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Glue/Adhesive for Console Rebuild
|Author||Topic: Glue/Adhesive for Console Rebuild|
posted 05-30-2002 05:25 PM ET (US)
Thanks all for the many fine tips that everyone has shared during the leadup and beginning of my Sakonet console rebuild. Now that most of my pieces are cut, I am ready for the next step of putting it all together. I have read a few different topics about glues and adhesives that can be used. My questions are as follows;
1) Where can I find Resorcinol (sp)? One thread said at Home Depot but I have been to three stores and nobody has heard of it.
2) Gorilla Glue - Have heard good things about this polyurethane glue but also that it foams up which can cause over spill. This surely would lead to areas that couldn't be stained or be a different color under varnish. When plugging the plywood, I don't have much material that I can sand off before going through the veneer.
3) What adhesive/glue do I use for bonding the plywood to the support pieces before screwing them together? Would this be the Resorcinol or would I use 3M 5200?
4) 5200 - This comes in Mahogany color, could this be used elsewhere? Is this even the right choice for my application.
There are so many critical steps to a beautiful finished piece and I don't want to screw it up halfway through.
Thanks again for the helping hand.
posted 05-30-2002 05:30 PM ET (US)
If I was doing this I would lean towards using west epoxy to provide a base hold. It works great on wood. I would however use it sparingly to avoind seepage etc, but this is just a matter of being careful and paying attention. Having said this, I am no carpenter and perhaps some sort of woodworking glue is better to use. I used west on my console, that was built nearly 10 years ago and it has held up very well.
posted 05-30-2002 09:43 PM ET (US)
My local lumberyard (hardwood lumberyard) guys tell me that resorcinol is no longer available due to EPA rules. They recommend Gorilla Glue but point out that is tends to "grow" in use. It also stains your hands black. I've only used it once and found it slow to set, but very strong. It is supposedly not as waterproof as Resorcinol.
The other choice they recommended was epoxy. I've had no experience with this product on hardwoods.
posted 05-30-2002 10:55 PM ET (US)
Recorcinol is not - I repeat NOT - being taken off the shelves because or anything. It is fully available. The have it at my local Ace Hardware. There is also a variation of it called Aerodux 500 available on the internet (but you have to buy it buy the gallon).
Grilla glue is great stuff. Yes there is squeeze out, but simply scrape it off, and/or sand. You will not have to sand so much that you will go through the veneer.
Recorcinol would be my first choice. Then gorilla glue. Epoxy is famous for failing.
|Tom W Clark||
posted 05-31-2002 01:17 AM ET (US)
I doesn't surprise me that the people at The Home Depot have never heard of resorcinol glue (which you can see @ www.homedepot.com), they are morons. I have yet to find a worker at The Home Depot who knows much about anything.
As Brian points out, resorcinol glue is available as it always has been. No plans to nix it that I have heard. My local lumber yard has it on their shelves as of today.
Any glue that you have to mix (resorcinol, plastic resin, epoxy) is a pain. Polyurethane glues like Gorilla, ProBond, ect can be used straight "out of the bottle". You might think about that.
Polyurethane glues do foam up and expand. I just repaired a teak deck chair with some ProBond and I really liked the convenience of not mixing. It did foam up but I sanded it down flat after it cured as I would have any glue. It did exert quite a bit of pressure so you have to be aware of that when clamping.
If it were me building or repairing a mahogany console, I'm not sure what I would use. I probably would not use epoxy because of its expense and messiness. Plastic resin would be a possibility. You have to mix it with water but is otherwise very easy to use and has a long pot life.
Polyurethane glue might be the ticket if you can avoid sanding through any plywood veneers. The glue itself accepts stain and finish as well or better than most other glues.
It really comes down to personal preference and comfort. Any of the above mentioned glues will work, there are others as well. You do not need the absolute strongest glue in the world. I suggest you play around with some scrap as samples to find which product you are most comfortable with.
posted 05-31-2002 01:09 PM ET (US)
I used West epoxy this winter to glue up a custom mahogany console on my 77 Sport 15'. Both for joining boards as well as added adhesion between screwed boards. So far so good. As Tom says, it is messy and expensive but seemed the right choice for me (as I have plenty on hand from repairing the hull).
posted 05-31-2002 02:31 PM ET (US)
Can you elaborate on your comment that epoxy is famous for failing ? I would like to learn more about this.
