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Author Topic:   Design of Hydraulic Steering Systems

jimh posted 01-27-2010 08:35 AM ET (US)
The following discussion of hydraulic steering systems broke out in the MARKETPLACE.
Russ 13 posted 01-23-2010 11:40 PM ET (US)
[Does TELEFLEX] offer a [hydraulic steering] system for over 150-HP. [I need] a system for a single 225-HP
Thanks, Russ
outragesteve posted 01-24-2010 04:11 AM ET (US)
Russ: I would not recommend a Baystar system for engines over 150 HP. What is the make/year of your engine? If you are interested in a complete system, send me a private email for details. Thanks
Tom W Clark posted 01-24-2010 11:36 AM ET (US)
Guys,
Don't mix up the Sea Star and Bay Star systems.
The $550 Bay Star system that outragesteve talks about is for motors less than 150 HP and would be suitable for Rick's boat.
For motors over 150 HP, you want the original Sea Star system, though it can be used on smaller motors too.
$550 can buy a complete Bay Star system but will only buy the HC5348 cylinder. Helm and hoses is in addition to that cost with the Sea Star system.
Rick -- Two questions:
Why are you using the Sea Star instead of the Bay Star with your 140?
Why the 1.7 helm? That is what is used on big boats like my twin engine 25. I even think it is too slow for my boat but a small boat like yours would be much more fun to drive and less like a school bus with the faster 2.0 or 2.3 helm.
outragesteve posted 01-24-2010 02:05 PM ET (US)
FYI: The 1.7 helm is the "stock" helm Teleflex packages in most of the complete systems. I rigged an Edgewater w/ twin Yamaha 225/4S and the 2.3 used. Although the turns lock-to-lock were less, the steering effort was more. Not a big difference, but the owner did see it over the replaced 1.7 unit. Good luck!
contender posted 01-24-2010 08:47 PM ET (US)
Tom: I was told by a couple of people to use the 1.7 helm. I do not know the difference nor have enough education about them except I would think one of the helms turn faster than the other(do they all have the same number of turns but at different speeds?). I should get off my duff and call and talk to someone at teleflex about the different units. Another question I should have asked here is there anyone with a 17 whaler with a seastar and what helm size are they using. As far as the Baystar/Seastar couple of reasons. I'm pretty much on the border with the HP ratting, so I would feel more at ease with the larger unit, second I seem to see more seastar units than baystar I do not want a replacement parts problem (stupid, maybe but just my thinking) If it does not work/or I do not like it, it would be a replacement(cylinder/helm) for my larger boat.
Thanks to everyone for the help
Tom W Clark posted 01-24-2010 09:33 PM ET (US)
There is nothing wrong with using the Sea Star on smaller motors. It is a better system, just more money.
The helm size refers to the volume of the pump (the helm is, essentially, a hydraulic pump). Sea Star helms come in 1.3, 1.7, 2.0 and 2.3 cu. in. volumes.
As outragesteve explains, the smaller the volume of the pump, the more turns of the steering wheel it will take to move the cylinder (and thus the motor) but the benefit is it will be less effort at the wheel.
The analogy is of gearing in your car or bicycle. You can "gear down" your steering by using a smaller capacity helm or you can increase the responsiveness of the steering by increasing the size of the helm.
Yes, the 1.7 is by far the most common size and what Whaler used on the big boats that had Sea Star as standard equipment. But for a 16'-7" Whaler with a 140, I think the 1.7 helm would be way to slow.
While the 2.3 might be debatable the 2.0 would be good compromise for faster steering response but still be super easy to turn the wheel.
I would suggest that the 2.3 might be worth considering, but certainly the 2.0 would be preferable to the 1.7 in this situation.
contender posted 01-24-2010 10:06 PM ET (US)
Tom: I think you are correct and it makes sence, a 2.0 helm sounds the way to go. Another question if the 1.7 is easier to turn would it be benifical to place a knob on the wheel(edson wheel)to be able to turn it faster using the 1.7? My steering wheel is only a 13 inch, less tork than a 15 inch. Thanks again
number9 posted 01-25-2010 04:41 AM ET (US)
The smaller helms offer a difference besides less steering effort that some may want to consider. The steering inputs are less/smaller making minor course corrections easier.

number9 posted 01-25-2010 04:58 AM ET (US)
This selection guide has most of the info you will need with part numbers.
http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/PDFs/SL6001-13-02.pdf
And SeaStar owners manual with installation info if you want to pre-read.
http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/PDFs/296784-AO.pdf
Tom W Clark posted 01-25-2010 10:11 AM ET (US)
number9 -- You have it backwards.
