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Author Topic:   Outrage Gunwale Teak Alternatives

Roarque posted 10-30-2007 09:15 AM ET (US)
Two seasons ago, I stripped the teak on my Outrage 18 and applied ( and applied and applied ) spar varnish to a gloss - the boat looked very nice but then mother nature took over and here I am considering how to bring it back to presentable condition once again.
Alternatives:
1. repeat the past - see above
2. strip the teak to bare wood and apply an oil finish (like SeaFin ) monthly throught its life ( this alternative is starting to make more sense to me after what has happened in the past two seasons )
3. replace the teak with starboard planks ( talk about a lot of work - wow!!)
4. strip the teak to bare wood and allow it to turn to grey wood. What does this really look like? Does the wood crack?
Comments please. Could I ask in advance to not be told that a Mills mooring cover would help solve the problem. I don't need to be told that a cover would help - that's not an option.
Tom W Clark posted 10-30-2007 09:20 AM ET (US)
Sand teak. Wipe on several coats of Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil. Repeat every two or three years.
ModernRocketry posted 10-30-2007 10:23 AM ET (US)
One my big boat I have lots of teak. Most of it is varnished within an inch of its life, but some of it, like steps, I don't varnish because it becomes slippery. It weathers to a silver\gray color. It does not crack at all. There are teak cleaners that you can use to get that nice warm color back, but you need to be careful as it can discolor your paint.
Another option is a product called Bristol. It is a two part varnish alternative. I have never used it, but I know people who have and they swear by it.
I varnish my big boat twice a year and it's killing me.
According to my friends who have used Bristol, every 2-3 years you will need to sand it lightly with steel wool and reapply a couple of coats.
That sounds do-able to me.
prj posted 10-30-2007 10:38 AM ET (US)
Sand the teak, wipe on and hand polish off several coats of Amazon Golden Teak Oil. Repeat light single coat at beginning and end of each season.
Buckda posted 10-30-2007 10:39 AM ET (US)
Roarque -
If your finish is taking that kind of beating (it must be exposed to UV all season long), you should consider a cover for the boat that covers the teak, or consider lightly sanding and adding a thinned "touch up" layer of varnish in the fall right before you winterize.
I add a little varnish every year and it is not a big deal.
Of course, my boat is stored indoors out of the UV - but you should be building up layers every season to protect your wood.
...otherwise you'll need to add oil every few months, if not more often. My boat is indoors and I add oil to the interior wood (which is walked on, and probably gets more wear that way) about 3 times a season.
Dave
andygere posted 10-30-2007 11:43 AM ET (US)
If water has not gotten under the varnish, you may be able to get away with a simple wetsand and a recoat or two. If there are water spots beneath the finish and the varnish is lifting, it needs to come off. You can do this more quickly with the judicious use of a heat gun and a putty knife. grind the corners off the putty knife to avoid gouging the wood, and tape off the rubrail and any exposed gelcoat with a few layers of duct tape to protect them from the heat. Keep the heat gun moving, and avoid the temptation to get it too close to the work. You will see the varnish cloud as the bond is broken with the wood, at which point it can be readily scraped from the teak. This will save you at least $50 in sandpaper and a lot of time. Then sand and oil as Tom and others suggested. An alternative to a mooring cover are some simple gunwale covers. I've seen these on other boats, and they could easily be made by a local canvas shop. Something like that could also be home made (if you can stitch a straight line you could fab up some covers) and they could be removed and stowed in seconds. No drilling is required since they could be attached with some industrial strength sticky back velcro, hidden below the rubrail and underneath the covering boards.
It would look something like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/ Random%20Whaler%20Photos/gunwhalecover.jpg
dfmcintyre posted 10-30-2007 07:34 PM ET (US)
Roarque -
I'd do a combination of what a couple of posters have suggested, strip (heat,chem,sand...your pref) down to bare, and oil once or twice a season. I've always been a fan of varnished teak, others here will verify that.
However....
Where there's a good chance of getting stood on, I'd stay away from a gloss varnish finish. Can get slippery at the wrong moment and too easily scratched.
After oiling, I'd go with a cover, like Andy suggested with either velcro or hidden snaps.
Regards - Don
John W posted 11-04-2007 06:37 PM ET (US)
Varnished teak is less work than oiled teak IF & ONLY IF it is kept covered, out of the sun, when not in use. If the wood will be continuously exposed to the sun, you DO NOT want a varnished finish, unless you plan to sand & re-apply two maintenance coats of varnish every 4 to 6 months. The urethane finishes like Bristol Finish or Honey Teak will be more abraision resistant than single part varnish, and they may (or may not) be easier to apply, but they won't last any longer than a good one-part varnish. The same is true for two-part varnishes...they handle abraision better, but they have the same UV resistance as a good one-part varnish. There is only so much UV inhibitors they can put in a clear finish of any kind, and increasing the thickness of the coating (more coats) is the only way to get more UV protection out of a clear (unpigmented) finish.
