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Author Topic:   Can't get my mahogany perfect

BobL posted 09-09-2009 09:52 PM ET (US)
I’m almost ready to start varnishing the mahogany from my 1987 15’ Super Sport. I’ve stripped the wood, sanded, then sanded some more, bleached with oxalic acid, and then sanded some more. I would like to get the mahogany to look like new but I still have some gray spots on some of the horizontal surfaces. The sanding removed most of the imperfections and the wood bleach lightened the gray spots but they are not totally gone. I don’t want to start the varnishing process if there is a chance to completely remove the spots. Am I expecting too much of 22 year old mahogany or is there a step I’m missing?
macfam posted 09-10-2009 07:39 AM ET (US)
BobL,
Those water stains can go pretty deep.
If oxalic acid doesn't remove it all, then the only thing left is to mechanically remove it with more sanding.
But, you can go TOO deep, where the cure is worse than the disease.
If it's 2 or 3 pieces, Nautical Lumber can supply new pieces.
I still have some dark spots around screw areas, but it adds a bit of character to my 1987 Super Sport.
Still looks great.
Where are you in E. Falmouth?
I keep my 13 Super Sport on a mooring about a 1/3 mile up Eel River from the Menahaunt Yacht Club.
It has a new blue Mills mooring cover, and sits behind a flag blue 28' Albin (Santosha)
home Aside posted 09-10-2009 08:44 AM ET (US)
Did you try flipping the wood, If the seat planks/boards are stained on the top from water, etc, pooling on them maybe the underside is not stained. I remember someone else here talking about flipping the seats because of imperfections on the side that was originally up...just a thought
Pat
R T M posted 09-10-2009 09:12 AM ET (US)
If you buy new pieces to replace the ones that you can`t make right, make sure you buy Philippine mahogany. Sapele, or African mahogany, which is commonly used today, looks entirely different when put against Philippine.
rich/Binkie
wezie posted 09-10-2009 10:37 AM ET (US)
And then there is stain.
Might try it last before taking it all apart.
Lighter stain or,
you can begin thinning it and/or trying it on some wood out of sight. Try it on some other piece of wood.
Perfect? Works on the interior teak in the sailboat.
pglein posted 09-10-2009 11:52 AM ET (US)
Depending on how bad the spots are, I find that once the varnish goes on, they either disappear, or I become less sensitive to them.
L H G posted 09-10-2009 04:22 PM ET (US)
Use ZAR #120 Natural Teak stain, (yes, even on Whaler's Phillippine Mahogany) and your problems will be over. I use this stain on all of my varnish work, teak, mahogany or marine plywood, and everybody thinks my varnish work looks great.
As for the stains around Whaler's screw hole detail in varnished wood, (a very bad Whaler detail with the finishing washer cutting the varnished surface), use a 3/4" dia #10 fender washer against the wood surface (available at West Marine), than the traditional finishing washer and #10 oval head screw/bolt.
You can see both details here if you enlarge the photo full size:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Outrage%2019/?action=view& current=R1-21.jpg
BobL posted 09-10-2009 09:19 PM ET (US)
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have sanded as much as I think is reasonable. I agree that too much sanding is worse than some gray spots. I’ll try the oxalic acid again and also experiment with staining some scrap pieces of mahogany. I used the scrap pieces to make some bungs. A few of the seat hinge screw holes were oversized and needed to be plugged and re-drilled for original sized screws. Initially I ruled out staining the wood but I might have to rethink that. The results LHG got with the ZAR #120 is very impressive. (Beautifully restored/maintained boat)
The front seat can be easily turned over. I’m not sure that will work for my other pieces. The flat washers are a great idea. It is surprising how much damage the finishing washers do over the years. The sun also does a great deal of damage in bleaching out the natural red colors in the mahogany. Most of the sun-damaged layer sanded off but the lesson is clear about keeping the wood out of direct sunlight whenever possible.
The mahogany has plenty of life left and is really in pretty good shape. I’ve just seen so many incredibly restored boats on this site that I was striving for that same level of perfection.
Macfam,
I am over on Green Pond. I have a mooring on the north side of the bridge for my other boat. I keep the Whaler garaged. It has never had bottom paint and I can’t bring myself to change that. I think I have seen your Whaler on Eel Pond. I’ll have to make a point of noticing it.
Many thanks,
BobL
Lil Whaler Lover posted 09-11-2009 07:31 AM ET (US)
I got the stains out of wood that was about 16 years old by running them through a neighbors planer. It was large enough to take the entire seat. It was set to take off 1/1000 of an inch. We did this twice and it looked like new wood. It did not take off enough material to require any work on the radiased corners of the seat.