With smaller helms, the steering input must be greater to achieve the same response as a larger helm.
number9 posted 01-25-2010 10:22 AM ET (US)
Tom,
Smaller input to cylinder = less course correction. Less chance of over correction and having to correct again.
Tom W Clark posted 01-25-2010 10:32 AM ET (US)
Yes, less steerng input means less course correction, however there is no danger of overcorrection, quite the contrary.
With the 1.7 helm on my boat it takes a lot of wheel movement to get the boat to change course noticeably. It is an irritating "dead" feel that one can avoid by using a larger helm.
outragesteve posted 01-25-2010 02:57 PM ET (US)
Just a few thoughts...Teleflex packages the 1.7 helm for a reason. There is not a very large difference using a higher voulume helm. The larger capacity helms are generally used in boats with dual steering cylinders, dual steering stations, and boats equipped with auto pilots. Thanks
contender posted 01-25-2010 05:40 PM ET (US)
I sent Teleflex an Email last night, gave them the size of my boat and engine, also told them that the engine would be mounted on a 4 inch set back engine bracket with a 13 inch steering wheel. The response was to use the 1.7 size helm. I never actually talk to anyone about the helm, so I was not able to ask any questions.
outragesteve posted 01-25-2010 09:08 PM ET (US)
1.7 is fine! I had a customer last month w/ a Montauk/90 Yamaha 90/4 that had a "dead spot" in the steering about in the middle. Lock to lock was fine. It ended up just needing to be bleed (air in cylinder) and now its fine. I've installed 2 of these systems on Montauks in the last year and they both have the 1.7 helms and no complaints! Good luck
Tom W Clark posted 01-25-2010 10:03 PM ET (US)
The helms cost the same. You do not pay more for a larger (or smaller) volume helm.
If you want to know how the 1.7 will be on your boat, see how many turns, lock-to-lock it takes with the steering system now. Most mechanical systems are either 4.2 or 3.0 turns lock-to-lock.
For comparison, a 1.7 helm with a single cylinder will be about 5 tuns lock-to-lock.
I found an old email from Marc Adams at Teleflex. He had answered a query I sent with my complaint that the steering on my boat was too slow with the 1.7 helm. Here is his response (from June 2008):
"If you can live with 4 turns lock to lock, I would go with the 2.0 helm. This is the best of both worlds, low turns, not too hard to steer.
Going to the 2.4 might be just a little too heavy handed.
thanks,
Marc"
And this is in reference to my 300 HP twin engine Revenge 25. I cannot imagine the drudgery of having to spin the wheel five time in a little Montauk.
contender posted 01-26-2010 03:05 PM ET (US)
Tom, I called Telflex this morning to ask some questions about the different helms, but all the tech's were busy. I left my number but have not heard back and its 4pm at my house. The email I received from Teleflex was from a Marc also but no last name. I'll try to call again tomorrow, would like to speak to someone over the phone to get the correct low down.
contender posted 01-26-2010 04:28 PM ET (US)
1705 Hrs. Tuesday Just received a call from a Mike at Teleflex in Sarasota Florida. He told me the 1.7 helm would be 5 turns to hard over but easy to turn, the 2.0 would be 4 turns to hard over but harder to turn. He asked me if I had any steering problems at high speed (boat tail walking), I told him no, if my boat starts to tail walk I just trim it in a little or back off the gas some. He did state that small boats that go over 70 MPH (Bass Boats) should use the 2.0 helm. He also recommended (stated they were a lot better) to use the teleflex pro hoses for just a coupe of dollars more well worth it. The units will need about 2 quarts of fluid, after you set the system up leave it sit for 24 hrs.. After the 24 Do not touch the steering wheel and check the fluid level again to top it off, all the air in the system should float to the fill cap. I thought about it a little and most of your driving is in a straight line, and not many times are you steering in a circle (hard over to hard over). So I think the 1.7 should be fine, I still would like to see/feel the difference of the steering force required to turn the different size helms. I think I will wait for the Miami Boat Show (Feb 11) and take a look at the Teleflex Booth and gather some more info...Take care
outragesteve posted 01-26-2010 08:45 PM ET (US)
Just to put this is perspective:
1. Teleflex packages most steering systems with the 1.7
Tom W Clark posted 01-26-2010 09:33 PM ET (US)
Which is precisely why most vendors have 1.7 packages in stock and are likely to push the 1.7 helms.
There is no "correct" answer. It is personal preference. The beauty of hydraulic steering compared to mechanical is the ease of steering effort.
My opinion is that you do not need to "gear down" the steering of a 16'-7" Whaler from 3 (or even a generous 4.2) turns lock-to-lock with mechanical steering all the way up to 5 turns lock-to-lock when converting to SeaStar Hydraulic Steering in such a boat.