Maintaining oiled teak is a real pain in my opinion, much more work than my varnished teak (my boat has both). The oil will not last more than a couple of months or so in tropical latitudes, it can attract dirt, and it will turn black after lengthy UV exposure. This periodically requires teak cleaner and/or sanding, which gradually wears down the wood.
If you go the oiled teak route, my personal experience has been the Starbrite Premium teak oil lasts longer than Amazon and much longer than Daly's Seafin. I was skeptical of the Starbrite, but I read a review in an old "Sailing" magazine that did a long-term comparison of around 20 different teak oils, and the Starbrite Premuim teak oil came out on top (Daly's fared near the bottom in that test). I have used Daly's Seafin as a base for varnishing, and for that purpose it works great, but it is not a long lasting option in my opinion. But the truth is, no teak oil will last very long in an exposed environment, so I'm kind of splitting hairs here.
Here's a pic of my boat right after oiling the wood on the front deck:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/?action=view& current=715a95a3.jpg
And here is the same wood after a couple of months' use with Daly's Seafin teak oil...notice how much it has darkened, despite being kept out of the sun when not in use:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/?action=view& current=9be1c92c.jpg
Obviously, I use teak oil on my front deck wood. But if your wood will be exposed to the sun, I would reccommend cleaning your teak and leaving it bare. It will gradually turn grey/silver. It will require periodic cleaning, but less than an oiled finish will, and without the oil the wood won't turn black after extended sun exposure. This will look MUCH better, and more nautical and original, than a white starboard finish in my opinion. (Also much cheaper than starboard). Letting teak turn grey is a completely acceptable alternative, the wood will not split or crack.
Your final alternative is a pigmented finish such as Cetol or Cetol Light. These are easy to apply and maintain, and will last longer than any approach mentioned earlier. Cetol Light is a very practical alternative for a boat kept in the sun & used hard. But I personally don't like the looks of Cetol products, they have a plastic-looking, orange appearance. But others who aren't so picky and like the look, and it is easier to maintain than anything else.
At this point I would reccommend a cover for your boat, which would save you a lot of maintenance work. But you told us not to suggest that so I won't (kidding). Hope this helps.
John
sternorama posted 11-05-2007 04:48 PM ET (US)
A Mills cover would protect your (sorry, I can't keep a straight face long enough to finish typing this...) ;-)
Buckda posted 11-05-2007 05:30 PM ET (US)
Funny Gary. I was horrified to re-read this thread this afternoon and realize my faux pas above!
Can I ask WHY a mooring cover is not an option?
Personally, I don't like the idea of leaving teak in the sun to weather and gray. I know that lots of old salts do it, but I don't like how it looks (i.e. the boat looks neglected with the wood in that condition). If you aren't going to keep the wood finished, either buy a boat without wood, or replace the wood with another material. I recommend seeing if you can order aluminum gunwale caps from CPD from the 190 Guardian. That would be the ultimate and best solution. Depending on the price quoted to you, you may find a local aluminum fabricator in your area who can do it for less money. Have the aluminum powdercoated to match your gelcoat.
A mooring cover may be more cost-effective in both cases above. There is a good reason why they are in business selling covers..
:)
Good luck.
runpasthefence posted 11-07-2007 08:31 PM ET (US)
Our Outrage is, for the most part, kept in the water. We needed to be able to cover the teak and be able to walk around in the boat for cleaning, tying up, etc.
This is our solution.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/yeahtoast02/18%20Outrage/After/ IMG_0173.jpg]
Eddie Grimball does all of our work here in Charleston, he's a Whaler guy to boot. I think he could reproduce the gunwale covers for $75 a piece if any is interested.

Mick
runpasthefence posted 11-07-2007 08:32 PM ET (US)
As I was...
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v611/yeahtoast02/18%20Outrage/After/ ?action=view¤t=IMG_0173.jpg
andygere posted 11-07-2007 10:25 PM ET (US)
That's what I'm talkin' about! Looks like a good solution.
Roarque posted 11-11-2007 02:00 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the replies - Tom and prj seemed to have the solution that best fits my needs.
When I varnished the gunwales two years ago, they were so slippery that I installed teak slats at key 'step here' locations and Daly-ed them twice a season to look like the varnished teak but the oil finish kept them non slippery. Now I shall just sand the gunwales down to bare wood over the winter and teak oil them in the Spring.
Greg
P.S. I have tried the Bristol products on my mahogany and it works with a mooring cover ( on the Sport 15 lake boat)but it does not work any better than spar varnish on the ocean.

