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Author Topic:   Depending on Electronics

swist posted 05-28-2013 04:09 PM ET (US)
Some of you may have noticed in the "Electrical" subforum an issue with a burned out LCD backlight making my GPS unusable - I learned some interesting things from that experience.
Although I wasn't dumb enough to not have paper charts on the boat, they had not been updated in a long term - they served fine for quasi-familiar waters, but a renumbered or moved buoy or other unrecorded change in an unfamiliar area could have caused a serious problem. Moral - your backup isn't any good if it's out of date.
Second, even in very familiar waters I had been letting the GPS replace my own memory as to the location of hazards. Something like not using your brain cells causes them to atrophy. When I had just paper charts I certainly seemed to retain the chart data in my head better. I guess if your brain knows that consulting a chart will take a little effort, it compensates by remembering better.
Third, after using a GPS so long in "boat's heading up" mode, the first time I started going South with the paper chart, I had trouble quickly registering what was on the left and what was on the right. I had to turn the chart upside down so "up" matched the boat heading (to the mirth of my passengers). I never remember having to do that in the pre-GPS days.
These experiences surprised me. Yeah I would always make a speech to my kids about not depending on electronics yada yada, but it looks like I wasn't really 100% prepared to deal with it myself either,
EaglesPDX posted 05-28-2013 04:19 PM ET (US)
If you got'em, smok'em is my view on electronics. They are great, way more accurate than charts and compass.
I used to go offshore in my 17' Newport. It if got foggy when I was coming home. I had compass points to inlet and good idea of tidal drift but it was a total crap shoot.
Remember one time, I'm coming in. I'd stop and listen for breakers then head North or South to find jetty. One day I'm doing that, puttering a long and suddenly swimmers to my offshore side...I'm between them and the beach. "Scuze me, scuze me, watch the prop kid. No need to tell the lifeguard, our little secret"
What's nice in this era of iPhone apps is your phone is your navigation backup for your onboard electronics.
Best to teach your kids how to use the iPhone nav features. The charts are the same on the iPhone, your onboard GPS and paper.
swist posted 05-28-2013 05:01 PM ET (US)
Well that is certainly a legit backup we didn't have in the earlier days of GPS, but phones can fail too, have dead batteries...or my biggest problem in my old age, I leave it in the car or in the house when I go out on the boat.
Chuck Tribolet posted 05-28-2013 05:12 PM ET (US)
Turning the chart upside down is OK. It's called "Orienting
the chart".
Chuck
EaglesPDX posted 05-28-2013 08:13 PM ET (US)

quote:
swist - Well that is certainly a legit backup we didn't have in the earlier days of GPS, but phones can fail too, have dead batteries...or my biggest problem in my old age, I leave it in the car or in the house when I go out on the boat.
Eyup...the backup to the backup to the backup can always fail. We call them perfect storms. Of course that scenario means you also forgot your charts and broke the compass and it's so foggy you can't see sun or stars and you ran out of gas.
Don't see any real loss of navigation or chart reading skills due to the electronics.
kwik_wurk posted 05-28-2013 09:01 PM ET (US)
Ever see the cockpit of a small turbo prop or airliner. Not a lot of paper in there for primary and secondary navigation. I haven't followed the FAR (federal aviation regs), but electronic medium for paper charts is acceptable in a lot of cases. -- So for a small boat, yes, I think all electronic is acceptable.
However there is prudence in charting your adventures in new territory before hand so you know where you are going, or not going. Having a mental picture of what general course you are going to take is important.
So multiple electronic systems independent of each other is fine. One of my bigger boats, has 3 hardwired GPS devices, each can be run independently (two are actually networked, but can be separated). Plus I carry a portable GPS & VHF in a metal box (electrical/static isolation).
And heads up display is personal preference, but I explicitly do not use it for the reason you mention. For some odd reason (not scientifically proven), the majority of us seem better at remembering static maps (north up), while trying to orient our selves in dynamic positioning. My boating friends go nuts, when I switch a GPS to heads up. -- (I think this has more to do with historical tendencies, starting at our early education.)
All this said, I do have a set of sextant correction tables (books really), for whole bunch of altitudes. Wonder if I will actually pack them, or go to digital format for those as well.
EJO posted 05-30-2013 11:06 AM ET (US)
You guys with smartphones (I or Droid) must get a hell of a good reception to use it as a nav. aid. The moment I leave shore I loose reception and therefore never can get the chart uploaded to my screen even if my GPS is working.
