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ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Drain Tube Replacment
|Author||Topic: Drain Tube Replacment|
posted 05-17-2002 10:22 AM ET (US)
[Since this older thread was published, the topic has been treated in the FAQ. Please see the FAQ for more information.--jimh]
I have seen a few comments on replacing the OEM through hull tubes with PVC type. Has anyone done this ? How well do the flanges seat ? In some cases the two hull surfaces are not perpendicular, will the PVC conform ?
posted 05-17-2002 12:39 PM ET (US)
Jim, I made my own from the "too short" variety you found, along with some 1" glue on the inside heat shrink tubing, and some PVC. No, the two surfaces are not perpendicular, or even parallel for that matter. But you were going to use some 5200 sealant to mount the tube, so just make sure you use enough to do a good sealing job... Whaler will sell you a cobbled together version that looks like the one I made with a higher price tag. Even theirs doesn't look completely one piece. Although considering the majority of it is inside the hull, all you see are the ends, and they look normal.
posted 05-19-2002 11:52 AM ET (US)
Jim, I'm currently replacing some of my thru-hull fittings. I couldn't find pvc that would fit the existing holes and then fit the plugs. I found Twin Cities Marine, recommended by members here. They stock the original brass tubes already flared on one side. They come in 15" lengths for about $11.00 + $2.00 for the rubber o-rings.($1.00/o-ring). I think it'll be easier to replace with what was already there than to reinvent the wheel so to speak. If you need shorter lengths you can cut the tube and get a few tubes from one.
Call Twin Cities Marine at 920-793-2715. Very good service!
posted 05-19-2002 05:59 PM ET (US)
The tubes that are 1 and 7/8 I think that come w/ one side flanged (or peened - sp??) - How do you peen the other side after puching it through the hull. I know some places have a tool for this but have been unable to find locally (or even see one or a pic of one online)
The end of one of my original ones rotted and was hanging so I forced it back together with a tightened drain plag and siliconed it. Would like to fix it the right way.
West Marine had only cheap looking platic ones or the single peened ones. Wish they had threaded ones that would seal well w/ the washers and some sealant.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 05-20-2002 01:17 AM ET (US)
You use a flaring (or flanging) tool to flare the other end once it is in the hull. The flaring tool is a simple die that threrads onto a piece of allthread or long bolt and them you tighten it with a wrench and the die is pulled into the tube and the end flares out and over.
The flaring tool costs about $35. One source is Hamilton Marine http://www.cpostores.com/hamiltonmarine/browse.cfm/4,6791,0,0,0.htm
posted 05-20-2002 01:45 AM ET (US)
Thanks again!! You saved my day. I had ordered the tubes from Twin Cities but couldn't find anyone that had a flaring tool. Twin Cities said theirs was on back order for awhile. I thought I'd be waiting for awhile. Just ordered my flaring tool.
posted 05-20-2002 07:31 AM ET (US)
Thanks Tom! I was about to give up and go w/ the cheap looking ones. One respected marine store said they had one but had to fabricate it themselves and had no idea where I can buy them.
posted 05-27-2002 01:39 PM ET (US)
Wish I had known about the flange tool last summer. I ended up taking the Whaler dealers advise and used a small ball-pene hammer to flair the outside edge (took about 40 minutes to get it just right). The origonal lasted over 30 years, so I guess I'll be OK without one (flange tool) for a bit..
posted 05-27-2002 10:55 PM ET (US)
Could someone describe how the through hulls are supposed to look. I have a 1985 Outrage 18 and I took a look at the anchor locker drain for the first time this weekend. On the indide there seems to be a brass fitting on the inside but no sign of one on the bottom of the hull.
The bilge through hull seems to have a fitting on either end, so I assume that there is something wrong with my front one.
Any help will be appreciated.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 05-27-2002 11:21 PM ET (US)
Both the drain tubes on your boat should look the same. They should be made of brass if original with rubber O-rings on each side of the hull.
On the bottom of the hull you should not be able to see the drain tube holes because they should be covered with a "clam shell" ventilator which acts as a venturi to help water drain while under way.
