Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Marketplace
MARKETPLACE Guidelines--Pointers to Other Sales
|Author||Topic: MARKETPLACE Guidelines--Pointers to Other Sales|
posted 01-23-2008 10:18 PM ET (US)
The intention of the MARKETPLACE discussion is to provide a place for sellers and buyers to gather to sell and buy Boston Whaler boats, motors, and accessory equipment. The MARKETPLACE works best if sellers list the items they have for sale and buyers list the items they want to buy.
Because there is no charge for posting notices of either for-sale or wanted-to-buy, the marketplace should be an fairly open exchange and there should be little barrier to entry, either for buyers or sellers.
Lately a new practice has entered the MARKETPLACE in which second-party announcements are posted pointing to items offered for sale in other places by other parties. It was never intended that the MARKETPLACE would try to collect and organize information about items offered for sales elsewhere. The MARKETPLACE is principally interested only in creating its own venue for buyers and sellers to interact, not in directing such interaction to other venues. This is in keeping with the theme of the discussion areas in general; they are focused on gathering information here, not gathering pointers to information maintained elsewhere.
In many cases people posting pointers to items being offered for sale elsewhere have altruistic motives, and mean only to contribute to information which could be of value to readers of the MARKETPLACE. However, it has been observed that in some cases a posting of a notice that a item was being offered for sale elsewhere seems to have been done with the intent to influence the sale of items offered here in the MARKETPLACE.
In other cases, announcements of sales being offered elsewhere have served to drastically increase the number of buyers interested in the sale, often causing some buyers to be edged out who were already aware of an item.
Therefore, it would be greatly appreciated that posting of announcements of items being sold elsewhere by second parties be stopped. There is no problem if the seller themselves would like to post a duplicate listing of their merchandise, but please let's not have second-party postings about other sale offerings.
posted 01-23-2008 10:31 PM ET (US)
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I have never agreed with posting someone else's ads. If I know of some one looking for something I run across I email them. Keeping if off the radar works the best for everyone.
Thank You again.
posted 01-23-2008 10:46 PM ET (US)
AMEN! Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou also! very correct!
This will stop all those postings of third party sales that are ment to influence the sale or non-sale of items offered here in the MARKETPLACE.
The last guildline post from Jim also clearly stated... "Posting articles in reply to notices of FOR SALE which are intended to bring criticism to the seller, his merchandise, or his price should not be considered as part of the normal interaction of the MARKETPLACE".
Thanks Jim, thats makes it perfectly clear!
posted 01-23-2008 11:48 PM ET (US)
It is your site and you can do as you wish, but please remember that the more you cater to a cry baby, the more he will ask for. Sometimes you just need to tell the cry baby to be a man and shut up and go to his room. As we agreed, I will tell you if I see blatant lies posted on "For Sale" ads
You say that you never agreed with posting someone else's ad, but just yesterday you helped HoppinJohn post a boat on your Whaler Central site that he said he had no affiliation with. Why do you not practice what you preech?
posted 01-23-2008 11:49 PM ET (US)
There's nothing in this for me, but there's a posting like this on Craig's List........
posted 01-24-2008 01:06 AM ET (US)
Friend, please understand that there are things that go on outside the walls of this forum. Things you know nothing about. Why you decide to break this open, I do not know.
Yes, I posted an ad hoppingjohn posted as I could not remove it as Joe Kriz, who owns whalercentral, has not weighed it as to WC's stance on these type of 3rd party postings. Whalercentral is not my site. I just help Joe and Mike (how started the site) out by moderating the boards for them. Funny though the hoppinjohn posting did start a discussion, initiated by myself, about WC's stance on this issue. Until the owner of the site weighs in I moderate by his rules. I did post in John's thread that it was a pain for viewers to have to join the hosting site to find out info on the for sale ad. I also did the favor of posting all of the information about the ad so that everyone did not have to go through the BS of signing up for a site.
Enough of the politics of another board. Lets stick to CW for now. Here is some reading for you to do about my stance on this issue. Unfortunatly the main Meta Discussion I started on this issue no longer exists.
I have always felt posting links to someone else's forsale ad in a public forum is not my job. There have been cases I know of here were someone almost lost a Whaler because of a third parting pointer ad. Fortunately that person ended up with a great 25 Revenge. Just yesterday I emailed someone here who I knew was looking for a specific whaler though their Want To Buy ad and next thing you know there are 2 or 3 different public postings here going to that same boat ad. That is not helpful for any buyer.
If I do not know of anyone looking for something I come across I email it to them. Something which I do at least 20+ times a week for members here an elsewhere. I do it that way because if the person I am emailing is interested in the item the last thing they want is for it to be public knowledge and have others either run up the price or buy it before they do. If they are not interested then so be it. Advertising falls on the seller. Hey if they do not care how they sell their stuff, and if it moves or not, neither do I. Same goes for a buyer, I think it is on them to find what they are looking for. There are places that help people find what they are looking for. In fact I have published an article that gives most of the best places to search for whalers. The article provides direct links to every single whaler posted on Craigslist, boat trader, yacht world, etc, etc. It even has a 19 page check list you can download on how to survey a used whaler in it. So now it is up to a buyer to get on it and start searching. It is also a buyers responsibility to post a Want To Buy (WTB) ad if they are looking for something. That is the best way know what someone is looking for. This way others can keep an eye out and pass along info as they see fit.
While your actions did not help matters there are others that have nothing to be proud of here as well. Henry had every right to try and keep his thread on track but, others who started piling on hold some blame as well. Yes, I even made a post way back when about your "holiday" pricing of a Nauset model even before all of this Outrage business started. But it was left at that. A comment about pricing. Not long drawn out personal attacks. It seemed like this small group fed off each other and threw it all back up for everyone else to watch and deal with. It is sad. Because I bet everyone here if they met on a dock without having any history would get along.
Hell I even extended a hand to the person I had my worst online feud with.
Pecos23, (David Petroskey) turns out is a great guy. I wrote him back in Mid-End of December and stated "In the true Holiday spirit Truce." I explained what I knew about the boat for sale and the lost sales the seller had. I also said I held nothing against him and I was truly sorry if I had upset him. With that I reintroduced myself and offer help in his search to find an 18. He and I have had may email conversions since and have moved on. I am currently trying to get him touch with a friend who had an 18 that he may sell.