Marine Navigator, AIS, Memory-Map, NutiCharts, and Maverick are all great navigational aid for your smartphone if you have the correct map pre loaded in memory, which comes down to preparedness which is; did I familiarize myself with where I'm going, do I have back up, do I have updated charts, did I forget my phone (on purpose, I don't want anybody to call me while on the boat), do I have all my safety equipment, and so on, and so on.
So digital, electronic, or manual you just need to be prepared.
jimh posted 05-30-2013 11:27 AM ET (US)
I have found myself in a few situations, as when navigating the boat on a dark and moonless night in an area where most of the navigation aids were not lighted aids and there were plenty of hazards, when I had to rely on electronic navigation as the primary method of piloting the boat. I found this to be very uncomfortable, and I try to avoid those situations as much as possible. I much prefer to pilot the boat by visual references, not just electronic position as shown on an electronic chart.
On the other hand, having a constantly updated electronic position shown on a detailed electronic chart is a great benefit when piloting, particularly in areas that are new and unfamiliar.

In some instances the electronic charts are better than the paper charts. I recall one situation in which I was navigating using paper charts. The route was a complicated route and it was shown in the official paper charts in a series of insets of large scale. We got to a particular point in the passage, and the paper charts for that segment were very confusing. They were drawn to several different scales, were located on different sheets of the chart package, and with different orientation to North. It was very unclear to me at the time where the next portion of the route was to be found on the paper charts. It was my good fortune that another fellow traveller on our cruise had electronic charts for the area. Those electronic charts were stitched together into a seamless presentation, and on his electronic chart plotter the route we wanted was clearly shown. While I was befuddled with two or three sheets of charts, different scales, different orientations of the chart to North, and the route spread among several insets, the electronic chart presentation was seamless, at the same scale, with the same orientation to North, and easy to interpret. We shifted over to following our companion who lead the way with the electronic charts. I recall at the time the hopeless feeling I had of having lost my way in the labyrinth of channels and being unable to find the next segment of the route on the paper charts. I actually had to carefully study the chart sheets for some time afterwards, when I knew the proper channel by experience, to find it on the paper charts. That is how badly presented it was on paper.
swist posted 05-30-2013 03:12 PM ET (US)
I think paper is the best possible ultimate backup. Unless your boat burns to the waterline, or you have a moonless night with not a single source of light on the boat, it can't go wronq even if terrorists disable the GPS and cell phone networks.
You just have to keep the paper up to date. NOAA put all the charts online for free download some time back, but unless you have a 3'x 4' printer on your computer, you still have to correct your charts with pen or pencil (or buy a new one from NOAA).
contender posted 05-31-2013 07:29 AM ET (US)
The best backup is a good compass with a backup, up to date charts, know how to use them...
boatdryver posted 05-31-2013 09:54 AM ET (US)
Last August we were 300 miles North of Seattle in the Broughton Archipelago (hundreds of small islands with zero aids to navigation) cruising in a chartered 50 ft. twin diesel boat well equipped with Nobeltec electronic charting with a 17 inch display and a backup Garmin plotter on the bridge.
One day the Nobeltec system informed me that the boat was back in the slip at Anacortes. Being clever, I knew otherwise. But the backup Garmin could only display jagged world charts, useless for piloting where we were. And the installed chart cartridge covered nothing North of the San Juan Islands.
So out came the 15 paper charts from the bottom of my duffel. I sure was happy I had brought them along!
JimL
Tom W Clark posted 05-31-2013 11:21 AM ET (US)
Jim -- That is a great story!
I still continue to use my coffee stained "not to be used for navigation" chart atlases more than anything else.
EaglesPDX posted 06-01-2013 09:46 AM ET (US)

quote:
EJO - You guys with smartphones (I or Droid) must get a hell of a good reception to use it as a nav. aid. The moment I leave shore I loose reception and therefore never can get the chart uploaded to my screen even if my GPS is working.
Charts stored on the phone or iPad can be accessed just like paper charts with or without GPS usage.
GPS on the smart phones is independent of cell reception. So it provides not just "paper chart" back up but also GPS backup.
jimh posted 06-01-2013 01:05 PM ET (US)
There is irony in the comparison of smart-phones to dedicated marine chart plotters: for a while now the GNSS receivers in smart-phone have been better than the typically GPS-only receivers in marine chart plotters. The most recent generation of dedicated marine chart plotters has begun to catch up, finally using GNSS receivers that can work with more satellite navigation systems than just the Air Force NAVSTAR GPS.

