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Author Topic:   "bayster"-Teleflex steering for 18'

george nagy posted 05-12-2004 10:30 AM ET (US)
I'm looking at replacing the twin cable system on my 18' outrage with a power steering system. I have a late model 150 Johnson and steering is difficult at lower speeds above idle.
I'm looking at the Teleflex front mount system called "baystar" which seems to be a smaller cousin of thier "seastar" system. Thier website calls out that this system is good for engines up to 150 hp. On Surplus Unlimited's website they have it listed for up to 140 hp.
I'm sure the info on the Teleflex site is correct however it doesn't hurt to find out if anyone has installed this system on thier boat.

I have ruled out the side mount system because of how it protrudes out the side of the engine and feel it would get in the way of loading in/out of the stern maybe even getting damaged as a result.

Royce posted 05-12-2004 01:12 PM ET (US)
George- I also have an 18' outrage which I would consider hydraulic steering. I installed the Baystar system on my Montauk with a 70 H.P. and it works great. I have installed the Seastar on a previous Outrage 20 with a 200 hp. and it was clear that the larger Seastar system was the right choice. I am currently installing a Seastar system on my Revenge 22. I think due to the speed acheived with 150 hp on the Outrage 18 that I would opt for the SeaStar system over the Baystar if I switch to hydraulic steering (on the 18). You will love either one!
Royce
tlynch posted 05-12-2004 01:20 PM ET (US)
I had to make the same decision about a year ago as well. I think that the official Teleflex stance on the Baystar is that it is ok for up to 150 HP except for 'high performance' 150 HP motors.
I decided that I would rather be well within the limits for a seastar than on the border with the baystar. I found the prices at surplus unlimited to be the best on the web, and even better than the deals on EBay.
I got the front mount cylinder and I am very happy with it.
Todd
where2 posted 05-12-2004 05:27 PM ET (US)
Having been in touch with Teleflex numerous times in recent weeks, I can tell you lots of things about the Baystar systems:
#1 they are good for 150hp, unless you own a Mercury Optimax 150DFI engine.
#2 kit that most places will sell you is a kit with an HC4600 cylinder designed to use a drag link and fit anything with a standard tilt tube.
#3 if you download the installation instructions, you'll find diagrams of an HC4645 cylinder which really looks like a SeaStar cylinder.
#4 if you ask them what an HC4658 cylinder is, they say it's an HC4645 with the pivot plate reversed (the instructions tell you how to reverse the plate if you bought an HC4645 and needed the HC4658).
#5 If you try to mount an HC4645 or HC4658 to an older (like 1985) Johnson 70Hp engine, it doesn't fit no matter which of the 8 combinations you try. You really should get the kit with the HC4600 and use the drag link setup, or wait until June 21st 2004 when they are supposed to start production of a modified pivot plate which will allow the HC4645 style cylinder to mount to the older engines (no word on what part number this one will carry)
#6 If you need longer hoses, get an HT4425 kit, and don't be surprised when you have to buy your own compression fittings and compression nuts to go on the unfinished end of the hoses. The hose kit is supposedly 30' long each where the stock hoses are 20' long each. The HT4425 hose kit retails for $134.
#7 An HH4015 is the tilt helm version of the HH4016 basic helm pump.
#8 If you break off either of the chrome plated brass "T" fittings at the cylinder, expect it to take 3 weeks to obtain a replacement. The fittings have metric compression nut threads, and cannot be replaced with off the shelf american parts unless you disregard their warning not to modify the manufactured end of the hose. (The compression fittings on the back of the helm use american threads!)
#9 Do what you can to avoid excessive exposure of the baystar hydraulic hoses to sunlight. The local teleflex supplier says it's really the same hose as some of the other stuff he sells by the foot, and it doesn't hold up forever in Florida sunlight.
#10 One advantage of using the HC4600 cylinder is that the cylinder does not move with relation to the engine, so the hoses do not need slack in them as they do with most of the other hydraulic setups (including the HC4645 cylinder).
www.foreandaftmarine.com offers the Baystar kit with the HH4016 and the HC4600 for $499. I've never dealt with them or Surplus Unlimited, so take your pick where you spend your money.
bw12 posted 05-12-2004 07:01 PM ET (US)
FWIW, if you ever plan to use a hydraulic autopilot (HAP) with your hydraulic steering, then the type of rear cylinder (motor end) and helm (steering wheel end) you use does matter. I believe the Seastar Pro helm is not compatible with HAPs, something to do with internal check valves. Also, I believe that only balanced rear cylinders (the kind that move with the motor) are compatible with HAPs, stationary cylinders are not.
jimh posted 05-12-2004 09:13 PM ET (US)
At the Miami Boat Show we saw the Edgewater 18-foot boat with a BayStar steering unit.