Sitting a a computer screen you can lose sight of the fact of there is a real person attached to a screen name. That keyboard courage can bring out the worst in people. Looks like it has gotten the best of a lot of people lately. Hope things turn around.
And yes thank you again Jim. I still hold firm on these types of postings.
posted 01-24-2008 06:13 AM ET (US)
Jimh- While I understand your guidelines, and the purpose of this post, it is unfortunate that this has happened. I enjoy seeing all types of Whalers for sale, and consider it educational content. It gives us all an idea of unique and novel modifications, different types and styles of Whalers, and an idea about the current market by providing the reader comparables from all over the country. I have seen some really cool modifications, and some great examples of what not to do, on the marketplace forum. Respectfully-k
posted 01-24-2008 07:17 AM ET (US)
I agree with mintauk, and think more listings would benefit both buyers and sellers in the long run. This site probably gets the hits hulltruth does, but there are few boats listed. Last two whalers I purchased were from bassbarn and craigs, from CW members. MartyD
posted 01-24-2008 08:46 AM ET (US)
Guys, if you are looking to buy a Whaler then make friends with Jeff. I don't know how he does it, but he seams to find and track them all.
posted 01-24-2008 09:48 AM ET (US)
Thank you Jim, message received loud and clear and agreed with 100 percent.
posted 01-24-2008 11:25 AM ET (US)
jimh: Maybe you can open a new discussion area named 'Marketplace II / Extraneous Advertising' with it's own guidelines and you could measure the response to it.
posted 01-24-2008 12:14 PM ET (US)
There is an easy way around this. Instead of using pointers to send us to other sites, why not instead direct the sellers to CW. That would help expand the offerings on marketplace and CW as a whole.
posted 01-24-2008 12:55 PM ET (US)
I only post 3rd party stuff when it "looks" to be great deal that I HOPE a CW member winds up buying. I do not list E-Bay items because anyone can look up e-bay and search the 3 or so pages of listings. The difference is when I read an ad in the Sarasota Herald or craigslist for what "looks" to be a steal. How is somebody in Dixie County gonna keep track of every paper in Sarasota County? I do not think this is an injustice to CW because I know of a few who have bought the boats I have listed and in turn I have bought a couple boats from CW members that have listed them here as well and were not "affiliated" with the boat. I also do not think that someone who posts "Dallas dealer has new 190 Montauks for $24,995" is doing us a disservice either. This allows a prospective buyer to take that info to his dealer and say "Hey...What gives Mack?" I do however think that those who post EVERY whaler they see in the paper is not necessary. I also think that those who post 190's for $36k saying it is a great deal, should not be able to do so when you can get a brand spanky new one for $38k. If you don't know what a good deal is, don't hit the send button.
I also think that NOBODY should EVER comment on a person's ad unless the seller asks for advice or it is just a "Shout out" about the boat like nice boat or I have seen this boat, sweet, etc. I have tried to warn people or give advice about their ad, only to be scorn at by the seller who misinterpreted what I was trying to say. Now I just let it ride. If somebody is stupid enough to post" Whaler for sale, call Joe at XXX" then let it be. Lastly I wish Jim would also not allow one time sellers to drop in here and put up ads for their trailers or electronics BUSINESS, etc. Main reason is they do not come back so we have a thread that goes nowhere which is basically spam. If sosmerc wishes to sell or Kingsteven that is one thing because they are Whaler owners and members here but to allow Trailerman to swing by once a month and drop off a "spam flyer" is absolutely wrong in my opinion.
posted 01-24-2008 03:29 PM ET (US)
I really wish you would reconsider allowing people to post 3rd party sales. There appears to be MANY MORE people who think you should allow 3rd party sale postings than prohibit them. I know its your sight, but to prohibit 3rd party postings when the vast majority of your members want it, seems unfair. The future "Policing" you will have to do to insure everyone is treated equally, is unfair to you too. I encourage other CW Members to give you their opinion on this topic here on this thread so you can determine if a reconsideration is warranted. Thanks for listening.
Thank you for taking the time to fully explain your thinking. I do not agree with everything that you said in your post, but I surely respect you and your beliefs. I really don't agree, however, that I wrecked the ability to post third party sales for everyone.
First of all, I posted the 2007 190 Outrage for sale AFTER Henry (Yiddle) said he boat was no longer for sale. Therefore, I have no idea why you or Jim H seems to think that my post regarding the 190 Outrage was an attack on Henry's sale when he was not selling his boat!
Second, if anyone's actions wrecked it for everyone it was Henry (Yiddle). I'm sure he was e-mailing Jim H every day with some type of complaint until Jim H could not take it anymore. I'm sure he will find something else to bitch and moan about in the future. In my opinion, the more Jim H listens, the more Henry will want. If I was Jim H, I would tell Henry to grow up and act like a man or remove him from the sight. When Henry was selling his boat, I posted on his sale thread because he was posting false and misleading information. In the future I will notify Jim H of blatantly wrong information instead of responding in that person's thread.
Finally, I want to say that the way you handled your response shows what a class act you are. Unfortunately, I came to a "quick" conclussion on what type of person you were when you called another CW member a deadbeat. I have since seen your true colors come through when you came to a truce and became friends with that person. I want to admit that I was wrong and you are a great asset to the BW community.
Everybody will have their own opinion on what a "great deal" is. You mention that one can buy a brand new 190 Outrage for $38k, so the 190 Outrage that I posted for $36k was not a great deal. Well, I respectfully disagree.
posted 01-24-2008 03:50 PM ET (US)
Who said I was talking to you?
I was talking about 190 Montauks and I said if somebody posts a great deal on a used 190 for $36 and the boat show special is selling $38k, don't post it, etc. I never mentioned you or an Outrage. Now stop trying to kiss Jim's butt and get back to trolling or whatever you do best.
posted 01-24-2008 04:11 PM ET (US)
friend99, you are the Mike Matusow of CW.
posted 01-24-2008 04:29 PM ET (US)
Thanks for clarifying that. You had me (or yourself) confused because the $38k price your refer to is what a new 190 Outrage can be bought for, not a new 190 Montauk. FYI, a new 190 Montauk that is pretty much loaded can be bought for under $30k, if you know which dealer to go to and how to to "deal" with them.
posted 01-24-2008 06:31 PM ET (US)
IMHO, I think there is at least one benefit for third party ads, or if not ads at least member pointers/links.
