Is the Boston Whaler in San Francisco the new Somalia?

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Lionheart posted 10-11-2012 07:04 AM ET (US)
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/ French-boat-s-rescuer-seeks-200K-award-3934214.php#ixzz28v2Girjp
skinnywater posted 10-11-2012 09:38 AM ET (US)
Opportunist - and a fool one at that. Without request for assistance, he attempted to "salvage" a catamaran off the rocks all alone with a 14 foot boat. I think his first "duty" should be to locate the legal owner and allow them to recapture their property safely. Foolishly putting one's life and someone else's property at risk for personal financial or fame glory is NOT a basis for any, let alone higher, compensation from the rightful property owner.
An owner of a vehicle on the side of a road does not owe me money if I take it upon myself to tow it without their knowledge – and they certainly don’t owe me more if I did it on a busy highway with my moped – “hey, I coulda got myself killed” – exactly, you’re a dumba--- but thanks anyway, that was crazy daring of you, fool.
If a cattle truck breaks down and the beef is on the hoof, they do not owe me money if I take it upon myself to render assistance; and they certainly don’t owe me EXTRA money because I was stupid enough to run out into highway traffic and take on a steer with nothing but sheer will and a tow rope - especially if they did not ask me to do so. "Hey I coulda got myself killed out there" - exactly, that was a damn crazy fool thing to do, you’re a dumba-- but thanks anyway.
just my take -
skinnywater posted 10-11-2012 09:49 AM ET (US)
So according to the premise of Mr. Tholke (and his lawyer), anytime a vessel breaks free of its mooring, under maritime law of 1869 it is fair game to be captured by the first person to capitalize on the situation and seize it; and the owner owes monetary compensation if they want it back - and extra compensation if the 'rescuer' puts themself at risk in an extremely risky and foolish manner.
I think I will be camping out at the local marina with swim fins and a snorkel during the next major storm.... ^@^(-)~
Jefecinco posted 10-11-2012 10:03 AM ET (US)
Skinnywater,
All the legalities of salvage operations may be at play depending upon the circumstances.
Maritime lawyers might shed some light on your views.
Butch
tombro posted 10-11-2012 11:08 AM ET (US)
As unlikely as it sounds, I do believe that the salvor is entitled to a percentage of the current market value of the vessel in distress. And maritime insurance will pay around 30% of the buc value. Reason being is that it's cheaper for them to pay a fraction of the value, rather than a claim for a total loss. So, salvage can be lucrative. I know it is also a close call between a tow and a salvage...and commercial tow boats may place a salvage claim on your vessel, when you think you are simply being towed.
andygere posted 10-11-2012 12:11 PM ET (US)
Having spend a day on the water last week crewing for forum member Skiff, who was working as a course Marshall for the week, I have a hard time believing the French team is suffering any financial hardship. The entire enterprise just oozes money, and the French Energy team is no exception. I suspect that Tholke thinks so too, and figures he's got a chance to shave a slice off for himself.
Here's a shot of the AC 45 fleet that I snapped at at their moorings last Wednesday morning. The French Energy yacht is on the far right.
[url]https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/185090_10151192093129687_783178166_n.jpg
As to this guy's claim, well it does look like gold digging to me. That said, having seen these yachts up close and personal (including ashore at the maritime equivalent of the Indy pit area), I can tell you that even in calm conditions that yacht would probably have sustained some expensive damage in short order had it not been pulled off the rocks. Is the guy entitled to something, or is he the rattiest of maritime rats? Methinks the latter, but he'll probably wind up with something and the lawyers will for sure. Now in terms of how it effects his karma, well, that's a different story.
andygere posted 10-11-2012 12:11 PM ET (US)
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/ 185090_10151192093129687_783178166_n.jpg
bluewaterpirate posted 10-11-2012 01:51 PM ET (US)
You would think with all this money floating around there would have been a plan in place to retrieve a boat that broke its mooring and drifted off.
Where's the adult leadership?
lizard posted 10-11-2012 01:56 PM ET (US)
I am not sure why the "salvager" is being torn apart here. MOST salvage attempts are done for money or the vessel and this is no exception. On both coasts, the CG will only respond to a vessel assist call if the vessel is in imminent danger of capsize/fire, etc. They will not come out on a call like this though they will offer to contact a tow company for you.
