ContinuousWave
Whaler
Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Wooden Components Made With Edge-Glued Boards
search | FAQ |
profile | register | author help
|
|
ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Wooden Components Made With Edge-Glued Boards
|
| Author | Topic: Wooden Components Made With Edge-Glued Boards |
| ColderByTheLake |
posted 05-06-2009 09:59 AM ET (US)  
As part of a seat component I am using a 5/8" thick piece of mahagony that is 16" long by 11" wide. I assume I need to rip it into strips and glue back together to avoid warping. What width should those strips be and what glue would you recommend. Thank you. |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-06-2009 10:44 AM ET (US)
I'm not sure you need to worry about a mahogany board warping. I have a couple dozen unfinished mahogany boards of varying dimensions in my garage, been there for years and no warpage. I can't visualize your project let alone the 5/8 inch stock for your project. Perhaps the others will have a better fix on your intent. If you do rip it the only glue would be marine epoxy however, butt joints would concern me w/o biscuits or something. If the intent is to make it bomb proof I'd consider getting another 11x16 board and epoxy the two together, super plywood, very strong, no warp. Read up on marine epoxy, application and clamping - it's very easy to "squeeze" the material out if clamping pressure is excessive and uneven. Well, you will squeeze some out regardless. Keep us posted. I don't think you have to worry about warping unless you have a constant load on it - where' it going? |
| ColderByTheLake |
posted 05-06-2009 12:28 PM ET (US)
Thanks for your reply. This board will be for the vertical support member of a removable, fold-up jumpseat. When in use the board will bear the load vertically, along the grain. When not in use, it will be folded behind the bottom of the seat and will bear no load. |
| skred |
posted 05-06-2009 01:21 PM ET (US)
The original seats on my 13 sport (5/4 mahogany- 1 piece each) had been left by the previous owner - exposed outdoors till most of the varnish had peeled. Both seats had warped so that the front and rear edges of the board were almost 1/2 inch higher than the center of the seat. I was told by a master woodworker that this occurred because they were single pieces of wood. He recommended 2 or 3 "cleats" of the same material glued and screwed front-to-rear on the underside of one-piece boards like this. That tended to prevent the warping. |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-06-2009 01:52 PM ET (US)
The marine grade wood used in Whalers is excellent material and dimensionally stable unless abused. If exposed to the weather and not maintained even the best wood will degrade and that ain't cool. The original wood in both my mid-70s 11.5 and 13 Whalers is near perfect on the face sides I picked up some Whaler wood some years back that was removed from a 13 in fair condition, obviously left exposed w/ minimal maintenance. One of the seat boards had a slight wowie so I ran it through a planer. Abused wood. I cross braced the forward hatch cover (not original to the boat) that was made from butt jointed strips. One of the joints had failed so I epoxied and clamped the piece back together. It is not necessarily easy to get a super perfect mating surface to create butt joints without pro tools and skills. I decided to cross brace while the piece was setting up, cut like five of them, saturated w/ epoxy and tacked them in. I also stripped the piece and applied epoxy base coats and a few coats of spar varnish. good as can be. Good luck |
| koaman |
posted 05-07-2009 02:03 AM ET (US)
If you have not bought the wood yet, make sure you buy a quartersawn piece ( vertical grain) and not flatsawn (also called plainsawn where the grain is parallel to the surface). The flatsawn wood, finished or unfinished will cup much more than a quartersawn piece. Keep in mind that if you are using flatsawn wood, the cupping will be away from heart center( the opposite direction from the center of the log. When flatsawn wood is used for say a wide cabinet door. It would be ripped into 3" to 5" widths and then glued back together alternating the grains so that every other one is going a different direction. That way when the wood moves ( as all wood does when the humidity changes)each piece offsets the movement of the one next to it. |
| deepwater |
posted 05-07-2009 06:38 AM ET (US)