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Author	Topic: Depending on Electronics
swist	posted 05-28-2013 04:09 PM ET (US) Some of you may have noticed in the "Electrical" subforum an issue with a burned out LCD backlight making my GPS unusable - I learned some interesting things from that experience. Although I wasn't dumb enough to not have paper charts on the boat, they had not been updated in a long term - they served fine for quasi-familiar waters, but a renumbered or moved buoy or other unrecorded change in an unfamiliar area could have caused a serious problem. Moral - your backup isn't any good if it's out of date. Second, even in very familiar waters I had been letting the GPS replace my own memory as to the location of hazards. Something like not using your brain cells causes them to atrophy. When I had just paper charts I certainly seemed to retain the chart data in my head better. I guess if your brain knows that consulting a chart will take a little effort, it compensates by remembering better. Third, after using a GPS so long in "boat's heading up" mode, the first time I started going South with the paper chart, I had trouble quickly registering what was on the left and what was on the right. I had to turn the chart upside down so "up" matched the boat heading (to the mirth of my passengers). I never remember having to do that in the pre-GPS days. These experiences surprised me. Yeah I would always make a speech to my kids about not depending on electronics yada yada, but it looks like I wasn't really 100% prepared to deal with it myself either,
EaglesPDX	posted 05-28-2013 04:19 PM ET (US) If you got'em, smok'em is my view on electronics. They are great, way more accurate than charts and compass. I used to go offshore in my 17' Newport. It if got foggy when I was coming home. I had compass points to inlet and good idea of tidal drift but it was a total crap shoot. Remember one time, I'm coming in. I'd stop and listen for breakers then head North or South to find jetty. One day I'm doing that, puttering a long and suddenly swimmers to my offshore side...I'm between them and the beach. "Scuze me, scuze me, watch the prop kid. No need to tell the lifeguard, our little secret" What's nice in this era of iPhone apps is your phone is your navigation backup for your onboard electronics. Best to teach your kids how to use the iPhone nav features. The charts are the same on the iPhone, your onboard GPS and paper.
swist	posted 05-28-2013 05:01 PM ET (US) Well that is certainly a legit backup we didn't have in the earlier days of GPS, but phones can fail too, have dead batteries...or my biggest problem in my old age, I leave it in the car or in the house when I go out on the boat.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 05-28-2013 05:12 PM ET (US) Turning the chart upside down is OK. It's called "Orienting the chart". Chuck
EaglesPDX	posted 05-28-2013 08:13 PM ET (US) quote: swist - Well that is certainly a legit backup we didn't have in the earlier days of GPS, but phones can fail too, have dead batteries...or my biggest problem in my old age, I leave it in the car or in the house when I go out on the boat. Eyup...the backup to the backup to the backup can always fail. We call them perfect storms. Of course that scenario means you also forgot your charts and broke the compass and it's so foggy you can't see sun or stars and you ran out of gas. Don't see any real loss of navigation or chart reading skills due to the electronics.
kwik_wurk	posted 05-28-2013 09:01 PM ET (US) Ever see the cockpit of a small turbo prop or airliner. Not a lot of paper in there for primary and secondary navigation. I haven't followed the FAR (federal aviation regs), but electronic medium for paper charts is acceptable in a lot of cases. -- So for a small boat, yes, I think all electronic is acceptable. However there is prudence in charting your adventures in new territory before hand so you know where you are going, or not going. Having a mental picture of what general course you are going to take is important. So multiple electronic systems independent of each other is fine. One of my bigger boats, has 3 hardwired GPS devices, each can be run independently (two are actually networked, but can be separated). Plus I carry a portable GPS & VHF in a metal box (electrical/static isolation). And heads up display is personal preference, but I explicitly do not use it for the reason you mention. For some odd reason (not scientifically proven), the majority of us seem better at remembering static maps (north up), while trying to orient our selves in dynamic positioning. My boating friends go nuts, when I switch a GPS to heads up. -- (I think this has more to do with historical tendencies, starting at our early education.) All this said, I do have a set of sextant correction tables (books really), for whole bunch of altitudes. Wonder if I will actually pack them, or go to digital format for those as well.