Could it be that the "clam shell" over the rear drain has been broken off?
posted 05-28-2002 11:04 AM ET (US)
The rear drain is intact, with a clam shell, and visible rings on inside and out. The locker drain has a noticable ring on the inside but on the outside the clamshell is missing and the hull is smooth, no sign of any ring. I guess I need to replace that throughhull and clamshell.
posted 05-28-2002 05:53 PM ET (US)
Questions on this brass drain tube installation: (I have to replace two of them, and already have the correct crimping tool)
1. What is the best way to remove the old tube, which is about 3" long. Do they come out easily?
2. Since the tube is installed from the inside of the hull, how much should be left exposed on the outside for the "roll crimp", including covering the O-ring gasket.
3. The factory "rolled" end on the new tube is not enough to cover the O-ring. Will the tool roll the crimp over the o-ring on that end also?
Thanks in advance for any help here.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 05-29-2002 08:18 PM ET (US)
For your benefit I have been experimenting with the drain tubes from CSW which I have saved along with that part of the transom.
Both drain tubes on this boat, (1970 13' Sport), were in very good condition. This is probably because the boat spent it's whole life in fresh water at Lake Tahoe, CA.
The rubber O-rings were intact but beginning to break down.
These tubes came out easily. Other than the flare, there is nothing holding them to the hull.
I used a reciprocating saw (Milwaukee Sawzall) with a 6" metal cutting blade and slit the length of the drain tube leaving the flared ends intact so as not to cut into the fiberglass skin in any way.
I then finished the cut through one of the flared ends with a hacksaw blade held in my gloved hand. Brass is quite soft so this should not be a problem. I was careful not to cut the skins as I finished the cut.
I actually left a little bit of the flare intact knowing I would break it with the pliers in the next step.
Taking a pair of pliers I grabbed the drain tube right next to the cut and twisted the pliers thus bending or twisting one side of the cut into the hole. I twisted as far as the brass would allow and did the same on the other side.
The idea here is to reduce the overall diameter of the drain tube. Once this is done the drain tubes just slid right out. This whole operation took less than five minutes.
I marked a new brass tube about 3/16"-1/4 longer than the thickness of the hull making sure the tube was firmly inserted as far as it would go. I then used a tubing cutter to cut the tube at this mark.
The tubing cutter tends to compress the tube so I had to open it up a bit with a reamer. These drain tubes are not perfectly perpendicular to the hull so I then ground it down a bit with a belt sander which also helped clean up the edge of the tube.
I finished by sanding the edge with some fine sand paper and made sure the die of the flanging toll would fit.
I sprayed all the parts of the flanging tool with silicone spray to help reduce friction and assembled it through the new tube in the hull.
Using a 1/2 drive ratchet and a box end wrench I tightened the flanging tool down. It takes quite a bit of effort, I was surprised. I think I would have sheared off a 3/8 ratchet.
The tube I had bought at West Marine had the same size preformed flare as the originals from CSW. It rolled through not quite 180°. West Marine also sold another brand that did not have nearly the flare of the original, perhaps 90°.
Tightening the flanging tool down rolled first the unflared end but it did also continue to roll the finished and as well. I suspect If you keep cranking the edge would just keep rolling. The brass did not split at all.
In the end the O-rings are still visible as the originals were. The brass did not come all the way back to the hull. You could probably get it there but watch out for blowing the O-rings out. I think Larry Sherman had problems with this when he did his 25 Outrage last year.
The first thing I do on the next Whaler I buy will be to pull all the drain tubes. No way those O-rings are keeping the water out in the long term.
When new tubes go in it will be with a polyurethane caulk for water proofing. There is no need to coat the entire tube with caulk but the ends where they meet the fiberglass skins need something more than a compression fit O-ring to keep the water out.
posted 05-30-2002 02:57 PM ET (US)
Many thanks for your excellent and detailed reply! It doesn't seem like too big of a job at all.