posted 05-31-2002 03:22 PM ET (US)
Epoxy fail? No way. I built a stitch and glue plywood sea kayak that I have had in heavy ocean conditions, and the expoxy joints are easily many times stronger than the wood itself. Tom's right, mixing epoxy can be a pain, but it does offer some advantages. Slow cure epoxies good you long pot time, and reasonable working time to set up jigs, clamps etc. Also, they can be thickened with wood flour, cabosil or microballoons to get just the consistency you want. With a little practice, you can make a bulletproof joint with no weeping. With slow cure, you have plenty of time to mop up any weeps with acetone before they dry. Also, epoxy will accept varnish and be invisible underneath it, so there is less to worry about. Finally, thickened epoxy will fill voids and make the joints not only tight and strong, but waterproof. I would use it on any unsealed plywood edge to prevent wicking under any circumstances. The downside: fumes (wear a respirator) and the hassle of mixing. I've had great luck with MAS brand epoxies, which don't leave any amine blush. Here's a link showing what you can do with the stuff: http://home.earthlink.net/~andygere/ches17/chespk.html
posted 05-31-2002 06:36 PM ET (US)
About epoxy failing, I would like to quote Larry Pardey, from his book "Details of CLassic Boat Construction." This book is a de facto text and required study at many wood boat building schools. I thought this was appropriate since we are talking about bonding wood with epoxy. It is long, but here goes. The quote is taken from pages 501-501 of Appendix C.
"If I sound unhappy with epoxy as an adhesive, it is because over the past 15 years, I have tried several systems and found them unreliable, espically for use in the tropics. I have experienced and seen failures on deck structures, with stressed scarf joints such as on toerails and laminated tillers. Although I once thought these failures happened because epoxies are rated as "water resistant" only, I have since learned that epoxy loses strenght when it is applied below 65 degrees F and when is is subjected to heat and apparently to salt spray.
"As shown (here is a footnote relating to a Wooden Boat Magazine test showing the loss of strenght of epoxy because of enviromental factors) common boatbuilding epoxies lose strength (deflect, creep) as temperatures rise above 100 deg. F. The most flexible systems, surcch as T-88, start to lose strength as temperatures rise above 101 deg. F; West System has an HDT (heat deflection temperature) of 118 deg F; System Three's HDT is 124 deg. F. On an 80 deg. day, sunlight can cause the temperature of painted with surfaces to raise to 128 deg. F, light blue or aluminum 143 deg F; red 178 deg F and black 198 deg F, according to the West System "Cold Strategy" phamplet. Bare teak decks can reach 140 deg F, as can engine rooms after several hours of powering.
"The 3M company and Dexter Corporation preformed tests on room-temperature-cure structural epoxies they formulate for the aerspace industries wich do relate to boat building. They subjected adhered aluminum joints to both saltwater spray and tap water at 100% humidity. After 30 days, the saltwater sprayed joints which initally had a shear strength of over 3100 psi, sheared apart at 500 psi, while those subjected to 30 days of tap water still had a shear strength of 2942 psi. (It is interesting to note that the epoxy laminated compisiste boats cited by marine epoxy formulators as long-term successes such as the trimaran Adagio are kept on the Great Lakes.)"
The quotes abose are not mine but from the book. I did not include all of the footnotes. They cite specific tests and manufacturer phamplets.
Don't get me wrong, I love epoxy. I used it in the John Boat I built, and I was just using today while laying up some fiberglass. My opinion is that is has a very specific place with laminating woven materials, ans some other bonding operations. Simply is does not even compare to resorcinol glues.
posted 06-01-2002 09:38 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the data. I see where you are coming from now. I think that for the application we are speaking about, a console rebuild, that epoxy would be fine as it would not be subjected to the heat and saltwater used in the tests you refer too. Nor would it get a lot if UV's, which also damge epoxy.
posted 06-01-2002 10:09 PM ET (US)
There is saltwater and sun/heat in the Bahamas right?? :)
I think it would work fine for a console rebuild. It just wouldn't be my first choice. However, it is easier to use than resorcinol.
posted 06-02-2002 12:57 AM ET (US)
Interesting article, and I agree that any epoxy joint exposed to sunlight and water should be protected with varnish or paint. Nevertheless, epoxy is so widely used in boatbuilding (cold molded hulls, strip built hulls and stitch-and-glue hulls), my sense is that it is still a very suitable material for bonding wood in a marine environment. I am amazed at it's strength on the scarfed plywood joints on my kayak. My guess is it would work fine for a console, but in a very hot environment another glue might be more appropriate.