I think the standard BayStar unit is a balanced unit. But I don't think too many people with 18-foot boats have auto-pilots on them, so it wouldn't really matter if the BayStar were unbalanced.
The way the thing operates had been a mystery to me until I saw it in person. The mechanism is like a slide trombone. One part is the actuator from the ram, and the second is a slide that runs in and out of the tilt tube.
An alternative installation--but one that would be more expensive--is to use a side mount HC5370 cylinder that threads on the tilt tube, its ram passes through the tilt tube, and connects to the engine drag link. This is an unbalanced system. This unit is rated to 300-HP.
By unbalanced, they mean that it takes slightly more turns in one direction than the other. You don't really notice this in operation, but apparently an auto pilot would get confused by it.
Hydraulic steering is the way to go, and Teleflex (doing business as) BayStar and SeaStar is the best vendor.
dreid posted 05-12-2004 09:23 PM ET (US)
If you plan to continue running a 150 on your Outrage 18', George, pay the extra money for the Seastar center mount system and don't look back. I've never regretted doing so. You'll be amazed at the improvement over your formerly stuck cable system.
David
jimh posted 05-12-2004 09:27 PM ET (US)
I found some pictures I took of that installation. It was with a 115-HP Yamaha four-stroke. The BayStar was a $692 upgrade on the Edgewater-18.
Here is a view that shows how the trombone arrangement works with the drag link and the tilt tube.
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/images/bayStarHydraulicSteering.JPG
George, your nicely restored Outrage 18 deserves hydraulic steering!
george nagy posted 05-13-2004 09:38 AM ET (US)
I'm going to stop by some boat dealers and really look at both systems carefuly before deciding. I'm also trying to think into the future i.e. if I end up repowering this hull again what might be the direction I go-single or twins. It might be prudent to select a unit that suits twin 90's as well as a single.
where2 posted 05-13-2004 12:44 PM ET (US)
The Baystar manual clearly states that it should not be used with twins. On Page 5 of the installation manual it states "Twin engine application not available at this time."
I guess we know what George is buying...
It is interesting to note in the Baystar manual that they state "Due to a small amount of hydraulic slip, a 'Master Spoke' or 'Centered' steering wheel cannot be maintained with a hydraulic steering system. For best results, use an equidistant spoke steering wheel."

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Author	Topic: "bayster"-Teleflex steering for 18'
george nagy	posted 05-12-2004 10:30 AM ET (US) I'm looking at replacing the twin cable system on my 18' outrage with a power steering system. I have a late model 150 Johnson and steering is difficult at lower speeds above idle. I'm looking at the Teleflex front mount system called "baystar" which seems to be a smaller cousin of thier "seastar" system. Thier website calls out that this system is good for engines up to 150 hp. On Surplus Unlimited's website they have it listed for up to 140 hp. I'm sure the info on the Teleflex site is correct however it doesn't hurt to find out if anyone has installed this system on thier boat. I have ruled out the side mount system because of how it protrudes out the side of the engine and feel it would get in the way of loading in/out of the stern maybe even getting damaged as a result.
Royce	posted 05-12-2004 01:12 PM ET (US) George- I also have an 18' outrage which I would consider hydraulic steering. I installed the Baystar system on my Montauk with a 70 H.P. and it works great. I have installed the Seastar on a previous Outrage 20 with a 200 hp. and it was clear that the larger Seastar system was the right choice. I am currently installing a Seastar system on my Revenge 22. I think due to the speed acheived with 150 hp on the Outrage 18 that I would opt for the SeaStar system over the Baystar if I switch to hydraulic steering (on the 18). You will love either one! Royce
tlynch	posted 05-12-2004 01:20 PM ET (US) I had to make the same decision about a year ago as well. I think that the official Teleflex stance on the Baystar is that it is ok for up to 150 HP except for 'high performance' 150 HP motors. I decided that I would rather be well within the limits for a seastar than on the border with the baystar. I found the prices at surplus unlimited to be the best on the web, and even better than the deals on EBay. I got the front mount cylinder and I am very happy with it. Todd