If the French want to suggest that his reward is closer to $25K, suggesting the value of the boat is $125K, I'd be happy to, with a few friends, acquire it for that. The sails are worth that much. They are complaining it is a 5-year old vessel but they are using that poor, dilapidated vessel in one of the world's most prestigious races?
While not exquisitely informed in the minutia of salvage, this account does not sound outside the realm of most simple salvage operations. Did he incur and expense- sure, his fuel. Was he potentially in danger (albeit not the brightest idea to go out at that time in that boat) sure. I have towed 3 boats in my time. One was an ultralight (by sailboat standards) in a competition whose rudder had snapped. They had no radio, no lines to tow with and a variety of other odd contributing factors. I towed them in because it was the right thing to do. Without a bridle, there are a number of potentially dangerous that could have occurred and I did not have a bridle. They did not have tow insurance for me to call on their behalf. Frankly, I don't understand why you would invest in a vessel that expensive and that not be outfitted with the basics (radio, tow package, the list goes on).
Had I found that sailboat unattended, my understanding is that it would be my right to claim as salvage. What is different about this situation? He may not be the most altruistically intended individual, I don't know how many salvage operations are.
I would love to hear, from someone, more informed in salvage, if my understanding is incorrect.
They should pay up and move on. I am sure if they offered him something much less offensive, he would be happy.
Tom W Clark posted 10-11-2012 02:20 PM ET (US)
Folks -- This will be settled in court by people expert in Admiralty law, not by the participants here on ContinuousWave.
I do think it is an interesting story and my suspicion is the salvor will get something in between $25,000 and $200,000.
skinnywater posted 10-11-2012 05:51 PM ET (US)
and I am still gonna hang out at the marinas with my swim trunks and snorkel when the weather gets bad and maybe score me a few unattended yachts myself. ;-)
Maybe catch up with an "unattended" PWC when the rider falls off.... or maybe even score an unattended beached boat when the occupants go for a stroll.... the possibilities for danger and profit are endless - I suddenly Love maritime law. Heck, I live in Pirate country, why not - although the PC term nowadays is Maritime Mercenary, or (unattended) boat and booty collection engineer - (for the record - I am being sarcastic -) Ha.
I could agree that it was a legit salvage attempt to limit damage to the vessel, but not with the timing of it having occurred only hours after breaking the mooring lines and not contacting the owners first as he obviously knew who owned it (the story relates he returned it directly to them) and they said "Oui, go get mon catamaran pronto, sil vous plait." What if they had set up a retrieval op for dawn that morning (he didn't know their plans at the time)?
Maybe if the boat was sitting there a few days unattended - if I were the French, I'd go to court and state that I was about to go retrieve my vessel safely when the cowboy brought it in, and also try to limit the "risk" compensation factor by pointing out that it was not only dangerous but also simply just not smart for him to risk life and property by going out alone in a 14 foot craft to retrieve it in the middle of the night.
again - Just me on that -
contender posted 10-11-2012 06:38 PM ET (US)
I wonder how an important expensive sailing craft, that is competing in a race, Broke away from its mornings? What were they using kite string? or a rock as an anchor? Was there a hurricane in the harbor? Did any other boats break free? Anytime I leave my boat overnight in the water I have 4 lines,(25 ft boat) and I check them before I go to bed...Something is not right...
Here is another story : 1965 Miami, as a kid I got in big trouble for finding a boat that had drifted away, broke free of its docking/morings, At about 13 years old I claimed savage rights and was taken to jail by the Sheriffs Dept. (Marine Division).... So much for salvage rights...
saumon posted 10-11-2012 07:55 PM ET (US)
Maybe the Sheriff know that you untie the mooring lines...;-)
andygere posted 10-12-2012 01:47 AM ET (US)
Having seen these boats, the mooring field their dryland headquarters up close and personal, I am convinced that nothing was left to chance on the mooring of this vessel. These things are managed by teams of experts, and the gear they use is the best of the best. When I read this story, I couldn't help but wonder if Energy was "helped" off it's ground tackle in the dark of night.
Lionheart posted 10-12-2012 04:27 AM ET (US)
1) How do mooring lines part on a calm night?
2) Who is wandering around, distant from 'home' at 0330 in the cold night?
