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Author Topic:   Installation of rear seat in an Outrage

JoeO posted 06-16-2000 02:53 PM ET (US)
I recently purchased a '93 Outrage. The previous owner had removed the stainless plates which anchor the rear seat to the deck, and filled the holes with epoxy. I would like to reinstall the plates. What is the best way to attach these? This is my first post to the forum. I have been monitoring the talk for a while. You are a wealth of info. and I would appreciate your input. Thanks.
DIVE 1 posted 07-12-2000 09:32 PM ET (US)
WHAT SIZE IS YOUR OUTRAGE? OUR 22' RAIDER HAS THE REAR SEAT BASE MOUNTED WITH #12 x 2 1/2" STAINLESS STEEL FLAT HEAD SCREWS. THE SCREW MUST PENETRATE THROUGH THE FLOORBOARD AND INTO THE STRINGERS, BE SURE TO USE SEALANT ON ALL SCREWS(we use 3M 101).
JoeO posted 07-13-2000 11:15 AM ET (US)
Dive1,
It is a 21' Outrage. I have installed the stainless plates since my initial post. I used #14 by 2" stainless wood screws. I drilled out the west system that the previous owner had used to fill the holes, put marine sealant in the hole and screwed the plates down. My biggest concern is that each plate had 3 pairs of screws, one at each end and one in the middle of the plate (the plate is about 14" long by maybe 1.5" wide). Only the outboard hole of each set penetrated the deck into the stringer, the inboard hole of each set simply went through the deck. The position of the plates was constrained by the spacing of the bench seat supports, and obviously Whaler had initially installed the seat under these conditions, so.... I hope it holds over time.
Arch Autenreith posted 07-13-2000 12:15 PM ET (US)
JoeO
See "Extremely strong screw installation" in this section around 5/1/00. I think Don's method(s) are about the best. I have since used his recommendations.
Regards, Arch
JoeO posted 07-13-2000 01:20 PM ET (US)
Arch,
Thanks for the info, I read the old postings. My situation may allow for me to use the toggle bolts for the 6 screws that simply penetrate the deck (the other 6 which go into the stringers should be plenty strong). Fortunately, I have access to the area under the deck via the bilge access cutouts (one long rectangular one and one 8" circular). I can see the 6 screws "hanging out" from the underside of the deck. This offseason I'll replace them with the toggles. I have never seen stainless toggles (can't say I have ever looked!). We have a West Marine in town, I'll go check them out. Joe
lhg posted 07-13-2000 03:14 PM ET (US)
First of all, there are no stringers in Whalers that I am aware of, unless hull construction techniques were change by Reebock, which I doubt. Your 1993 Outrage 21 has the standard Whaler gas tank cover, which contains 3/4" marine plywood under the glass non-skid, and this is designed for wood screws that don't penetrate the deck by more than 1". Toggle bolts aren't necessary.
Your re-installation of the original plates should be fine. This removeable stern seat, incidentally, is a completely different installation & design from the earlier classic tan Outrage models. It is still being used in the 2000 yr models.
Arch Autenreith posted 07-13-2000 03:29 PM ET (US)
JoeO
I'm suggesting NOT to use the Togglers. I did use them in a couple applications until I read Don's suggestion of spinning out the foam underneath and filling with West System epoxy and either installing them as posts or drilling and tapping. Actually, I did it just a little different. I used the 406 thickener (I'm not sure that's necessary) and after the epoxy started to harden I just screwed the ss screws in. Then I just moved them a little every 1/2 hour or so so they wouldn't adhear to the epoxy. Worked perfectly.
dfmcintyre posted 07-14-2000 07:15 AM ET (US)
Joe -
I had assumed (I know, never....) that you didn't have a model that gave you access to the bottom of the floor.
In a situation where you _do) have access, the best way to anchor would be to fabricate a backing plate, out of 1/4 to 3/8" s/s or aluminimum (go with a s/s plate if your using it in salt water often), slightly larger then the top plate. This way you spread the stress over the area of the plate, rather then just the toggles or washers and nuts.
Be sure to West the holes that go through the wood, and let them dry. And use a good bedding compound when doing the final mounting. A technique I learned from an old boat restorer is the liberal use of bedding compound, allowing it to squirt up into the screw hole while turning the screw down. It minimized water from even entering via the area between the screw and the mounting plate.
Best - Don
JoeO posted 07-14-2000 11:23 AM ET (US)
ihg, You are correct about the stringers, I misspoke. There are however extra "supports" under the deck onto which the fuel tank cover sits and is attached. The outboard screws of the seat plates pentrate into this support area (it looks like glassed over wood?)
Don, your idea of backing plates for the screws which simply penetrate the deck is a good one, I will have to see if I have enough room to get my arm in the bilge and over to the area involved, it will be pretty tight!
dfmcintyre posted 07-14-2000 06:32 PM ET (US)
Joe -
A couple of thoughts if the area is too "thin".
