Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
posted 07-31-2001 01:53 PM ET (US)
Hello whaler fans,I need your feedback. I've already enjoyed the new 2yr search option in searching past threads and I know the talent is out there. I'm in the process of restoring a 84' 22'Guardian DOD surplus. I plan on changing it to the Outrage look. With teak rails and the s/s everywhere.
Yes, unfortunatly I'm planing on spending most of this season doing it right. With the hull already stipped out, a new Fl. Marine tank foamed in , 4" added to console and Birdsall leaning post waiting to be put on.
You could say I'm in for the long hall.
The problem is or should I say the current problem is the guy who started this project, before I got it. Did a really poor prep job before he painted it with a Ben More epoxy mastic and he must have used a wagner sprayer, because major orange peel and sags abound. Now I just finished sanding and scraping it all off. The junk came off in sheets with a chisel in hand. The paint it self was tough as nails where the prep work was done, but big areas of where they must have not sanded. Now I'm at the point where I'm starting the fairing and filling with west systems. I need to think about how far do I take it down ie: what grit ? 90/120/150, what primer ? , primer first before fairing ? Do I go with Awlgrip, Sterling ?? I plan on getting somone to spray it, but My hang up is the prep work and I'm just looking for some feedback or ideas on this rig.
posted 07-31-2001 06:33 PM ET (US)
John, I am doing the same thing with my Newport. If you are going to have someone spray the paint, you may want them to do the pre-paint prep as well. I am doing all of the hardware removal etc, but I am letting the boatyard doo all the fairing, filling and sanding. They quoted me $4500.00 to spray it with the desert tan Awlgrip, and the price even includes removal of the existing bottom paint.
I have seen boats painted with both Awlgrip and Sterling, and my personal preferance was the Awlgrip. Of course the final product is only as good as the prep, and the painter.
posted 07-31-2001 10:56 PM ET (US)
First talk to the individual that will spray the boat and get their input on your prep work. I use AWLGRIP with great results. Fair all spots, sand to 320 and apply AWLGRIP primer(a short nap or foam roller works fine). Sand with 400 and touch up all pinholes and blemishes. Apply another coat of primer and sand with 400. Double check for pinholes and blemishes. Touch-up as necessary. Apply AWLGRIP and enjoy your new finish.
posted 08-01-2001 08:49 AM ET (US)
Holy cow! $4500 for a 17' boiat and YOu are doing the dismantling? I had my 24" Baja done in red and was only $1500 with awlgrip 2000. This is no show car here and can't take more than $500 in paint so $4k in labor. Get another opinion, fast. Just my 2 cents. The bottom job is only a couple few hundred.
posted 08-01-2001 10:32 AM ET (US)
I am in the process of awl gripping my 13 whaler (1962). It took a month and a half to strip the 4 coats of paint off what was left of the gelcoat and many fiberglass patches. I have gotten great results so far brushing the awlgripp. its about the 5th time I have worked with the product and i think that if you take your time, you could do it yourself in a weekend or two. It really looks almost as good as if it were sprayed. I used awlquick primer which has a tendancy to fill in the cracks and crazing in the gelcoat better than the 545. I am using the 545 primer to prime the outside of the hull because it has better adhesion characteristics than the awlquick, and it can be used below the water line as a barier coat. You should consider doing it yourself if you have a little extra time. Just my opinion
posted 08-01-2001 10:51 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the advise but, this may sound like a dumb ? do you usally awlgrip the whole hull, exterior/interior as well as below the waterline ? I was thinking of outside above WL and then topside paint for interior ? If so I got plenty more stripping to do. #@^#$ !!
posted 08-01-2001 11:26 AM ET (US)
Mine is of the blue vintage and i am painting the boat from the waterline up with cloud white awlgrip and painting the inside sky blue. It really depends on how bad the finish is. You can paint from under the rub rail up and into the interior, or down to the waterline or both. It really depends on how far you want to go with the paint job.
posted 08-01-2001 12:02 PM ET (US)
If going to bottom pain then do from waterline up. Better yet,strip it down to glass on the sides and under a bit,then awlgrip, then repaint waterline. Strip back of transom too. You do not want the a paint line on a flat surface like that. If the sides buff out, just do interior. Most go to paint when there are too many holes an patch jobs, easier and nicer than a frankenstein look.
posted 08-01-2001 02:43 PM ET (US)
If you're going to have it professionally sprayed, I'd go with Awlgrip. But I've had fantastic results using Sterling by rolling & then tipping with a brush...and the Sterling is MUCH easier to use than competing brands such as Interlux. Buster's post above is the only time I've heard of someone brushing Awlgrip, I thought their instructions said not to do this. The results we got with roll & brush Sterling were every bit as good as a professional spray job.
In any case the prep work is the most important part of a polyurethane paint job and will make more of a difference than the brand of paint. I would get the Sterling prep instructions & follow them to the letter, including all the overpriced solvents they want you to use. The key to the sanding is getting a perfectly smooth surface, as any imperfections will be exaggerated, not hidden, by the final coat. I've used the 2 part primers for very badly deteriorated surfaces, but I believe an extra coat of 2 part paint makes as good a primer as anything. 3 or 4 coats look alot better than 2.
