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Author Topic:   massive hull repair to be done
broken boat posted 08-26-2001 12:04 AM ET (US)   Profile for broken boat   Send Email to broken boat  
I just got a outrage 21-22 ... I'm not sure how long because of massive front end damage. There is about 4 feet of boat missing from the nose. I am not sure what year it is or what happened to it. It came from a goverment auction and looks like it was used in navy operations.
Ive posted pictures http://www.geocities.com/brianboltz/boat.htm
Where can i find help.. hull plans .. mold forms.. glassing, advice?

And does any one know if dual 50hp 4strokes can power this baby or do they need bigger motors.

lhg posted 08-26-2001 12:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
The boat looks like the remains of a 22' Guardian/Raider. I hate to tell you this, but I would say that it is a total loss and cannot be cost effectively restored. Hull structural integrity is probably gone. You would be throwing good money after bad to try save that hull. I'm amazed that the Navy had the nerve to auction it off!

DIVE 1, you're the resident expert in rebuilding Whalers. What do you think?

lhg posted 08-26-2001 12:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I only posted one reply here. Software must be duplicating things again.
kingfish posted 08-26-2001 01:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for kingfish  Send Email to kingfish     
Good Grief! It looks like it ran into a mine!

I'm with LHG about the degree of damage - it's pretty massive. If you are able to find that you (or anybody)*can* put this back together, and find you have the will, money, time and stamina to do it, I think you will have performed a feat beyond anything done by anyone around here, with the possible exception of DIVE 1, as Larry suggested.

I think there is no question though, that money will have to be not at issue.

Keep us posted-

kingfish

DIVE 1 posted 08-26-2001 06:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for DIVE 1    
Broken Boat,
I hate to say it but I would not even attempt to repair the hull. There is too much of the bow missing to graft a new section to the hull. With the force that it took to break the bow off, I would say that the fiberglass is shattered in most of the hull. Your best bet would be to strip off the hatch covers, cleats, and all of the aluminum parts. Sell the parts or keep them for a better hull and scrap the fiberglass.
Jim
bdb posted 08-26-2001 07:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for bdb  Send Email to bdb     
I notice from the photos that its got a "Keelguard" on it.

Those things must not work.

HH

triblet posted 08-26-2001 09:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for triblet  Send Email to triblet     
bdb, LaughOfTheDay award to you. ;-)

Chuck

Kelly posted 08-26-2001 09:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Kelly  Send Email to Kelly     
The way I read your post is that you already have the boat. If that is the case, I don't think the boat can reasonably be refabricated into a boat that will take the abuse of a sound Outrage, but I don't know if I would completly abandon the hull without a little investigation if you have the time and inclination.

First, I think I would start working my way back from the damage little by little to see if I could find the extent of the damage.

Second, I would remove that damaged part and evaluate what I have left.

Third, I would decide if there was some sort of front that could be reconstructed that would meet a need for me, forget about resale or restoration. Don't laugh, but I might think of a hinged front that drops down, kind of a beach landing craft for beach excursions or taking a few kayaks out to a remote area. You might even check with Whaler to see if they have ever modified the front of the boat for special needs. Who knows.

Fourth, I would always keep the boat under powered.

Just my crazy thoughts. If you already have the boat, why not experiment.

Kelly

broken boat posted 08-27-2001 12:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for broken boat  Send Email to broken boat     
Thanks for the quick response. We got the boat and are pretty intent on making it seaworthy. If anyone is interested in the endeavor, I can post whatever progress we make in identifying the extent of damage and repairing the boat. If anyone would like to post their ideas on how one would reform the section, or taking Kelly’s suggestion, reconstruct a new front, I would appreciate it.
We are going to begin stripping the damaged areas this week. I am not completely sure of how to identify damaged glass and foam besides the obvious exposed regions and smashed foam. So if someone could lend some experience or knowledge that too would be greatly appreciated.
DIVE 1, could you elaborate on shattered glass, is it identifiable and repairable, and does it compromise boat strength significantly?

I found a website with some guy’s boat repairs. Near the bottom of the page there is a Before picture of a whaler with back right section broken off and the After shot of the repair. May be in a month or two I might have a pict like that, or somewhat like that.
http://members.aol.com/lvsaenger/Ecomple.html

Aloha Broken Boat
Again Thank for your responses and any new ones.

