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Author Topic:   Hull Defect on 1974 Revenge

dreamer posted 03-16-2003 12:54 PM ET (US)
I just received my 1974 Revenge today and found the aft section top part of my Revenge loose or unsecured from the hull. How is it secured to the hull? What is the procedure for securing it? Any references available to study?
All input appreciated, thank you.
jimh posted 03-16-2003 01:43 PM ET (US)
In 1974 Boston Whaler made 19-foot or 21-foot models called REVENGE.
If you browse to http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage37.html your will find a photograph of a "Lo-Profile" hull. I believe that the construction of the REVENGE was based on using a 3-piece hull, and the Lo-Profile shows the first two pieces without the third topside piece in place.
The hull itself and its inner liner are two laminate molded structures. These are assemblied in the UNI-BOND process and filled with foam, creating the familiar Boston Whaler hull.
The topmost structure, which in this case provides the deck and topsides of the REVENGE, is molded separately and added to the UNIBOND hull and liner after they are cured.
I do not know the precise details of how the topside molded laminate structure is bonded to the fully cured and gelcoated surface of the hull liner, but I would assume that the bond is not a primary-bond as obtained with freshly curing resins. This is called a secondary bond.
My guess would be that the topside is retained to the liner by a combination of mechanical bonding and adhesives.
To date, I believe you are the first person to report any separation of the topsides molded structure from the hull on any Boston Whlaer. This technique was used in constructing all the REVENGE series model through the 1990's and is used extensively today in the creation of the current Boston Whaler boats.
Of course, the 10-year warranty on this hull has expired over twenty years ago. But I am sure that if you contact Boston Whaler Customer Service Manager Chuck Bennett that he will have some information for you that could help you accomplish this repair.
dreamer posted 03-16-2003 04:11 PM ET (US)
Thanks Jim. I emailed Mr. Bennett and asked him to respond to my question on your site. I'm sure there will be other Whalers in the community interested in the response.
rwill1 posted 03-17-2003 07:13 AM ET (US)
My 19 Outrage had the same problem. I thought that it was the worst aspect of the design. What caused the delamination in my case was using the rear cleats to tie up in a very choppy well.
Bigshot posted 03-17-2003 09:40 AM ET (US)
My 74 19' Revenge did the same thing. I do believe it is just screwed/riveted together like the cap on my Newport. Can't remember exactly being 15 years since I owned it.
dreamer posted 03-17-2003 01:06 PM ET (US)
Hi All
Can I assume then, It's not a real,real serious problem? Just a routine job of bracketing the gunnal to the transom after re-riveting, sealing, and gluing with epoxy? I asked Mr. Bennett to respond to my question on this site. Hope he does..
Thanks, I feel a little better now...
Bigshot posted 03-17-2003 01:33 PM ET (US)
See....even Jimh learns something new on this site. I do not believe it was an issue on the 21' like on the 19'. No biggie, just make it solid however you do it.
dreamer posted 03-18-2003 05:53 PM ET (US)
Hi All: Just received "ok" from Mr. Chuck Bennett of Boston Whaler to post his response.
"The 19' models in the 70's (both the Outrage..center console and the Revenge...forward cuddy) are based upon the same foam filled hull. The only difference is the addition of a fiberglass top skin that was riveted to the hull.
It sounds like some of the rivets either deteriorated/broke or the fiberglass on the topskin was damaged, allowing the top skin to lift up. To gain access to the rivets and fiberglass, remove the rub rail insert (just pull it out of it's track) and drill out the rivet heads holding the rigid rubrail in place.
Removing the rigid pc of rubrail will expose the rivets that "should" be holding the top skin on.
Refiberglass as needed and install new rivets.
A good bead of 3M5200 marine sealant/adhesive might help to seal and bond the topskin to the hull"
Thanks Chuck...
dreamer posted 03-20-2003 12:53 PM ET (US)
I am posting another question - answer from Chuck Bennett of Boston Whaler for the BW Revenge community.
Question:
I have a question regarding the 3M5200 adhesive/sealant. Would thickened 2 part epoxy with the rivets hold the top fiberglass skin to the hull better in terms of adhesion and moisture barrier?
I am very picky about "restoration". I am planning to lift off the whole portion above the hull, rout a shallow channel on the hull side,fill with thickened epoxy, drop the top down, and rivet-starting at midships and working towards the bow and stern. Then using saturated fiberglass strips, overlapping both top and bottom from the inside of boat. Is this over-kill? This would require 4 workers to accomplish.
Response from Chuck Bennett:
"I suppose it would work out okay...When Whaler built the old style 21' Outrages/Revenges we used a two part epoxy to bond the top skin to the hull. The preparation was to grind (scuff up) the two surfaces to be bonded with a 36 grit grinding disc, apply the epoxy and, quickly clamp and rivet the two together before the epoxy kicks. I've never heard of anyone ever separating the two afterwards.
I wouldn't recommend routing a trough though, as this could weaken the gunnal. Just scuffing the edges with the grinder (not even through the gelcoat) should be enough to bond the two."
"Bigshot; This is probobly why you have not found this hull separation on 21' Revenges.
andygere posted 03-20-2003 06:28 PM ET (US)
I think either 5200 or epoxy will provide a good bond between the cap and the hull, along with mechanical fasteners. Both are used in extensively in the industry for just that purpose on new boat construction. That said, I'd opt for epoxy thickened with cabosil since it will be easier to work with. If you use a slow-cure type (I've had good luck with MAS brand) it gives you a lot of time to set, adjust and fasten the cap. While 5200 cures very slowly as well, it's so thick, sticky and gloopy I think it would be hard to work with on such a large joint. I second the veto on routing a channel. It adds no strength and does nothing to improve the bond. The epoxy alone will provide a stronger joint than you can imagine, and the rivits or screws serve only as temporary clamps while the epoxy cures. I used a similar technique to attatch the deck on a stitch and glue kayak, and the bond is simply bulletproof and absolutely water tight. If the cap and hull surfaces mate well, I think overlapping with glass cloth is overkill, and won't add any strength.
dreamer posted 03-20-2003 11:35 PM ET (US)
Hi Andy,
Thanks for your input. The primary reason for the separation of the gunnel (from the input offered to me from other 19' owners) is when the boat is tied-up by the aft cleats in rough water. True, according to Chuck Bennett, the 21' were epoxied and riveted together and there were no reported incidents of separation to date.
Since the boat I am working on had the gunnels pulled-up by the aft cleats. I decided to epoxy, rivet or screw and epoxy saturated strips of 6oz matting on the inside joint, especially on the aft gunnel/transom areas. Avoiding an unsightly bracket screwed to the exterior. I also agree with the consensus-no "channel" routed on the hull interface. I'll know more once I get into it. As I am not 100% sure how accessible the inside joint is. Want to help?
Bigshot posted 03-21-2003 10:04 AM ET (US)
I never tied up on the stern cleats. Mine came lose from jumping 8' breakers all day long.
dreamer posted 03-24-2003 01:02 AM ET (US)
Progress update: OF "FIX-EM-UP" 03-22-03
All rivets removed from rub-rail and the hull/cap (ground heads off w/4"grinder and punched them thru w/counter sink) The removal exposed a pegboard pattern approx. 2"wide starting at the transom and going all around the boat back to the transom. Ground gelcoat around a lot of needless holes and chips on the transom and filled with "Splash-Guard"; expensive but good stuff, easy to work with and it works (epoxy base). Removed most of the hardware on deck and the canopy. Took stuffing out of cuddy cushions and sun dried. Scrubbed cushions w/oxyclean. Saving progress photos. Don't know how to use my computer to show you folks.
Bigshot posted 03-24-2003 10:03 AM ET (US)
Quick way to remove rivets is with a drill, forget the grinder. Stick a drill bit in the hole for a split second and it drills off the head, then punch through.
dreamer posted 03-24-2003 12:15 PM ET (US)
I was planning to grind the cap edge and fill all shallow holes with Splash-Guard. Grind smooth again and lay a strip of fiberglass cloth/matting on it and epoxy it. Then shape it with sander.
Also will fill rivet holes on the hull side in preparation for screwing. I planned to use machine screws every 6" to 8" to secure cap to hull then jam fiberglass rope saturated with epoxy into the small space between hull and cap. Got a better way?


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Author	Topic: Hull Defect on 1974 Revenge
dreamer	posted 03-16-2003 12:54 PM ET (US) I just received my 1974 Revenge today and found the aft section top part of my Revenge loose or unsecured from the hull. How is it secured to the hull? What is the procedure for securing it? Any references available to study? All input appreciated, thank you.
jimh	posted 03-16-2003 01:43 PM ET (US) In 1974 Boston Whaler made 19-foot or 21-foot models called REVENGE. If you browse to http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage37.html your will find a photograph of a "Lo-Profile" hull. I believe that the construction of the REVENGE was based on using a 3-piece hull, and the Lo-Profile shows the first two pieces without the third topside piece in place. The hull itself and its inner liner are two laminate molded structures. These are assemblied in the UNI-BOND process and filled with foam, creating the familiar Boston Whaler hull. The topmost structure, which in this case provides the deck and topsides of the REVENGE, is molded separately and added to the UNIBOND hull and liner after they are cured. I do not know the precise details of how the topside molded laminate structure is bonded to the fully cured and gelcoated surface of the hull liner, but I would assume that the bond is not a primary-bond as obtained with freshly curing resins. This is called a secondary bond. My guess would be that the topside is retained to the liner by a combination of mechanical bonding and adhesives. To date, I believe you are the first person to report any separation of the topsides molded structure from the hull on any Boston Whlaer. This technique was used in constructing all the REVENGE series model through the 1990's and is used extensively today in the creation of the current Boston Whaler boats. Of course, the 10-year warranty on this hull has expired over twenty years ago. But I am sure that if you contact Boston Whaler Customer Service Manager Chuck Bennett that he will have some information for you that could help you accomplish this repair.
dreamer	posted 03-16-2003 04:11 PM ET (US) Thanks Jim. I emailed Mr. Bennett and asked him to respond to my question on your site. I'm sure there will be other Whalers in the community interested in the response.
rwill1	posted 03-17-2003 07:13 AM ET (US) My 19 Outrage had the same problem. I thought that it was the worst aspect of the design. What caused the delamination in my case was using the rear cleats to tie up in a very choppy well.
Bigshot	posted 03-17-2003 09:40 AM ET (US) My 74 19' Revenge did the same thing. I do believe it is just screwed/riveted together like the cap on my Newport. Can't remember exactly being 15 years since I owned it.
dreamer	posted 03-17-2003 01:06 PM ET (US) Hi All Can I assume then, It's not a real,real serious problem? Just a routine job of bracketing the gunnal to the transom after re-riveting, sealing, and gluing with epoxy? I asked Mr. Bennett to respond to my question on this site. Hope he does.. Thanks, I feel a little better now...
Bigshot	posted 03-17-2003 01:33 PM ET (US) See....even Jimh learns something new on this site. I do not believe it was an issue on the 21' like on the 19'. No biggie, just make it solid however you do it.
dreamer	posted 03-18-2003 05:53 PM ET (US) Hi All: Just received "ok" from Mr. Chuck Bennett of Boston Whaler to post his response. "The 19' models in the 70's (both the Outrage..center console and the Revenge...forward cuddy) are based upon the same foam filled hull. The only difference is the addition of a fiberglass top skin that was riveted to the hull. It sounds like some of the rivets either deteriorated/broke or the fiberglass on the topskin was damaged, allowing the top skin to lift up. To gain access to the rivets and fiberglass, remove the rub rail insert (just pull it out of it's track) and drill out the rivet heads holding the rigid rubrail in place. Removing the rigid pc of rubrail will expose the rivets that "should" be holding the top skin on. Refiberglass as needed and install new rivets. A good bead of 3M5200 marine sealant/adhesive might help to seal and bond the topskin to the hull" Thanks Chuck...
dreamer	posted 03-20-2003 12:53 PM ET (US) I am posting another question - answer from Chuck Bennett of Boston Whaler for the BW Revenge community. Question: I have a question regarding the 3M5200 adhesive/sealant. Would thickened 2 part epoxy with the rivets hold the top fiberglass skin to the hull better in terms of adhesion and moisture barrier? I am very picky about "restoration". I am planning to lift off the whole portion above the hull, rout a shallow channel on the hull side,fill with thickened epoxy, drop the top down, and rivet-starting at midships and working towards the bow and stern. Then using saturated fiberglass strips, overlapping both top and bottom from the inside of boat. Is this over-kill? This would require 4 workers to accomplish. Response from Chuck Bennett: "I suppose it would work out okay...When Whaler built the old style 21' Outrages/Revenges we used a two part epoxy to bond the top skin to the hull. The preparation was to grind (scuff up) the two surfaces to be bonded with a 36 grit grinding disc, apply the epoxy and, quickly clamp and rivet the two together before the epoxy kicks. I've never heard of anyone ever separating the two afterwards. I wouldn't recommend routing a trough though, as this could weaken the gunnal. Just scuffing the edges with the grinder (not even through the gelcoat) should be enough to bond the two." "Bigshot; This is probobly why you have not found this hull separation on 21' Revenges.
andygere	posted 03-20-2003 06:28 PM ET (US) I think either 5200 or epoxy will provide a good bond between the cap and the hull, along with mechanical fasteners. Both are used in extensively in the industry for just that purpose on new boat construction. That said, I'd opt for epoxy thickened with cabosil since it will be easier to work with. If you use a slow-cure type (I've had good luck with MAS brand) it gives you a lot of time to set, adjust and fasten the cap. While 5200 cures very slowly as well, it's so thick, sticky and gloopy I think it would be hard to work with on such a large joint. I second the veto on routing a channel. It adds no strength and does nothing to improve the bond. The epoxy alone will provide a stronger joint than you can imagine, and the rivits or screws serve only as temporary clamps while the epoxy cures. I used a similar technique to attatch the deck on a stitch and glue kayak, and the bond is simply bulletproof and absolutely water tight. If the cap and hull surfaces mate well, I think overlapping with glass cloth is overkill, and won't add any strength.
dreamer	posted 03-20-2003 11:35 PM ET (US) Hi Andy, Thanks for your input. The primary reason for the separation of the gunnel (from the input offered to me from other 19' owners) is when the boat is tied-up by the aft cleats in rough water. True, according to Chuck Bennett, the 21' were epoxied and riveted together and there were no reported incidents of separation to date. Since the boat I am working on had the gunnels pulled-up by the aft cleats. I decided to epoxy, rivet or screw and epoxy saturated strips of 6oz matting on the inside joint, especially on the aft gunnel/transom areas. Avoiding an unsightly bracket screwed to the exterior. I also agree with the consensus-no "channel" routed on the hull interface. I'll know more once I get into it. As I am not 100% sure how accessible the inside joint is. Want to help?
Bigshot	posted 03-21-2003 10:04 AM ET (US) I never tied up on the stern cleats. Mine came lose from jumping 8' breakers all day long.
dreamer	posted 03-24-2003 01:02 AM ET (US) Progress update: OF "FIX-EM-UP" 03-22-03 All rivets removed from rub-rail and the hull/cap (ground heads off w/4"grinder and punched them thru w/counter sink) The removal exposed a pegboard pattern approx. 2"wide starting at the transom and going all around the boat back to the transom. Ground gelcoat around a lot of needless holes and chips on the transom and filled with "Splash-Guard"; expensive but good stuff, easy to work with and it works (epoxy base). Removed most of the hardware on deck and the canopy. Took stuffing out of cuddy cushions and sun dried. Scrubbed cushions w/oxyclean. Saving progress photos. Don't know how to use my computer to show you folks.
Bigshot	posted 03-24-2003 10:03 AM ET (US) Quick way to remove rivets is with a drill, forget the grinder. Stick a drill bit in the hole for a split second and it drills off the head, then punch through.
dreamer	posted 03-24-2003 12:15 PM ET (US) I was planning to grind the cap edge and fill all shallow holes with Splash-Guard. Grind smooth again and lay a strip of fiberglass cloth/matting on it and epoxy it. Then shape it with sander. Also will fill rivet holes on the hull side in preparation for screwing. I planned to use machine screws every 6" to 8" to secure cap to hull then jam fiberglass rope saturated with epoxy into the small space between hull and cap. Got a better way?