3) Why, with the Coast Guard as a permanently posted neighbor, manned 24/7, would they not be the logical call well before attempting the 'rescue'?
4) How did the Energy owners manage to be on the scene at that hour?
An investigation of the facts will shortly add clarity to the situation.
Dave Sutton posted 10-12-2012 08:15 AM ET (US)
"Here is another story : 1965 Miami, as a kid I got in big trouble for finding a boat that had drifted away, broke free of its docking/morings, At about 13 years old I claimed savage rights and was taken to jail by the Sheriffs Dept. (Marine Division).... So much for salvage rights.."

Years ago I was running a dive boat offshore (20 miles or so) and found a brand-new surf dory rescue boat drifting that had been blown off the beach from a well known shore resort town in NJ. The boat was beautifully made by a local wooden boat builder, and was worth about $10K at the time. It was plainly marked with the name of the town that owned it.
We towed it in, and were met by the local police at the dock. Apparently it had been pushed off the beach in the night as an act of vandalism, and naturally the police wanted it back for the owners. I invoked salvage, to which under admrality law I was entitled. They looked blankly at me. So I smiled and asked for a receipt for the boat and a copy of the report that articulated the means by which the boat was recovered. I then wrote a letter to the town and asked for 10% of the value as salvage. This was ignored. Then a letter was sent by my partner in the dive boat, who happened to be an admirality claims attorney working for a large law firm in NY, on his letterhead. He re-stated the case. No reply.
Short-cut to the end: After making my claim to the "Receiver of Wreck" in NYC (Yes, there is a "Receiver of Wreck"), The Judge in Admirality court awarded 15% of the value of the boat as salvage.
Salvage value is determined by a combination of the value of the boat, the risk to which the salvor places his own resources in play to effect the salvage, and the risk of loss if salvage was not attempted. A boat drifting in the calm a mile offshore is going to be paid as a lower percentage as one being pounded to death on the rocks in a gale. But in both cases the salvor is entitled to a claim.

(really, I was just pissed that this particular town was harassing spearfishermen trying to fish on the jetties in the town by over-enforcing every tiny ordinance they could make up, so there was a "little" poetic justice in my act).

Dave
.


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Author	Topic: Is the Boston Whaler in San Francisco the new Somalia?
Lionheart	posted 10-11-2012 07:04 AM ET (US) http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/ French-boat-s-rescuer-seeks-200K-award-3934214.php#ixzz28v2Girjp
skinnywater	posted 10-11-2012 09:38 AM ET (US) Opportunist - and a fool one at that. Without request for assistance, he attempted to "salvage" a catamaran off the rocks all alone with a 14 foot boat. I think his first "duty" should be to locate the legal owner and allow them to recapture their property safely. Foolishly putting one's life and someone else's property at risk for personal financial or fame glory is NOT a basis for any, let alone higher, compensation from the rightful property owner. An owner of a vehicle on the side of a road does not owe me money if I take it upon myself to tow it without their knowledge – and they certainly don’t owe me more if I did it on a busy highway with my moped – “hey, I coulda got myself killed” – exactly, you’re a dumba--- but thanks anyway, that was crazy daring of you, fool. If a cattle truck breaks down and the beef is on the hoof, they do not owe me money if I take it upon myself to render assistance; and they certainly don’t owe me EXTRA money because I was stupid enough to run out into highway traffic and take on a steer with nothing but sheer will and a tow rope - especially if they did not ask me to do so. "Hey I coulda got myself killed out there" - exactly, that was a damn crazy fool thing to do, you’re a dumba-- but thanks anyway. just my take -
skinnywater	posted 10-11-2012 09:49 AM ET (US) So according to the premise of Mr. Tholke (and his lawyer), anytime a vessel breaks free of its mooring, under maritime law of 1869 it is fair game to be captured by the first person to capitalize on the situation and seize it; and the owner owes monetary compensation if they want it back - and extra compensation if the 'rescuer' puts themself at risk in an extremely risky and foolish manner. I think I will be camping out at the local marina with swim fins and a snorkel during the next major storm.... ^@^(-)~
Jefecinco	posted 10-11-2012 10:03 AM ET (US) Skinnywater, All the legalities of salvage operations may be at play depending upon the circumstances. Maritime lawyers might shed some light on your views. Butch
tombro	posted 10-11-2012 11:08 AM ET (US) As unlikely as it sounds, I do believe that the salvor is entitled to a percentage of the current market value of the vessel in distress. And maritime insurance will pay around 30% of the buc value. Reason being is that it's cheaper for them to pay a fraction of the value, rather than a claim for a total loss. So, salvage can be lucrative. I know it is also a close call between a tow and a salvage...and commercial tow boats may place a salvage claim on your vessel, when you think you are simply being towed.