your not going to have much wood left after ripping an 11" board unless you use a band saw,,it would help to know the finish width needed ,,also you might only need 2 cross supports screwed and glued underneath across grain |
| R T M |
posted 05-07-2009 07:28 AM ET (US)
Not sure what you are building but I may have built something similar when I built a rear casting platform for my 13 footer a couple of years ago. I ripped a 1" teak board into 1 1/2" strips on a table saw and glued the pieces together and tru-bolted them with stainless steel threaded rod. I used marine resinol glue (the old boat builders standard glue be fore modern epoxies) as I wanted a slow drying glue, that would not set until everything was bolted together. Then I just leveled it all off with a belt sander. It looks as good today as it did two years ago. Deepwater is right, the saw will eat up a lot of wood. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/Whaler%20repair/ castplat9.jpg http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/Whaler%20repair/ castplat4.jpg http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/floridaboy2053/Whaler%20repair/ castplat10.jpg rich/Binkie |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-07-2009 12:08 PM ET (US)
Forgot about resourcinol - great stuff and you can clamp it. Do you think it's better for teak, Rich? |
| R T M |
posted 05-07-2009 12:33 PM ET (US)
I dunno, Pete, I used a lot of recourcinel glue on boats when I was a yoot. That`s all there was and all wood boats were built with it. Epoxy may be better, but when you think about it, if two pieces of wood are stuck together, and you can`t unstick them, how much more "stick" do you need? rich/Binkie |
| ToxicAvenger |
posted 05-07-2009 02:09 PM ET (US)
Being a woodworker for almost 25 years I have found that it is best to rip it around 4 inch max. Since you are dealing with a 11 inch wide piece you will end up with 3 strips. After ripping you will want to joint the edge to a true 90 and glue it up. Titebond makes an excellent waterproof glue. This is the procedure: 1. Get 4/4 stock in the rough. Enjoy! |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-07-2009 02:17 PM ET (US)
Ripping a wide board then gluing it back together will do absolutely NOTHING to prevent it form warping. |
| koaman |
posted 05-07-2009 02:38 PM ET (US)
Not true Tom, ask any professional woodworker as myself and they will tell you that it is standard procedure to rip wide boards into narrower widths and join them back together. It is important to invert every other piece when gluing back together to offset the movement. If the pieces are glued back together in the same order that they were ripped apart then yes, the piece will move or warp the same as if it was never sawn and joined back together. |
| TransAm |
posted 05-07-2009 02:47 PM ET (US)
Ripping your board will do little to ensure the board remains true and free from warping unless you join the edges with wide splines of some sort. Even then, there is no guaranty and the amount of work involved is excessive. The easiest and arguably the best would be to place 2-3 cleats of similar material on the back side of the panel glued into place with marine epoxy. And if you really want to get picky, determine the edge grain of the cleats (as opposed to the "face" grain) and glue the edge to the back side to the panel and secure it with some stainless screws. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-07-2009 03:48 PM ET (US)
koaman -- I am a professional woodworker with 27 years of experience. Yes, you could rip and invert to accomodate anticipated movement, but that is not what any profesional would do. It is a crude work-around that leaves you with a boad that will not look much better than a composition of three different ones. A professional will choose a piece of wood that does not move more than can be tolerated and accommodated. Remember, ALL wood moves. A simple 11" x 16" board can easily be found that will not warp too much but I would not waste time with a 5/8" thick one. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-07-2009 03:51 PM ET (US)
Joe -- Splining will hold joined boards together but it has little or nothing to do with preventing warping, specifically cupping, which is what is being discussed here. |
| TransAm |
posted 05-07-2009 04:21 PM ET (US)
