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Author Topic:   Large wattage speakers

jamesmylesmcp posted 12-15-2008 03:50 PM ET (US)
I know many are apposed to to stereos aboard, anyways I have a 1000w amplifier hidden away and need new speakers, Currently the stereo is in a housing attached to the amplifer feeding the speakers,2 inside the console and 2 under the bow attached to wood glued to the hull. I can't seem to find any manufacturer producing marine speakers pushing 250 watts or above. Last summer we ran 50 watt speakers in the console with premade speaker boxes containing 150 watt speakers with base up front. The current setup drowns engine sound but the amplifier can handle more output.Currently we have the foward speakers mounted for removal to light up any beach we desire.
glen e posted 12-15-2008 04:08 PM ET (US)
Post the model and mfr of your amp. I doubt it's 1000 watts of real power (RMS). JL audio 7.7 's will take mostly every amp I've ever seen and they are good for 75 RMS each.
jamesmylesmcp posted 12-15-2008 05:15 PM ET (US)
Pyle model #PLMRA420. 1000 watts.
jamesmylesmcp posted 12-15-2008 05:44 PM ET (US)
Glen, Thanks, but I am seeking information/advice from owners of Classic Boston Whaler boats.
glen e posted 12-15-2008 05:54 PM ET (US)
sure - it has a lot to do with whaler boats...
glen e posted 12-15-2008 06:06 PM ET (US)
I'll tell you anyway. You can put it with any speaker as it's a junk 1000 watt "music power" rating. In true RMS power it's 35 watts x 4, or about what a good head unit puts out itself. Good luck. I suggest some Infinity kappas to handle 'all that power".
http://www.retrevo.com/search?q=Pyle+PLMRA420&rt=sp
jamesmylesmcp posted 12-15-2008 08:10 PM ET (US)
Typical glen e response........I'd expect no more. Why does a non-Whaler owner continue to troll this site ?
seasaw posted 12-15-2008 08:34 PM ET (US)
try www.crutchfield.com they have been in business a long time and I am sure they could help or steer you in a direction
Jeff
glen e posted 12-15-2008 08:37 PM ET (US)
No troll and totally the truth. Ask yourself why your amp sells for less than $100.00 MSRP....and I don't post for you..but to keep someone else from buying a substandard product and thinking they got "big power".
Have a good holiday.
Chuck Tribolet posted 12-15-2008 09:45 PM ET (US)
1000 watts on the water? Where's that Stinger with a
sound-seeker head? DON'T SHARE YOUR MUSIC WITH OTHER BOATS!

Chuck
jimh posted 12-15-2008 11:39 PM ET (US)
The gold standard for audio power measurement is the continuous RMS power into 8-ohms, both (or all) channels driven at the same time and same level. A frequency and total harmonic distortion figure must be given. Typically a frequency between 100 and 1,000-Hz is used, and the distortion must be below 1-percent or less.
If you have an audio amplifier that can run off 12-volts and can produce 1,000-Watts of RMS audio power into an 8-ohm load, it must be a beast.
There is a fundamental problem in 12-volt audio power amplifiers: the voltage swing available at the output. If there is a maximum of 0 to 12-volts in the audio output, this means the peak-to-peak voltage can only be 12-volts. The relationship between peak-to-peak and RMS in a sinusoidal AC waveform is 2.8:1. This means that if peak-to-peak is limited to 12-volts, the RMS voltage is limited to 12/2.8 = 4.2-volts.
Power, voltage, and resistance are related by
P = E^2/R
thus in a system using 8-ohm speakers
Power = 4.2^2 / 8
Power = 2.3 watts RMS into 8-ohms
Audio amplifiers whose primary power supply is 12-volts generally have to employ some sort of DC-to-DC convertor to increase the voltage available at their output stage in order to drive 8-ohm loudspeakers to high power.
If the loudspeaker impedance is reduced to 4-ohms, the same amplifier can supply
Power = 4.2^2 / 4
Power = 4.6-watts RMS into 4-ohms
This accounts for the very prevalent use of 4-ohm speaker systems in situations where the primary DC voltage available is only 12-volts.