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Author	Topic: Outrage Gunwale Teak Alternatives
Roarque	posted 10-30-2007 09:15 AM ET (US) Two seasons ago, I stripped the teak on my Outrage 18 and applied ( and applied and applied ) spar varnish to a gloss - the boat looked very nice but then mother nature took over and here I am considering how to bring it back to presentable condition once again. Alternatives: 1. repeat the past - see above 2. strip the teak to bare wood and apply an oil finish (like SeaFin ) monthly throught its life ( this alternative is starting to make more sense to me after what has happened in the past two seasons ) 3. replace the teak with starboard planks ( talk about a lot of work - wow!!) 4. strip the teak to bare wood and allow it to turn to grey wood. What does this really look like? Does the wood crack? Comments please. Could I ask in advance to not be told that a Mills mooring cover would help solve the problem. I don't need to be told that a cover would help - that's not an option.
Tom W Clark	posted 10-30-2007 09:20 AM ET (US) Sand teak. Wipe on several coats of Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil. Repeat every two or three years.
ModernRocketry	posted 10-30-2007 10:23 AM ET (US) One my big boat I have lots of teak. Most of it is varnished within an inch of its life, but some of it, like steps, I don't varnish because it becomes slippery. It weathers to a silver\gray color. It does not crack at all. There are teak cleaners that you can use to get that nice warm color back, but you need to be careful as it can discolor your paint. Another option is a product called Bristol. It is a two part varnish alternative. I have never used it, but I know people who have and they swear by it. I varnish my big boat twice a year and it's killing me. According to my friends who have used Bristol, every 2-3 years you will need to sand it lightly with steel wool and reapply a couple of coats. That sounds do-able to me.
prj	posted 10-30-2007 10:38 AM ET (US) Sand the teak, wipe on and hand polish off several coats of Amazon Golden Teak Oil. Repeat light single coat at beginning and end of each season.
Buckda	posted 10-30-2007 10:39 AM ET (US) Roarque - If your finish is taking that kind of beating (it must be exposed to UV all season long), you should consider a cover for the boat that covers the teak, or consider lightly sanding and adding a thinned "touch up" layer of varnish in the fall right before you winterize. I add a little varnish every year and it is not a big deal. Of course, my boat is stored indoors out of the UV - but you should be building up layers every season to protect your wood. ...otherwise you'll need to add oil every few months, if not more often. My boat is indoors and I add oil to the interior wood (which is walked on, and probably gets more wear that way) about 3 times a season. Dave
andygere	posted 10-30-2007 11:43 AM ET (US) If water has not gotten under the varnish, you may be able to get away with a simple wetsand and a recoat or two. If there are water spots beneath the finish and the varnish is lifting, it needs to come off. You can do this more quickly with the judicious use of a heat gun and a putty knife. grind the corners off the putty knife to avoid gouging the wood, and tape off the rubrail and any exposed gelcoat with a few layers of duct tape to protect them from the heat. Keep the heat gun moving, and avoid the temptation to get it too close to the work. You will see the varnish cloud as the bond is broken with the wood, at which point it can be readily scraped from the teak. This will save you at least $50 in sandpaper and a lot of time. Then sand and oil as Tom and others suggested. An alternative to a mooring cover are some simple gunwale covers. I've seen these on other boats, and they could easily be made by a local canvas shop. Something like that could also be home made (if you can stitch a straight line you could fab up some covers) and they could be removed and stowed in seconds. No drilling is required since they could be attached with some industrial strength sticky back velcro, hidden below the rubrail and underneath the covering boards. It would look something like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/andygere/ Random%20Whaler%20Photos/gunwhalecover.jpg
dfmcintyre	posted 10-30-2007 07:34 PM ET (US) Roarque - I'd do a combination of what a couple of posters have suggested, strip (heat,chem,sand...your pref) down to bare, and oil once or twice a season. I've always been a fan of varnished teak, others here will verify that. However.... Where there's a good chance of getting stood on, I'd stay away from a gloss varnish finish. Can get slippery at the wrong moment and too easily scratched. After oiling, I'd go with a cover, like Andy suggested with either velcro or hidden snaps. Regards - Don