Right now I'm trying to find a suitable air inflatable dhingy with a small 2 or 4 stroke motor. Trying to find one on craigslist is a bit complicated because you can only search by city/state, whatever. The best it gets is doing a google search.
If Jim established a forum for 3rd party sales it might get a whaler in the hands of a prospective CW member that wouldn't have found it otherwise. I found my Whaler on CW and hope I find another one again in the future.
My $.02- - Lars
posted 01-24-2008 07:34 PM ET (US)
Here is my view:
Jenny posts an ad on her local Craig's List for her Whaler. Five people see it, none of whom are boat buyers.
Someone reposts Jenny's ad here on CONTINUOUSWAVE, where maybe 2,500 buyers see it.
Jenny sells her boat. She thinks, "Wow--that Craig's List is the way to sell your Boston Whaler boat."
Change Craig's List to some commercial website where Jenny paid $150 to list her boat.
Who is helping who here?
posted 01-24-2008 08:23 PM ET (US)
I agree with Jim (and even if I didn't I would respect his decisions). Plus Jeff is right about some members of this site getting edged out of a purchase. People can always post a wtb (want to buy) or wanted thread on marketplace or elsewhere and many CW members will be happy to help out and e-mail leeds about a specific boat. I bought my Montauk from a CW member. There have been times when I've met people who wanted to sell their Whaler and told them about this site and suggested they consider placing an ad here on their own. Some have. Jim, thank you for a great web site.
posted 01-24-2008 08:30 PM ET (US)
Every year during the winter months, there are Whalers for sale on the Texas coast at prices that are absolutely STUNNING. When I see a cherry Newtauk with a nice running motor for $2,500 (it happened), I feel obliged to advise those that would most appreciate such a find. That would be members of this forum. Regardles of whether its from craigslist or the Coastal Bend Adsack, I've always felt that I was doing a service for my fellow Whaler enthusiasts. If you wish me to stop this practice I'll be glad to do so, but I doubt that it will be the best way of serving the BW community.
Thanks for your great website.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 01-24-2008 08:38 PM ET (US)
This is a perfectly sensible policy for Jim to articulate. I commend him for stating it plainly.
There are literally thousands of Boston Whalers and related parts for-sale ads on the internet at any given point in time. Why do we need to reproduce them here when they are at your fingertips anyway?
For the crybabies who feel short-changed, let me help you out with the short cuts:
posted 01-24-2008 08:54 PM ET (US)
I support Jim's policy, as well as Jeff's approach of reaching out to people offline with leads.
For those looking to search craigslist, try the following site:
It will allow you to easily search across the different states and cities. There are other, similar sites which offer assistance with craigslist.
posted 01-24-2008 09:07 PM ET (US)
If Jenny's boat sells after it is posted on CW, that means a CW member bought her boat, so I believe the CW member is benefiting as well as Jenny. If that "great deal" is never posted to CW, then chances are that "great deal" would be bought by a non CW member. Wouldn't you rather see someone from CW buy the boat? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you want CW to get acknowledged somehow for the boat sale? Receive an advertising fee? I am not being cute, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
I do understand your concern, but to be honest with you I don't believe anyone (including myself) has abused the third party posting privledge (go back and look at the postings yourself). Most of the posting have been good to great deals and not a wholesale reproduction of the boats for sale on boats.com or any other place.
To be honest with you, I think posting third party sales on CW helps the true BW enthusiast to "beat out" the "boat flipper" to a great deal. I would think you would be happy with that result.
By the way, I do not consider myself a boat flipper. There are a number of boat sellers that constantly sell Boston Whaler boats on ebay, some of them are CW members. I am not knocking them, but I am telling you that I am NOT one of those ebay BW sellers that many people think I am. In fact, I have only sold 3 or 4 boats on ebay in my life. So to set the record straight, I am not the person from barnegat or the one from Newton New Jersey who is constantly selling on ebay. Again, I am not knocking what they do...I am just telling you, and everyone else, that I am not them. I do love Whalers and have owned many, but if I can get a good deal on a Whaler, I buy and sell it to "fund" my many hobbies. I do not do it full time and I view it as a hobby that I enjoy in my spare time. The money is secondary, but always nice. In summary, if a BW enthusiast gets to a boat before me, thats fine and by allowing third party postings on your sight you will give the BW enthusiast a better chance to buy the boat before the boat broker/flipper gets to it.
Rick Dewees............I agree with you 100%......just like so many other CW members!
Tom Clark.........I respectfully disagree. It is extremely time consuming to search all the boat sale sights not to mention "specialty classifieds" and local adverstisements. Allowing third party posting helps the BW enthusiast, who has a day job, locate a great deal and I am all for that! I am curious to know if you against third party posting because you are a boat dealer/broker?
posted 01-24-2008 09:07 PM ET (US)
I will even make it easier. Just click on the links in this article to find all of the whalers you can. All of the keywords are input for you. I search all of these at least once a week but once a day is the norm. This is how if find all of the Whalers and parts I do. Newt knows.
posted 01-24-2008 09:19 PM ET (US)
Great link, Jeff! Thanks!
All-- Jimh has spoken. He wants the Marketplace to be lean and have a higher percentage of posts related to actual sales that happen. Not a bunch of horse traders chewing the fat about boats they have no intention of buying.
If you are serious about a purchase, post a wanted ad with a fair price. People will reply.
It seems some folks think they can control the market and prices by spending tons of time and energy debating here--trying to get that amazing deal. If those same folks instead spend their time on a 2nd job, it would pay for the boat of their dreams--or at least afford a fair price on the boat they want.
posted 01-24-2008 11:10 PM ET (US)
Superdave, I think you misunderstood. Jim H gave his view and in the spirit of democracy has opened it up for discussion. You favor not allowing third party sales to be posted here, which is certainly your right.
