Household Silicone Caulk for Bedding Fasteners

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Author Topic:   Household Silicone Caulk for Bedding Fasteners

tedious posted 04-24-2009 09:44 AM ET (US)
Can I anticipate any problems using your basic household silicone caulk for bedding screws? Previous owner had a couple of holes in the transom for a sonar transducer, and although I have nothing to put in them now, I might buy a fishfinder eventually. So for now I am thinking of filling them with silicone caulk, then putting in a screw and washer. The marine store is farther away than I want to go - is household silicone caulk all that different than the marine stuff?
Tim
dscew posted 04-24-2009 09:55 AM ET (US)
Silicone is not recommended for this kind of work. Most folks use Boat Life caulk or its equilavent, some also us 3M 4200. My opinion only...
dscew posted 04-24-2009 10:23 AM ET (US)
Here is a quote from jimh's excellent article on transducer mounting in the refernce section: "When drilling holes for mounting, be sure to use a good sealant to prevent any water from entering the interior of the hull. Use stainless steel screws, and bed the screws with bedding compound like Bostik 920, Boat-Life Caulk, 3M-4200, or a similar product. Be certain to make the mounting screws water-tight. They will be immersed whenever your boat is in the water. The last thing you want is water leaking into the transom to rot any wood embedded there."
tedious posted 04-24-2009 11:28 AM ET (US)
I do have a tube of 4200, but the stuff is so thick it's hard to get into the holes - I was looking for something easier to use.
Tim
alfa posted 04-24-2009 12:02 PM ET (US)
You have to buy a new one. The one you have is out of order.
Newtauk1 posted 04-25-2009 12:41 AM ET (US)
Use the 4200. If the top is clogged poke a hole in the side and squeeze out. First use a small nail to push the 4200 into the holes. Then smear the screws(SS) with 4200 and screw in. No washers are needed.
maverick posted 04-25-2009 06:41 AM ET (US)
why not 100% silicone? I've been using for years, never had a problem that I know of. Mav
Newtauk1 posted 04-25-2009 08:35 AM ET (US)
Use some Scotch tape while you are at it.
dscew posted 04-25-2009 09:14 AM ET (US)
What I've heard about silicone is that water can get behind it since it doesn't have any adhesive qualities. It doesn't really stick to anything.
jimh posted 04-25-2009 09:42 AM ET (US)
Some sealers used for household applications have a tendency to create acetic acid during curing. I would not want to use metal fasteners with a compound that had an acid. A little acetic acid may not harm bathroom ceramic tile, but it can't be good for metal fasteners.
TransAm posted 04-26-2009 08:11 AM ET (US)
A good brand of 100% silicone sealant will work fine for bedding screws. Many of these products are formulated for outdoor use and have a 50+ year warranty. Since in this case, the question is whether it can be used as bedding for screws, there wold be no need for an adhesive quality, although most contain this feature. GE Silicone II window and door sealant, for instance, is good for indoor or outdoor use, is mold/mildew resistant, wont shrink or crack, is water tight and remains permanently flexible. As a builder, I can attest to these time tested characteristics and often use leftover jobsite material for applications on my Whaler. Because the labeling will not contain the words "Marine", these products will usually cost less than half of what products labeled "Marine" will cost and in many cased perform the same function. Inexpensive indoor bathroom caulk would not be a good choice however.
Newtauk1 posted 04-26-2009 10:31 AM ET (US)
Quote from manufacturer a popular household of silicone,
"Also use on RVs & boats above water line"
The poster needs to use this BELOW the water line.
R T M posted 04-26-2009 12:38 PM ET (US)
[As a builder, I can attest to these time tested characteristics and often use leftover jobsite material for applications on my Whaler.]