Tom, I disagree. It has worked well for me the times I have used "wide" splines. In fact, I recently used this technique in joining 3, 1 x 6 pieces of IPE after a failed attempt (boards cupped within 2 weeks) with biscuits. I used 3" wide x 1/4" thick splines and no cupping because much of the board was in effect 3-ply. If, as in this case, you end up with 3, 3 1/2" planks and use a 2" wide spline, more than 50% of the board will effectively be 3-ply which will certainly reduce the ability of the board cup. However, as I suggested, it is probably not the best choice here and a lot of work cutting dado channels and splines the correct thickness-much more trouble than I would go through for this application. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-07-2009 04:46 PM ET (US)
Joe -- Yes, I agree that if you use a 3 inch wide spline (or two) that is 1/4 of an inch thick, then it could very well help prevent cupping of an 11 inch wide board that is 5/8 of an inch thick. But why stop there? Why not band saw the 11 inch wide board into two pieces, thickness plane them down to a 3/16 inch thickness then laminate them to a 1/4 inch thick piece of wood with its grain running perpendicular? If you're going to make plywood, make plywood. Hell, you could get serious and bolt several short pieces of angle iron, (or stainless steel) across the width of the 11 inch wide board in question. That ought to hold 'er flat. Fellas, the guy just wants a holder-upper piece of wood for his jump seat. My advice is to not fool around making this absurdly complicated but rather select of piece of wood that works the way it is. |
| TransAm |
posted 05-07-2009 05:01 PM ET (US)
Cause I don't have a band saw and I have 2 table saws-one with dedicated with a dado blade. I agree with over-thinking/over-working this application, as I have now said 3 times. If Colder is still concerned about warping, strap on a couple of cleats and call it a day. |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-07-2009 05:17 PM ET (US)
There's a dozen or more ways to do this. I'd get me two 1/2" boards of high quality marine mahogany and make me a one inch thick piece of "plywood" by coating the mating surfaces entirely to permeate the wood fibers, letting them cure almost and then coat again and position them so grain opposes the other board - or just one coat. Weights or vacuum bag, clamps whatever you got. That sucker will be bomb proof Tom - you are so right, keep it simple. |
| koaman |
posted 05-07-2009 05:39 PM ET (US)
Tom, Thanks for correcting yourself. If you read the original post, it sounded like Colderbythelake already had a piece of wood. If you read my first post, the suggestion of getting a quartersawn piece was the first thing I said. let's not all get into a pissing match but to say joining boards together to make a wide board is crude work is insane. You cannot always find a 10' long x 5' wide quartersawn slab for making a dining room table. Some of the finest woodworkers in the world join boards together for their work. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-07-2009 05:46 PM ET (US)
Yes, they do but none of them are going to rip a five foot wide board and the glue it back together. We can talk all day long about joining boards together, which is quite common, but that is not what was suggested. It's also a great topic for some other web site. |
| R T M |
posted 05-07-2009 05:52 PM ET (US)
An old wooden boatbuilder told mu years ago,"The simplest way is always the best way.' Pick a roughsawn board that looks flat to the eye. and then plane it flat. Don`t mess with a cupped rough board and plane it flat. It will give you trouble. rich/Binkie |
| deepwater |
posted 05-07-2009 06:55 PM ET (US)
i question was asked a few days ago weather jimh charged by the word,,,,pity,,he could afford gas all year at this rate ^@^,,hey Max,, |
| HAPPYJIM |
posted 05-07-2009 10:23 PM ET (US)
It sounds like this piece of wood will be used as a seat back. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are limited by space to just 5/8 inch, I would use mahogany plywood and trim the exposed edges with mahogany strips. If you need to use the wood that you already have, build it and worry about warping/cupping/splitting after using it for a few years. I'm always interested in seeing modifications to our boats. Please post a picture of the finished seat as there may be some of us that are not purists and like a good mod when it will work. I'm currently trying to figure a way to add seating to my 1993 19 Outrage II that will not interfere with my fishing. |
| ToxicAvenger |
posted 05-08-2009 07:57 AM ET (US)