I believe its an injustice to CW members to not allow third party postings. Posting third party sales that are "great deals" helps the BW enthusiast, who does not have a lot of money or spare time on his/her hands, to find a great deal. Nothing wrong with that......score one for the underdog....thats my feeling.
Now, lets hear what some of the other members think.
posted 01-25-2008 07:41 AM ET (US)
Friend99, using words like "right" and "injustice" make me wonder if you have elevated this issue to a level on par with your moral compass. Maybe that is why you are lobbing posts back and forth. Not trying to tick you off or start a flame war. I don't think any of the folks you have debated with lately would even give you the credit of having a moral compass :).
I personally don't think that it is in line with "Marketplace" guidelines to debate in either this thread, or anyone's for sale or wanted thread.
Last post on it from me.
posted 01-25-2008 07:58 AM ET (US)
Why is a hot babe like Jenny selling her Whaler?
Talk amongst yourselves.
posted 01-25-2008 09:01 AM ET (US)
I never had a problem with third party postings. Heck, I'll take any lead on a nice Whaler. But more importantly, I want the good boats, at the good prices, to go to the people who appreciate them most.
The only problem I have seen in the past is when the sniveling starts about "the cat being let out of the bag" on a good deal. It might blow if you were a prospective buyer, but it's great if you are the seller. And since virtually all of us have been both a buyer and a seller, the result is a wash.
In the end, I will of course abide by jimh's wishes. It's his site, and I am eternally grateful that CW is here at all, and maintained to such a high standard.
posted 01-25-2008 10:21 AM ET (US)
"Why is a hot babe like Jenny selling her Whaler?"
Jenny seems to be both hot and smart!
posted 01-25-2008 11:25 AM ET (US)
No sweat off my back Jim...your wish is our command. Since the marketplace is unmoderated, how will this be policed?
What about parts? If I see a RPS seat, etc which many here are looking for used, is that OK? There obviously would not be a flood of them posted since it is far and few between. Usually when I do post a rare part ad, it is snatched up within hours by a CW memeber.
posted 01-25-2008 11:28 AM ET (US)
PS...I looked at Jenny's Whaler...not exactly hot. Her sides are wavy, stern is sagging, and the topside is faded & spidercracked all around the eyes. I won't even mention the condition of the thru-hulls ;)
posted 01-25-2008 05:49 PM ET (US)
Maybe we have hit on a potential new topic for a reference article titled "How To Search for Boston Whalers". I'll miss seeing the varied and interesting Whalers that were in the 3rd party adds. I like this site, though, so I'll play by the rules (most of the time ;-)).
posted 01-25-2008 06:07 PM ET (US)
Wait! Wait! WaiT!Lets talk about Jenny's thru- Hulls :) Now were getting somewhere! At least send me a a third party link by email back channel please!!That was so funny:)
I agree, maybe we have hit on a potential new topic for a reference article titled "Jenny's thru-hulls, Love um or leave um" To Funny!
posted 01-25-2008 06:18 PM ET (US)
Just what dont you understand,, Jimh said he dosent want it done anymore,,so thats it,, piss and moan somewhere else
posted 01-25-2008 08:22 PM ET (US)
Gentlemen (and Ladies, I assume there are some),
There is an underlying problem here that has obviously reared it's ugly head to the point of getting out of control, amongst a community that most likely prides itself in control. Let all of us boaters remember, we are a community of like minded individuals who rely on each other for well-being, for information, for comrade-ship, for safety, in short, a united bunch. Let the divisiveness fall to the hands that would have you divided. I work for Pro-Line, yet I love Whalers, I love Grady-Whites, I love Pursuits. In short, I love boats and the enjoyment they give you. There is no room in my weekend for someone who thinks they can "top" me. That is not the point in life.
I wish all of your community a happy New Year and hopefully some better times soon, although I wouldn't hold my breath. Just remember, win-win situations benefit everyone, and that's what counts. I'm sure some of you have noticed my posts on your site "touting my wares". But sometimes, one has to step back and look at the bigger things in life. I wish you all the best.
Sincerely, a proud member of CW,
posted 01-26-2008 12:01 AM ET (US)
I will chime in as well-
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Jim.
and there was much rejoicing.........
posted 01-26-2008 12:08 AM ET (US)
Jim, at first I thought that maybe you were being too strict, but thats a really valid point about effecting other for-sale forums/sites that have the original post, very good point.
Actually I found myself a few times on craiglist, emailing a whaler for-sale owner about CW marketplace. If you think about it, it takes the same time to email the seller on another forum and suggest your site than it does to link marketplace to remote site. I hope the former is still ok.
posted 01-26-2008 11:36 PM ET (US)
Well, like I said before, not allowing third party sales to be posted on CW hurts the Whaler enthusiast and helps the boat broker/dealer/flipper. If thats what Jim H wants to do, its fine and better for me.
My discussion was more about "caving into" cry babies like Yiddle (Henry) than it was for allowing posting third party sales. Again, if thats what Jim H wants to do, thats fine with me.
posted 01-26-2008 11:47 PM ET (US)
posted 01-27-2008 01:26 AM ET (US)
I tend to agree with Jim's decision. The Market place was getting to be like the wild west - I've commented a few times about the contentious postings that had nothing to do with the original intent of the thread - to buy or sell a specific item. Much like this thread, it made for some pretty interesting reading.
I often thought to take pictures of Whalers with phone numbers I see in my area and posting a link to photobucket for an unafilliated en masse "tip" for anyone interested ("NC Whalers for sale" or some such), thinking/hoping I would be doing some sort of "good samaritan" service to folks that might be looking here (continuous wave) for something that might work for them as well as some seller here (SE NC)that would (maybe) be pleasantly surprised that an anonymous neighbor hooked them up to a possible sale (likely serious inquiry) when they get a call from someone in Sheboygan truly interested in buying (whether it worked out or not, not my business).
Well, now I know not to and that is cool with me. I believe Jim had to take some stance and weigh in to put a stop to the trashing of the threads and each other in the Market. Someone has to be the sheriff and Jim holds that post, it was up to him to do something and he has.