Hey TA, have you found any use for leftover, asphalt roof cement, or a half used roll of duct tape. Maybe a half gallon of interior latex paint that almost matches Desert Tan. LOL
Don`t be a cheap skate buy the right stuff for your Whaler. I hope others don`t take you seriously, and make a mess of their boats.
rich/Binkie
TransAm posted 04-26-2009 01:13 PM ET (US)
Hey rich, I just happened to be over at a neighborhood I built 15 years ago at a 40th birthday party; used hardi-plank siding that was caulked with "Household silicon". This stuff looked practically brand new, along with the paint that was applied over it. If it can survive 15 years in a wooded environment full of tree sap, mildew, sun...you name it, I think it would hold up to a 3/16" screw hole with a washer and screw on top of it. In fact, I'll bet even without any silicon adhesive water would not penetrate a washer and a screw snugged tightly. Have the folks at the home take your bib off and wipe your mouth now. Time for afternoon shuffleboard?
TransAm posted 04-26-2009 02:50 PM ET (US)
Binkie says:

quote:
Don`t be a cheap skate buy the right stuff for your Whaler.
Aren't you the one who made a transom mounting bracket for a motor out of a biodegradable material prone to rot when placed in marine environments, mainly wood? How many boats builders these days are building outboard mounting brackets out of wood? Talk about cheapskate. Sorry to interrupt shuffleboard. Hope you're kicking Mrs. Haveskamps butt! LOL
R T M posted 04-26-2009 02:58 PM ET (US)
Hardi-plank is a concrete like material. Will never rot, guaranteed for 50 years. I installed many squares myself. Its very heavy (the 4x8s). You probably never touched it yourself. If you caulked with silicone (amatuar job) probably the siding underneath is rotting by now, but who cares, right, you got paid. LOL
rich/Binkie
BTW shuffleboard was canceled today. The other team was all in wheelchairs, and our team though they had an unfair advantage.
R T M posted 04-26-2009 03:10 PM ET (US)
TA
I think the mahogany motor board on my setback bracket and my kicker bracket will rot just about as fast as the custom mahogany interior. BTW thanks for the opportunity to post a picture of the Sweeet 13.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/ Whaler%20with%20Mercury/WHALER3.jpg

rich/Binkie
Nauti Tauk posted 04-26-2009 03:23 PM ET (US)
You guys act like a bunch of third graders sometimes but I tell you what, that's a nice looking 13 Rich and I'd be willing to take my chances with the wood!
R T M posted 04-26-2009 04:47 PM ET (US)
Life shouldn`t be so serious, I think we both are just kidding around, but I do take my shuffleboard competition serious. As there is no testing, most of us take steroids,
but Mrs. Havescamps, the captain of the Shady Hills Rest Home shuffleboard team is suspicious as we almost beat them last week. That's what life is all about, Whalering, and shuffleboarding. And getting to the restaurant in time for the early bird special.
rich/Binkie
TransAm posted 04-26-2009 04:58 PM ET (US)
To again address tedious' question, If you are going to install a screw and washer to temporarily fill a very small hole in the transom, you could use a wad a chewing-gum and be ok if you want. If you are looking for a permanent fix, use some thickened epoxy or Evercoat formula 27.
P.S. Binks, there no way you could have installed Hardi...they didn't have it back in the early part of the 20th century.
acseatsri posted 04-26-2009 04:59 PM ET (US)
The previous owner of my Outrage caulked a thru-hull fitting with silicone. When I looked into it, the silicone was nothing but a gooey material that I could wipe off with my finger. I ended up removing it and re-caulking it with 5200, as I use on ANYTHING which will normally be submerged and is intended to be permanent. You want an ADHESIVE sealant so that it will stick to and seal the intended surfaces.
There's a reason that that 4200/5200 have notes on the tubes specifying for use above/below the waterline and silicones don't.
Re your decking- all that is subjected to is getting wet for short periods of time, not submerged.
R T M posted 04-26-2009 06:06 PM ET (US)
Thats the problem. Unknowing people use the wrong material, and then someone else has to deal with it down the road. If our going to install a thru-hull fitting use 4200 and the job is done forever.