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Author	Topic: Design of Hydraulic Steering Systems
jimh	posted 01-27-2010 08:35 AM ET (US) The following discussion of hydraulic steering systems broke out in the MARKETPLACE.
Russ 13	posted 01-23-2010 11:40 PM ET (US) [Does TELEFLEX] offer a [hydraulic steering] system for over 150-HP. [I need] a system for a single 225-HP Thanks, Russ
outragesteve	posted 01-24-2010 04:11 AM ET (US) Russ: I would not recommend a Baystar system for engines over 150 HP. What is the make/year of your engine? If you are interested in a complete system, send me a private email for details. Thanks
Tom W Clark	posted 01-24-2010 11:36 AM ET (US) Guys, Don't mix up the Sea Star and Bay Star systems. The $550 Bay Star system that outragesteve talks about is for motors less than 150 HP and would be suitable for Rick's boat. For motors over 150 HP, you want the original Sea Star system, though it can be used on smaller motors too. $550 can buy a complete Bay Star system but will only buy the HC5348 cylinder. Helm and hoses is in addition to that cost with the Sea Star system. Rick -- Two questions: Why are you using the Sea Star instead of the Bay Star with your 140? Why the 1.7 helm? That is what is used on big boats like my twin engine 25. I even think it is too slow for my boat but a small boat like yours would be much more fun to drive and less like a school bus with the faster 2.0 or 2.3 helm.
outragesteve	posted 01-24-2010 02:05 PM ET (US) FYI: The 1.7 helm is the "stock" helm Teleflex packages in most of the complete systems. I rigged an Edgewater w/ twin Yamaha 225/4S and the 2.3 used. Although the turns lock-to-lock were less, the steering effort was more. Not a big difference, but the owner did see it over the replaced 1.7 unit. Good luck!
contender	posted 01-24-2010 08:47 PM ET (US) Tom: I was told by a couple of people to use the 1.7 helm. I do not know the difference nor have enough education about them except I would think one of the helms turn faster than the other(do they all have the same number of turns but at different speeds?). I should get off my duff and call and talk to someone at teleflex about the different units. Another question I should have asked here is there anyone with a 17 whaler with a seastar and what helm size are they using. As far as the Baystar/Seastar couple of reasons. I'm pretty much on the border with the HP ratting, so I would feel more at ease with the larger unit, second I seem to see more seastar units than baystar I do not want a replacement parts problem (stupid, maybe but just my thinking) If it does not work/or I do not like it, it would be a replacement(cylinder/helm) for my larger boat. Thanks to everyone for the help
Tom W Clark	posted 01-24-2010 09:33 PM ET (US) There is nothing wrong with using the Sea Star on smaller motors. It is a better system, just more money. The helm size refers to the volume of the pump (the helm is, essentially, a hydraulic pump). Sea Star helms come in 1.3, 1.7, 2.0 and 2.3 cu. in. volumes. As outragesteve explains, the smaller the volume of the pump, the more turns of the steering wheel it will take to move the cylinder (and thus the motor) but the benefit is it will be less effort at the wheel. The analogy is of gearing in your car or bicycle. You can "gear down" your steering by using a smaller capacity helm or you can increase the responsiveness of the steering by increasing the size of the helm. Yes, the 1.7 is by far the most common size and what Whaler used on the big boats that had Sea Star as standard equipment. But for a 16'-7" Whaler with a 140, I think the 1.7 helm would be way to slow. While the 2.3 might be debatable the 2.0 would be good compromise for faster steering response but still be super easy to turn the wheel. I would suggest that the 2.3 might be worth considering, but certainly the 2.0 would be preferable to the 1.7 in this situation.
contender	posted 01-24-2010 10:06 PM ET (US) Tom: I think you are correct and it makes sence, a 2.0 helm sounds the way to go. Another question if the 1.7 is easier to turn would it be benifical to place a knob on the wheel(edson wheel)to be able to turn it faster using the 1.7? My steering wheel is only a 13 inch, less tork than a 15 inch. Thanks again
number9	posted 01-25-2010 04:41 AM ET (US) The smaller helms offer a difference besides less steering effort that some may want to consider. The steering inputs are less/smaller making minor course corrections easier.
number9	posted 01-25-2010 04:58 AM ET (US) This selection guide has most of the info you will need with part numbers. http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/PDFs/SL6001-13-02.pdf And SeaStar owners manual with installation info if you want to pre-read. http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/PDFs/296784-AO.pdf
Tom W Clark	posted 01-25-2010 10:11 AM ET (US) number9 -- You have it backwards. With smaller helms, the steering input must be greater to achieve the same response as a larger helm.
number9	posted 01-25-2010 10:22 AM ET (US) Tom, Smaller input to cylinder = less course correction. Less chance of over correction and having to correct again.