andygere	posted 10-11-2012 12:11 PM ET (US) Having spend a day on the water last week crewing for forum member Skiff, who was working as a course Marshall for the week, I have a hard time believing the French team is suffering any financial hardship. The entire enterprise just oozes money, and the French Energy team is no exception. I suspect that Tholke thinks so too, and figures he's got a chance to shave a slice off for himself. Here's a shot of the AC 45 fleet that I snapped at at their moorings last Wednesday morning. The French Energy yacht is on the far right. [url]https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/185090_10151192093129687_783178166_n.jpg As to this guy's claim, well it does look like gold digging to me. That said, having seen these yachts up close and personal (including ashore at the maritime equivalent of the Indy pit area), I can tell you that even in calm conditions that yacht would probably have sustained some expensive damage in short order had it not been pulled off the rocks. Is the guy entitled to something, or is he the rattiest of maritime rats? Methinks the latter, but he'll probably wind up with something and the lawyers will for sure. Now in terms of how it effects his karma, well, that's a different story.
andygere	posted 10-11-2012 12:11 PM ET (US) https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/ 185090_10151192093129687_783178166_n.jpg
bluewaterpirate	posted 10-11-2012 01:51 PM ET (US) You would think with all this money floating around there would have been a plan in place to retrieve a boat that broke its mooring and drifted off. Where's the adult leadership?
lizard	posted 10-11-2012 01:56 PM ET (US) I am not sure why the "salvager" is being torn apart here. MOST salvage attempts are done for money or the vessel and this is no exception. On both coasts, the CG will only respond to a vessel assist call if the vessel is in imminent danger of capsize/fire, etc. They will not come out on a call like this though they will offer to contact a tow company for you. If the French want to suggest that his reward is closer to $25K, suggesting the value of the boat is $125K, I'd be happy to, with a few friends, acquire it for that. The sails are worth that much. They are complaining it is a 5-year old vessel but they are using that poor, dilapidated vessel in one of the world's most prestigious races? While not exquisitely informed in the minutia of salvage, this account does not sound outside the realm of most simple salvage operations. Did he incur and expense- sure, his fuel. Was he potentially in danger (albeit not the brightest idea to go out at that time in that boat) sure. I have towed 3 boats in my time. One was an ultralight (by sailboat standards) in a competition whose rudder had snapped. They had no radio, no lines to tow with and a variety of other odd contributing factors. I towed them in because it was the right thing to do. Without a bridle, there are a number of potentially dangerous that could have occurred and I did not have a bridle. They did not have tow insurance for me to call on their behalf. Frankly, I don't understand why you would invest in a vessel that expensive and that not be outfitted with the basics (radio, tow package, the list goes on). Had I found that sailboat unattended, my understanding is that it would be my right to claim as salvage. What is different about this situation? He may not be the most altruistically intended individual, I don't know how many salvage operations are. I would love to hear, from someone, more informed in salvage, if my understanding is incorrect. They should pay up and move on. I am sure if they offered him something much less offensive, he would be happy.
Tom W Clark	posted 10-11-2012 02:20 PM ET (US) Folks -- This will be settled in court by people expert in Admiralty law, not by the participants here on ContinuousWave. I do think it is an interesting story and my suspicion is the salvor will get something in between $25,000 and $200,000.