As someone said here - if you see a godd deal you don't think has enough exposure - contact the seller and direct them here - or back channel through email to the poster you are trying to help.
And yet the Market Place itself places banner ads that direct you to other sites for "great deals" with "free shipping"..... Interesting.
I'm on board with the decision (pun intended).
posted 01-27-2008 01:31 AM ET (US)
I made my post and was retrned to thread to find this link at the top:
posted 01-27-2008 09:31 AM ET (US)
Fiend99 , where did you get "in the spirit of democracy [JimH] has opened it up to discussion". He made a statement that he does not like it and please refrain from doing it, it's not open to discussion, it's not a democracy, you state you are fine with it, then that is it! You state you are a flipper then that is it! Now you are calling our friend Yiddil a problem, you attacked him to the point of him resorting to your game. You set out to hurt Henry and you did, that is just wrong! I disagree with Jim and think posting something might not be too bad , but you have eliminated it not Jim, you caused the whole problem. Don't post here like you are the Maretplace moderator, and how you are going to watch all postings for lies and report to Jim. Marketplace is for selling, not debating, and here you go again. You seem to enjoy arguing with poeople , why not use the "Meta" section where that is done, and leave the rest of the site alone. You know good old Henry is right, all those times he was posting while probaly having a heart attack, you are a Loser, flipper! As before on my one other post to you, I feel better now, but please jusr go away!....Jack
posted 01-27-2008 10:20 AM ET (US)
Amen to what Bulldog wrote.
posted 01-27-2008 12:11 PM ET (US)
This 99 guy is the only one on here that does not or will not posted his email address or his likes or hobbies,, I never liked all the secret squirrel stuff in the military(as nessary as it was),,Why are you so secretive,,I guess you dont want to be friendly^@^,,Are you sure this is the place for you,,Speaking of friendly has anyone heard from Hooter^@^ now there was a friendly guy and down to earth,,
posted 01-27-2008 01:43 PM ET (US)
Perhaps our "little friend" should take a closer look at jimh's profile:
Since he doesn't read any or post on any other forum, I'll just post a few of my favorites from jimh's profile:
Occupation: Irrational, inconsistent, egomanical forum-NAZI control freek(sic) primitive website provider.
Interests: Publicly flogging members for not meeting standards for writing competency. Keen in passing off uneducated thoughts as facts. Running website with a Messiah complex
posted 01-27-2008 05:26 PM ET (US)
Bulldog.....You sounded much more intelligent in a previous post when your entire post consisited of one word ("Wow"). In your last post all you do is ramble on about nothing. It seems you just keep on bringing up old topics that have been resolved. Here are the items that were already resolved BEFORE you posted which you keep bringing up:
1. I said if Jim H does not want to allow third party postings, its fine with me. I recognize this is his site and I will respect any decision he makes even if I don't agree with it.
2. I never attacked Yiddle. In fact it was quite the opposite. I just questioned information that he posted that was false (he said a new Outrage 190 would cost $48k with his options, when in fact it can be bought for $35k or less (with his options) after dealer discounts and incentives if the dealer equipted it with a 115 HP motor) and questioned information that was misleading (he said a 115HP motor on a 19' Nantucket performs as well as a 150 HP motor)
3. I did not hurt Yiddle's sale. He had his boat posted on other sites, such as Whaler Central and others, with absolutely NO comments from me and it did not sell. He has a beautiful boat, but IMO his asking price and minimum HP 115 motor for the 19' Nantucket hull is what hurts his sale. On another sale thread, his buddy DaveS said it best when talking about putting the minimum HP motor on what a hull is rated for he said...."minimum" listed for the hull...depending upon what you'd like to use it for, ie: fishing, cruising, touring...it might be OK...but it will probably limit your resale value...I'm going to go out on a limb that if this boat hasn't been listed for long...it will be...if there's one thing people really don't like will be an underpowered boat."
I'm glad posting your message made you feel better Bulldog, but lets move forward and stop bringing up the past. Lets get back to what this great site was designed for.
posted 01-27-2008 07:30 PM ET (US)
"Lately a new practice has entered the MARKETPLACE in which second-party announcements are posted pointing to items offered for sale in other places by other parties. It was never intended that the MARKETPLACE would try to collect and organize information about items offered for sales elsewhere...."
Boater12 just posted a beautifully restored 1978 Montauk for $11,500.... how much interest will he get when ebay lists a 2001 Ventura 18 for $12,100 at the top of his thread???
posted 01-27-2008 07:57 PM ET (US)
BlueMax..........you raise an interesting point. The banner ads are third party sales postings too. Will they be prohibited (stopped) too?
posted 01-27-2008 08:14 PM ET (US)
Blue Max -- that Ventura is over 14K right now. But, that's not the issue. The ads help Jim run the site. I really feel for Jim. He's done so much to help us all. And now, when he sets policy he's harassed by a d-bag like F-----. You have to admire Jim's patience. Really the only improvement I'd make to this site is having an ignore feature so I wouldn't be able to view F-----'s posts. Jim's trying to restore peace and F is clearly trying to throw wood on the fire.
posted 01-27-2008 08:34 PM ET (US)
BlueMax--If you would like to place an ad in the banner position, please contact me for details about that option.
posted 01-27-2008 08:42 PM ET (US)
Dan.......please be careful when you use words like harass. It can get you in trouble. Nobody is trying to harass Jim H, or anyone else. Everyone, including me, appreciates Jim's hard work on this site and said we would follow HIS RULES.