LarrySherman posted 08-27-2001 09:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for LarrySherman  Send Email to LarrySherman     
Huge project, but if you are intent on it, so be it.

shattered glass is glass in which the layers of laminate have seperated. The best way to determime is with a core sample. I'd use a 1 inh hole saw. Take a few samples, from fore to aft, when you find good glass, go a foot farther and cut the boat at that point.

To repair it, if you want it to look like a whaler, you need to make a mould of the bow of a good one. Then build the bow outer skin in the mould, glass it to the remaing portion of the hull. For the inner hull, I'm not sure what the best approach is.

And if you did all the above, it would proably take you a year of man hours, and several thousand doller of materials. The result would be worth nothing, and proably never be quite right od seaworthy.

You should really reconsider.

Wild Turkey posted 08-27-2001 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
It don't know what the boat hit...... but I'm glad I wasn't on it when it did!!!!

I honestly don't know if anybody could have survived an impact like that.

Hang it up.... that Outrage/CPD is toast!!

Chris

lhg posted 08-27-2001 01:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
It looks like the boat was used for bombing practice. I'm not kidding, the Navy does use old Whalers for various types of target practice!
Bigshot posted 08-27-2001 01:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I hope you got that cheap because there is not much left to salvage. You can see the scrapes on the starboard side so I assume it had a minor:) collision. Gov does use them for target prctice but I think that was a fatal crash. I would cut my losses unless you can get a mold or are gonna use for commercial use and do not care of looks. Good Luck!
DIVE 1 posted 08-27-2001 11:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for DIVE 1    
Broken Boat,
Well it sounds like you are intent to repair the hull so here is my plan of attack.

1. Go to www.fibreglast.com and get all of the information available on making molds, fiberglass work and foaming.
2. Tip the stern of the boat up and let it set out in the sun for one month to hopefully eliminate as much moisture as possible from the existing foam. Chip into the existing foam until you get to good clean foam.
3. Flip the hull upside down on a flat surface with plastic sheeting underneath the bow area. Ensure the hull will be protected from the weather for the entire refurbishing process.
4. Practice making a small(3'x3') mold on a portion of the hull that is not damaged-follow instructions from Fibreglast. The mold does not have to be perfect-you are more interested in obtaining the original hull shape.
5. Find an identical hull owned by someone that is willing to let you make a mold of the outer bow skin. It may take several smaller molds to get the entire bow section. Do not worry about the inner skin at this time but be nice to the owners boat so that you can make the inner skin mold at a later date.
6. Take your mold home and make your bow skin using no less than 4 layers of biaxial matting with vinylester resin. Consult Fibreglast and use their resin. It is very thin and wets out better than any other manufacturer that I have found. Keep in mind that BW uses foam to support the fiberglass structurally. You will not have this luxury because you will not be able to duplicate their foaming process. The fiberglass will have to be stronger than BW uses to support itself.
7. Grind the rough edge of the hull back until you get into solid material. Bevel grind the surface of the original hull back about 3' from the rough edge.
8. Take your time and fit the new bow section. Cut and grind as needed for a good fit-it does not need to be perfect. The new piece should overlap the existing hull by about 8"-12". Randomly drill holes through both skins for the temporary installation of 100% aluminum pop rivets.
9. Time to get your friends involved-no beer-you need fast dependable helpers. This is a critical part of your rebuild and the cooler the air temperature the better. You need to prepare a drill with extra bits for extra pop rivets. 2 rivet guns and plenty of rivets, vinylester resin, hardener, cheap paint rollers, disposable paint brushes, and latex gloves. Cut 1 layer of biaxial fabric to fit between the old and new skin overlap. Time to hump-wet out the matting with the roller as it lays on the original hull(use too much resin), roll a coat of resin on the new outer skin overlap. Position the skins together and start installing rivets as fast as possible. Have someone drill additional holes through skins for more rivets as needed to help squeeze the 2 skins together.
9. The next step is to take a break-that is what I need now. Chapter 2 will be tomorrow.
Jim

acseatsri posted 08-28-2001 09:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
Why not try to put together a demolition derby for boats?
Kelly posted 08-28-2001 06:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Kelly  Send Email to Kelly     
This is how I would rebuild the front of he boat.