I need to replace the front center well drain tube in the bow of my 25, which has corroded through from winters in the saltwater, and is showing residue of dried, greenish (from brass corrosion) salt crystals. I suspect some small amount of water has gotten in, but it seems to drip back out and dry after a month on the trailer.
For those interested, I was able to buy both the replacement brass tube, and crimping tool from a Whaler Dealer who stocks these items, for a cost of about $40. Contact Lauderdale Marina in Ft Lauderdale if you need these items. This is less than paying a shop rate to have them do it. They also rent this tool out for $10 a day to locals, and have the tubes in all lengths, including the long ones for the Montauk.
posted 05-30-2002 03:10 PM ET (US)
I know we all like to keep our boats as original as possible but...
It looks to be like the plastic thru-hulls are the current technology and will last as long or longer then the hulls.
If a boat spends any long-term time in the water (weeks, month) would it not be safer to install plastic w/5200? This being more true with the CSW info that it's much better that the foam never get wet in the first place.
posted 05-30-2002 08:10 PM ET (US)
I am doing the drain tubes on my 1976 13 sport. I went around and around on the brass vs plastic tubes. I have decided to go with the brass. The plastic tubes have a larger diameter than the brass. You have to enlarge the opening in the hull twice for each tube. I, therefore, would have to enlarge 4 openings in the fiberglass. Four opportunities to screw it up. I think I can handle the flaring of the brass tubes just fine. If I screw that up I simply try again with a new tube.
I am not all in all that handy with tools. I man got to know his limitations.
posted 05-31-2002 10:28 AM ET (US)
Just remoned lower transon drain tube on '** Newtauk. I cut lip of rim drain with a dremel cut off peice (waffer thin disc) careful to just cut brass in 4 placeds. then pulled rim into the center. I then used a scrap piece of pine for 2"x2" and whittled (sp.) down to a round-ish end. I tapped the drain out with a rubber mallet and the wood piece. Easy and took about 10 minutes. the original pipe has a slight angle in it. The rubber O-rings had begun to rot the pipe was OK but showing signs of age. Has new brass piece and am waiting for crimping tool from Hamilton Marine. Local Marine mechanic recommends 3M 4200 vs 5200...the debate continues.. have a great weekend all. John O
|Tom W Clark||
posted 05-31-2002 01:10 PM ET (US)
Plastic drain tubes are used on the new Whalers and are being used by some Whaler owners to replace the original brass tubes. This makes some sense for a Whaler that will be moored in salt water which will degrade the brass much more than fresh water.
I do not for a minute think that plastic is the end all for drain tubes. It is true that plastic will not rust or corrode but the notion that it will last forever is just not true.
My concern with plastic would be it breaking down with age. I deal with plastic parts all the time that become brittle and fall apart after a few years. I believe sunlight and the UV rays have a lot to do with this but even a drain tube in a Whaler is going to suffer.
For a fresh water boat brass may be the better choice. Witness the durability of the drain tubes in CSW. After 32 years they were still in good shape. I do not think plastic will last that long. The O-rings were not as durable and because of this the seal was lost. The seal may have been lost in the 1970's, who knows?
For installation of a plastic drain tube, wouldn't it just be better to glue a length of tube in with a caulk and not even worry about the ends? The caulk will hold it in place and provide the seal so why even worry about aligning flanges and getting some special part? The ends can then be ground flush with the hull and allow more complete drainage.
That immaculate 1989 25 Hard Top Walk around I looked in January had all the through hulls replaced with plastic tubes. The guy who did the work epoxied them in place. In i.d. of the tube was much smaller, like 3/4 which I did not like and the build up of epoxy along with the flanges on the tubes themselves made for poorly draining sump areas. It looked rough as well, quite different than the rest of the boat.
I agree that enlarging the hole for a plastic tube presents its own set of liabilities. You don't want to mess it up an over size the hole in your boat.
Using the original brass tubes has the advantage of keeping the boat original as well. With the addition of a good caulk it will be sealed just as well as a plastic tube. So it seems durability is the one issue and a lot of that has to do with where the boat will be kept.