Tom, A little clarification here. I have worked on some of the furniture built on some very exclusive yachts. A few of my pieces will be found on some well known NASCAR racers with the initials JG and JB. Furthermore, I have done work for some of the more well known, and respected residents in West Central Florida. We pride ourselves on delivering the finest handcrafted cabinets, and furniture that you can build, as well as many other pieces that fit the customers request. So your assertions that my specific post relays information that would be detrimental to the original posters question is wrong. I will add that the choices of finishes and how it is finished will further reduce movement. Our preference is to finish ALL surfaces prior to installation. We carefully analyze the project to correctly determine the appropriate methods to use for that specific project. So although there may be different ways to accomplish the task, the rules of woodworking were written well before my time. Those rules we have followed and are happy to say they have worked excellent for us. A link for some eye candy: Have a good day and happy boating! |
| R T M |
posted 05-08-2009 09:48 AM ET (US)
for the lazy |
| R T M |
posted 05-08-2009 09:55 AM ET (US)
(A link for some eye candy:) I assume you mean the model on the front page. Those are some UGLY European designed "yachts" rich/Binkie |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-08-2009 10:03 AM ET (US)
quote: Eric -- I never said anything of the sort. What I said was: "Ripping a wide board then gluing it back together will do absolutely NOTHING to prevent it from warping." This is perfectly true. While I do not have any woodwork in any NASCAR racers, I find your credentials impressive but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether a board will warp or not. You *can* take a cupped board, rip it, join the pieces and then glue it back together to make it flat just as you can take a flat board, rip it into pieces, bevel the edges and glue it back together to make it curved (coopered). You could also do as koaman suggest and flip every other piece so the tendency of each piece of wood to cup will counteract each other, but that is not what you suggested. It is also a silly thing to do. Yesterday I was hanging some cabinet doors with the assistance of the best woodworker I have ever met, my friend Spencer. Spencer is a furniture designer, maker and master woodworker as well as a member of the Northwest Fine Woodworking coop. He makes me look like a hack. I asked him if he ever used the technique of ripping and inverting a wide board to help maintain flatness. He replied with a chuckle saying, sure there were old books that recommend that technique but he never uses it. He went on to say that Tage Frid (who he was a student of) always used to say: "Who doesn't want to look at the good side of the board?" In other words, why flip every other piece to show its bad side and also make the board look like strips of different wood glued together instead of just enjoying the beauty of the board as it came from the tree trunk? Anybody can glue skinny pieces of wood together to make a wide one, but it is far more difficult to find a wide board and judge it potential stability by eye. By far the most practical advice offered so far is from Rich who suggests finding a flat rough sawn board and then working with that instead of messing with a cupped board. You will find some more pretty pictures here: http://www.nwfinewoodworking.com/ |
| gnr |
posted 05-08-2009 11:43 AM ET (US)
Not true Tom. Of course it depends on the wood type and the individual board to some extent but ripping and regluing has been used to create larger panels and to avoid warping for a long long time. And with good reason. |
| koaman |
posted 05-08-2009 12:02 PM ET (US)
Tom doesn't know what he's talking about. Well except the part where his friend makes him look like a hack. Because he probably is. |
| koaman |
posted 05-08-2009 12:39 PM ET (US)
Here are some examples of crude, silly work showing the ugly side of the wood from a few of the guys I sell wood to. All using the " rip and flip technique" http://www.hanacoast.com/Flutes2.jpg http://www.fogelvik.com/Dressers_pages/de_dresser.html |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-08-2009 01:32 PM ET (US)
GNR -- What is not true? |
| koaman |
posted 05-08-2009 01:46 PM ET (US)
Don't want to get criticized for not showing some of my own " rip and flip" work. I did my whole kitchen in Mango wood using " rip and flip". It's so crude and ugly I don't know how I can look at it everyday. Ha Silly me. |
| gnr |