BlueMax made a comment about the banner ads and I was curious about whether they will continue (I have no idea why they are here to begin with and perhaps BlueMax has no idea either). You then "read into" the posts and come to your conclussions of "harassment" and "throwing wood on the fire". This is ridiculous and WRONG! Please take your medicine and just skip to the next post when you see my name. You don't need an ignore feature......all you have to do is skip my posts if you don't want to read them. It seems the pills you are taking to correct this behavior are not working. Now, please stop the personal attacks.
posted 01-27-2008 08:57 PM ET (US)
F----- harass harass harass to infinity. As you write, if you appreciate and follow Jim's rules then why don't you STFU already? Everyone on this site wishes you would just point your non-Whaler towards the horizon and be gone forever -- bon voyage d-bag.
posted 01-27-2008 09:17 PM ET (US)
Jim H......I don't know how much you can or want to pursue banner ads, but I'm sure there would be some BW dealers that would be interested in advertising some of there used inventory or "hot deals on new boats" to move left overs. I'm sure many of us have contacts at BW dealers that may be interested. It would be great exposure for them and great for CW if it helps you run the sight. Seems like a win-win.
posted 01-27-2008 09:19 PM ET (US)
Just an observation,
Friend99, there is a point where one has to let go of one's opinion, and let things lay. Your 2 cents ( and, unfortunately, they usually tally up to $1) won't change anybody's thoughts on whatever. But you insist. As an observer of this website, and therefore human nature, I suggest you start you own Whaler website where you are in control, and not JimH. Or anyone else, for that matter.
I suppose it is your inalienable right to speak your mind via the 1st amendment to the Constitution, but when it's pretty apparent that your "comments" are not welcome by the majority of the membership, don't you think it is time to move on and find your own niche? Regardless in your mind whether things are "right" or "wrong", it is clear you are not welcome on CW. So give it a rest, and give all these fine people a rest. They have a great deal of knowledge about a boat they hold near and dear to their hearts. Do they think their boat is worth more than the market says it is? You're damn right they do! That's probably something you wouldn't understand. It's called passion. You either have it, or you don't.
Think about what I have said. We all could use a little dose of our own reality check. Use the knowledge you have, which you seem to have plenty, for doing the world some good. Not pissing people off! Take care, and good luck.
posted 01-27-2008 09:38 PM ET (US)
I absolutely agree with you that the amount of grief jimh is undeservedly taking over this is not pretty and at times quite petty. I too admire the amount of heart that goes into making and keeping this site what it is - and have no issue with the banners and ads themselves (so long as we keep the married and available / meet singles in your area type ads out). I'm not so much taking issue with jim's decision to have ads or ban posting of ads as much as I am just simply pointing out what seems to be the hypocrisy of the statement and decision in light of the fact that the ads are there in the market place. I could see if ads were allowed in all other areas, but not in the Market based upon the proclamation made introdcing/reinforcing the decision and policies of this area of the site....
Think about it - read Jim's statement - and look at the ads linking you to other sites and other folks sales in direct opposition to what was just decreed. To me it is like lighting up at the table while you declare that smoking will not be tolerated...."practice what you preach" is what the family members would say.
That Ventura is just an example of that conflict - It's irrelevant what the boat lists for now . Look at it objectively - When I went to the thread it was listed at $12,100. If I had gone to boater12's thread with thought/intent to purchase and was given/offered a link to a 23 year NEWER boat for sale advertised at only $600 more... well, as a buyer on the hunt I just have to check that out... in which case I just got pulled away from boater12's sale and then I spend my time perusing e-bay's sales where I see SO many other much newer boats competing for a few dollars more all over the place. I wind up spending so much time looking at ebay's links that I eventually forget about buying a '78 to begin with and especially at that price when I can get much newer for comparative little more. As it turns out, I wind up being the one who bought Jenny's Whaler and boater12's Dad is left to pay for his sailboat's rigging out of his savings.
I believe it is the intent of Jim's decision to prevent this (as well as the personal attacks and deliberate undermining of sales that the threads were degrading into). I fully support his opening the site to banners to assist in funding the costs - especially since he does not request or expect any fees for sales that are made on this site. I don't mind them and have clicked on a few just out of interest. Maybe eventually - hopefully - the ads on this website can turn a full-time love and hobby into a profitable venture for him and he can kick back and cruise the seas while the site generates some decent income.
I am looking at this from an objective position and I simply find it ironic that:
"Therefore, it would be greatly appreciated that posting of announcements of items being sold elsewhere by second parties be stopped."
is headed by announcements to buy items elsewhere.... and boater12 has a link placed by the site itself to a 23 year newer boat advertised for $600 more as soon as he posts. Just thought "hmmmm... that's interesting, what about that?"
I respect Jim and all that make this site as great as it is, and have no problems playing by the rules, but - as an adult who was just told in no uncertain terms what the rules are - I respectfully offer two addages:
1) Lead by example
Again - my earlier post was not a knock for the sake of knocking - just pointing out the irony in the altruistic wording of the announcement and the reality of the practice.
We hold these truths to be self-evident... sounds great, but when you practice - by "all men" we mean - no women, no blacks, no Irish and definetly no gays (unless you're good-looking gay women).... kinda puts a damper on it.....
posted 01-27-2008 10:05 PM ET (US)
Well.....this seems like a good time for me to tell everybody that I have found a dealer selling very rare and hard to find parts for Whalers. He doesn't post here because his primary business is to another brand of boat. These parts have been out of production for many years and many people with classic hulls are looking for these items.
Enjoy the search...I found them, and bought what I needed.
posted 01-27-2008 11:46 PM ET (US)
Well...actually it seems like a good time to take a break! I've received a lot of help from this site for being a relative newbie, and have what I need for a while. I've been posting useless stuff, and am becoming part of what I see as the problem, sorry about that. I'm not gone, just getting the teak for the boat tommorrow, and have a lot to do, Sea-Ya.....Jack
posted 01-28-2008 08:42 AM ET (US)
Anyone who doesn't like the rules doesn't have to play.
posted 01-28-2008 09:04 AM ET (US)
Seabob4.......thanks for your observation. I don't agree with it, and certainly will not follow your suggestions, but you are entitled to your opinion.
I will not encourage further discussion by telling you why I disagree. Also, as a 3 month member, I don't think you have enough "history" to make some of your comments, but again I will take the high road and not respond. Now, lets move forward and put this in the past. See you around.
posted 01-28-2008 09:44 AM ET (US)
One thing I have noticed, and this applies to life in general and not just to this situation, is that the longer people are given things for free, the more they tend to think they have earned them. And the more they tend to complain about them. In my work we used to do business with a very nice fellow and every time we were at his location, which included a restaurant, he would provide our crew with a free lunch. This policy was in place for years, and everyone enjoyed the courtesy. However, a couple of people began to complain about the free lunch, the quality of the food, the location, and so on. Soon the complaints reached the fellow who was providing the free lunch. He heard the complainers loud and clear, and he simply retracted his offer of a free lunch. We continued doing business with this fellow, but we had to buy our own lunch.