For caulking a drain tube in, be it plastic or brass, I think this is one place where 3M 5200 is NOT appropriate. It will make future replacement too difficult. 3M 4200 would be a better choice as would 3M 101 or Sika 240. I think drain tube replacement needs to be considered a maintenance item and as such you want to be able to get them out in the future.
posted 06-16-2002 03:37 AM ET (US)
Has anyone done this in one of the bigger boats like the Revenges? Any surprises in store for me in the bigger hulls? I'm thinking of doing plastic instead of brass since the boat will be in salt exclusively.
posted 06-16-2002 06:05 PM ET (US)
When I replaced my brass drains, I first used a drum sander (had one that was a perfect size) to clean up the hole (wood and fiberglass)then I put some of that life time boat chaulk on all the surfaces (brass and the hole)... My thinking was that if any water should make it past the O ring then the boat chaulk would act as a second barrier... I hope I'm not the poor *#&** that has to change out these drains the next time... I just used needle noze pliers and twisted the old brass tube around it (much like the old coffee cans used to open)... This worked pretty good on the old originals...
posted 06-17-2002 01:26 AM ET (US)
Actually got all of the perko covers off with out much trouble -- chipping off the bottom paint and then gouging out the screw slots with a sharp angle tool (like a dentist!)
Like most have said, the drains are thin and easy to bend toward the center of the hole (from outside the hull) and then just pull out from inside of the boat with vise grips.
Got about a cup of water from the lowest drain -- and this is on a boat that hasn't been in the water since January!
Four out, three to go. Fun way to spend my first day with the boat, though.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 06-17-2002 09:42 AM ET (US)
With the brass drain tubes, you do not want to coat the entire tube in caulk. It might seem to act as a second barrier but it will not. Even if the entire tube were coated on caulk, water getting past the o-ring will be on the "back side" of the caulk and in contact with the foam. The only thing the caulk will now do is protect the water in the foam from contacting the brass of the tube.
The only place you really want to caulk well is the ends of the drain tube where it passes through the fiberglass skin. Once water is past the skin it's free to soak the foam.
In the case of the plastic drain tubes there many be an advantage to caulking the entire tube. If it's glued in really well there will be no reason for having a flange at all to hold the tube in place. This has the advantage of allowing the use of any tubing you want. The ends of the tube can be ground flush with the hull and allow water to drain more freely.
posted 06-17-2002 12:41 PM ET (US)
I get your drift... But its already a done deal (did it last year).... To soon old, to late smart has been the story of my life... The tubes I had replaced were through the stern and I found no foam at all ... It was solid wood sandwiched by the fiberglass shells... I smeard the chaulk all over the inside of the hole (on the wood and fiberglass edge)... I would think that this might seal out the water even without the brass tube installed... I hope my theory holds water (rather, holds back water that is)... Next time I'll know better how to replace these tubes...
posted 06-19-2002 02:47 AM ET (US)
Okay -- all the old brass thru hulls are out -- the easiest of all was the 9 inch-ish front center one, which has a slight bend and which I thought would be the hardest.
What kind of plastic tubes are out there? As noted here, sched 1 (gray) PVC has the right outside diameter, but is too small for the plugs on the inside, there is a thin-walled black PVC that seems right but 'lightweight.'
Before I go reaming out the plug ends and re-inventing the plastic wheel, what exactly have you folks who've done plastic used?
Is it okay to use poly urethanes to seal PVC? I was going to use 4200 as Tom mentioned, but this article has me wondering: (paragraph 10 under 'polysulfides' and 6 under 'poly urethanes.')
posted 06-20-2002 05:51 PM ET (US)
Any thoughts on the sealant/caulk question from the above post?
posted 06-22-2002 08:13 AM ET (US)
Regarding Twin City Marine .... I just purchased 2 engine well and 1 hull drain tube from them. Items arrived at my door 3 days after ordered. The lady I spoke to "Sue" was so knowledgeable and friendly I was going to ask if she had a sister in N.Y..