This is one of the situations where introducing a young'in into the world of boat maintence is great. "Ok, Dad, you want me to stick my arm WHERE? and hold WHAT?"
Another thought would be to tack weld the nuts onto the bottom of the plate, so that you would just have to position one item (the plate) under the floor thread the screws into the plate, and tighten down sequentially. Does this explanation make sense?
Third thought would be a slightly thicker plate, and tap the holes to accept the bolts or machine screws (whatever your using... probably phillips machine screws).
Best - Don
triblet posted 07-14-2000 06:41 PM ET (US)
SS is difficult to machine. I'd either go
with tack welding, or there are SS "popnuts"
that work like a big pop rivet, except the part
that stays behind has female threads.
However, neither of these approaches would
have a plastic locking ring to keep the bolts
from loosening.
Chuck Tribolet
Arch Autenreith posted 07-14-2000 08:13 PM ET (US)
JoeO
One last thought...I didn't read one of your postings carefully and I now realize you have access to the underside. I that case, maybe the "toggler" method is the ticket. I haven't noticed them in the store but they are in the catalog for sure. They are ss and called "Toggler". And since it is only the female you can chose whatever head you need in addition to sizes. Check it out. But I do see many other options posted here.
JoeO posted 07-18-2000 11:12 AM ET (US)
Thanks everyone for your ideas.
Right now I have the plates screwed down with the ss wood screws the "whaler" way (as best as I can tell the sames way Whaler had originally installed them). If I sense that they are starting to loosen before the off season, I'll modify the attachement using one of the ideas we have been discussing. Otherwise, I am going to spend as much time fishing and taking the kids out tubing, kneeboarding and skiing as I can!!! This fall, I will reevaluate and modify. I'll let you know how it goes. By the way, I have only had the bench seat in for one trip to see the tall ships. Most of the time it takes up too much space.
One side note that may be of interest to the forum. Many years ago, I found out that the "best" material to prevent bolts from siezing in the marine environment is to put a little food grade teflon grease on the bolt (it is widely used on food manufacturing machinery). I use this on all machine screws, bolts etc that I want to be able to easily remove in the future. The grease is not water soluble, is white in color and used prudently does not make a mess at all, that is, it stays put and does not smear all over the place (unlike other anti sieze compounds). This stuff works great and is especially usefull for dissimialr metals (when you put a SS bolt into aluminum for example). It really reduces electrochemical corrosion.
Joe

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Author	Topic: Installation of rear seat in an Outrage
JoeO	posted 06-16-2000 02:53 PM ET (US) I recently purchased a '93 Outrage. The previous owner had removed the stainless plates which anchor the rear seat to the deck, and filled the holes with epoxy. I would like to reinstall the plates. What is the best way to attach these? This is my first post to the forum. I have been monitoring the talk for a while. You are a wealth of info. and I would appreciate your input. Thanks.
DIVE 1	posted 07-12-2000 09:32 PM ET (US) WHAT SIZE IS YOUR OUTRAGE? OUR 22' RAIDER HAS THE REAR SEAT BASE MOUNTED WITH #12 x 2 1/2" STAINLESS STEEL FLAT HEAD SCREWS. THE SCREW MUST PENETRATE THROUGH THE FLOORBOARD AND INTO THE STRINGERS, BE SURE TO USE SEALANT ON ALL SCREWS(we use 3M 101).
JoeO	posted 07-13-2000 11:15 AM ET (US) Dive1, It is a 21' Outrage. I have installed the stainless plates since my initial post. I used #14 by 2" stainless wood screws. I drilled out the west system that the previous owner had used to fill the holes, put marine sealant in the hole and screwed the plates down. My biggest concern is that each plate had 3 pairs of screws, one at each end and one in the middle of the plate (the plate is about 14" long by maybe 1.5" wide). Only the outboard hole of each set penetrated the deck into the stringer, the inboard hole of each set simply went through the deck. The position of the plates was constrained by the spacing of the bench seat supports, and obviously Whaler had initially installed the seat under these conditions, so.... I hope it holds over time.
Arch Autenreith	posted 07-13-2000 12:15 PM ET (US) JoeO See "Extremely strong screw installation" in this section around 5/1/00. I think Don's method(s) are about the best. I have since used his recommendations. Regards, Arch
JoeO	posted 07-13-2000 01:20 PM ET (US) Arch, Thanks for the info, I read the old postings. My situation may allow for me to use the toggle bolts for the 6 screws that simply penetrate the deck (the other 6 which go into the stringers should be plenty strong). Fortunately, I have access to the area under the deck via the bilge access cutouts (one long rectangular one and one 8" circular). I can see the 6 screws "hanging out" from the underside of the deck. This offseason I'll replace them with the toggles. I have never seen stainless toggles (can't say I have ever looked!). We have a West Marine in town, I'll go check them out. Joe
lhg	posted 07-13-2000 03:14 PM ET (US) First of all, there are no stringers in Whalers that I am aware of, unless hull construction techniques were change by Reebock, which I doubt. Your 1993 Outrage 21 has the standard Whaler gas tank cover, which contains 3/4" marine plywood under the glass non-skid, and this is designed for wood screws that don't penetrate the deck by more than 1". Toggle bolts aren't necessary. Your re-installation of the original plates should be fine. This removeable stern seat, incidentally, is a completely different installation & design from the earlier classic tan Outrage models. It is still being used in the 2000 yr models.