BTW TA, myself and a helper installed about 50 Hardi-board panels on a motel after we removed the rotted reverse board and batten. That was no fun job. That was in the '90's.
maverick posted 04-27-2009 09:21 PM ET (US)
Perhaps someone should do a study on this, and place 2 beads of each type caulk (4 samples) on a brick, for example. Let all 4 samples cure equally, and submerge a high dollar bead brand, and a low dollar 100% silicone in water for a few weeks. Leave the other 2 beads out of the water as controls and for comparison. Would be interesting to see the results. Wonder if a couple weeks would be ample test time? Mav
acseatsri posted 04-28-2009 05:56 PM ET (US)
You don't think the manufacturers have done this testing to determine the suitability of their products?
Think about this:
If your boat wasn't an unsinkable Whaler, would you take a chance using the silicone on a fitting that was submerged and could sink your boat if it leaked? Is it worth saving a $5 bill to possibly have water intrusion into your hull or rotting your transom?

I was having a conversation with someone at work who is slipping his boat (not a Whaler). He's worried about the bilge pump if the battery goes dead. Without thinking, I nonchalantly told him to "just pull the plug like I do".
TransAm posted 05-06-2009 07:53 AM ET (US)
For what it's worth, I was in Home Depot the other day and came across a tube of aquarium sealant...100% silicone. It would seem to me to be pretty important that 100% silicone sealant be pretty water tight for aquarium application.
PeteB88 posted 05-06-2009 10:55 AM ET (US)
Wood is a superb material for boat building and use in marine environment. Proper application for the job, selection of material and finishing techniques and materials is critical - and easy. Rich knows what he is talking about and has spent a considerable time, like many of us, with valuable information to help Whaler owners with their projects. Respect the wood.
I totally agree silicone is generally a mistake for Whalers. I spent a lot of time digging it out of my 11.5. I followed the WEST Systems procedure with a bent nail and drill motor to prepare the holes for epoxy injection (to fill old holes, not bed screws) and it worked great.
What about epoxy? or 5200? Is 4200 preferred over 5200?
Jim is correct, years ago I had a boss who worked with or was familiar with the original silicone caulk development team way back. When it came out and for many years it was referred to as RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanizing. I recall he said the vinegar smell is a product of the reaction.

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Author	Topic: Household Silicone Caulk for Bedding Fasteners
tedious	posted 04-24-2009 09:44 AM ET (US) Can I anticipate any problems using your basic household silicone caulk for bedding screws? Previous owner had a couple of holes in the transom for a sonar transducer, and although I have nothing to put in them now, I might buy a fishfinder eventually. So for now I am thinking of filling them with silicone caulk, then putting in a screw and washer. The marine store is farther away than I want to go - is household silicone caulk all that different than the marine stuff? Tim
dscew	posted 04-24-2009 09:55 AM ET (US) Silicone is not recommended for this kind of work. Most folks use Boat Life caulk or its equilavent, some also us 3M 4200. My opinion only...
dscew	posted 04-24-2009 10:23 AM ET (US) Here is a quote from jimh's excellent article on transducer mounting in the refernce section: "When drilling holes for mounting, be sure to use a good sealant to prevent any water from entering the interior of the hull. Use stainless steel screws, and bed the screws with bedding compound like Bostik 920, Boat-Life Caulk, 3M-4200, or a similar product. Be certain to make the mounting screws water-tight. They will be immersed whenever your boat is in the water. The last thing you want is water leaking into the transom to rot any wood embedded there."
tedious	posted 04-24-2009 11:28 AM ET (US) I do have a tube of 4200, but the stuff is so thick it's hard to get into the holes - I was looking for something easier to use. Tim
alfa	posted 04-24-2009 12:02 PM ET (US) You have to buy a new one. The one you have is out of order.