These are great folks to deal with !!
posted 09-30-2002 02:21 PM ET (US)
Well, this weekend I TRIED to replace the crimped (rolled edge) brass drain tube in the bow of my 25. This fitting drains the big, deep, center well, and is almost vertical.
It turned out to be a disaster.
I followed all of the accurate instructions on this thread, and had no trouble getting out the old drain tube. It had a hole though the side, but when I first discovered this 2 years ago, I skimmed it over with Boat Life caulking, and this held up pretty well. Surprisingly, the foam in the area was still dry. I was also surprised to see how thick the outer hull laminate was, about 3/8". This spot is about 6" above the keel. Guess that's why they tell you to bear the weight of the boat on the keel.
I had already purchased two 3" brass drain tubes, and the $40 crimping device. I thought the job would be simple, but I was wrong. In my boat at least, the 1" drain hole exits the hull on the outside at about a 5 degree angle, so I sliced off the tube to match, leaving the necessary crimping length.
But the crimping die slides tightly in the tube, and seems to only be for a perpendicular cut, and would not crimp the tube at an angle to properly lie against the hull. After splitting the first tube, and getting a truly lousy job, I then had to cut it out again. Then I tried the second tube, same problem. The end of the brass tube would roll over, but instead split in several places. I was also using Boat life caulking, and this appeared to act as too much lubrication, resulting in O-ring blow out even on the inside. I think caulking should not be used. Four hours total, wasted.
So tomorrow moring, the boat is going up to Twin Cities Marine in WI, and I'm going to let them deal with installation of this little beast. I'll watch how they do it, and report back.
Earlier threads had talked about using a trailer ball and ballpeen hammer to do this job. If the tube does not exit the hull perpendicular, it seems impossible to me that the crimpiong tool, with the 1/2" bolt down the middle, can be used, and the hammer would be the only solution. In my case, there is no way to hold the tube in place while you hammer the other end, The inside terminates in a little sump, and faces mostly upward.
So if you are planning to attempt this job your self, BE CAREFUL installing the new tube if both ends are not perpendicular to the axis of the tube.
posted 09-30-2002 04:11 PM ET (US)
Had the very same problems LHG descibed. This was on the long 14" transom tube on '63, 16.5' whaler. Had to take the first attempt back out, and purchased a second tube from Twin Cities to try again , but have been putting it off. LHG ,please report back on how to correct this problem, as i'm not close to any marine centers who do this kind of repairs. By the way i also used the flaring tool which was also purchased from TCM.
posted 09-30-2002 05:28 PM ET (US)
Again... for all your effort and $$, I'd remove these flimsy rarely used tubes and glass them over.
posted 09-30-2002 05:46 PM ET (US)
Capt - In a 25, admittedly, this bow well drain is rarely used. Mine has been plugged continuously, and there is a small 500 gph bilge pump down in there to get rid of small amounts of water. But in heavy going, if the boat became filled with water, that drain tube is essential in re-floating the boat and getting the huge volume of water out of there. The plug would have to be pulled to allow the floatation to float the boat up and drain water out of this below decks "hold". So I think it's a saftey/survival issue, and worth keeping functional. I'm not going to second-guess Whaler's design & engineering work.
posted 09-30-2002 07:36 PM ET (US)
I agree... with the plug out you can only get so much water in the well/boat. When my tubes were rotten, water at equilbrium came almost up to the top of the first sill or just under the removable floor board. It is still a lot of water... but the upper deck is nice and dry even when flooded. I don't think you can tell your flooded without looking. You have to love a whaler.
Before I fixed my tubes, I noted that it took a long time to drain the front well via the tubes... I think my 1000 gph pump would be a little faster than the tubes while under way. But with the plug in (or no plug at all) I could fill the front well up to the deck... maybe enough to get the boat in trouble? Guessing at the size the well (7 feet x 2.5 feet x 3 feet deep) = 50 cubic feet x 8 pound per gallon x 7.82 gallon per cubic foot = 2,350 pounds of water.