If we wire four standard batteries in series to get 48-volts we can get some real power, about 75-watts RMS into 4-ohms.
To make 1,000-watts across 4-ohms we need an RMS voltage of
Voltage = (P x R)^0.5
Voltage = (1000 x 4)^0.5
Voltage = 63.24-Volts RMS
This implies a peak-to-peak voltage of 2.8 times greater, or 177-volts.
By the way, we should assume a total efficiency of the audio amplifier to be perhaps 60-percent, as we have to allow for some loss in the DC-to-DC conversion needed to step up the battery voltage as well as some inefficiency in the audio amplifier. This implies that the current drain off the 12-volt bus for 1,000-watts of RMS audio power will be substantial:
Current = P/12 = 1,000/12 = 83.3-amperes/.60 = 138-amperes.
Running that 1,000-watt audio amplifier off a 12-volt source is going to take some darn big battery cables, not to mention a battery with some significant ampere-hour capacity.
AZdave posted 12-16-2008 01:34 AM ET (US)
I think glen e has a point. The Pyle site lists RMS power as 75 W/channel into 4 ohms. The spec would be about half of that into 8 ohms. Don't worry too much about the specified power capacity of speakers. If you want to have a high power rating you just make the speaker inefficient. Some years ago I read a pithy review that suggested that speakers were about reproducing sound. Speakers with extreme power handling capabilities were better used as space heaters. In addition, the dB scale is a log scale. In order to make music sound twice as loud the power must be increased by a factor of ten. Enjoy your music at moderate levels and us old guys will be happy. Dave
glen e posted 12-16-2008 06:53 AM ET (US)
And sorry, but this troll" thing pi$$es me off. I don't roamm this site looking for things to comment on , and rarely go outside the verado posts and only then when someone is manufacturing data on them, or someone needs help. So keep the sanctimonius comments to yourself. One of my other areas of expertise is marine audio and it is now my profession. I can't (or won't) do a written lecture on how to build an amp like Jim will do, but when I see crap, I'll comment. If Pyle is selling a 1000 watt amp for 100 bucks, they would have the lock on marine audio. I have the best amp I can find for my midrange - the JL MHD 600/4 which is 150 RMS x 4 (class D) and a Subwoofer amp of 240 watts. Those amps cost about $1200 total. So the Pyle is a "pile" so to speak.
So as I said James, have a good holiday. You might want to ask for a big boy's amp for xmas and install this item in your golf cart.
Dan posted 12-16-2008 08:28 AM ET (US)
I've been very happy with my two bullet-shaped Pyle speakers. I think they're 160 watts, and they're designed for wakeboarder boats in that they mount to a large tube. I used two fishing rod holders secured to my port and starboard bow rails, near the bottom. The speakers are pointed towards the console. It's a lot of fun. I have an amp mounted in the console. I also have two speakers mounted in the console. These speakers don't contribute that much. Oh, I put the speaker wires under the rub rail. It was really simple and can be easily removed in the future. I went many years without tunes on the water. I thought it would detract from the nature experience. But, as I boat alone very often, it's nice to have the entertainment. And any song you really like sounds better on a Montauk.
andygere posted 12-16-2008 11:30 AM ET (US)
I've got four of the these Boston Acoustics loudspeakers and highly recommend them. The sound is simply outstanding, and they have withstood the elements for many years. I can't speak to the match between your amplifier and what they can handle, but if you are looking for excellent sound and volume, with superior durability, they are tough to beat.
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ Voyager-6-Outdoor-Loudspeakers-1-pair-P90.aspx
BQUICK posted 12-16-2008 12:09 PM ET (US)
Distortion is a big issue with cheap "high power" amps. No point in having high power if distortion is 1% or greater.
Most of the cheap amps don't even reveal the distortion specs. I like to see .1% or less. I built a SWT amp that has .01%. LOUD is beautiful.....if it is clean.
25W RMS of clean low distortion will sound better than 200 watts of trash......
BQUICK posted 12-16-2008 12:12 PM ET (US)
That PYLE PLMRA420 is good at .04% THD.........