Turn the boat over.
Remove damaged material and make a clean cut from keel to gunnel, perpendicualr to gunnel.
Seal and reinforce cut with fiberglass with new fiberglass lapping back over existing good fiber glass about 12".
Build up the front of the boat with sections of foam, about 6" thick and tie back to boat in a similar manner, fiberglassing over each section(similar to the way carolina skiff boat floors are made, but not chopped)and overlapping onto the previous fiberglass. Use a few profiles taken from the front of a boat like yours(except not damaged) to control the shape. I would suggest a few front to back, a few side to side, and a few interior. This approach is less likely to make you unpopular with the boat owner. You could also just creat your own shape based on how easy or hard you want to make the work or some other need.
When the shape is established, add marine plywood in locations where needed for additional reinforcement and attaching cleats and rails, and fully glass this wood in place. Oh yea, add a new bow eye with additional reinforcing in that area. Then fiberglass over the entire repaired area with as many layers as necessary to gain strength and create an acceptable finish. I think this would work and could be done. I doubt that the finish would be perfect, but I think that you could achieve a suitable level of structural integrity. A boat designer would probably be able to provide some guidance. Kelly

george nagy posted 08-28-2001 07:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
A while back ther was a guy who had taken a pre smirk 17' and grafted a newer front end. it looked good. I think it was 6 months ago I don't have time to search back, but maybe that person will see this post and reply. If he did that type of grafting it may be possible. Good luck. Maybe whaler commercial division would be of some help as they still offer this model. Heck is your hull under ten years old maybe you could get it fixed under warranty. Imagine that!
Toad2001 posted 08-28-2001 09:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for Toad2001  Send Email to Toad2001     
If it has "freshwater only history", I may know of a potential buyer.

:-)

DIVE 1 posted 08-28-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for DIVE 1    
Broken Boat,
On to Chapter 2:

1. Drill out all pop rivets.
2. Grind the overlap area enough to rough it up.
3. Lay 2 layers of biaxial matting from the back of the bevel you ground into the original hull to about 1'-2' forward of the overlapped seam.
4. Use a piece of straight grained wood(3'x1"x1/16" thick) to check the outside hull for high and low spots. Bow the wood over the hull and mark all of the excessively high spots. Grind the excessively high spots while periodically checking with the wooden batton to remove all excessively high spots. Lay the batton on the hull from different directions to help true the hull. Now start cutting matting to the proper shape and size to build up the low spots. Some low areas may require more than one layer of matting.
5. Once all of the fiberglass has hardened, recheck with batton and only grind or fill spots that exceed 1/4".
6. Get your strong friends together and carefully flip the hull right side up. Lay the keel flat on the floor and level the boat up side to side by putting blocking under the chines on the original part of the hull. Do not put any load or undo stress on the new part of the hull.
7. Chip out enough foam to expose the overlap plus 1' past the overlap on the original part of the hull. Grind the inside of the outer skin and lay 2 layers of biaxial matting to cover the overlap and go past by 1' both forward and aft of the overlap. This should give you plenty of strength for the overlap seam. Do not worry about how rough the inside of the outer hull looks because I have never heard any complaints from the foam.
8. Contact Boston Whaler with your hull numbers and request the wood diagram and the aluminum diagram. You will need these before proceeding with any more fiberglass work.
9. Wow, its break time.
Jim

Sinclair7 posted 08-30-2001 04:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sinclair7  Send Email to Sinclair7     
Hey,
Read the "Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual" by Alan H. Vaitses. Available at Amazon.com for $29.95. The picture on the front looks almost as bad as your boat. People seem to pull off some pretty amazing stuff with fiberglass. Keeping the shape of the boat seems to be the hardest part. Eliminating judgement errors would probably be easiest by molding a lrger section of an identical hull. If the mold is larger you could use the boats contours to line up the mold with your boat. Secure it well and start laying glass. Some literature could help. There are alot of chemical reactions that need to be planned for, i.e. laying a release wax, so things stick when you want them to and release when you want them to. Find put how whaler makes the boat in the first place and do your best to copy that onto the repair area.
Good Luck
CDN posted 08-30-2001 06:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for CDN  Send Email to CDN     
Saw a a hinge bow section at another boatbuilders web site at:

http://www.pelicanbayboats.com/photogly.htm

There is a lot gone in this Outrage's case, however. Maybe too much gone.