where2	posted 05-12-2004 05:27 PM ET (US) Having been in touch with Teleflex numerous times in recent weeks, I can tell you lots of things about the Baystar systems: #1 they are good for 150hp, unless you own a Mercury Optimax 150DFI engine. #2 kit that most places will sell you is a kit with an HC4600 cylinder designed to use a drag link and fit anything with a standard tilt tube. #3 if you download the installation instructions, you'll find diagrams of an HC4645 cylinder which really looks like a SeaStar cylinder. #4 if you ask them what an HC4658 cylinder is, they say it's an HC4645 with the pivot plate reversed (the instructions tell you how to reverse the plate if you bought an HC4645 and needed the HC4658). #5 If you try to mount an HC4645 or HC4658 to an older (like 1985) Johnson 70Hp engine, it doesn't fit no matter which of the 8 combinations you try. You really should get the kit with the HC4600 and use the drag link setup, or wait until June 21st 2004 when they are supposed to start production of a modified pivot plate which will allow the HC4645 style cylinder to mount to the older engines (no word on what part number this one will carry) #6 If you need longer hoses, get an HT4425 kit, and don't be surprised when you have to buy your own compression fittings and compression nuts to go on the unfinished end of the hoses. The hose kit is supposedly 30' long each where the stock hoses are 20' long each. The HT4425 hose kit retails for $134. #7 An HH4015 is the tilt helm version of the HH4016 basic helm pump. #8 If you break off either of the chrome plated brass "T" fittings at the cylinder, expect it to take 3 weeks to obtain a replacement. The fittings have metric compression nut threads, and cannot be replaced with off the shelf american parts unless you disregard their warning not to modify the manufactured end of the hose. (The compression fittings on the back of the helm use american threads!) #9 Do what you can to avoid excessive exposure of the baystar hydraulic hoses to sunlight. The local teleflex supplier says it's really the same hose as some of the other stuff he sells by the foot, and it doesn't hold up forever in Florida sunlight. #10 One advantage of using the HC4600 cylinder is that the cylinder does not move with relation to the engine, so the hoses do not need slack in them as they do with most of the other hydraulic setups (including the HC4645 cylinder). www.foreandaftmarine.com offers the Baystar kit with the HH4016 and the HC4600 for $499. I've never dealt with them or Surplus Unlimited, so take your pick where you spend your money.
bw12	posted 05-12-2004 07:01 PM ET (US) FWIW, if you ever plan to use a hydraulic autopilot (HAP) with your hydraulic steering, then the type of rear cylinder (motor end) and helm (steering wheel end) you use does matter. I believe the Seastar Pro helm is not compatible with HAPs, something to do with internal check valves. Also, I believe that only balanced rear cylinders (the kind that move with the motor) are compatible with HAPs, stationary cylinders are not.
jimh	posted 05-12-2004 09:13 PM ET (US) At the Miami Boat Show we saw the Edgewater 18-foot boat with a BayStar steering unit. I think the standard BayStar unit is a balanced unit. But I don't think too many people with 18-foot boats have auto-pilots on them, so it wouldn't really matter if the BayStar were unbalanced. The way the thing operates had been a mystery to me until I saw it in person. The mechanism is like a slide trombone. One part is the actuator from the ram, and the second is a slide that runs in and out of the tilt tube. An alternative installation--but one that would be more expensive--is to use a side mount HC5370 cylinder that threads on the tilt tube, its ram passes through the tilt tube, and connects to the engine drag link. This is an unbalanced system. This unit is rated to 300-HP. By unbalanced, they mean that it takes slightly more turns in one direction than the other. You don't really notice this in operation, but apparently an auto pilot would get confused by it. Hydraulic steering is the way to go, and Teleflex (doing business as) BayStar and SeaStar is the best vendor.
dreid	posted 05-12-2004 09:23 PM ET (US) If you plan to continue running a 150 on your Outrage 18', George, pay the extra money for the Seastar center mount system and don't look back. I've never regretted doing so. You'll be amazed at the improvement over your formerly stuck cable system. David
jimh	posted 05-12-2004 09:27 PM ET (US) I found some pictures I took of that installation. It was with a 115-HP Yamaha four-stroke. The BayStar was a $692 upgrade on the Edgewater-18. Here is a view that shows how the trombone arrangement works with the drag link and the tilt tube. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/images/bayStarHydraulicSteering.JPG George, your nicely restored Outrage 18 deserves hydraulic steering!
george nagy	posted 05-13-2004 09:38 AM ET (US) I'm going to stop by some boat dealers and really look at both systems carefuly before deciding. I'm also trying to think into the future i.e. if I end up repowering this hull again what might be the direction I go-single or twins. It might be prudent to select a unit that suits twin 90's as well as a single.
where2	posted 05-13-2004 12:44 PM ET (US) The Baystar manual clearly states that it should not be used with twins. On Page 5 of the installation manual it states "Twin engine application not available at this time." I guess we know what George is buying... It is interesting to note in the Baystar manual that they state "Due to a small amount of hydraulic slip, a 'Master Spoke' or 'Centered' steering wheel cannot be maintained with a hydraulic steering system. For best results, use an equidistant spoke steering wheel."