Posting notices of for sale here for first-party sellers is available at no charge to the first-party. Posting notice of for sale here for second-party sellers is not available at no-charge. Arguments that this is not a consistent policy ultimately reduce to the notion that everything should be free. For supporters of that concept, please send me some new free 150-HP motors for my boat. Thanks in advance, too.
posted 01-28-2008 09:51 AM ET (US)
Really...I don't disagree with you.
It just seems a shame that when I find rare parts available, that many Whaler owners would love to hear about, I can't tell them.
I will follow the rules, but for people trying to find the two piece plastic bow lenses for a classic Whaler....they're actually out there.
posted 01-28-2008 10:27 AM ET (US)
Massi-- The marketplace would apply to your example if you had one for sale. Or the store owner would be well advised (by you) to post them for sale.
This thread errantly turned into a civil liberties debate (as so many do) instead of just letting Jimh reminding us of the guidelines of his site.
Jimh is a custodian of this site for people to use for many many years (we are talking about up to 50 year old boats). He is unfortunately too often a custodian of banter that detracts from the original purpose of the website. SO.....
So, Massi, if you please---your options within the guidelines:
You could also send an email to Jimh to add that supplier to a list of parts suppliers:
Your light example may also be a good item to post in the repair section. You could tag a reply onto this post where I rewired one instead of replacing using some Radio Shack parts:
posted 01-28-2008 10:47 AM ET (US)
Dave you could always make a post about parts you got for your Whaler and tell members to contact you for information. Plus people can post WTB threads and members can e-mail info.
I don't view Jim's policy as being restrictive. I've shared this site URL with dozens of people, many of whom placed ads in the marketplace for their items.
Jim, I loved your story about the free lunch. I once had a businessman tell me that if you don't charge for something, then people will assume it has no value. Sort of like the expression No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.
posted 01-28-2008 10:50 AM ET (US)
Huh?!?!? New practice??? This has been going on since I started visiting this website several years ago! I think the real reason jimh has brought this up is that some of the people who are paying for the banner ads complained to him about the craigslist referrals we post here. It's that or the man has alzheimer's.
posted 01-28-2008 11:20 AM ET (US)
Allowing third party positings on the Continuous Wave has allowed me access to listings that I would not have come across without the help of it's members. Please reconsider the new policy and keep the market place free and open.
On a side note. this is my first post on the site. I've been saving it for something I feel strongly about. I've been checking and reading threads for a couple months now. I really get a kick out of the banter between some of the unnamed members. I admire thier enthusiasm and completely enjoy the verbal battles of epic proportion.
posted 01-28-2008 11:43 AM ET (US)
There really has never been a problem with any of this until a couple of people decided they would try to screw up a few postings of for-sale with snippy comments. I think everyone can recognize who is participating here for the general benefit of all and who is participating here to be an ass.
Please follow the guidelines and there won't be a problem.
posted 01-28-2008 11:55 AM ET (US)
I like your suggestion that davidmassi email Jim with the information regarding the vendor.
Too often we forget about the policies and procedures that are already in place.
I think many people, myself included, focus on the forums of this site, and forget the reference area is also dynamic and updated with information as it is collected.
posted 01-28-2008 02:18 PM ET (US)
I guess - looking at it from a different perspective - the place to post general info for "finds" would be better suited to the GAM and not the MarketPlace to begin with. MarketPlace being an area to buy or sell and not a place to divert others to a good deal.
I had come across a great deal offered on-line for custom fit Sunbrella boat covers (and other material/ semi-custom covers). It never even occurred to me to post the info in the MarketPlace as I was not the offering the goods - i was just alerting others to something I though they may be interested in. As it turns out, I did not have a very good experience with the company on my sale - got two wrong covers sent and their owner's customer service attitude sucked - to bad so sad for them and me. HOWEVER, others that read my post and were interested in getting covers for their boats clicked the link provided, found the the deal and cover they wanted and had a very good experience with the purchase (I mean, heck, a custom fit Sunbrella cover with motor hood, 12 tie down straps and a storage bag for $355 delivered.... come on, how can you not tell anyone else about that). But, again, I agree that the place to post "great finds" would not be in the MarketPlace if you are not the seller.
Think about it - you go to a someone else's market/yard sale and tell everyone there they can find a better deal somewhere else, you're just begging to get bopped.
Sorry all - especially Jim - for my high-minded civil-liberties diatribe, I got caught up in reading all the posts was struck by the irony of the proclamation in contrast to the site area's own provided links to ebay and elsewhere for boats and such posted with it. I get too caught up in my self righteous self sometimes. I should take some of Henry's disruption avoidance tips and kick the dog or something before posting. (I don't have a dog, but some nights I sure wouldn't mind kicking the neighbor's. I think I'll use "tried not responding to an on-line thread" as my excuse for doing so). ha.
As Emily Latella would say.... Never Mind..... :-)
posted 01-28-2008 02:34 PM ET (US)
Jimh - Is it Okay to post "great deals" found in the GAM?
That is where I had posted my cover deals "find" and it seemed to fly without devolving into a mud-slinging fest and others seemed to benfit from the info. Is that okay to post those type things there?
(PS - that $355 was for a Carver Industries custom fit Sunbrella cover for a 2007 170 Montauk - my wife tells me the 3rd and correct cover arrived the day after I left and looks pretty good - although she did not know how to make it tight... I get home next week - she sent some pictures from her camera phone and I can't wait to see it and check fit in person).
posted 01-28-2008 09:08 PM ET (US)
You know, there are certain people in this world that will tell you that, "The whole world is wrong, I'm right!" God, I forget what psychiatrists' call them...
posted 01-28-2008 09:23 PM ET (US)
Ask your psychiatrist at your next visit. Also ask him/her what you can do to correct your "I am always right" thinking.
posted 01-28-2008 10:01 PM ET (US)
Never mind. Some things are truly pointless, and I have a lot better things to do with my life.
posted 01-28-2008 10:05 PM ET (US)
posted 01-28-2008 10:14 PM ET (US)
Seabob4, well said. This damn fool is not worth the wasted bandwidth.