Taylor posted 12-16-2008 02:12 PM ET (US)
Typical JimH response, with all those pesky facts and laws of physics and such. Why should we care about objective measurements? I'm pretty sure that the those facts and laws don't apply to Pyle amplifiers which clearly operate in some kind of alternate universe where total harmonic distortion is measured differently, if at all.
jimh posted 12-17-2008 12:10 AM ET (US)
Low total harmonic distortion (THD) measurements which are made at a single frequency using a sinusoidal waveform often are misleading when the amplifier has a lot of negative feedback in its circuitry. Negative feedback (in which a portion of the output voltage is inverted and fed back as part of the input to help cancel out any distortion) is great for reducing the measured THD at a single frequency and at a steady state, but high negative feedback in an audio amplifier often introduces other artifacts, particularly when complex and highly transient musical material is to be amplified. Many audio enthusiasts eschew amplifiers with high negative feedback circuitry.
But then again, critical audio reproduction on a boat is something of an oxymoron. I do have to say that last time I was out for a ride on Glen's boat his audio system sounded darn good--for a boat.
By the way, as I am writing this I am listening to Bach's Christmas Oratorio on a modest stereo system. I have also spent the past 30 years recording, mixing, and producing professional audio for broadcasting, so I figure I have a little background in the subject.
number9 posted 12-17-2008 01:14 PM ET (US)
Please remember those on your boat who may have sensitive hearing and those in nature who may enjoy the sounds of nature.
Please don't take offence to my remark, it's just meant as a reminder to all of us. Most of us probably already have the utmost respect for others but you never know who may goggle boat speakers.
Believe it or not, after turning wrenches/avionic work on big ol' jetliners since 1979 my hearing is very sensitive. So remember to take along your ear plugs next time attending a rock concert, going to a movie, etc.
Take care,
Bill
Bella con23 posted 12-17-2008 01:54 PM ET (US)
One more note. Be sure to have the polarity of the speaker wiring rung out properly. This is important to keep the audio in phase.
I have two cut-in 5-1/2" speakers in my cockpit and the driver side had a lower audio output then that of the passenger side. I had attributed this to the proximity of the speakers until I removed the speaker on the driver side and discovered that the positive wire was connected to the negative terminal.
Joe

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Author	Topic: Large wattage speakers
jamesmylesmcp	posted 12-15-2008 03:50 PM ET (US) I know many are apposed to to stereos aboard, anyways I have a 1000w amplifier hidden away and need new speakers, Currently the stereo is in a housing attached to the amplifer feeding the speakers,2 inside the console and 2 under the bow attached to wood glued to the hull. I can't seem to find any manufacturer producing marine speakers pushing 250 watts or above. Last summer we ran 50 watt speakers in the console with premade speaker boxes containing 150 watt speakers with base up front. The current setup drowns engine sound but the amplifier can handle more output.Currently we have the foward speakers mounted for removal to light up any beach we desire.
glen e	posted 12-15-2008 04:08 PM ET (US) Post the model and mfr of your amp. I doubt it's 1000 watts of real power (RMS). JL audio 7.7 's will take mostly every amp I've ever seen and they are good for 75 RMS each.
jamesmylesmcp	posted 12-15-2008 05:15 PM ET (US) Pyle model #PLMRA420. 1000 watts.
jamesmylesmcp	posted 12-15-2008 05:44 PM ET (US) Glen, Thanks, but I am seeking information/advice from owners of Classic Boston Whaler boats.
glen e	posted 12-15-2008 05:54 PM ET (US) sure - it has a lot to do with whaler boats...
glen e	posted 12-15-2008 06:06 PM ET (US) I'll tell you anyway. You can put it with any speaker as it's a junk 1000 watt "music power" rating. In true RMS power it's 35 watts x 4, or about what a good head unit puts out itself. Good luck. I suggest some Infinity kappas to handle 'all that power". http://www.retrevo.com/search?q=Pyle+PLMRA420&rt=sp
jamesmylesmcp	posted 12-15-2008 08:10 PM ET (US) Typical glen e response........I'd expect no more. Why does a non-Whaler owner continue to troll this site ?