Eric posted 08-30-2001 06:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Eric  Send Email to Eric     
Looks like an impulse buy, with long term repercussions.
Maybe the naysayers will be suprised by the final product (if there is one). I have my doubts, but concede that it could be done. The biggest point to consider is this: how many hours will it take, and what do you earn per hour? It might be less hours worked to earn the money to buy a decent boat, than to repair this wreck. I would think that someone probably died in this thing, and I don't think that I would want anything to do with it. Sometimes you've got to realize that you're in over your head.
DIVE 1 posted 08-30-2001 10:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for DIVE 1    
Broken Boat,
Sorry I missed Chapter 3 last night but my scuba students did not want to get out of the pool. So here is Chapter 3.
1. Install aluminum backer for bow eye per BW diagram. Do not install the wood or aluminum in the top of the gunwale at this time.
2. Make the inner hull mold and install in the same manner as the outer hull skin. The only problem will be fiberglassing the inside of the overlap-reach in as far as possible between the inner and outer skin and do the best job possible.
3. Trim the top of the inner and outer hull to get a straight gunwale line.
4. Install expanding foam(2 part for boats not the cheap stuff in a spray can)between the inner and outer skins per the manufacturers info. Be careful and experiment with a little foam at first to get a feel for the expansion rate. Ensure that you start at the very bottom of the hull and get into all air voids. The foam will expand and fill all of the voids and the extra pressure from the foam will expand upwards. Add more foam as needed to reach the top of the gunwale. When the foam reaches the top of the gunwales and is still wet, trim off any excess foam that has expanded above the gunwales. Let the foam dry per instructions.
5. Make all wood and aluminum parts per BWs wood and aluminum diagrams. Trim foam down at gunwale(fillet knife works well)to install wood and aluminum components. Taper gring areas around wood and aluminum mounting areas. Fiberglass aluminum and wood components to inside of hull skins. Start fiberglassing top of gunwale overlapping inner and outer skin by at least 6" with biaxial matting.
6. Using the wooden batten start trueing the inner hull and top of the gunwales. Grind and add fiberglass matting as necessary. Finish interior skin by filling and feathering using 3M Marine Premium Filler, an air file, DA sander, long board, and hand sanding blocks. Your interior finish will dictate the amount of care you must take during the feathering and sanding process. If you want the original smooth gelcoat finish, you will put in a considerable amount of time to get everything perfect. An alternative(see DIVE 1) would be to do a good job of filling and fairing and then non-skid the entire interior of the hull.
7. Find your strong friends and flip the hull upside down again. Use the batten board and continue filling with fiberglass matting-chop mat or 6oz. cloth works fine for this step. Sand and feather the outer hull to get the voids down to about 1/16". Fill the last of the voids and pinholes with 3M Marine Premium Filler. Hand sand hull with longboard and hand blocks. keep rechecking hull with batten board, hand sand and fill as necessary. Spray a coat of spray can primer on the outer hull repair. This will highlight all pinholes and imperfections. Fill and feather as necessary. Final sand per instructions provided by the manufacturer of the paint or gelcoat you have selected.

I have probably missed a few details, but with all of the talent on the forum someone should be able to answer your questions. If I was to do this repair job it would probably take me 1000hrs, but I am slow and too picky. I like the outside of the hulls flawless and shiny when painted. Keep in mind that you should paint the outside of the hull with a color as close to pure white as possible. The hull will mat print after a few years and the darker the color the faster the process occurs. Your repair will be clearly visible as the printing occurs. In 10 years when you decide to sell the boat, there should be no stress cracks or visible signs of your sweat equity-this proves you did a great job. GOOD LUCK
Jim

lhg posted 08-30-2001 11:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Jim - Just curious, and to put this job in perspective. If this owner hired you to do this job, what would you have to charge him?
Seriously!

You've spent a lot of time posting this information, and it's interesting to see how you would go about something like this. It's been very informative and interesting to read. I would not have known where to start, nor could I handle it!

Thanks for the effort.

DIVE 1 posted 08-30-2001 11:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for DIVE 1    
LHG,
I would not have a clue what this job would cost-if you could find someone to perform the operation. I do not do this type of work for a living. I only take care of the fire depts fleet, my own boats(5), and help my friends. In my opinion the rebuild could only be performed cost effectively by the owner and friends. You know at 5 cents an hour it is just a labor of love for the owner and something to be proud of when finished. Sorry, I really can not answer your question
Jim
johnk posted 08-30-2001 11:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for johnk  Send Email to johnk     
I fish the Potomac River in Maryland(eventually leading into the Chesapeake Bay) and spend alot of time fishing around the NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) in Dahlgren Virginia. They have a range down river where they fire everything from 20mm guns all the way up to 16" guns. Nothing like fishing when one of those things goes off! When the range is hot, they always have 2-3 range boats insuring that unsuspecting boats don't enter the area. Sometimes they have target boats, sometimes not.

