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Author Topic:   Wood Finish
upsetnauset posted 02-20-2004 01:21 PM ET (US)   Profile for upsetnauset   Send Email to upsetnauset  
My son and I have almost finished sanding out the wood from his 13 sport. Figuring on some type of spar ... but do any of you have a particular product that is better than the rest. He is 13, and I would like him to do the work. Any ideas.
John O posted 02-20-2004 02:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for John O    
I like Sikken Cetol. Easy to apply and only requires a light sanding and addtional coat every year or two.
andygere posted 02-20-2004 03:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
There are a lot of good threads on this in the archives, including some good stuff on how to apply a first-class varnish job. It's definitely worth doing a search.

I have had great results with Captain's brand varnish, and would reccomend it to anyone. Stay away from hardware/home center brand "spar" varnishes, which don't have the UV inhibitors the marine brands do. While Cetol is a nice finish, it won't give you the gloss that a true varnish will. Varnish can be touched up with a light sand and recoat as needed just as Cetol can.

andygere posted 02-20-2004 03:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Here's a link to a short but good article on using marine varnish:

http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/shoptips_varnishing.php

Cicada posted 02-20-2004 08:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for Cicada  Send Email to Cicada     
upsetnauset,

Are there any good wipe on marine varnishes? I think some kind of wipe on finish would be a little easier to handle for a thirteen year old. Depends on his capacity and interest. Some of the varnish finishes can take up to a month, or more, to complete. Most of that is waiting though.

I remember time being a factor with my kids. Maybe something that gives you a good finish in the least amount of time. Get the best quality that you can whichever way you go.

Sounds like a fun project.

Paul

macfam posted 02-20-2004 10:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for macfam  Send Email to macfam     
Just re-finished all the mahogany in my 1987 13' Super Sport.
The previous owner stripped it and left it to weather, so it was in pretty tough shape.
After deep sanding, and then real fine sanding (320 grit 3M)
and 7-8 coats (light snading and tack cloth in between each coat)of Z-spar Flagship (Pettit/Woolsey brand)the results are nothing short of spectacular. Like a mirror.
Foam brushes all the way.
I think it may be tough for a 13 year old in the patience department, but if he can take the time, it's a great lesson in quality results.
After all.......it is a Whaler......
greyg8r posted 02-20-2004 10:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for greyg8r    
This may be slightly off-topic, but I am nearly finished with the woodwork of restoring the mahogany on my 1974 Katama. The boat was previously owned by Florida Department of Transportation and they had painted the wood white. Some parts had rotted and were replaced.

After reading the copious threads on mahogany refinishing, I will eventually varnish it, but I don't want to now.

Will tung oil (or another product) protect and prevent discoloration for a few months until I can get around to finishing it?

Thanks,

Richard

frontier posted 02-20-2004 11:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for frontier  Send Email to frontier     
After sanding, we use Minwax "Gel Stain" easy to rub on for an even finish (I like antique Maple #603 or Mahogany #605). Wal Mart has it. Let dry for at least 24 hours. Then use at least 5 coats of Varathane Outdoor Gloss Waterborne "Diamond Wood Finish". Dries in just 2 hours to recoat, doesn't stink and easy water clean-up. Sometimes it's necessary to sand lightly between coats. Looks great, it's quick and you can do it in the house! Water-based outdoor Varathane is expensive (about $14.00/Qt. here in the Northwest), but with very little smell & quick dry it's great!
dscew posted 02-20-2004 11:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for dscew    
I don't think it's a good idea to oil wood that you're going to varnish later. I believe it may make the varnish not stick. Just a thought; I don't have any info to back it up. I re-did the wood on my Katama with Flagship--it's a fabulous and durable finish with a deep color that really brings out the natural color of mahogany.
Tom W Clark posted 02-20-2004 11:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Richard,

I would suggest you go ahead and varnish the wood on your Katama now. That is the best way to preserve its appearance.

However, if you are set on varnishing it later, or even if you decide to abandon that method of finishing, I would strongly recommend using Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil on the wood now.

Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil is a superior oil finish that I have used on the oiled teak woodwork on my boats over the last 15 years. As a stand-alone finish it should be applied in no less than three coats but really looks good after six or seven.

If you are going to varnish the wood, SeaFin Teak Oil is the perfect prep for it. It is an old wives' tale that you cannot varnish over oil. I know. I've done it.

The best way to apply it is to wet sand the wood with the first coat of Seafin. use 320 or 400 grit wet/dry paper and let the wood and oil create a slurry or paste that will fill all the pores or other imperfections on the wood. This will eliminate any need for those nasty "paste fillers" as the wood fibers/dust being pulled up by the sand paper already are creating the perfect match of color for the wood.

The biggest problem with waiting until a few months later to varnish will be the fact that the Florida sun may bleach the color of the wood. If you are going to be religious about covering your boat or at least the woodwork, then maybe you can get away with it. But otherwise, the SeaFin Teak Oil finish will need not prevent sun damage.

greyg8r posted 02-21-2004 04:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for greyg8r    
Okay, Tom,

When you told me I have a Katama, I got a Katama tatoo. (Well, I would consider it if I was a fan of tatoos.)

When you told me to get the desert tan windscreen, I called Mills and changed the order to desert tan. (By the way, it arrived yesterday and looks great.)

When you told me to mount the binnacle on the far starboard side, I did. (Turned out great, too, thanks!0

So, if you tell me to apply teak oil and then get off my butt and varnish it before using the RPS, I will.

Richard

AC posted 02-21-2004 10:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for AC  Send Email to AC     
Richard,
Are you familiar with PowerBoat Reports? It's a consumer resource for powercraft owners. Like Consumer Reports, they receive no money from advertisers, hence their conclusions are non-biased and not influenced by corporate marketers. PowerBoat Reports performed a 2-year test of 20 kinds of varnish. The test involved applying these 20 varnishes to teak boards in 2,3,5,& 7 coats, exposing them to sun, snow, sleet, fog, smog, rain, heat, cold, and the odd passing bird. It conluded in the summer of 2003 and the results were published in their November 2003 issue. The top performer?

Epifanes Wood Finish

If you want to discuss a subject that will invariably produce a rash of varying opinions, this was the one. West Marine even states in one of their catalog advisors: "If you want to bring the internet down, we suggest you dispatch a strongly worded posting about your preferred wood finish to popular online boating forums. We guarantee you will get spammed with thousands of reponses debating the properties of each brand, comparing them to other finishes, and explaining exactly how they should be applied. It is a topic that brings out emotions, brand loyalty, and valuable advice about technique."

Epifanes Wood Finish

Like to learn more about the details of the test? Go to www.powerboat-reports.com and order a back issue.

lhg posted 02-21-2004 10:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I used to subscribe to Powerboat Reports, but I don't think it's as unbiased as a lack of advertizing would indicate. I found them to be under the influence of the products given to them to test.

Manufacturers want to get their products reviewed, and hence give them the "product" to evaluate, such as boats with twin 250's on them, etc. Small stuff they may go out and independently buy, but not the big stuff. You draw your own conclusions, but I have mine, from about 4 years worth of subscriptions.

And we've already been through this (supossedly independent) JD Powers game.

upsetnauset posted 02-22-2004 12:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for upsetnauset  Send Email to upsetnauset     
Thanks for the copious advise. I will likely go with the PETIT/WOOLSEY. I have been happy with their products in the past. You guys are scaring me a little with the tatoo talk. Remember - this is for a 13 year old project. With my luck - he will have the WHALER label on his arm.
Thanks.
AC posted 02-22-2004 10:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for AC  Send Email to AC     
Larry,
While you may have a valid point about
John W posted 02-23-2004 12:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
AC, it is my understanding that "Epifanes Wood Finish" is an opaque finish similar to Cetol, as opposed to Epifanes Varnish, a traditional marine varnish. That brand of "wood finish" may last a long time, but that doesn't mean everyone will want to use it. I personally much prefer the look of traditional varnish over "wood finish" products such as Cetol.