Does anyone actually use the front well for fish? You must have to use a pail to get water above the lower floor board. I removed the this lower floor board, cleaned the well after years of accumulation,and user this area for heavy storage. With a little mat that allows wash downwater etc to seep to the pump at the rear, this a great area to store almost everything, even may two anchors and double chain... the weight is low and midship. I wish it were big enough for my kayak!
LHG... Good luck with you tubes. Even after professional installations, mine still leaked... it looks like they didn't remove enough old caulking/paint to get a clean fit.
posted 09-30-2002 10:43 PM ET (US)
Here is how I solved the problem of finishing the ends when they are not parallel, or to be more exact, not perpendicular to the axis of the through hole tube. I replaced the transom tube this summer on my '72 Katama. It is about 13 inches long and the forward edge at the bilge tapers as does the transom end. To make matters worse, the hole is not a straight shot. I calculated that the ends were about 3/4 inches out of alignment. I took the tube to a metal shop where the goon bent it more than I asked, about a 1 1/2 inches. It kinked a bit, but that does not matter as it is all hidden. I stuck the tube half way back into the thick walled transom and cranked it back to the slight bend it needed to go through from the front to stern. A poor man's tube bender. Since both ends needed a bevel cut, I stuck the new 15 in brass tube in from the bilge, traced the bevel needed using a fine Sharpie marker, removed it and hacksawed off the nice flared end it came with. Then I proceeded to flare this end with the bevel cut.
The flaring tool is just two cylinders of steel with a 1/2 inch hole through them. These cylinders go from one outside diameter (.92 in. or so) to 1.25 in. They go from one dia. to the next with a radiused surface which does the rolling of the brass tube when the two parts (these steel cylinders) of the tool are brought together by crunching them together with a 1/2 in. dia bolt or in the case of the transom a 15 in. piece of all-thread rod. The tool assembled looks like an old bicycle axle with just the outer bearing races and nuts and no hub or anything else. The problem is that the bevel cut end is not perpendicular to the axis of the tube. Plus my tube had to be bent to begin with. Flaring the tube with the tool and a threaded rod was going to buckle the tube. Also the outer edge of the bevel cut was going to flare and the inner edge was never going to be touched. I ground a bevel of the inner cylinder of each half of the tool so that when inserted into the brass tube the radiused portion of the tool would contact the beveled cut all the way around. In other words, the tool fit into the brass tube cockeyed. I inserted one half of the tool into the beveled end and hit it with a hammer till I formed a new flanged end for the o-ring to seat against. I actually "fixtured" the brass tube in one hand while doing this. I stuck the brass tube in from the bilge with a new o-ring in place. I traced a new angled circle around the portion sticking out of the transom. Someone earlier on the forum said to leave about 1/4 inch extra to leave enough metal to form around the new o-ring on, so that is what I did. I pulled the whole thing apart, coated the fiberglass holes with polysulfide calk and reassembled with both o-rings in place. I put one half of the flaring tool in the brass tube on the bilge end and blocked it with two pieces of wood and a rag to protect the fwd edge of the bilge opening and had my wife stand on it to force/hold the new tube in place against the o-ring. Then I took the other half of the flaring tool stuck it in the transom end and hammered it to flare the brass tube around the new o-ring on this end. Voila!
It worked out pretty easily. The leading edge of the bevel rolls over much more easily than the back edge so you have to preferentially hit the back surface of the tool to get an even flare. I was surprised the brass never split. Also, I accidentally did not have the tube clocked corectly when I marked and cut the transom edge. The inner edge bevel was not properly seated against the slanted bilge face. I luckily left enough material to modify my outside bevel and still have enough material to flare around the o-ring. I actually never did roll metal around the entire o-ring. I just flared it enough to compress both o-rings in place and capture them. Also, making perfect mitered cuts by hand with a hacksaw leaves something to be desired, so err on the side of leaving too much material and then grinding if your need to.
