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Author Topic:   Armstrong Bracket on standard notched transom
Buckda posted 06-02-2010 12:42 PM ET (US)   Profile for Buckda   Send Email to Buckda  
Was the Armstrong bracket ever offered on a notched transom 25? I'm considering a used bracket for my 1983 Outrage Cuddy 25', but before making a purchase decision, I need to understand if it will work.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Dave

Tom W Clark posted 06-02-2010 12:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Yes, Armstrong can make a bracket for the notched transom 25 foot Whaler. But why would you want one?

Here are some other examples along the same vein:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/1769842563.html

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage32.html#32-7

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/cetacea/cetaceaPage45.html#45-3

Buckda posted 06-02-2010 01:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Well, wouldn't that solve my 25" shaft problem?
Tom W Clark posted 06-02-2010 01:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
*Maybe.* It also creates others. Have you priced an Armstrong bracket lately?
Tohsgib posted 06-02-2010 01:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Jackplates...$350 and you are done.

Most Armstrong type brackets for dual engines are custom made to the tune of about $2k. You want it to fit your transom like a glove. A "standard" one size fits all is gonna be Shongo.

Buckda posted 06-02-2010 01:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Nick -
Okay, I'm trying to use "Shongo" and help your term catch on, but we have to agree on a common usage/meaning. How would a universal one be "shongo"? Does the word mean "bad"? I thought it meant "ruined" - like - "if you run your motor without oil, it will be shongo"; or "I did the laundry last night and substituted bleach for detergent. Now my favorite pants are shongo."

Help me out here.

L H G posted 06-02-2010 06:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
I see you're getting a lot of valuable information from experienced Armstrong Bracket users.
Jeff posted 06-02-2010 08:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Dave,

It would be interesting to know what the distance on your 25 Outrage Cuddy is from the bottom of the rubrail to the top of the transom cap. Then to get the measurement from Larry on the dimension from the bottom of his rub rail to the top of his bracket. If you could mount the bracket at the dimension of Larry's or less it seems you should be able to run your 25" motors on it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Misc%20Whaler/25. jpg?t=1275523083

In the end you may still need to raise the motors however, since this is a metal bracket (correct?) you may be able have one of your professional welding friends add the needed height in the mounting area.

With the bracket you would have a more open transom area which could be closed in if you wanted down the road and a swim platform as well. Also, you would have a vessel with a greater LOA getting you a better ride, correct?

If you are able to get the bracket used at around the price of 2 nice new jackplates, I would go with the bracket myself.

Tom W Clark posted 06-02-2010 08:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Fellas -- It's not going to work.

The bracket Dave is considering is used and could be bought for not much money. It was on a notched transom Outrage 25 and like it hull it is designed to fit, it accommodates twin 20" shaft length motors.

To put Dave's twin 25" shaft length motors on will require jack plates be added to this Armstrong bracket.

If you are going to invest in two jackplates, new control cables and a hydraulic cylinder and hoses just to make this Armstrong bracket work, then where are the savings?

You could use this bracket on a full transom 25 foot Whaler like Larry's by simply bolting it to the transom five inches higher, but in Dave's case, he is limited by the height of his transom notch.

The former owner of this bracket had a pair of 25" shaft length motors on his Outrage 25 and he had to use a pair of CMC jackplates to do it. It looks awful and the motors still look too low.

I am sure Armstrong could weld a new bracket to both setback Dave's motors, provide a platform AND raise the motors another 5 inches, but I think Dave is looking for low cost solutions, not an extra $2,000-$3,000 expenditure on top of everything else.

DeeVee posted 06-02-2010 09:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Dave,

This gentleman used a somewhat drastic solution to the problem. He wanted counter rotating Etec 150's which are not available in 20" shaft length.

He decided to have the transom raised 5".

http://www.whalercentral.com/userphotogallery_3.php?photo_id=687

http://www.whalercentral.com/userphotogallery_3.php?photo_id=702 .

Doug Vazquez

Jeff posted 06-02-2010 10:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Tom,

I know the bracket Dave is thinking about as I found it for him. Yes, the previous owner had set backs on this bracket though, it would be interesting to hear from the owner actually why they choose that and what their take was on the whole set up. I hope Dave is able to get a hold of him.