posted 05-08-2009 01:57 PM ET (US)
quote:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question in your thread about Wahoos. ;-) |
| R T M |
posted 05-08-2009 03:39 PM ET (US)
Hey koeman, I didn`t bother to look at all your pictures, but I`ll tell you this, if you want to spend the money for expensive computer controlled tools anyone can build that crap. Nothing to it, just set the dial and drink a beer. I`d rather spend my money on nice furniture than tools. BTW have you ever planked a boat. that`s where the rubber meets the road, it`s all done by eye and hand not turning dials, and you don`t have a computer to rely on, and your cuts are not all 90`s and 45s. Also your working in all sort of odd positions, not sitting on a stool. (guys I sell wood to.)I just picked up that quote on your post. Your a wood peddler, not a wood builder. My buddy sells used cars, but he doesn't claim to have built them. rich/Binkie |
| TransAm |
posted 05-08-2009 04:24 PM ET (US)
I love it when Binkie introduces some irrelevant topic to appear smart. Planking a boat in odd positions, not sitting on a stool...Lol |
| koaman |
posted 05-08-2009 05:02 PM ET (US)
RTM, Nice of you to think my work was done on a CNC machine, but I've never owned or used one. I was taught "old school" by some very good craftsmen. No I have never planked a boat and I don't think I would like my work to look like " where the rubber meets the road". Yes I do sell wood. Wood is what I do, from felling and milling giant trees to building fine furniture and EVERYTHING in between. I would not get into a pissing match with Tom Clark as to the information on his Boston Whaler CD's and I suggest you do the same with me when it comes to wood. |
| R T M |
posted 05-08-2009 09:00 PM ET (US)
OH YEA !! Check out this cool table I built out of a cable spool, It even has a hole for an umbrella. Beat that, koaman. http://picasaweb.google.com/LifeLabPhotos/ CreativeCreations#5080858546498654946 rich/Binkie |
| nauticallumber |
posted 05-08-2009 10:44 PM ET (US)
WOW! Im not going to touch this Thread! lol Mike |
| koaman |
posted 05-08-2009 11:06 PM ET (US)
Nice work. Don't think I can beat that one. Wasn't that piece featured in Fine Woodworking's special redneck edition? |
| davej14 |
posted 05-09-2009 12:25 AM ET (US)
On the other hand it didn't warp :-) I think you guys need to get out on your boats more. |
| WhalerAce |
posted 05-09-2009 07:54 AM ET (US)
You know, I admired the workmanship in ALL of those pictures. It is great how many talented people we have on this forum. After seeing those pieces displayed (well, not Binkie's umbrella stand, but he does a GREAT console for Whalers) I am almost intimidated about rebuilding the teak console for my new ribside. But I do take comfort in the fact that they are folks on this forum who can authoritatively answer any wood-working questions that I may have. You can tell these guys are just as passionate about their livelihoods as much as their Whalers. We would probably get just as many passionate and authoritative replies if you asked "Do I trailer with the engine UP or DOWN?" Thanks, --- WhalerAce |
| deepwater |
posted 05-09-2009 07:45 PM ET (US)
Again,,If you rip the wood you wont have much left to glue together,,Make you seat component and see how it holds up first,, Than if you need to you can add stiffeners across the grain and pull the cup out,, |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-09-2009 10:27 PM ET (US)
Good comment on all the talent. There is more than a hint of pride and competitive spirit. But I could never get anyone interested in Classic 13 races like the Gougeon Bros. Maybe we need to have a Whaler Rodeo, races, hole shots, best wood, fastest trailer loader, big wave competition the whole nine and after Jim's post about Vulgar Virgil or whomever, a swearing contest. |
| R T M |
posted 05-09-2009 11:41 PM ET (US)
Quote from Pete (I could never get anyone interested in Classic 13 Races) Probably because no one wants to watch race boats at 35mph. But you can race a trihull. Would a 16 ft. Whaler be competitive? Here is a thread from Boat Racing Facts on Trihull Racing. I think its popular in Texas. A Whaler with a rollcage would be unique. LOL http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5086 rich/Binkie |
| PeteB88 |
posted 05-10-2009 11:10 AM ET (US)