Arch Autenreith	posted 07-13-2000 03:29 PM ET (US) JoeO I'm suggesting NOT to use the Togglers. I did use them in a couple applications until I read Don's suggestion of spinning out the foam underneath and filling with West System epoxy and either installing them as posts or drilling and tapping. Actually, I did it just a little different. I used the 406 thickener (I'm not sure that's necessary) and after the epoxy started to harden I just screwed the ss screws in. Then I just moved them a little every 1/2 hour or so so they wouldn't adhear to the epoxy. Worked perfectly.
dfmcintyre	posted 07-14-2000 07:15 AM ET (US) Joe - I had assumed (I know, never....) that you didn't have a model that gave you access to the bottom of the floor. In a situation where you _do) have access, the best way to anchor would be to fabricate a backing plate, out of 1/4 to 3/8" s/s or aluminimum (go with a s/s plate if your using it in salt water often), slightly larger then the top plate. This way you spread the stress over the area of the plate, rather then just the toggles or washers and nuts. Be sure to West the holes that go through the wood, and let them dry. And use a good bedding compound when doing the final mounting. A technique I learned from an old boat restorer is the liberal use of bedding compound, allowing it to squirt up into the screw hole while turning the screw down. It minimized water from even entering via the area between the screw and the mounting plate. Best - Don
JoeO	posted 07-14-2000 11:23 AM ET (US) ihg, You are correct about the stringers, I misspoke. There are however extra "supports" under the deck onto which the fuel tank cover sits and is attached. The outboard screws of the seat plates pentrate into this support area (it looks like glassed over wood?) Don, your idea of backing plates for the screws which simply penetrate the deck is a good one, I will have to see if I have enough room to get my arm in the bilge and over to the area involved, it will be pretty tight!
dfmcintyre	posted 07-14-2000 06:32 PM ET (US) Joe - A couple of thoughts if the area is too "thin". This is one of the situations where introducing a young'in into the world of boat maintence is great. "Ok, Dad, you want me to stick my arm WHERE? and hold WHAT?" Another thought would be to tack weld the nuts onto the bottom of the plate, so that you would just have to position one item (the plate) under the floor thread the screws into the plate, and tighten down sequentially. Does this explanation make sense? Third thought would be a slightly thicker plate, and tap the holes to accept the bolts or machine screws (whatever your using... probably phillips machine screws). Best - Don
triblet	posted 07-14-2000 06:41 PM ET (US) SS is difficult to machine. I'd either go with tack welding, or there are SS "popnuts" that work like a big pop rivet, except the part that stays behind has female threads. However, neither of these approaches would have a plastic locking ring to keep the bolts from loosening. Chuck Tribolet
Arch Autenreith	posted 07-14-2000 08:13 PM ET (US) JoeO One last thought...I didn't read one of your postings carefully and I now realize you have access to the underside. I that case, maybe the "toggler" method is the ticket. I haven't noticed them in the store but they are in the catalog for sure. They are ss and called "Toggler". And since it is only the female you can chose whatever head you need in addition to sizes. Check it out. But I do see many other options posted here.
JoeO	posted 07-18-2000 11:12 AM ET (US) Thanks everyone for your ideas. Right now I have the plates screwed down with the ss wood screws the "whaler" way (as best as I can tell the sames way Whaler had originally installed them). If I sense that they are starting to loosen before the off season, I'll modify the attachement using one of the ideas we have been discussing. Otherwise, I am going to spend as much time fishing and taking the kids out tubing, kneeboarding and skiing as I can!!! This fall, I will reevaluate and modify. I'll let you know how it goes. By the way, I have only had the bench seat in for one trip to see the tall ships. Most of the time it takes up too much space. One side note that may be of interest to the forum. Many years ago, I found out that the "best" material to prevent bolts from siezing in the marine environment is to put a little food grade teflon grease on the bolt (it is widely used on food manufacturing machinery). I use this on all machine screws, bolts etc that I want to be able to easily remove in the future. The grease is not water soluble, is white in color and used prudently does not make a mess at all, that is, it stays put and does not smear all over the place (unlike other anti sieze compounds). This stuff works great and is especially usefull for dissimialr metals (when you put a SS bolt into aluminum for example). It really reduces electrochemical corrosion. Joe