Tom, this month's issue of "Woodenboat" magazine has an article on sealing wood prior to varnishing, and one of the methods suggested is wet sanding with Daly's Seafin Teak Oil just as you describe prior to applying traditional marine varnish. It certainly disproves the idea that you can't varnish over oily woods. Thinning the first coat(s) of varnish seems to be a key in avoiding varnish lifting problems on hardwoods such as teak & mahoghany.

Richard, you can oil mahoghany, it will work fine...my father had a mahoghany pulpit that he kept oiled for years. You will probably want to use some type of teak cleaner & do some sanding prior to starting the varnishing process, but the oil will provide some protection to the wood in the meantime.

I am about to varnish the teak console on my '71 Outrage, and I'll be using Detco Crystal marine varnish, a brand that I've read very good reviews of. But this is my first time with it, so I can't reccommend it based on personal experience yet.

John

Tom W Clark posted 02-23-2004 01:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I cannot take credit for the SeaFin Teak oil prep. That goes to Rebecca Wittman and her superb book: Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood

For anybody interested in a good primer on varnishing, I would heartily recommend this book.

I was, however, using SeaFin Teak Oil for many other things going back as far as 1988, long before Ms. Whittman published her book. SeaFin is good stuff (and a local Seattle Product, so I may be a bit biased).

As far as the Cetol "wood finish" or equivalent, I will say they appear to be quite popular. Cetol makes many very good and expensive products, some of which are a real pain to use.

However, I will say that I personally detest how the Cetol looks when used on the teak on boats. You couldn't pay me to live with that sort of orange plastic looking appearance. But to each his own...

SpeedBump posted 02-23-2004 05:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for SpeedBump  Send Email to SpeedBump     
Tom W. Clark is correct about Rebecca Wittman's superb book: Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood. It is well written and has many good pointers that even seasoned varnishers can learn from. Good content and beautiful photographs. It is money well spent for those wanting to do the job correct the first time around.
John W posted 02-23-2004 09:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
Tom, the article in Woodenboat was written by Ms. Wittman, so no wonder your method is the same as the article. It was an excellent article, anyone starting a varnish job might pick up this magazine at the newsstand.

Tom, "Speedbump", or any other experienced varnishers out there, I have a question for you: I plan to varnish the deak center console & teak forward deck hatch on my '71 Outrage. These items are constructed of teak planks seperated by white lines of polysulfide caulk (see Cetacea p.36). These items were originally oiled by Boston Whaler when new, but I definitely want to varnish them. Does anyone have any opinions on whether it will work to varnish over the caulk lines?

Varnishing around these caulk lines would be very difficult to pull off & have it look right. I originally planned to remove the white caulking, then varnish, and then re-caulk, however Frank Kehr advised me strongly against trying to remove the caulking after he attempted that on his Outrage II (the one in the Soundings articlews last year). It appears that the caulk may play a structural role, and removing the caulk was an extremely difficult job for Frank in his restoration.

I posed this varnish question a while back on the Woodenboat magazine repair forum, thinking someone there would know...the limited advice I got was that it can be done, but they felt that the varnish will prematurely fail over the caulk lines. But no one seemed to have any first hand experience. I spoke with the tech support person at Detco (the maker of the Crystal varnish I'm using; they also make Sterling paints, and also a polysulfide caulking for teak decks), and he said the varnish will work fine over the caulk, and the only worry will be the varnish yellowing over time over the white caulking (which I wouldn't mind). This was encouraging news, but I'm still not 100% convinced this will work long term. I would hate to go through all the trouble of 10 coats of varnish on the console & have the varnish crack or lift over the caulk lines a year later.

Does Ms Wittman's book address anything like this? Any opinions on my best course of action?

andygere posted 02-23-2004 09:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
John W, could you mask the caulk with 3M fine line tape? If you can match the caulk lines width to the right size tape, it might work well.
dreamer posted 02-24-2004 12:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for dreamer  Send Email to dreamer     
This might save you a nightmare - from personal experience.