A quick easy 15 minute job with much better results.
conch posted 09-11-2009 10:51 AM ET (US)
I totally agree that if you can gain access to a planer you will be pleased with the results. You will also like the uniformity of the wood, and as stated you are finished in minutes.
PeteB88 posted 09-14-2009 04:58 AM ET (US)
Sometimes those blemishes are just part of the legacy of the boat. I agree, they will probably disappear or become less obvious once varnish is applied. When I have similar concerns I often get the unfinished area damp w/ a very small amount of water or saliva. That will give you an idea of what the spot in question will look like with clear finish.
I am intrigued by LHG's recommendation for stain. I have seen Whaler wood stained (why would anyone stain that great mahogany?) that looked ridiculous. However, I have had pieces where I worried about balanced colors etc and wanted to stain to match. I also do more epoxy base coats then I have so stain must be non-oil based.
Good luck - don't trip on it.
wezie posted 09-14-2009 09:06 AM ET (US)
LHG thank you for the source for a stain that works. Finding the "right one" can be the problem.
For the sailboat I have a can of another source that is almost 20 years old. It is still the right one for that job. Once found, they become the "reach for" product that can be used with out the eternal trial and error.
The picture you posted is good.
TransAm posted 09-14-2009 10:04 AM ET (US)
Wow, a planner that can be calibrated to 1/1000 of an inch. That must be some planner. Considering a sheet of typical paper is about 5/1000" thick, removing a layer of wood 1/5 the thickness of paper would be some trick. I suspect something much thicker was actually removed, perhaps 1/32 of an inch. Any stain that could not be sanded out would probably be at least that thick.
A planner would indeed be the tool of choice for uniform removal of a small thickness of wood. Trying to sand out a stain in only one area of a plank may produce a small valley or depression in the wood.
pglein posted 09-14-2009 12:19 PM ET (US)
I used a planer to remove the old varnish and stains from the original seats in my 13' Whaler. It did the job very quickly, did not remove too much material, and provided excellent results.
Many here critized me for doing so; stating that it would remove too much material, would damage the planer, or would not provide uniform results. But I never heard any criticism at the rendezvous' or from any of the dozens of people who compliment me on the boat's interior on my travels every summer.
R T M posted 09-14-2009 02:46 PM ET (US)
The only possible problem I can see with planing old finished mahogany is if the wood is badly cupped or warped. By the time you get all the finish planed off, the wood might be too thin to use as a seat, but it would make good stock for building a new console or seat clamps, as the only need be 3/4"
rich/Binkie

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Author	Topic: Can't get my mahogany perfect
BobL	posted 09-09-2009 09:52 PM ET (US) I’m almost ready to start varnishing the mahogany from my 1987 15’ Super Sport. I’ve stripped the wood, sanded, then sanded some more, bleached with oxalic acid, and then sanded some more. I would like to get the mahogany to look like new but I still have some gray spots on some of the horizontal surfaces. The sanding removed most of the imperfections and the wood bleach lightened the gray spots but they are not totally gone. I don’t want to start the varnishing process if there is a chance to completely remove the spots. Am I expecting too much of 22 year old mahogany or is there a step I’m missing?
macfam	posted 09-10-2009 07:39 AM ET (US) BobL, Those water stains can go pretty deep. If oxalic acid doesn't remove it all, then the only thing left is to mechanically remove it with more sanding. But, you can go TOO deep, where the cure is worse than the disease. If it's 2 or 3 pieces, Nautical Lumber can supply new pieces. I still have some dark spots around screw areas, but it adds a bit of character to my 1987 Super Sport. Still looks great. Where are you in E. Falmouth? I keep my 13 Super Sport on a mooring about a 1/3 mile up Eel River from the Menahaunt Yacht Club. It has a new blue Mills mooring cover, and sits behind a flag blue 28' Albin (Santosha)
home Aside	posted 09-10-2009 08:44 AM ET (US) Did you try flipping the wood, If the seat planks/boards are stained on the top from water, etc, pooling on them maybe the underside is not stained. I remember someone else here talking about flipping the seats because of imperfections on the side that was originally up...just a thought Pat
R T M	posted 09-10-2009 09:12 AM ET (US) If you buy new pieces to replace the ones that you can`t make right, make sure you buy Philippine mahogany. Sapele, or African mahogany, which is commonly used today, looks entirely different when put against Philippine. rich/Binkie
wezie	posted 09-10-2009 10:37 AM ET (US) And then there is stain. Might try it last before taking it all apart. Lighter stain or, you can begin thinning it and/or trying it on some wood out of sight. Try it on some other piece of wood. Perfect? Works on the interior teak in the sailboat.
pglein	posted 09-10-2009 11:52 AM ET (US) Depending on how bad the spots are, I find that once the varnish goes on, they either disappear, or I become less sensitive to them.