Before saying it will not work for sure, I would be interested in hearing Larry's take on where the top of the bracket would need to end up being mounted to match his set up. And whether or not Dave could match that mounting height on his notched transom. Considering he is one of few I know of with an Armstrong bracket on a 25 we would be able to provide actual measurements.

Also, could the bracket be altered to make the 25" shafts work with some metal crafting if needed?

Finally, if it ends up costing more is the extra expense worth it if there are benefits to this set up and if you actually end up with a more capable boat?

Here is a 25 Revenge with twin Mercury 135 OptiMax in what look to be 25" Shafts on what looks to be an Armstrong Bracket. The members GMAIL address is listed in his profile. It would be interesting to hear the details on this vessel.
http://www.whalercentral.com/infusions/personal_page/view_personal_page. php?user_id=16669

Jeff posted 06-02-2010 11:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Sorry that 25 Revenge has a notched transom with twin Mercury 135 OptiMax in what look to be 25" shafts lenghts on what looks to be an Armstrong Bracket without any kind of jackplates.
Tohsgib posted 06-03-2010 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Dave you are on the right track. It means everything you said. It is kinda like "Shot" from the 80's. Dude those jeans are shot. Man I was so drunk last night, I was shot. My engine threw a rod, she's shot. That dude's hairdoo is shot. etc.

Shongo means everything in a more negative way. It can mean Dude those jeans are shongo. My engine threw a rod, she's shongo. That dude's hairdoo is shongo. You can see how it does not fit the drunk thing...but since you were so drunk your night turned out to be shongo. etc. Lipstick on a pig is a good definition of shongo in many forms. 1) it looks shongo. 2)it does not make the pig more appealling, makes it goofy or shongo 3)it's shongo!

As far as my statement is if it was not made for the boat(which I now found out it is) it would probably look shongo because it would look like an afterthought, not because it would ruin the boat or it's performance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/BiggieFL/misc%20pics/default.jpg

msl posted 06-03-2010 12:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for msl  Send Email to msl     
I have been reading this post along with the other similar post. You will need to have atleast 8 inches of set back on the jackplate in order to achieve the verticle 5 inches of raise for 25 inch shaft. You are limited to only a few companies, but your best shot would be using a CMC or Bob's jackplate. I currently have Panther Marine jackplates(http://www.marinetech.info/pmarine/pmarine_detail.php?sku=550300)on my 25 outrage, which are worthless in saltwater. I have a pair of 150 Opti-Max's, with four blade 21 pitch props and at WOT on a lite load she will reach 52mph, on a heavy load WOT is around 48 MPH. For comfortable cruise I usually run her around 3800 to 4000 RPM and get between 30 to 36 MPH depending on the sea conditions. I would never consider puting an armstrong bracket on a 25 outrage unless you were going to close the transom, jackplates are your cheapest and most durable solution.
Tom W Clark posted 06-03-2010 04:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Doug -- That was a great job that guy did on raising his transom. It looks wonderful as if the boat were made that way.

Dave could do the same thing; rebuild the transom extending it up by five inches then re-gelcoating the entire hull after having disassembled it and flipping it like that guy did.

Dave could have it all done by a professional too. It would probably only cost $10,000-$25,000 to do so. But somehow, I think Dave is looking for low cost solutions to his dilemma.

Tom W Clark posted 06-03-2010 04:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Jeff -- I just measured the depth of the notch on my 25 foot Whaler. I assume it is the exact same as Dave's 25 foot Whaler.

Measured from the bottom of the rub rail receiver track to the top of the transom, along the slope of the transom, it measures 13".

If Larry could measure his boat we would know how the two dimensions compare. However, I think Larry is more interested in making sarcastic comments than actually doing anything helpful or useful to fellow Whaler owners.

By my estimates, Larry's Armstrong bracket is 2 - 3 inches higher than the transom of a notched 25 footer.

We would also need to know the angle of Larry's bracket and the angle of the bracket under consideration as well as their setback distances in order to make a valid comparison.

Remember, Dave's goal is to make his 25" shaft length motors work on his transom which is designed for 20" shaft length motors. Getting this bracket to fit *might* be possible but if it does not provide a net increase of 5 inches of lift, then what's the point?