1. When pouring varnish out of your stock container, pour just enough to do 1 coat - and through a filter into another can or cup.
2. Immediatly place the lid back tightly onto your stock container.
3. If you have some leftover varnish in that second container - toss it, container & all....
4. Clean your brush or whatever applicator you use in fresh solvent and a new cup or container..
5. Keep in mind at all times - "I am not white-washing a fence board."
6. Do not try and varnish 6' in one stroke!!
7. Do not whistle while your varnishing, you will find yourself working like Santa's little helpers...
8. On the more serious side; start your stroke 6 to 8 inches from the "wet edge" and stroke up to the "wet edge" and when approaching the "wet edge" lift your brush off gradually to meet the "wet edge". So, that does not mean sticking your brush 3/4 of the way into the varnish..

Good Luck..

peetmin posted 02-24-2004 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for peetmin  Send Email to peetmin     
Upset- I used the Epaphanes. I got the finish I wanted. This is what it looks like. Good luck with your project, it is rewarding to see it finished. pb

http://home.comcast.net/~p.butterfield/Projects.html

John W posted 02-24-2004 08:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for John W  Send Email to John W     
Well, I found my answer. I called tech support at Epifanes, Pettit Z-spar, and Interlux, they all said their varnished would work fine over polysulfide caulk, just like Detco tech support did. I guess I can stop worrying about it now.
AC posted 02-25-2004 04:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for AC  Send Email to AC     
Peetmin,
Cool Seat!
SpeedBump posted 02-25-2004 08:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for SpeedBump  Send Email to SpeedBump     
John W - From my experience you can varnish over sulfide caulking on teak and mahogany. Down side is the amber color of the varnish will change the nice white contrast of the caulk or seam compound. The varnish is flexible enough when cured to deal with the different properties of the wood and the seam compound.

good luck with the refinish job.

Ed Z posted 04-17-2004 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Ed Z  Send Email to Ed Z     

I had a thought on this issue... What if one were to use liquid mask on the caulk (tape off the wood and just paint it on the caulk)... Then just go ahead and varnish the whole thing... Once all is done, then use a razor knife and a straight edge to score a line riagt at the edge of the wood and caulk seam... Then just peel the varnish off the caulk parts and wash off the liquid mask... May need to use some 00 bronze wool to feather the edge...
mark holden posted 12-15-2006 02:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for mark holden  Send Email to mark holden     
I am buying a new sailboat that will have a teak toe rail and a teak cockpit floor. I do not wish to leave it natural and have it turn grey and weathered. I prefer to keep it looking rich and new. I am looking for the best way to do this and I don't mind keeping it up. I am leery of using a varnish on the cockpit floor due to it becoming slippery when wet. Someone suggested to me a mixture of lindseed oil (40%) spar varnish (40%) and turpentine (20%) to accomplish what I want. I am looking for recommendations, application methods and frequency.
PeteB88 posted 12-18-2006 02:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
Mark - you are on target, and can use mineral spirits as well to reduce amount of turpentine. We have made numerous concoctions of marine oils with all kinds of stuff in formulations including varnish, pine tar, tung, linseed name it. It all works really, never life tested the batches.

I really like marine oiled finishes especially for work boat type usage. It oxidizes to create hard finish.

The rule of thumb, esp for bright finishes (varnish) is to reapply when you lose 50% of original gloss. Marine oil finish is easy to reapply and you will maybe a couple of times the first year and less frequently later depending on conditions.

mark holden posted 12-21-2006 03:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for mark holden  Send Email to mark holden     
My new boat has teak flooring and seats but there are black adhesive lines between the 1 1/2" slats of teak. How do I handle application and how will the product react on the adhesive and what will it look like when finished? Do I have to (slowly and meticulously) do each slat individually with say a foam brush or can I wipe the entire surface adhesive and all?

Thanks for any insight out there........

vinay posted 12-30-2006 01:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for vinay  Send Email to vinay     
On my sailboat I have lots of wood (too much really) I treated all of it with Interthane, a product of International paint. It is a two parts polyurathane. It has not failed me and this for the last 20 years. I recoat every 4 or 5 years. It is fast drying, easy to apply, and beautiful to look at

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