L H G	posted 09-10-2009 04:22 PM ET (US) Use ZAR #120 Natural Teak stain, (yes, even on Whaler's Phillippine Mahogany) and your problems will be over. I use this stain on all of my varnish work, teak, mahogany or marine plywood, and everybody thinks my varnish work looks great. As for the stains around Whaler's screw hole detail in varnished wood, (a very bad Whaler detail with the finishing washer cutting the varnished surface), use a 3/4" dia #10 fender washer against the wood surface (available at West Marine), than the traditional finishing washer and #10 oval head screw/bolt. You can see both details here if you enlarge the photo full size: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Outrage%2019/?action=view& current=R1-21.jpg
BobL	posted 09-10-2009 09:19 PM ET (US) Thanks for all of the suggestions. I have sanded as much as I think is reasonable. I agree that too much sanding is worse than some gray spots. I’ll try the oxalic acid again and also experiment with staining some scrap pieces of mahogany. I used the scrap pieces to make some bungs. A few of the seat hinge screw holes were oversized and needed to be plugged and re-drilled for original sized screws. Initially I ruled out staining the wood but I might have to rethink that. The results LHG got with the ZAR #120 is very impressive. (Beautifully restored/maintained boat) The front seat can be easily turned over. I’m not sure that will work for my other pieces. The flat washers are a great idea. It is surprising how much damage the finishing washers do over the years. The sun also does a great deal of damage in bleaching out the natural red colors in the mahogany. Most of the sun-damaged layer sanded off but the lesson is clear about keeping the wood out of direct sunlight whenever possible. The mahogany has plenty of life left and is really in pretty good shape. I’ve just seen so many incredibly restored boats on this site that I was striving for that same level of perfection. Macfam, I am over on Green Pond. I have a mooring on the north side of the bridge for my other boat. I keep the Whaler garaged. It has never had bottom paint and I can’t bring myself to change that. I think I have seen your Whaler on Eel Pond. I’ll have to make a point of noticing it. Many thanks, BobL
Lil Whaler Lover	posted 09-11-2009 07:31 AM ET (US) I got the stains out of wood that was about 16 years old by running them through a neighbors planer. It was large enough to take the entire seat. It was set to take off 1/1000 of an inch. We did this twice and it looked like new wood. It did not take off enough material to require any work on the radiased corners of the seat. A quick easy 15 minute job with much better results.
conch	posted 09-11-2009 10:51 AM ET (US) I totally agree that if you can gain access to a planer you will be pleased with the results. You will also like the uniformity of the wood, and as stated you are finished in minutes.
PeteB88	posted 09-14-2009 04:58 AM ET (US) Sometimes those blemishes are just part of the legacy of the boat. I agree, they will probably disappear or become less obvious once varnish is applied. When I have similar concerns I often get the unfinished area damp w/ a very small amount of water or saliva. That will give you an idea of what the spot in question will look like with clear finish. I am intrigued by LHG's recommendation for stain. I have seen Whaler wood stained (why would anyone stain that great mahogany?) that looked ridiculous. However, I have had pieces where I worried about balanced colors etc and wanted to stain to match. I also do more epoxy base coats then I have so stain must be non-oil based. Good luck - don't trip on it.
wezie	posted 09-14-2009 09:06 AM ET (US) LHG thank you for the source for a stain that works. Finding the "right one" can be the problem. For the sailboat I have a can of another source that is almost 20 years old. It is still the right one for that job. Once found, they become the "reach for" product that can be used with out the eternal trial and error. The picture you posted is good.
TransAm	posted 09-14-2009 10:04 AM ET (US) Wow, a planner that can be calibrated to 1/1000 of an inch. That must be some planner. Considering a sheet of typical paper is about 5/1000" thick, removing a layer of wood 1/5 the thickness of paper would be some trick. I suspect something much thicker was actually removed, perhaps 1/32 of an inch. Any stain that could not be sanded out would probably be at least that thick. A planner would indeed be the tool of choice for uniform removal of a small thickness of wood. Trying to sand out a stain in only one area of a plank may produce a small valley or depression in the wood.
pglein	posted 09-14-2009 12:19 PM ET (US) I used a planer to remove the old varnish and stains from the original seats in my 13' Whaler. It did the job very quickly, did not remove too much material, and provided excellent results. Many here critized me for doing so; stating that it would remove too much material, would damage the planer, or would not provide uniform results. But I never heard any criticism at the rendezvous' or from any of the dozens of people who compliment me on the boat's interior on my travels every summer.
R T M	posted 09-14-2009 02:46 PM ET (US) The only possible problem I can see with planing old finished mahogany is if the wood is badly cupped or warped. By the time you get all the finish planed off, the wood might be too thin to use as a seat, but it would make good stock for building a new console or seat clamps, as the only need be 3/4" rich/Binkie