Was striper fishing the area the other day and hooked something ...big... After almost 30 minutes of playing what I thought was a HUGH striper to the boat, here's what I landed!

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=206776&a=1522711&p=53585085&Sequence=0&res=high

john

johnk posted 08-31-2001 12:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for johnk  Send Email to johnk     
Let see if this works better....

[URL]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=206776&a=1522711&p=53585085&Sequence=0&res=high{/URL]

johnk posted 08-31-2001 12:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for johnk  Send Email to johnk     
sorry....


http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=206776&a=1522711&p=53585085&Sequence=0&res=high

Sinclair7 posted 08-31-2001 01:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sinclair7  Send Email to Sinclair7     
P.S.
"Runabout Renovation, how to find and fix up an old fiberglass speedboat" by Jim Anderson is another book i bought at amazon.com. I don't know how experienced you are but i am new to this. Alot of these books seem geared for beginners like me. i have been fixing up my 13 and the advise i recieved at the forum has been great. This boat seems like a challange and everyone likes an under-dog. I really Hope you can pull this one off. I did some gelcoat work on my 13 while it was up side down and found it a little disorienting. When i flipped the boat over the lines were easier to match. Mind plays tricks on ya. Something to think about.
Wild Turkey posted 08-31-2001 11:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
johnk....

I love it!!!!

Chris

broken boat posted 08-31-2001 10:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for broken boat  Send Email to broken boat     
Thanks for all the input.
I have recuted a small group of workers and we will find out what happens.
DIVE 1 many thanks for the detailed process. Same to LarrySherman and kelly. You guy all rock.

johnk, Send it out.. it might fit!

Thanks Again

LarrySherman posted 08-31-2001 10:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for LarrySherman  Send Email to LarrySherman     
Good luck my man! and document the hell out of this. I was thinking "What if we got together and wrote a book on Classic Whaler Restoration." It would obviosly have information generic to any boat, but also provide that special knowledge you need to own, use, understand and maintain a Whaler.

It would sell pretty well I'd bet. Hell, we'll get International Marine to be our publisher. And your restoration will about 6 chapters of it!

I bet if you video taped the work, you could edit out a serious series in fibreglass boat repair. Say 8 parts @ $14/tape.

Might just recoup the money that Rader is going to cost you! Believe me, I know. Am there, doing that (although not at your level of course).

Anyway, GOOD LUCK!

And keep us posted!

johnk posted 09-01-2001 09:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for johnk  Send Email to johnk     
Broken Boat,

On a more serious note, you might want to touch base with as many salvage yards as possible, and dealers who specialize in insurance claims. There might just be a damaged boat sitting in the back somewhere with weeds growing up around it that has a front clip you could somehow use.


good luck

john

hardensheetmetal posted 09-05-2001 05:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for hardensheetmetal  Send Email to hardensheetmetal     
Broken Boat-

Not sure if this will work because it is a 25, but it sure does seem like it might help make life easier [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1187532177{/url]

Dan

hardensheetmetal posted 09-05-2001 05:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for hardensheetmetal  Send Email to hardensheetmetal     
woops, finger slipped http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1187532177

Dan

Barry posted 09-05-2001 05:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
You might have better luck with this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1187532177

Only a $100. Of course the shipping from the NJ to Hawaii might cost a little.

Barry posted 09-05-2001 05:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Barry  Send Email to Barry     
You beat me to it Dan. I guess I should have refreshed before I posted.
JAC posted 09-17-2001 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for JAC  Send Email to JAC     
The glass work alone is task enough, but what success have you all had with re-pressuizing the foam to insure a good fill between the hull and de-laminated foam ?
BW does this to achieve 35# of static pressure, filling the hull like a balloon until the foam sets. How do we do this ?
LarrySherman posted 09-17-2001 11:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for LarrySherman  Send Email to LarrySherman     
You don't. BW does this in a steel mould. With the hulls pressed together, the foam is forced to fill all the contours of the two hulls as it expands. This is not possible without a massive hydraulic press.

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