may not want to taste it again, because if it is a strong hydroxide, it could chemically burn tongue tissue. http://tinyurl.com/czv2l8t
wstr75	posted 09-07-2012 09:18 PM ET (US) http://tinyurl.com/czv2l8t/
pcrussell50	posted 09-07-2012 11:32 PM ET (US) BINGO! A breakthrough. I bet that's it. Now, where and what to do getting some kind of anode on this corrosion-prone Swiss watch. I wonder if there are trim tab anodes for these amazing motors. -Peter
Jeff	posted 09-07-2012 11:46 PM ET (US) I wonder if this is the same clear / milky gel that forms on top of the aluminium fuel tanks of Whalers that are holding a lot of water in the fuel tank cavity.
jhomeist	posted 09-11-2012 02:09 PM ET (US) If it is an aluminum hydroxide gel, I wouldn't worry about the tongue test. It's used as a common antacid. It's also soluble in acid, so you should be able to clean up the thermostat easily with a dilute acid like vinegar, but it's so weak you might have to let is soak overnight.
pcrussell50	posted 09-11-2012 04:01 PM ET (US) It certainly was mild in and non-reactive on the tip of my tongue, in the extreme. What I'm more interested in is how to avoid it's buildup inside my motor. Figuring out that it is NOT salt, that never dissolved, and built up over time was part of the process for me. And it makes perfect sense that it would not in fact actually be salt, since salt is water soluble. Where various forms of oxidation are not water soluble, and various forms of minerals/hardness in water may be soluble to a point, but something about being in an outboard seems to make it precipitate out, and eventually build up. The latter two processes and the means of aborting them, are most interesting to me. -Peter
weekendwarrior	posted 09-11-2012 06:08 PM ET (US) I have a theory that running an engine hard (cruising on plane, pulling a skier, etc...) and then turning it off without a few minutes of idle time to cool down can cause build up. My logic is that turning the motor off immediately drains the cooling system, but this leaves the inside of the cooling passages wet with salt water. The heat will quickly steam the water away leaving behind salt and hard water deposits that don't easily rinse out. I have no proof to back this up, it's just my theory.
Mumbo Jumbo	posted 09-11-2012 09:33 PM ET (US) Peter- My neighbor and I both had the same problem with a gray gel-like substance clogging the water passages on our 90hp two-stroke Yamaha engines. We had to remove the heads and clean out the gel to solve over-heating problems. When the mechanic took the head from my engine to his shop to clean it, I used a popsicle stick and dug the firm gel from the passages on the motor that I could get to. Both of the motors were run almost daily in salt water during half the year and mine was never flushed with fresh water. Removing the gel solved our overheating problems.
Mumbo Jumbo	posted 09-11-2012 09:38 PM ET (US) CORRECTION: Both of the motors were run almost daily in salt water during half the year and mine was never flushed with fresh water during the eight years it took to develop an overheating problem. -Bill
pcrussell50	posted 09-11-2012 10:17 PM ET (US) Thanks for that data point, BIll. My old 1959 (not a typo) Johnson Super Seahorse 35hp, which was my first ever outboard motor on my first ever boat, four years ago, (also not a typo), in it's owner's manual under a special section for salt water usage said NOTHING about flushing it. Just spraying down the exterior, bolt heads, and wiping down with an oily rag. And of course, there is anecdotal evidence everywhere about salt water outboards in daily use that do not get a fresh water flushing. Once again, salt itself is water soluble. It is not surprising that the actual buildups we see are not actual salt, but something else, (oxidation). -Peter
wstr75	posted 09-12-2012 09:58 AM ET (US) WeekendWarrior may be on to something. Many years ago I sold specialty water heaters and became familiar with how temperature differential combined with hard water constituents case water heater scale. The second link has useful charts and information relating to water heaters in areas with hard water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale/ http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Heater_Scale_Prevent.htm/
wstr75	posted 09-12-2012 10:06 AM ET (US) Let's re-do the links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limescale
wstr75	posted 09-12-2012 10:09 AM ET (US) Hmm, may be having a senior moment all day today. One more time on the link with charts: http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Heater_Scale_Prevent.htm
vin1722or	posted 09-12-2012 12:22 PM ET (US) If you flush them once in awhile with Salt-Away or Volvo Penta's Nuetra Salt while flushing it with fresh water(every 20-30 hours) you will keep all of those passages and t-stat's clean of salt and other deposit's.I have a pair of yamaha's from 1987 and they have over 2,000 hours in saltwater .I just replaced t-stats(8th time) and they were spotless except for some seeweed.I swear by the stuff for salt elimination on anything. Vinny