Newtauk1	posted 04-25-2009 12:41 AM ET (US) Use the 4200. If the top is clogged poke a hole in the side and squeeze out. First use a small nail to push the 4200 into the holes. Then smear the screws(SS) with 4200 and screw in. No washers are needed.
maverick	posted 04-25-2009 06:41 AM ET (US) why not 100% silicone? I've been using for years, never had a problem that I know of. Mav
Newtauk1	posted 04-25-2009 08:35 AM ET (US) Use some Scotch tape while you are at it.
dscew	posted 04-25-2009 09:14 AM ET (US) What I've heard about silicone is that water can get behind it since it doesn't have any adhesive qualities. It doesn't really stick to anything.
jimh	posted 04-25-2009 09:42 AM ET (US) Some sealers used for household applications have a tendency to create acetic acid during curing. I would not want to use metal fasteners with a compound that had an acid. A little acetic acid may not harm bathroom ceramic tile, but it can't be good for metal fasteners.
TransAm	posted 04-26-2009 08:11 AM ET (US) A good brand of 100% silicone sealant will work fine for bedding screws. Many of these products are formulated for outdoor use and have a 50+ year warranty. Since in this case, the question is whether it can be used as bedding for screws, there wold be no need for an adhesive quality, although most contain this feature. GE Silicone II window and door sealant, for instance, is good for indoor or outdoor use, is mold/mildew resistant, wont shrink or crack, is water tight and remains permanently flexible. As a builder, I can attest to these time tested characteristics and often use leftover jobsite material for applications on my Whaler. Because the labeling will not contain the words "Marine", these products will usually cost less than half of what products labeled "Marine" will cost and in many cased perform the same function. Inexpensive indoor bathroom caulk would not be a good choice however.
Newtauk1	posted 04-26-2009 10:31 AM ET (US) Quote from manufacturer a popular household of silicone, "Also use on RVs & boats above water line" The poster needs to use this BELOW the water line.
R T M	posted 04-26-2009 12:38 PM ET (US) [As a builder, I can attest to these time tested characteristics and often use leftover jobsite material for applications on my Whaler.] Hey TA, have you found any use for leftover, asphalt roof cement, or a half used roll of duct tape. Maybe a half gallon of interior latex paint that almost matches Desert Tan. LOL Don`t be a cheap skate buy the right stuff for your Whaler. I hope others don`t take you seriously, and make a mess of their boats. rich/Binkie
TransAm	posted 04-26-2009 01:13 PM ET (US) Hey rich, I just happened to be over at a neighborhood I built 15 years ago at a 40th birthday party; used hardi-plank siding that was caulked with "Household silicon". This stuff looked practically brand new, along with the paint that was applied over it. If it can survive 15 years in a wooded environment full of tree sap, mildew, sun...you name it, I think it would hold up to a 3/16" screw hole with a washer and screw on top of it. In fact, I'll bet even without any silicon adhesive water would not penetrate a washer and a screw snugged tightly. Have the folks at the home take your bib off and wipe your mouth now. Time for afternoon shuffleboard?
TransAm	posted 04-26-2009 02:50 PM ET (US) Binkie says: quote: Don`t be a cheap skate buy the right stuff for your Whaler. Aren't you the one who made a transom mounting bracket for a motor out of a biodegradable material prone to rot when placed in marine environments, mainly wood? How many boats builders these days are building outboard mounting brackets out of wood? Talk about cheapskate. Sorry to interrupt shuffleboard. Hope you're kicking Mrs. Haveskamps butt! LOL
R T M	posted 04-26-2009 02:58 PM ET (US) Hardi-plank is a concrete like material. Will never rot, guaranteed for 50 years. I installed many squares myself. Its very heavy (the 4x8s). You probably never touched it yourself. If you caulked with silicone (amatuar job) probably the siding underneath is rotting by now, but who cares, right, you got paid. LOL rich/Binkie BTW shuffleboard was canceled today. The other team was all in wheelchairs, and our team though they had an unfair advantage.
R T M	posted 04-26-2009 03:10 PM ET (US) TA I think the mahogany motor board on my setback bracket and my kicker bracket will rot just about as fast as the custom mahogany interior. BTW thanks for the opportunity to post a picture of the Sweeet 13. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/ Whaler%20with%20Mercury/WHALER3.jpg rich/Binkie
Nauti Tauk	posted 04-26-2009 03:23 PM ET (US) You guys act like a bunch of third graders sometimes but I tell you what, that's a nice looking 13 Rich and I'd be willing to take my chances with the wood!