EJO	posted 05-30-2013 11:06 AM ET (US) You guys with smartphones (I or Droid) must get a hell of a good reception to use it as a nav. aid. The moment I leave shore I loose reception and therefore never can get the chart uploaded to my screen even if my GPS is working. Marine Navigator, AIS, Memory-Map, NutiCharts, and Maverick are all great navigational aid for your smartphone if you have the correct map pre loaded in memory, which comes down to preparedness which is; did I familiarize myself with where I'm going, do I have back up, do I have updated charts, did I forget my phone (on purpose, I don't want anybody to call me while on the boat), do I have all my safety equipment, and so on, and so on. So digital, electronic, or manual you just need to be prepared.
jimh	posted 05-30-2013 11:27 AM ET (US) I have found myself in a few situations, as when navigating the boat on a dark and moonless night in an area where most of the navigation aids were not lighted aids and there were plenty of hazards, when I had to rely on electronic navigation as the primary method of piloting the boat. I found this to be very uncomfortable, and I try to avoid those situations as much as possible. I much prefer to pilot the boat by visual references, not just electronic position as shown on an electronic chart. On the other hand, having a constantly updated electronic position shown on a detailed electronic chart is a great benefit when piloting, particularly in areas that are new and unfamiliar. In some instances the electronic charts are better than the paper charts. I recall one situation in which I was navigating using paper charts. The route was a complicated route and it was shown in the official paper charts in a series of insets of large scale. We got to a particular point in the passage, and the paper charts for that segment were very confusing. They were drawn to several different scales, were located on different sheets of the chart package, and with different orientation to North. It was very unclear to me at the time where the next portion of the route was to be found on the paper charts. It was my good fortune that another fellow traveller on our cruise had electronic charts for the area. Those electronic charts were stitched together into a seamless presentation, and on his electronic chart plotter the route we wanted was clearly shown. While I was befuddled with two or three sheets of charts, different scales, different orientations of the chart to North, and the route spread among several insets, the electronic chart presentation was seamless, at the same scale, with the same orientation to North, and easy to interpret. We shifted over to following our companion who lead the way with the electronic charts. I recall at the time the hopeless feeling I had of having lost my way in the labyrinth of channels and being unable to find the next segment of the route on the paper charts. I actually had to carefully study the chart sheets for some time afterwards, when I knew the proper channel by experience, to find it on the paper charts. That is how badly presented it was on paper.
swist	posted 05-30-2013 03:12 PM ET (US) I think paper is the best possible ultimate backup. Unless your boat burns to the waterline, or you have a moonless night with not a single source of light on the boat, it can't go wronq even if terrorists disable the GPS and cell phone networks. You just have to keep the paper up to date. NOAA put all the charts online for free download some time back, but unless you have a 3'x 4' printer on your computer, you still have to correct your charts with pen or pencil (or buy a new one from NOAA).
contender	posted 05-31-2013 07:29 AM ET (US) The best backup is a good compass with a backup, up to date charts, know how to use them...
boatdryver	posted 05-31-2013 09:54 AM ET (US) Last August we were 300 miles North of Seattle in the Broughton Archipelago (hundreds of small islands with zero aids to navigation) cruising in a chartered 50 ft. twin diesel boat well equipped with Nobeltec electronic charting with a 17 inch display and a backup Garmin plotter on the bridge. One day the Nobeltec system informed me that the boat was back in the slip at Anacortes. Being clever, I knew otherwise. But the backup Garmin could only display jagged world charts, useless for piloting where we were. And the installed chart cartridge covered nothing North of the San Juan Islands. So out came the 15 paper charts from the bottom of my duffel. I sure was happy I had brought them along! JimL
Tom W Clark	posted 05-31-2013 11:21 AM ET (US) Jim -- That is a great story! I still continue to use my coffee stained "not to be used for navigation" chart atlases more than anything else.
EaglesPDX	posted 06-01-2013 09:46 AM ET (US) quote: EJO - You guys with smartphones (I or Droid) must get a hell of a good reception to use it as a nav. aid. The moment I leave shore I loose reception and therefore never can get the chart uploaded to my screen even if my GPS is working. Charts stored on the phone or iPad can be accessed just like paper charts with or without GPS usage. GPS on the smart phones is independent of cell reception. So it provides not just "paper chart" back up but also GPS backup.
jimh	posted 06-01-2013 01:05 PM ET (US) There is irony in the comparison of smart-phones to dedicated marine chart plotters: for a while now the GNSS receivers in smart-phone have been better than the typically GPS-only receivers in marine chart plotters. The most recent generation of dedicated marine chart plotters has begun to catch up, finally using GNSS receivers that can work with more satellite navigation systems than just the Air Force NAVSTAR GPS.