skinnywater	posted 10-11-2012 05:51 PM ET (US) and I am still gonna hang out at the marinas with my swim trunks and snorkel when the weather gets bad and maybe score me a few unattended yachts myself. ;-) Maybe catch up with an "unattended" PWC when the rider falls off.... or maybe even score an unattended beached boat when the occupants go for a stroll.... the possibilities for danger and profit are endless - I suddenly Love maritime law. Heck, I live in Pirate country, why not - although the PC term nowadays is Maritime Mercenary, or (unattended) boat and booty collection engineer - (for the record - I am being sarcastic -) Ha. I could agree that it was a legit salvage attempt to limit damage to the vessel, but not with the timing of it having occurred only hours after breaking the mooring lines and not contacting the owners first as he obviously knew who owned it (the story relates he returned it directly to them) and they said "Oui, go get mon catamaran pronto, sil vous plait." What if they had set up a retrieval op for dawn that morning (he didn't know their plans at the time)? Maybe if the boat was sitting there a few days unattended - if I were the French, I'd go to court and state that I was about to go retrieve my vessel safely when the cowboy brought it in, and also try to limit the "risk" compensation factor by pointing out that it was not only dangerous but also simply just not smart for him to risk life and property by going out alone in a 14 foot craft to retrieve it in the middle of the night. again - Just me on that -
contender	posted 10-11-2012 06:38 PM ET (US) I wonder how an important expensive sailing craft, that is competing in a race, Broke away from its mornings? What were they using kite string? or a rock as an anchor? Was there a hurricane in the harbor? Did any other boats break free? Anytime I leave my boat overnight in the water I have 4 lines,(25 ft boat) and I check them before I go to bed...Something is not right... Here is another story : 1965 Miami, as a kid I got in big trouble for finding a boat that had drifted away, broke free of its docking/morings, At about 13 years old I claimed savage rights and was taken to jail by the Sheriffs Dept. (Marine Division).... So much for salvage rights...
saumon	posted 10-11-2012 07:55 PM ET (US) Maybe the Sheriff know that you untie the mooring lines...;-)
andygere	posted 10-12-2012 01:47 AM ET (US) Having seen these boats, the mooring field their dryland headquarters up close and personal, I am convinced that nothing was left to chance on the mooring of this vessel. These things are managed by teams of experts, and the gear they use is the best of the best. When I read this story, I couldn't help but wonder if Energy was "helped" off it's ground tackle in the dark of night.
Lionheart	posted 10-12-2012 04:27 AM ET (US) 1) How do mooring lines part on a calm night? 2) Who is wandering around, distant from 'home' at 0330 in the cold night? 3) Why, with the Coast Guard as a permanently posted neighbor, manned 24/7, would they not be the logical call well before attempting the 'rescue'? 4) How did the Energy owners manage to be on the scene at that hour? An investigation of the facts will shortly add clarity to the situation.
Dave Sutton	posted 10-12-2012 08:15 AM ET (US) "Here is another story : 1965 Miami, as a kid I got in big trouble for finding a boat that had drifted away, broke free of its docking/morings, At about 13 years old I claimed savage rights and was taken to jail by the Sheriffs Dept. (Marine Division).... So much for salvage rights.." Years ago I was running a dive boat offshore (20 miles or so) and found a brand-new surf dory rescue boat drifting that had been blown off the beach from a well known shore resort town in NJ. The boat was beautifully made by a local wooden boat builder, and was worth about $10K at the time. It was plainly marked with the name of the town that owned it. We towed it in, and were met by the local police at the dock. Apparently it had been pushed off the beach in the night as an act of vandalism, and naturally the police wanted it back for the owners. I invoked salvage, to which under admrality law I was entitled. They looked blankly at me. So I smiled and asked for a receipt for the boat and a copy of the report that articulated the means by which the boat was recovered. I then wrote a letter to the town and asked for 10% of the value as salvage. This was ignored. Then a letter was sent by my partner in the dive boat, who happened to be an admirality claims attorney working for a large law firm in NY, on his letterhead. He re-stated the case. No reply. Short-cut to the end: After making my claim to the "Receiver of Wreck" in NYC (Yes, there is a "Receiver of Wreck"), The Judge in Admirality court awarded 15% of the value of the boat as salvage. Salvage value is determined by a combination of the value of the boat, the risk to which the salvor places his own resources in play to effect the salvage, and the risk of loss if salvage was not attempted. A boat drifting in the calm a mile offshore is going to be paid as a lower percentage as one being pounded to death on the rocks in a gale. But in both cases the salvor is entitled to a claim. (really, I was just pissed that this particular town was harassing spearfishermen trying to fish on the jetties in the town by over-enforcing every tiny ordinance they could make up, so there was a "little" poetic justice in my act). Dave .