The fiend will respond to this, since his mental illness requires him to have the last word. If no one responds to that last word, this nonsense will stop. And whenever he puts his stupid nose into any thread, the same thing should happen. Only then will he tire of this and go bother his mom for more fruit juice.
posted 01-28-2008 10:30 PM ET (US)
dscew....LOL! Lets see if you can practice what you preech this time. Your prior attempts have been unsuccessful. Now, please give it a break and stop acting like a 2 year old.
posted 01-29-2008 11:37 AM ET (US)
It is times like these that I am embarassed to say I am from NJ.
posted 01-29-2008 01:24 PM ET (US)
Anyone else miss the days when "RyanWhaler" was this site's biggest distraction?
posted 01-29-2008 01:31 PM ET (US)
Man...Ryan is probably in Law school by now.
posted 01-29-2008 01:32 PM ET (US)
Information is power; a universal prinicple, with application to this matter as well. Share the Whaler information; share the power; share the wealth.
What I think is more of a problem, than third-party postings, are critical comments posted in response to an item announced for sale. The classified section should be limited to postings about items for sale and replies from indiviuals interested in purchasing the item. Period.
posted 01-29-2008 01:32 PM ET (US)
At least Ryan grew up!
posted 01-29-2008 01:58 PM ET (US)
I hear you...but at least you got out!!! Won't be too many more years and I might join you down in Florida!
I remember Ryan as well...if memory serves me...he's one of our "success stories"...I think JB was trying to mentor him a while until he even ticked him off...but then he seemed to settle down...graduation and responsiblities will do that to a person...
I can't wait for summer...at least then I'll be able to head out in my whaler...
posted 01-29-2008 04:29 PM ET (US)
I agree that the "real" problem in the MarketPlace was critical comments posted in response to a persons item for sale. It was done to me in my sales thread and to others in their sales thread. Everyone, me included, has agreed to stop posting negative comments in someone elses sales thread and if we think there is a serious problem with a for sale posting to bring it to Jim H attention. This will certainly stop a lot of arguments.
In my opinion, there has never been a problem with a third party sales postings. Some members, however, got upset when I posted a third party "great deal" for a 190 Outrage because they said a CW member had a similiar boat for sale and this "great deal" would hurt that members ability to sell. First of all, they did not realize that the CW member closed his sales thread and said his boat was "no longer for sale" before I posted the third party sale of the 190 Outrage. Second, even if the CW member's boat was still for sale the third party sale posting did nothing to hurt his sale thread.
Third party sale postings are no longer allowed because Jim H does not believe they should be allowed in the MarketPlace (if you read Jim H's above posts you will see why he feels this way). Some people agree with his decision, others do not. At first, I thought third party postings should be allowed, but after giving it some additional thought, I'm not sure. In any event, it makes no difference what I think, the current "rule" is no third party postings are allowed. I will respect and follow that rule unless Jim H changes it.
I'm sure its difficult to run a high quality site like CW and I'm sure many decisions must be made by Jim H each week. I know that no matter what he decides on a particular issue, he will never please everyone everytime. Therefore, he must do what he believes to be right and we should respect and follow his decision, even if we don't agree with it. I will play by the rules and I suggest you do the same.
posted 01-29-2008 05:49 PM ET (US)
Wah wah wah, poor little innocent F-----! Maybe he should buy a Wahler and drink a Wheineken.
gcl -- Just make a thread in GAM area about a beautiful Whaler you saw and ask people to contact you for more info. Sheesh -- this ain't rocket science.
posted 01-29-2008 08:04 PM ET (US)
gcl.......rather than take our resident rocket scientist's suggestion, an easier way is to just contact the third party and tell them to post directly in the MarketPlace. This keeps you "out of the loop" and gets more exposure to CW.
posted 01-29-2008 09:00 PM ET (US)
It is exactly these types of back and forth derogatory personal attacks and comments that this thread has degraded into that caused Jim to have to weigh in and lay down the law (or reinforce the existing rules) for this area of the site.
I don't think it was so much the second-party links as it was the disgraceful BS that flowed forth when members hi-jack a thread in order to take personal disagreements to such a low at the gutter level that they play handball against the curb.
Jim - your rules have been clearly stated and all agree to abide. Sorry you had take time out to do it in the first place. I can't imagine how much you seethed and how long you tried to stay above the fray and hope it would stop before you finally decided that you had to act and take control back.
So - okay - we all agree - Jim makes the rules and we agree to abide by Jim's rules - let's stop the personal attacks that have ABSOLUTELY Nothing to do with anything about the thread to begin with. Let alone nothing to do with Whalers or the advancement of boating knowledge and comraderie. We all claim to be adults - let's act it.
End the BS.
posted 01-29-2008 09:33 PM ET (US)
posted 01-29-2008 09:57 PM ET (US)
Let us see who amongst you are the more intelligent, upstanding members of the site. I have a small challenge. Go on posting content related links. If one throws a low blow or makes an inappropriate comment or behaves unethically, let know-one return with the same.
Planned retaliation of the ignorant is even more vile than ignorance itself.
It will soon become clear who are the upstanding and who are the troubled, who are the mice and who are the men.
After all, I think this is the core of the current problem.
I hope everyone follows closely what others say from this point on.
posted 01-29-2008 10:47 PM ET (US)
posted 01-30-2008 09:30 AM ET (US)
As a postscript:
I called attention to the succes story of the Nauset sale as an example of a situation where a third-party listing helped several folks, (except the low-ballers). If the decision maker of this web site feels that, overall, it is best to exclude third-party listings, I can accept that. There is extreme value attached to the existance of this website and I appreciate the fact that it is available. I have no problem with following the rules of this website, both to their letter and intent. So, if a similar situation, as the one I described above, arises in the future I would not run around the rule by posting the information in GAM, emailing members individually, contacting sellers and pointing them to this site, or any other round-about means to accomplish conveying the information. In other words, I would not bend the rule: I would abide by the rule and simply not bother.
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