I don't care if anyone watches, I just want to do it. Slalom course, drags, figure 8's, just for the fun of it. Len will probably get one and put a 90 ETEC on back. I bet if you give the keys to 5 or 6 13-15 year olds they'll be racing within 10 minutes. Running WOT with my 13 or 11.5 w/ 25 those boats steer like slot cars, I've never ran a small hydroplane like Bink but I get some kicks out of going fast in those boats. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-10-2009 12:38 PM ET (US)
koaman -- I looked at all the photos you linked to and Man! is that nice work. You obviously know what you are doing. I still maintain that ColderByTheLake will better to find a piece of wood that works for him rather than building a dining table to support his jump seat ;-) Regarding CNC wood working: the right tool for the job is always the best approach. I am not a tool snob and embrace technology where it meets a need. The Shaker religious order that made beautiful hand crafted woodwork, furniture and buildings was known for their reverence for things simple, and their austere lifestyle. I often comes as a surprise to many that the circular saw was invented by the founder of the Shakers, Tabitha Babbit, who was simply after efficiency. My brother-in-law is a professional boat builder and woodworker. His uses a CNC router in his shop to do all sorts of things. He is also very well experienced in hand work. It depends on the job. Some photos (of boats, not tables) can be found on his web site: |
| koaman |
posted 05-11-2009 12:41 AM ET (US)
Tom, I couldn't agree with you more, I often have to tell myself to " keep it simple stupid". Sorry if I went a bit overboard getting my point across about laninating boards together. There are many ways to "skin a cat" or should I say "clean a fish". |
| R T M |
posted 05-11-2009 07:35 AM ET (US)
I think that fine furniture that is built in India and China, and is available here in furniture stores is not the result of super craftsmen. Its just the results of workers pushing buttons on computer controlled machines. For the low prices that are charged how else could it be. I never was fortunate enough to be a "Norm Abrams" type with an elaborate shop. As a retired home builder and frame and trim carpenter, my tools are all portable. When I built some Whaler interiors 3 or four years ago, I found the labor factor was too great and time consuming, using a 12 in planer, table saw, circular saw, portable router, chop saw, portable sanders,and various hand tools to make it profitable, even as a hobby. Also after a lifetime of carpentry, its not really fun to do, and I would rather do one-offs on my own boats or just restore old boats. rich/Bnkie |
| koaman |
posted 05-11-2009 02:02 PM ET (US)
Rich, I have not found any of the imported furniture to have any real high quality. The reason it is so inexpensive is that the labor costs are so low. Roughly 1/10 of what our costs are here in the U.S. They may use CNC machines but I believe it's the labor costs. I also found out a while back that there was no money in furniture making. I now only build furniture for personal use and the work I sell now are so called " pieces of art" to galleries. I have found that making one of a kind " art pieces" and brokering wood are the only way I can make decent money. |
| fishgutz |
posted 05-11-2009 04:36 PM ET (US)
Not to derail here but jimh changed the title of this thread. A "thwart seat" goes all the way across the boat, like a bench seat does. The original author is talking about a "jump seat". |
| jimh |
posted 05-12-2009 09:00 AM ET (US)
[Changed TOPIC line to "Seats" and "Edge-Glued."} |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 05-12-2009 09:40 AM ET (US)
The thread title is misleading. ColderByTheLake is not asking how to make a seat. All he wants is a stick or leg to hold up a folding jump seat. I direct your attention to the beginning of the thread where he makes this very clear. The discussion has been somewhat sidetracked by other discussions. |
| koaman |
posted 05-12-2009 12:25 PM ET (US)
I think jim was just a little board. Get it? Better correction wood be "Cutting and Glueing Boards to Prevent Warpage" |
| ColderByTheLake |
posted 05-20-2009 10:09 PM ET (US)
Gentlemen, thank you for the spirited responses to what I thought was a simple question! (Just shows how much I still have to learn!) I will endeavor to use your generous and wise advise in a way that will do justice to your knowledge and also securely support my riders' backsides. Have a great summer! |
| jimh |
posted 05-20-2009 11:33 PM ET (US)
Try the new TOPIC line, I think it satisfies all critics. |
| |
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.