R T M	posted 04-26-2009 04:47 PM ET (US) Life shouldn`t be so serious, I think we both are just kidding around, but I do take my shuffleboard competition serious. As there is no testing, most of us take steroids, but Mrs. Havescamps, the captain of the Shady Hills Rest Home shuffleboard team is suspicious as we almost beat them last week. That's what life is all about, Whalering, and shuffleboarding. And getting to the restaurant in time for the early bird special. rich/Binkie
TransAm	posted 04-26-2009 04:58 PM ET (US) To again address tedious' question, If you are going to install a screw and washer to temporarily fill a very small hole in the transom, you could use a wad a chewing-gum and be ok if you want. If you are looking for a permanent fix, use some thickened epoxy or Evercoat formula 27. P.S. Binks, there no way you could have installed Hardi...they didn't have it back in the early part of the 20th century.
acseatsri	posted 04-26-2009 04:59 PM ET (US) The previous owner of my Outrage caulked a thru-hull fitting with silicone. When I looked into it, the silicone was nothing but a gooey material that I could wipe off with my finger. I ended up removing it and re-caulking it with 5200, as I use on ANYTHING which will normally be submerged and is intended to be permanent. You want an ADHESIVE sealant so that it will stick to and seal the intended surfaces. There's a reason that that 4200/5200 have notes on the tubes specifying for use above/below the waterline and silicones don't. Re your decking- all that is subjected to is getting wet for short periods of time, not submerged.
R T M	posted 04-26-2009 06:06 PM ET (US) Thats the problem. Unknowing people use the wrong material, and then someone else has to deal with it down the road. If our going to install a thru-hull fitting use 4200 and the job is done forever. BTW TA, myself and a helper installed about 50 Hardi-board panels on a motel after we removed the rotted reverse board and batten. That was no fun job. That was in the '90's.
maverick	posted 04-27-2009 09:21 PM ET (US) Perhaps someone should do a study on this, and place 2 beads of each type caulk (4 samples) on a brick, for example. Let all 4 samples cure equally, and submerge a high dollar bead brand, and a low dollar 100% silicone in water for a few weeks. Leave the other 2 beads out of the water as controls and for comparison. Would be interesting to see the results. Wonder if a couple weeks would be ample test time? Mav
acseatsri	posted 04-28-2009 05:56 PM ET (US) You don't think the manufacturers have done this testing to determine the suitability of their products? Think about this: If your boat wasn't an unsinkable Whaler, would you take a chance using the silicone on a fitting that was submerged and could sink your boat if it leaked? Is it worth saving a $5 bill to possibly have water intrusion into your hull or rotting your transom? I was having a conversation with someone at work who is slipping his boat (not a Whaler). He's worried about the bilge pump if the battery goes dead. Without thinking, I nonchalantly told him to "just pull the plug like I do".
TransAm	posted 05-06-2009 07:53 AM ET (US) For what it's worth, I was in Home Depot the other day and came across a tube of aquarium sealant...100% silicone. It would seem to me to be pretty important that 100% silicone sealant be pretty water tight for aquarium application.
PeteB88	posted 05-06-2009 10:55 AM ET (US) Wood is a superb material for boat building and use in marine environment. Proper application for the job, selection of material and finishing techniques and materials is critical - and easy. Rich knows what he is talking about and has spent a considerable time, like many of us, with valuable information to help Whaler owners with their projects. Respect the wood. I totally agree silicone is generally a mistake for Whalers. I spent a lot of time digging it out of my 11.5. I followed the WEST Systems procedure with a bent nail and drill motor to prepare the holes for epoxy injection (to fill old holes, not bed screws) and it worked great. What about epoxy? or 5200? Is 4200 preferred over 5200? Jim is correct, years ago I had a boss who worked with or was familiar with the original silicone caulk development team way back. When it came out and for many years it was referred to as RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanizing. I recall he said the vinegar smell is a product of the reaction.