Years ago I worked in the Burton Snowboard factory, and among my many jobs was performing destructive testing of the boards. Then, as now, the boards were a matrix of laminated wood, fiberglass (cloth or stage b) and epoxy. In all the tests I performed (usually at temps <32 F), I never saw a failure of the epoxy. If the board was assemlbed too dry (not enough epoxy), the joint could fail under severe stress. Most failures on properly built boards were of the wood core itself, and only then after subjecting them to a variety of abuses using specialized machines.
posted 06-03-2002 11:34 AM ET (US)
There are many good answers to your question (what glue to use)... I personally use thin CA on the screw holes (let it dry before putting in the screw or you will never get the screw back out again) and for the surface wood I use PL 400 wood glue (home depot has it) as it is water proof and to date I have not had any sign of debonding... On the epoxy issue, there are many many different types of epoxy out there... If you choose to go that route be sure to get a exterior (water proof not resistant) type... Just my two cents worth...
posted 06-03-2002 01:14 PM ET (US)
Yep, plenty of Sun and Salt in the Bahamas; I live in Bermuda ( another island ) and we have ample supplies of both - my point was just that in this use of epoxy,[ joints on a console ] it would not be subjected to direct uv's nor continuous saltwater.... I assume covereage of the joints with paint or varnish.
Ciao from a sunny and salty Bermuda !
posted 06-03-2002 09:24 PM ET (US)
When I was restoring (or weather proofing) the wood on my 13, I used the polyurethane glue to glue up a couple of pieces of cypress to use on the side of the console. (I used cypress since it will not rot in fresh water [and mahogony will]). As Tom noted, it does indeed foam up. This is especially noticiable if the two surfaces being glued are not matched exactly. When I sanded down the surface, the foam had a lot of little holes that it took a couple of coats of primer and Interlux paint to fill in. I used buscuit joints to hold the pieces together. (I make no pretense about being a craftsman like Tom).
So far, everything is holding together fine, but I have been keeping the boat out of the elements.
posted 06-03-2002 10:19 PM ET (US)
I don't question the poster who says that Resorcinol wood glue is still available, but I thought I'd check to see if I could find any safety messages on the net to support what my lumber yard saleman told me.
Here's a quote from a wood working website (for what it's worth):
"#8. Resorcinol, DAP Weldwood - Do not use below 70°. Requires heavy clamping pressure. Two part system mixed before use. Best used with a respirator, or outdoors, and gloves and goggles as the fumes and the powder both are hazardous. Best used on woods with 8 to 12% moisture content. Fairly expensive. Sometimes hard to find. Slight gap filling properties. Water clean-up before cured. Cannot be removed after cure. Good creep resistance."
posted 06-04-2002 08:40 AM ET (US)
Thanks for all the feedback on my question. Woodworkers Warehouse here in New England has the DAP Resorcinol glue in stock. Only about $18 for the system. I have some on hold and will pick up shortly.
What does everyone think about applying the first thinned coat of varnish on the outside exposed surface of the pieces before gluing and screwing? This would certainly eliminate the glue from soaking into the outside wood and leaving any barriers. Any thoughts?
posted 06-04-2002 08:52 AM ET (US)
I am not sure how well this will work, but it is worth a try on a test piece.
Please remember that resorcinol will leave an appreciable purple/black glue line. I think it looks very classy. Some don't. If you look at any classic wood boats, espically many wood, rag boats, you will see this like at nearly every joint.
posted 06-04-2002 06:02 PM ET (US)
Gorilla glue foam can usually be scraped off, but sometimes it gets into the grain of mahogany and you've got to sand through the grain to fully remove. If one is sanding plywood, there may be some risk of sanding through the veneer layer (I unfortunately did this with thin veneered cherry ply - ouch).
I recall an article in a woodworking journal (Fine Woodworking) which recommended a reasonable idea for edge-gluing boards for panels. I cannot admit to trying it, however. The suggestion was to tape both side of the board at the glue joint before applying gorilla glue or epoxy. Remove the tape after and the surface should be free of most of the glue foam or squeeze out.
posted 06-04-2002 07:18 PM ET (US)
I wish I would have thought about saying that. I use tape on the inside edges of dovetail jonts.
posted 06-04-2002 08:41 PM ET (US)
Has anyone used JB Weld for wood? The tube says it can be used on wood, and I know it binds metal so tough that you can grind it flush with what you're gluing.
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