His boat is useable now, he just wants to get the motors where they need to be without spending a ton of money.

contender posted 06-03-2010 08:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
Buckda: Yes a full size bracket will work on your boat. One of the reasons full size, full transom brackets were made were for diving platforms. These brackets are great for diving and getting back in the boat. I have one on my contender made by B/Bracket, It was made out of a type of alum diamond plate (has three lines parallel to three lines) I have a ladder that folds under the bracket and out of the way when not in use. I love it.
DeeVee posted 06-03-2010 11:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Tom,

"Dave could have it all done by a professional too. It would probably only cost $10,000-$25,000 to do so."

That is why I characterized the solution as "drastic".

Dave may not have to re-gelcoat the entire boat if he were to choose the "drastic" solution. Not doubt it would still definately be an expensive solution.

Doug

Plotman posted 06-04-2010 08:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
I don't see why you couldn't take the armstrong bracket you purchase to a good metal fabricator and have the engine attachment points raised 5". I would think you could have the plate extended upwards and new mounting holes drilled fairly easily. It would look fine. The bracket would need to be repainted though.

I agree that putting jackplates on a bracket would be truly messed up.

Either that, or check out your local tech college and take a welding class. That's what I did, and I got pretty good. Was something like $120 for a semester of Tuesday evenings. Once you were about halfway through the class, you could even bring in projects, and the instructor would help you. I now firmly believe that everybody should learn how to weld. I have already taught my 13 year old son - he's pretty decent with the MIG set up, and beginning to learn to TIG weld. My 10 year old daughter has shown interest as well.

I'm planning on taking a machining class in the fall at the same place. A year from now, I'll probably have a small bridgeport in the garage, and then I'll be truly dangerous.

Tom W Clark posted 06-04-2010 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Plotman -- No doubt this bracket could be modified by a welder to accomplish the lift needed just as any of several other hardware solutions could be used to modify this bracket.

Repainting is not an added expense in this case because the bracket is so crusty from years of saltwater use in Texas that it needs repainting now, as is.

I took a weekend welding class. It was fun. Welding is not that difficult. On the recommendation of a knowledgeable CW member, I bought myself a good little MIG welder that paid for itself very quickly.

$120 for a semester of Tuesday evenings sounds like a real deal. For Dave, he could have his bracket done by the end of the summer. It would cost $650 for the bracket, $120 for the class, what? $50 to repaint it, maybe $30 for miscellaneous shop supplies and the bracket is ready to be installed for only $800, but summer is over.

It's still looking like your original recommendation of just buying a pair of Slidemaster jackplates is the simplest and most economical solution.

Tom W Clark posted 06-04-2010 10:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Rick -- I agree with you. A full size bracket will work on Dave's boat. But that's not the question.

The question is, will this particular used bracket work, and no, it won't, not as is.

You do make a very good point about the platform on a bracket being very useful for diving. For SCUBA diving, a bracket with platform on a notched transom is even more useful than a bracket on a full transom because egress from the cockpit is so much easier.

However, I'm not sure Dave does a lot of SCUBA diving in the Great Lakes.

Tom W Clark posted 06-04-2010 10:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Doug -- Yes, of course Dave's transom could be rebuilt without gelcoating the entire boat. I was just trying to drive home a point about the suggestion. That is, Dave is looking for an economical solution to his dilemma and the recommendations being offered continue to completely defeat that goal.

Don McIntrye had the transom of his Outrage 21 rebuilt because it was rotten. He did not extend it upwards and it was only for a single. My recollection is that it cost $4700 to do that work and that was ten or more years ago.

Dave has a larger transom that needs to support twins. Even limited to just the rebuild of the transom, it would be a very expensive proposition, though I am sure Dave could enroll in a fiberglass class and a carpentry class at the local Voc-Tech for a lot less than that ;-)

Tohsgib posted 06-04-2010 10:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
MSL...you are incorrect. Theoretically for an engine to be raised 5" it would need a larger setback. This engine is already 5" too long so a 2" setback would work as he needs to simply raise them to a good height, not over raise them and needing to get into clean water. In his case it would be harder to find a plate that lifts high enough because I would personally want to raise them 7 or 8" on a 5-6" setback and most plates only go 4-6".
outragesteve posted 06-04-2010 03:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for outragesteve  Send Email to outragesteve     
Just an observation. Regardless on type of bracket, etc., mounting twin 25" engines where the application calls for 20" engines: Change the lower unit drive/shift shafts and remove factory 5" spacer! This can be accomplished on many Mercury and Yamaha engines. If fact, a few years ago I wanted to repower my 1989 22' