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Author Topic:   painting a 13 whaler
thewad posted 02-18-2004 04:06 PM ET (US)   Profile for thewad   Send Email to thewad  
I am restoring my 1970 13 whaler. Can any one tell me how well the paint job turns out when you brush or roll the paint on. What color white should you use. Also the inside is blue, what is the name of that color.
JBCornwell posted 02-18-2004 06:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for JBCornwell  Send Email to JBCornwell     
Howdy, Wad.

If you are really restoring, don't paint. Restore the gelcoat surface instead.

Red sky at night. . .
JB

sammo99 posted 02-18-2004 11:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for sammo99  Send Email to sammo99     
In my research of what to use to paint the bottom of my 13 foot whaler, I have come to the conclusion that I will be spraying on a 2-part polyurathane. My neighbor is a pro painter and will be spraying it for free. When I talked with some local people about applying gel coat, they were going to charge me $1200. Since I got the boat for free and it is a 1968, I'm just going to do the minimum to get it back in the water.

One thing I was told is that there are two types of resins used for repairs, one is epoxy and the other is polyester. Gel Coat is a polyester material. IT WILL NOT CURE ON TOP OF AN EPOXY RESIN REPAIR. Epoxy resin can cure on hardened gel-coat. In my case, I'm using the West Marine 406 filler with the 205 Epoxy Resin to redo the entire bottom of my boat. I'm also applying a heavy fabric just in front of the transom to allow for heavy impacts. I'm hoping for many years of use, just like the 13' footer my grandfather had.

DaveNJ posted 02-19-2004 07:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Like JB, I also am a big advocate of gelcoat and not paint for restoration. I would never buy a used painted boat, even a classic Whaler. You cannot repair paint as easy as gelcoat. If you cannot bring back the oxidized gelcoat with Meguiars #44 or compounding, you can re-apply gelcoat by yourself if you do some homework and practice on something small first.

The cost of gelcoat is very cheap compared to paint. I am not talking about buying the $65/quart color matched gelcoat from Spectrum. If you are re-gelcoating a hull, you can buy white gelcoat from UScomposites.com for $27.50 per GALLON and buy some pigment to tint yourself. Experiment with color matching. It may take some time but look at the money you will save. You will have to invest in a compressor and a good quality Binks clone spray gun. You will still be way ahead in costs versus paying a pro to paint. You will have some good repair equipment too for the future. You will also have learned some handy fiberglass boat repair skills.

If you have time and patience, you can re-gelcoat for very little cost by doing it yourself. Also, gelcoat is much more forgiving if you mess up. It is easier to repair than paint too. The 2 part paints are deadly too. Polyester resins and MEKP are not great either, but I would rather work with them using a good respirator than AWLGrip paints.

Check out Will Borden's site for a good DVD on fiberglass and gelcoat repairs. I am not affiliated with him, just want to recommend him because he has helped me out.
http://www.fiberglass-repair.com/about.html

good luck,
Dave

thewad posted 02-19-2004 09:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for thewad  Send Email to thewad     
THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE. I'M GOING TO RESEACH USING GEL COAT. I DO HAVE A COMPRESSOR, I JUST NEED TO GET A GOOD SPRAY GUN.

THEWAD

whaler2255 posted 02-19-2004 03:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for whaler2255  Send Email to whaler2255     
Just make sure you get the correct thinner and nozzel size for the gel coat. When I went to spray my 16 foot I did not have the correct thinner or nozzel size for the gun and almost ruined my spray gun and I wasted a whole can of gel coat. I ended up roleing the bottom coat then wetsanding and then brushing a top coat. Did not come out as good as I wanted wished I had invested in the right spray gun. Don't make the same mistake I did. Invest in the proper gun!
John W posted 02-19-2004 10:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
DaveNJ, why would you never buy a painted boat? I've heard that view expressed here by a couple of people & can't make sense of it. You wouldn't buy a painted boat, but you would buy a re-gelcoated boat? What is the difference? If it's not a true "original" finish, neaning the original gelcoat, what difference does it make (from a re-sale perspective) whethre the re-finisher used gelcoat or polyurethane?

Every classic (factory gelcoated) Bertram, Viking, Post, etc from the 1960's & '70's that has been refinished has been painted. No one re-gelcoats larger yachts, it's too labor intensive to get true "like new" appearance. A recent polyurethane paint job adds significantly to the market value of a Bertram 31 or similar "collectible" yacht, yet somehow some people on this site seem to think that repainting a 13' Whaler is somehow taboo in a restoration. To each his own, and if you've had good success re-gelcoating, more power to you. But I dissagree with the idea that somehow polyurethane paint is an inferior finish for an old Boston Whaler.

John

DaveNJ posted 02-20-2004 07:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Wad -
Layup some Fiberglass on a 2'x2' board or something first. Practice with the gelcoat. Then your transom. See how it goes and see if your compressor can keep up. You may need to rent a compressor for a day that could supply 9CFM at 100 psi to spray at 45psi without running out of air at your tank. Again, experiment. You don't have to spend $250 on a Binks #7 spray gun. Some of the Binks clones should be fine for a 1 or 2 time project.

If all goes well keep going. It should be a great project.
Time and patience will pay off. Report back on your progress and ask questions if you need help.

good luck,
Dave

keltonkrew posted 02-20-2004 07:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for keltonkrew  Send Email to keltonkrew     
I'm re-gelling my 13' now. I will be spraying the four-seal primer tomorrow and the gel hopefully a week from tomorrow.

I ordered a new gravity fed, HVLP gun. Gelcoat company recommened a 2.2mm nozzle so I ordered a new nozzle for the gun.

I'll post tomorrow evening after the primer to let you know how the first step goes.

The gel has been much cheaper than paint

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.keltonkrew.com/whaler.html

DaveNJ posted 02-20-2004 07:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
John W -

I would not buy a used painted boat for the simple reason that I would not be able to repair it. Also, what will that paint look like in 15 years ? Could you bring it back like a 1960's gelcoated Whaler ? After it has faded will you be able to color match a spot repair ? I don't know, but I am not willing to find out when gelcoat is cheaper and easier to work with.

I also don't have tons of money to have the local boatshop do the job for me every 4-5 years. I can't compare a yacht to a 13' - 17' Whaler. Are there any Repair Forums for owners of Luxury Hatteras yachts with questions repairing their hulls ? Repair on a yacht = turn it in for a new one.

My post is to offer some ideas (In a Repair Forum) to help the do it yourselfer. Gelcoat is the more forgiving material for me. Yes, it is just my opinion.
AWLGRIP paint is deadly. This is a fact.

If you have to repair it yourself at home in your garage, which do you want to use ? Which would you want to teach your son to use ?

My guess is that in 20 years, people will be posting on this forum of the best way to remove faded, chipping AWLGRIP paint off their classic whalers.

regards,
Dave

AC posted 02-20-2004 06:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for AC  Send Email to AC     
Sammo.
West Systems claims gel coat WILL cure over an epoxy repair, provided you wash away the Amine Blush with water first.
jimh posted 02-20-2004 07:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
There is some incorrect information given in this thread regarding the nature of gel coat resins and their ability to cure when applied as a top coat over epoxy.

If you are interesting in learning the real truth about this, please listen to my interview with Jim Watson of WEST Systems. This is available as an audio-content feature on the website. A hyperlink is below:

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/radio/

To correct the erroneous information given in this thread:

In general gel coat resins that are exposed to air will never properly cure unless special additives are mixed with them.

Gel coat resins can successfully be applied as top coats to epoxy resins provided the surface has been properly prepared. Epoxy resins tend to produce amines when curing, and these must be removed by proper solvents. The proper solvent for amines is water and soap. Solvents like acetone will not remove amine blush from epoxy laminates.

John W posted 02-22-2004 09:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
Dave,

First of all, I apologise if the tone of my previous post was a bit confrontational. It was late. I'm glad to hear about your success with spraying gelcoat, it's certainly an option for people to consider.

I'm right there with you with cost being an issue, I won't be paying any professional yard to restore my boat(s), I'll be doing it in my garage. My point about restored Hateras, Bertram yachts, etc was strictly to refute the notion that some have that if someone paints a 30 year old Boston Whaler they're destroying the boat's value. I simply don't believe that to be true, assuming the boat's cosmetic shape is bad enough to warrant refinishing (beyond compounding) in the first place. It is true that Awlgrip is exxpensive stuff, although I believe that the cost of paint every 10+ years is not particularly significant in the overall cost of ownership & restoration of a classic Whaler, assuming you're doing the work yourself.

I agree that spraying polyurethane paints is dangerous, however after painting four boats with my father using 2 part polyurethane paints, I think (and hope) that using these paints with a roller & brush, following the instructions associated with that method, using a high quality mask & protective clothing, is not significantly more hazardous to one's health than using gelcoat, epoxy, polyester resin, etc. Frankly, I'm most worried about asbestosis from inhaling fiberglass dust from the prep work before refinishing, which is the same risk whether using gelcoat or polyurethane.

Are people going to be trying to take off their Awlgrip paint jobs 5-10 years down the road? Highly unlikely, given that repainting a previously painted boat is easier than doing it the first time. How is a gelcoat restoration going to look after 10+ years? I don't know, but my guess is it'll be due for some refinishing work as well.

You are correct that polyurethane paint jobs are not very repairable compared to gelcoat (although Imron is more repairiable than others). I would counter that with the notion that most beginners will have an easier time getting a "like new" finish (if that is their objective) using Sterling or Awlgrip with a roller & brush than they will trying to spray gelcoat.

My point isn't to talk you out of the success you've had with spraying gelcoat. It's simply to refute the idea that a polyurethane paint job (which is used as a factory finish on virtually every custom yacht available today) is an inferior product in refinishing an old boat, Boston Whaler or otherwise.

John

DaveNJ posted 02-23-2004 07:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
John W -
Thanks for the insightful reply. It is good to get a friendly exchange of ideas going so more people can make informed decisions.

Only time will tell on paint vs. gelcoat repair jobs.

What did you mean about asbestos in fiberglass during prep ?
I thought that fiberglass mat or cloth is just glass fibers that sometimes have a binder to hold it together. I did not think there was any asbestos in it. Especially the new cloth or mat.

Are you talking about older fiberglass mat ? Does this have asbestos ?

Please reply.

thanks,
Dave

erik selis posted 02-23-2004 08:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for erik selis  Send Email to erik selis     
John, I am also very interested in the answer to Dave's asbestos question.
Hasn't asbestos been banned from all building materials since the early 90's?(or even sooner)
Could it be that asbestos was used in fiberglass mats used in boats in general before they were banned? I hope not!

Erik

John W posted 02-23-2004 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
I shouldn't have used the word "asbestosis". You're right, there is no asbestos in fiberglass matt or cloth. An attorney I know has told me that personal injury lawyers are bringing "Asbestosis" lawsuits for lung tumors resulting from foreign matter in the lungs, regardless of whether asbestos is present or not. To my knowledge, fiberglass is not the carcinogen that asbestos is, although it is my understanding that breathing any non-biodegradable particle can cause scarring, tumors, etc in the lungs. This is what I'm worried about. Sorry for the confusion/alarm.

John

keltonkrew posted 02-23-2004 12:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for keltonkrew  Send Email to keltonkrew     
That's the reason to wear a respirator when sanding.....whether it be wood, fiberglass, etc.

also since we're on a safety topic, don't forget the hearing protection (sanders make a lot of noise) and safety glasses.


Jason,

I replied to your email hopefully answering your questions

thewad posted 02-23-2004 03:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for thewad  Send Email to thewad     
Has any one used a micron paint.

Sammo99 how would you know if a fiberglass repair on your boat was fixed by epoxy.

wad

sammo99 posted 03-01-2004 10:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for sammo99  Send Email to sammo99     
thewad

The only way to know if an epoxy repair has been done is to know you did it. I have talked to a lot of people who have been doing repairs in the Portland area for many years. You can always place a top layer of polyester resin over the top of an epoxy resin to get a better bond with the gelcoat.

It all depends on how the epoxy surface is prepped. The guy that told me about the epoxy bonding problem is worth checking out, ask around to local repair companies and see what they say. The guy I talked with has been doing this type of work for over 30 years.

In my case, I prefer the epoxy resin because it is a West System product. The work on my boat is saving it from the dump. It will look like a new boat when I am done and it will last a long time.

If I'm going to be gelcoating my boat, it will be due to the fact that I can't sell it. I don't think that will be a problem.

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