Tom W Clark	posted 01-25-2010 10:32 AM ET (US) Yes, less steerng input means less course correction, however there is no danger of overcorrection, quite the contrary. With the 1.7 helm on my boat it takes a lot of wheel movement to get the boat to change course noticeably. It is an irritating "dead" feel that one can avoid by using a larger helm.
outragesteve	posted 01-25-2010 02:57 PM ET (US) Just a few thoughts...Teleflex packages the 1.7 helm for a reason. There is not a very large difference using a higher voulume helm. The larger capacity helms are generally used in boats with dual steering cylinders, dual steering stations, and boats equipped with auto pilots. Thanks
contender	posted 01-25-2010 05:40 PM ET (US) I sent Teleflex an Email last night, gave them the size of my boat and engine, also told them that the engine would be mounted on a 4 inch set back engine bracket with a 13 inch steering wheel. The response was to use the 1.7 size helm. I never actually talk to anyone about the helm, so I was not able to ask any questions.
outragesteve	posted 01-25-2010 09:08 PM ET (US) 1.7 is fine! I had a customer last month w/ a Montauk/90 Yamaha 90/4 that had a "dead spot" in the steering about in the middle. Lock to lock was fine. It ended up just needing to be bleed (air in cylinder) and now its fine. I've installed 2 of these systems on Montauks in the last year and they both have the 1.7 helms and no complaints! Good luck
Tom W Clark	posted 01-25-2010 10:03 PM ET (US) The helms cost the same. You do not pay more for a larger (or smaller) volume helm. If you want to know how the 1.7 will be on your boat, see how many turns, lock-to-lock it takes with the steering system now. Most mechanical systems are either 4.2 or 3.0 turns lock-to-lock. For comparison, a 1.7 helm with a single cylinder will be about 5 tuns lock-to-lock. I found an old email from Marc Adams at Teleflex. He had answered a query I sent with my complaint that the steering on my boat was too slow with the 1.7 helm. Here is his response (from June 2008): "If you can live with 4 turns lock to lock, I would go with the 2.0 helm. This is the best of both worlds, low turns, not too hard to steer. Going to the 2.4 might be just a little too heavy handed. thanks, Marc" And this is in reference to my 300 HP twin engine Revenge 25. I cannot imagine the drudgery of having to spin the wheel five time in a little Montauk.
contender	posted 01-26-2010 03:05 PM ET (US) Tom, I called Telflex this morning to ask some questions about the different helms, but all the tech's were busy. I left my number but have not heard back and its 4pm at my house. The email I received from Teleflex was from a Marc also but no last name. I'll try to call again tomorrow, would like to speak to someone over the phone to get the correct low down.
contender	posted 01-26-2010 04:28 PM ET (US) 1705 Hrs. Tuesday Just received a call from a Mike at Teleflex in Sarasota Florida. He told me the 1.7 helm would be 5 turns to hard over but easy to turn, the 2.0 would be 4 turns to hard over but harder to turn. He asked me if I had any steering problems at high speed (boat tail walking), I told him no, if my boat starts to tail walk I just trim it in a little or back off the gas some. He did state that small boats that go over 70 MPH (Bass Boats) should use the 2.0 helm. He also recommended (stated they were a lot better) to use the teleflex pro hoses for just a coupe of dollars more well worth it. The units will need about 2 quarts of fluid, after you set the system up leave it sit for 24 hrs.. After the 24 Do not touch the steering wheel and check the fluid level again to top it off, all the air in the system should float to the fill cap. I thought about it a little and most of your driving is in a straight line, and not many times are you steering in a circle (hard over to hard over). So I think the 1.7 should be fine, I still would like to see/feel the difference of the steering force required to turn the different size helms. I think I will wait for the Miami Boat Show (Feb 11) and take a look at the Teleflex Booth and gather some more info...Take care
outragesteve	posted 01-26-2010 08:45 PM ET (US) Just to put this is perspective: 1. Teleflex packages most steering systems with the 1.7
Tom W Clark	posted 01-26-2010 09:33 PM ET (US) Which is precisely why most vendors have 1.7 packages in stock and are likely to push the 1.7 helms. There is no "correct" answer. It is personal preference. The beauty of hydraulic steering compared to mechanical is the ease of steering effort. My opinion is that you do not need to "gear down" the steering of a 16'-7" Whaler from 3 (or even a generous 4.2) turns lock-to-lock with mechanical steering all the way up to 5 turns lock-to-lock when converting to SeaStar Hydraulic Steering in such a boat.