seasaw	posted 12-15-2008 08:34 PM ET (US) try www.crutchfield.com they have been in business a long time and I am sure they could help or steer you in a direction Jeff
glen e	posted 12-15-2008 08:37 PM ET (US) No troll and totally the truth. Ask yourself why your amp sells for less than $100.00 MSRP....and I don't post for you..but to keep someone else from buying a substandard product and thinking they got "big power". Have a good holiday.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 12-15-2008 09:45 PM ET (US) 1000 watts on the water? Where's that Stinger with a sound-seeker head? DON'T SHARE YOUR MUSIC WITH OTHER BOATS! Chuck
jimh	posted 12-15-2008 11:39 PM ET (US) The gold standard for audio power measurement is the continuous RMS power into 8-ohms, both (or all) channels driven at the same time and same level. A frequency and total harmonic distortion figure must be given. Typically a frequency between 100 and 1,000-Hz is used, and the distortion must be below 1-percent or less. If you have an audio amplifier that can run off 12-volts and can produce 1,000-Watts of RMS audio power into an 8-ohm load, it must be a beast. There is a fundamental problem in 12-volt audio power amplifiers: the voltage swing available at the output. If there is a maximum of 0 to 12-volts in the audio output, this means the peak-to-peak voltage can only be 12-volts. The relationship between peak-to-peak and RMS in a sinusoidal AC waveform is 2.8:1. This means that if peak-to-peak is limited to 12-volts, the RMS voltage is limited to 12/2.8 = 4.2-volts. Power, voltage, and resistance are related by P = E^2/R thus in a system using 8-ohm speakers Power = 4.2^2 / 8 Power = 2.3 watts RMS into 8-ohms Audio amplifiers whose primary power supply is 12-volts generally have to employ some sort of DC-to-DC convertor to increase the voltage available at their output stage in order to drive 8-ohm loudspeakers to high power. If the loudspeaker impedance is reduced to 4-ohms, the same amplifier can supply Power = 4.2^2 / 4 Power = 4.6-watts RMS into 4-ohms This accounts for the very prevalent use of 4-ohm speaker systems in situations where the primary DC voltage available is only 12-volts. If we wire four standard batteries in series to get 48-volts we can get some real power, about 75-watts RMS into 4-ohms. To make 1,000-watts across 4-ohms we need an RMS voltage of Voltage = (P x R)^0.5 Voltage = (1000 x 4)^0.5 Voltage = 63.24-Volts RMS This implies a peak-to-peak voltage of 2.8 times greater, or 177-volts. By the way, we should assume a total efficiency of the audio amplifier to be perhaps 60-percent, as we have to allow for some loss in the DC-to-DC conversion needed to step up the battery voltage as well as some inefficiency in the audio amplifier. This implies that the current drain off the 12-volt bus for 1,000-watts of RMS audio power will be substantial: Current = P/12 = 1,000/12 = 83.3-amperes/.60 = 138-amperes. Running that 1,000-watt audio amplifier off a 12-volt source is going to take some darn big battery cables, not to mention a battery with some significant ampere-hour capacity.
AZdave	posted 12-16-2008 01:34 AM ET (US) I think glen e has a point. The Pyle site lists RMS power as 75 W/channel into 4 ohms. The spec would be about half of that into 8 ohms. Don't worry too much about the specified power capacity of speakers. If you want to have a high power rating you just make the speaker inefficient. Some years ago I read a pithy review that suggested that speakers were about reproducing sound. Speakers with extreme power handling capabilities were better used as space heaters. In addition, the dB scale is a log scale. In order to make music sound twice as loud the power must be increased by a factor of ten. Enjoy your music at moderate levels and us old guys will be happy. Dave
glen e	posted 12-16-2008 06:53 AM ET (US) And sorry, but this troll" thing pi$$es me off. I don't roamm this site looking for things to comment on , and rarely go outside the verado posts and only then when someone is manufacturing data on them, or someone needs help. So keep the sanctimonius comments to yourself. One of my other areas of expertise is marine audio and it is now my profession. I can't (or won't) do a written lecture on how to build an amp like Jim will do, but when I see crap, I'll comment. If Pyle is selling a 1000 watt amp for 100 bucks, they would have the lock on marine audio. I have the best amp I can find for my midrange - the JL MHD 600/4 which is 150 RMS x 4 (class D) and a Subwoofer amp of 240 watts. Those amps cost about $1200 total. So the Pyle is a "pile" so to speak. So as I said James, have a good holiday. You might want to ask for a big boy's amp for xmas and install this item in your golf cart.