I bought the tube (actually an extra to be safe) and flaring tool from Twin Cities Marine. Sue is great. I called, ordered and had the stuff at my door three days later. I did not do the project for another month. I believe their toll free number is 888-WHALER? Needs an extra digit somewhere. Bad memory other than fantastic survice. Sue even scanned some Katama brochure covers for me and emailed them. I hope my solution to the problem was clear if not too wordy. Tim
posted 10-01-2002 07:40 PM ET (US)
I still don't get why everybody wants to use the metal tubes.
I replaced all 7 on my 25 revenge with PVC, calked in place and then with an epoxy 'collar' over the end, just to keep water from pushing past the caulk (put a nice big bead of 5200 on some gelcoat (even sanded a little) and then hit it with a garden hose and you'll peel it right up...) The cool thing is the long tube can bend a little with the front tunnel and you can grind/cut the ends right off before you fit on the clamshells.
posted 10-02-2002 06:17 AM ET (US)
I too replaced the tubes in my 18 outrage. My brother in law let me use his special tool and after rolling a couple of o rings out and having the transom tubes a different diameter i just took the correct length tube, put an o-ring coated in 5200 and using an 1-1/2 trailer ball as a mandrel on one end, and a ball pein hammer to tap tap around slowly I got a perfect roll and seal at every angle with no buckling of tube and curled the brass all the way around the ring. I worked great and took me about 5 minutes per hole. on the one in the anchor locker, I had my son holding the trailer ball. What are kids for?
posted 10-02-2002 12:42 PM ET (US)
Everyone wants to use brass tubes to "Keep it stock", and because they want something to worry about 6 years from now.
Everyone bashes plastic tubes because of the UV problem. Plastic may have a UV problem, but atleast it's on the outside of the hull where you can SEE a problem. My brass tube corroded in two 1" into the hull where I couldn't see the problem. I doubt it corroded completely in two over night. I suspect it created a perforation which helped the remainder of the tube along. One day I pulled the plug, and got 1" of tube too... With a UV problem, plastic usually lets go all at once.
As for the 4200/5200 debate: When the UV degrades my plastic tube enough that it needs to be replaced, a fresh razor blade and I will deal with the 5200. It does cut with a razor blade... In the meantime, I know the best material available is bonding the tube to the hull, and keeping the water out.
posted 10-02-2002 05:45 PM ET (US)
I'm not concerned about the UV problem -- unless one's boat is capsized, I don't see the through hulls getting a lot of sunlight. Maybe the scupper one in the engine will (Ironically, the only one of mine that was in mint condition...)
As for 5200, I didn't use it because of discussions on the web and on adhesive sites that said it would eventually break down PVC (as will all polyurethanes, apparently...) I used "lifeseal" caulk which is a combination silicone and polysulfide, I think -- but it is apparently recommened for use on plastics.
posted 10-03-2002 04:59 PM ET (US)
I sanded down my transom removed old brass thruhulls and used schedule 40 3/4" PVC pipe. The fit was perfect, used a piece of wood against the end of the tube and tapped them in. Let them stick out 1/8 inch and coated transom with three coats of epoxy. Then I mixed some epoxy with chopped glass ( to give the epoxy body ) and built up around outside edge of tube sticking out, sanded and two coats of gelcoat. The gelcoat should protect against any UV. Looks really nice and plugs fit perfect !
posted 10-03-2002 05:33 PM ET (US)
Did Twin Cities get your drain tube in? If so, how did they install it, any updates would be appreciated as I,m getting ready to tackle this job once again. The only problem I had was with the angles, lookes close to 10deg. and using the flaring tools with the all-thread rod.
posted 10-03-2002 07:29 PM ET (US)
Kevin - Quickly, since I'm real short on time right now, they did the job quickly for me for $35, with great service. I did not have quite the right tool (there are two slightly different ones available), and the brass tubes I was using, by SeaChoice, may have been a brass compound too hard to crimp without splitting. More early next week. I don't think Twin Cities is selling the coorect tool either, unless the crimp is totally 90 degrees to the hulls.
The older tool they used is not the same as the new one they're selling.
Twin Cities is a first class Whaler operation, neat and clean and with a large stock of Whalers for sale. Sue is the bosses' daughter, and really knows a lot about Classic Whalers. Does not visit this site, however.
posted 07-02-2009 01:43 AM ET (US)
[Seven years later...]