John W	posted 11-04-2007 06:37 PM ET (US) Varnished teak is less work than oiled teak IF & ONLY IF it is kept covered, out of the sun, when not in use. If the wood will be continuously exposed to the sun, you DO NOT want a varnished finish, unless you plan to sand & re-apply two maintenance coats of varnish every 4 to 6 months. The urethane finishes like Bristol Finish or Honey Teak will be more abraision resistant than single part varnish, and they may (or may not) be easier to apply, but they won't last any longer than a good one-part varnish. The same is true for two-part varnishes...they handle abraision better, but they have the same UV resistance as a good one-part varnish. There is only so much UV inhibitors they can put in a clear finish of any kind, and increasing the thickness of the coating (more coats) is the only way to get more UV protection out of a clear (unpigmented) finish. Maintaining oiled teak is a real pain in my opinion, much more work than my varnished teak (my boat has both). The oil will not last more than a couple of months or so in tropical latitudes, it can attract dirt, and it will turn black after lengthy UV exposure. This periodically requires teak cleaner and/or sanding, which gradually wears down the wood. If you go the oiled teak route, my personal experience has been the Starbrite Premium teak oil lasts longer than Amazon and much longer than Daly's Seafin. I was skeptical of the Starbrite, but I read a review in an old "Sailing" magazine that did a long-term comparison of around 20 different teak oils, and the Starbrite Premuim teak oil came out on top (Daly's fared near the bottom in that test). I have used Daly's Seafin as a base for varnishing, and for that purpose it works great, but it is not a long lasting option in my opinion. But the truth is, no teak oil will last very long in an exposed environment, so I'm kind of splitting hairs here. Here's a pic of my boat right after oiling the wood on the front deck: http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/?action=view& current=715a95a3.jpg And here is the same wood after a couple of months' use with Daly's Seafin teak oil...notice how much it has darkened, despite being kept out of the sun when not in use: http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/JohnPW/?action=view& current=9be1c92c.jpg Obviously, I use teak oil on my front deck wood. But if your wood will be exposed to the sun, I would reccommend cleaning your teak and leaving it bare. It will gradually turn grey/silver. It will require periodic cleaning, but less than an oiled finish will, and without the oil the wood won't turn black after extended sun exposure. This will look MUCH better, and more nautical and original, than a white starboard finish in my opinion. (Also much cheaper than starboard). Letting teak turn grey is a completely acceptable alternative, the wood will not split or crack. Your final alternative is a pigmented finish such as Cetol or Cetol Light. These are easy to apply and maintain, and will last longer than any approach mentioned earlier. Cetol Light is a very practical alternative for a boat kept in the sun & used hard. But I personally don't like the looks of Cetol products, they have a plastic-looking, orange appearance. But others who aren't so picky and like the look, and it is easier to maintain than anything else. At this point I would reccommend a cover for your boat, which would save you a lot of maintenance work. But you told us not to suggest that so I won't (kidding). Hope this helps. John
sternorama	posted 11-05-2007 04:48 PM ET (US) A Mills cover would protect your (sorry, I can't keep a straight face long enough to finish typing this...) ;-)
Buckda	posted 11-05-2007 05:30 PM ET (US) Funny Gary. I was horrified to re-read this thread this afternoon and realize my faux pas above! Can I ask WHY a mooring cover is not an option? Personally, I don't like the idea of leaving teak in the sun to weather and gray. I know that lots of old salts do it, but I don't like how it looks (i.e. the boat looks neglected with the wood in that condition). If you aren't going to keep the wood finished, either buy a boat without wood, or replace the wood with another material. I recommend seeing if you can order aluminum gunwale caps from CPD from the 190 Guardian. That would be the ultimate and best solution. Depending on the price quoted to you, you may find a local aluminum fabricator in your area who can do it for less money. Have the aluminum powdercoated to match your gelcoat. A mooring cover may be more cost-effective in both cases above. There is a good reason why they are in business selling covers.. :) Good luck.
runpasthefence	posted 11-07-2007 08:31 PM ET (US) Our Outrage is, for the most part, kept in the water. We needed to be able to cover the teak and be able to walk around in the boat for cleaning, tying up, etc. This is our solution. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/yeahtoast02/18%20Outrage/After/ IMG_0173.jpg] Eddie Grimball does all of our work here in Charleston, he's a Whaler guy to boot. I think he could reproduce the gunwale covers for $75 a piece if any is interested. Mick
runpasthefence	posted 11-07-2007 08:32 PM ET (US) As I was... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v611/yeahtoast02/18%20Outrage/After/ ?action=view¤t=IMG_0173.jpg
andygere	posted 11-07-2007 10:25 PM ET (US) That's what I'm talkin' about! Looks like a good solution.
Roarque	posted 11-11-2007 02:00 PM ET (US) Thanks for the replies - Tom and prj seemed to have the solution that best fits my needs. When I varnished the gunwales two years ago, they were so slippery that I installed teak slats at key 'step here' locations and Daly-ed them twice a season to look like the varnished teak but the oil finish kept them non slippery. Now I shall just sand the gunwales down to bare wood over the winter and teak oil them in the Spring. Greg P.S. I have tried the Bristol products on my mahogany and it works with a mooring cover ( on the Sport 15 lake boat)but it does not work any better than spar varnish on the ocean.