Dan	posted 12-16-2008 08:28 AM ET (US) I've been very happy with my two bullet-shaped Pyle speakers. I think they're 160 watts, and they're designed for wakeboarder boats in that they mount to a large tube. I used two fishing rod holders secured to my port and starboard bow rails, near the bottom. The speakers are pointed towards the console. It's a lot of fun. I have an amp mounted in the console. I also have two speakers mounted in the console. These speakers don't contribute that much. Oh, I put the speaker wires under the rub rail. It was really simple and can be easily removed in the future. I went many years without tunes on the water. I thought it would detract from the nature experience. But, as I boat alone very often, it's nice to have the entertainment. And any song you really like sounds better on a Montauk.
andygere	posted 12-16-2008 11:30 AM ET (US) I've got four of the these Boston Acoustics loudspeakers and highly recommend them. The sound is simply outstanding, and they have withstood the elements for many years. I can't speak to the match between your amplifier and what they can handle, but if you are looking for excellent sound and volume, with superior durability, they are tough to beat. http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ Voyager-6-Outdoor-Loudspeakers-1-pair-P90.aspx
BQUICK	posted 12-16-2008 12:09 PM ET (US) Distortion is a big issue with cheap "high power" amps. No point in having high power if distortion is 1% or greater. Most of the cheap amps don't even reveal the distortion specs. I like to see .1% or less. I built a SWT amp that has .01%. LOUD is beautiful.....if it is clean. 25W RMS of clean low distortion will sound better than 200 watts of trash......
BQUICK	posted 12-16-2008 12:12 PM ET (US) That PYLE PLMRA420 is good at .04% THD.........
Taylor	posted 12-16-2008 02:12 PM ET (US) Typical JimH response, with all those pesky facts and laws of physics and such. Why should we care about objective measurements? I'm pretty sure that the those facts and laws don't apply to Pyle amplifiers which clearly operate in some kind of alternate universe where total harmonic distortion is measured differently, if at all.
jimh	posted 12-17-2008 12:10 AM ET (US) Low total harmonic distortion (THD) measurements which are made at a single frequency using a sinusoidal waveform often are misleading when the amplifier has a lot of negative feedback in its circuitry. Negative feedback (in which a portion of the output voltage is inverted and fed back as part of the input to help cancel out any distortion) is great for reducing the measured THD at a single frequency and at a steady state, but high negative feedback in an audio amplifier often introduces other artifacts, particularly when complex and highly transient musical material is to be amplified. Many audio enthusiasts eschew amplifiers with high negative feedback circuitry. But then again, critical audio reproduction on a boat is something of an oxymoron. I do have to say that last time I was out for a ride on Glen's boat his audio system sounded darn good--for a boat. By the way, as I am writing this I am listening to Bach's Christmas Oratorio on a modest stereo system. I have also spent the past 30 years recording, mixing, and producing professional audio for broadcasting, so I figure I have a little background in the subject.
number9	posted 12-17-2008 01:14 PM ET (US) Please remember those on your boat who may have sensitive hearing and those in nature who may enjoy the sounds of nature. Please don't take offence to my remark, it's just meant as a reminder to all of us. Most of us probably already have the utmost respect for others but you never know who may goggle boat speakers. Believe it or not, after turning wrenches/avionic work on big ol' jetliners since 1979 my hearing is very sensitive. So remember to take along your ear plugs next time attending a rock concert, going to a movie, etc. Take care, Bill
Bella con23	posted 12-17-2008 01:54 PM ET (US) One more note. Be sure to have the polarity of the speaker wiring rung out properly. This is important to keep the audio in phase. I have two cut-in 5-1/2" speakers in my cockpit and the driver side had a lower audio output then that of the passenger side. I had attributed this to the proximity of the speakers until I removed the speaker on the driver side and discovered that the positive wire was connected to the negative terminal. Joe