Tom, what size drain tube do you need for a 1978 SPORT 15? It is more than a foot long and about 3/4. I think you say get a ceryin Mcmaster Car part for larger Whalers with a 1 inch pipe what part would you need from them for a 3/4, Thanks
[See the FAQ for details.]
posted 07-03-2009 01:27 PM ET (US)
From the FAQ, "If below the water line, the outboard end of the drain should be protected with a clam shell vent, located so that it covers the forward half of the drain. This creates a venturi effect when underway which improves draining and also protects the leading edge of the drain from being blasted with high-speed water."
My 1984 Outrage 18 didn't have the clam shells when I purchased it last year. Over the years they have probably been removed or destroyed on many Whalers. Did Whaler always from day one install them and on all boats?
After some thought came to the conclusion the shell's most important function must be to help prevent water intrusion into the hull while underway.
posted 07-08-2010 08:09 AM ET (US)
I just went through the entire process of replacing my brass tubes with brass tubes and the tool from Twin Cities.
I read this thread three times and I am pretty handy with all forms of tools.
My results are exactly the same as LHG's. The lower transon outlet is at a good angle while the inner is fairly straight and sealed nicely. While attempting the angled flare I could not keep the O ring from blowing out at the top of the tube nor could I get a proper flare on the upper edge.
Two things come to mind with this operation.
1- the tool should have a third beveled flare washer with the 1/2 inch center hole drilled at an angle so it will fit inside the tube on an offset angle.
2- BW should step up to the plate here and produce a two piece tube with each end having the correct flare and with a male to female compression fit inside the tubes so they could be glued together. Something similar to how exhaust pipes slide in to each other.
We would then just slather both ends and the compression joint with 5200 and the O rings and crimp them in place with threaded rod until the glue is set. Lets face a fact here. If your flare is not perfect on either end then we rely upon the 5200 to make the seal. The minute amount of seepage that may occur around the compression fit would be no greater than what occurs at the O rings. The absolute most important seal is the external, below the water, angled outlet and this is the very hardest one to get right.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 07-08-2010 08:47 AM ET (US)
This thread is very old. Since this one was started, there have been many others. The most comprehensive of them is this one which the Drain Tube FAQ directs to you to:
I have replaced dozens of drain tubes now. It has become easy for me to flare the needs at extreme angles up to 25 degrees. My pneumatic flaring tool makes this chore much easier but it can be done with a hammer as well.
Bill -- No, Whaler did not always use the clam shell venturi. Early boats did not have them but by 1984 they were in use. At any rate any boat with a drain tube that comes out the bottom of the hull should have the clam shell to protect the drain tube from hydrostatic pressure and the chance of water being forced into the foam core.
Gary -- I'm sorry you are having trouble. It really is an easy chore once you get the hang of it. Read the aforementioned thread to understand my techniques for dealing with the odd angles and to learn how I modified one of the dies on the flaring tool.
For the record, Whaler offers exactly the drain tube you describe. It is terrible. It is a two piece plastic drain tube that locks together with ribs or barbs once you get it positioned.
It requires the hull be drilled out oversize to accommodate the plastic drain tube and there's no going back once that is done. The molded ends have flanges set square to the tube so it will not fit any odd angle at the hulls surface without the tube being forced into a bend.
The factory now uses these tubes and I have seen gaps from the factory of up to 3/8" from the poor fit of them.
The beauty of the brass tubing is it can be made to conform to odd angles and the flare itself has a much smaller outside diameter than any other tube.
Daniel -- The small Whalers all use 1" brass tubing, none use 3/4" See the aforementioned thread for part numbers and specifications.
posted 07-08-2010 11:27 AM ET (US)
Thank you Tom and all the others with great advice in this thread. Sorry to have hauled this old dog back up but I have now had some success after making the correct tools.
I still have to get the tube installed yesterday out and make the final flare on the inside of the sump but this one is fairly straight and sealed well.
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