As to using 2 part paints below the waterline...if you keep the boat on a trailer & only have it in the water for a day or two, you can paint the entire hull. But if topsides paints are kept in water for more than a few days, they'll start to blister as water gets behind the paint. These blisters will dry out eventually but the adhesion to the hull will be compromised & the paint job won't last. If you plan to leave the boat in water for weeks, don't use topsides paints below the waterline.
posted 08-01-2001 03:02 PM ET (US)
Very good points John. I have heard of brushing awlgrip. Did it to my friends POS flats boat and it looked pretty darn good.
posted 08-02-2001 02:47 PM ET (US)
Bigshot: Your spray labor charges have traditionally been much lower in Florida where supply and warmer temps last longer. Although I have a lot of experience working with Awlgrip, it is a real pain to work with and to do an entire hull, it would be best to have a shop where you can safely and cleanly shoot the boat. I do not have that space. Hence, I looked into having a professional with a booth do it. $4500 is not much out of line for inside and outside of hull -- at least not here in the midwest.
Folks that are thinking of shooting awl-grip should really consider where they are going to do it. This is very serious stuff. Not only is Awl-grip liquid gold in terms of cost, the chemicals in there contain a variety of potent carcinogens. Not only should you have a respirator, but also a full Tyvek suit to protect skin absorption of solvent. Work a week with this stuff in a closed environment without adequate safety protection and I bet you could visibly watch your liver enzymes increase on a daily basis as it washes through.
The solvent vapor seems to find any low crack -- say, between a garage floor and the sill plate of the house. So, this is not a product to be shooting in the garage as vapors will likely penetrate the house if you don't have an adequate spray booth set up. I am starting to get long winded here, but... be careful.
posted 08-02-2001 03:13 PM ET (US)
Bob, ventilation is key with any solvents, good point!
posted 08-02-2001 03:29 PM ET (US)
Chesapeake is right Awlgrip should be professionally sprayed --- hey someone got good results with a roller --- cool --- usually not the case. The safety factor as Chess mentioned is super important with any of these "paints"! You want to be around to enjoy your fruits of labor I would think.
Tobes get direct input from the shop you intend to use for the spray job, the level and type of prep they need. They are the ones that the input should come from including primer type and application coats. They have to work with what you provide!
Your spending a lot to bring this girl back, fanstatic since a new one would cost you possibly 3x to 4x to what you'll spend in first class refinishing and refitting.
If your using bottom paint, the hull should have at least 3 to 4 coats of poly barrier coating applied before the bottom paint this could also be the Awlgrip system or Interlux.
One more thought when it's whole hull time and the hull has been bastardized as Tobes described, it comes down to sand or media blasting by a professional operation! This will leave it at about an 80 grit level so you can start sanding and prepping. Frankly will be more uniformed than you'll very get scraping, sanding or with paste removers and will expose all areas which need filling and fairing. For a 22 inside and out maybe 2 days and it's done ready for you to proceed. Tom
posted 08-02-2001 07:25 PM ET (US)
Thanks to all for your input. This project seams to have taken on a life of it's own. I talked to a guy who can do it for about $100 a foot, but he said he'll need to look at it next week. He wants to look at how much and what kind of prep. work needs to get done. Bottom line it's $55 an hr. plus materials ie: paint / fairing compound / primer, all Awlgrip. So we'll see next week, till then I'll just keep sanding. I'm at 80 right now. @#$%!
posted 08-03-2001 03:46 PM ET (US)
I would agree with others that a spray job is best left to professionals unless you have the proper equipment & a spray booth. But a number of paint brands have 2 part polyurethane formulations designed to be rolled & tipped including Sterling, Interlux, Kop Coat & others, and you really can get excellent results. You still need a good respirator, full clothing coverage & gloves, but they're not as hazardous to deal with as spraying. I've done 3 small boats in an air conditioned garage & another at a do-it-yourself yard, and the hardest part is the sanding & prep that you're already doing.
If you can pay for a professional spray job, go for it, but the roll & brush polyurethanes are another option for you to consider.
posted 08-03-2001 05:12 PM ET (US)
i have done all the prep work on a 16-7 that my son and I are restoring. Local marine painting firm will spray it for $20 per hour spraying time. We are using Interthane Plus two-part epoxy @ $50 per quart. One quart will spray one coat. We will spray one coat per day for five days (don't have to sand between coats if coats are applied within 48 hour of each other) Will prime the inside first, flip the boat over, then prime and paint the outside with five coats. Let sit for ten days to fully cure (so carpeted bunks will not mar uncured finish) then flip over and finish interior. It's a piece of cake. This is my third restoration job and I think I have the strokes down pretty well. Good luck, JIM
posted 08-06-2001 10:54 AM ET (US)
I would bet that the other 2-part products on the market are very good, although I cannot speak from experience.
I can tell you that virtually all of the custom off-shore boatbuilders do not gelcoat their hulls (as would a branded builder for boats like the Bertram, Hatteras, etc.). They build the hulls up with layers of glass sanswhiched around a space-aged material that is aluminum honeycomb sandwhiced between layers of fiberglass glass. This is stronger and about half the weight of a usual full fiberglass build-up. But, I digress.
The point is that most of these boats are Awl-grip painted. Including the undersides. The builders are confident that this stuff is tough enough to withstand the friction of a ten ton boat against lift bunks.
Similarly, commercial airlines paint with Awl-grip. I would guess that is a fairly good testament to the durability of Awl-grip. Like any paint, the prep is the key.
And I only wish someone would shoot paint for $20 / hour here.
posted 08-06-2001 11:04 AM ET (US)
I believe most planes are painted with Imron, which has superior duribility to Awl-Grip, but is a much duller paint, and more expensive.
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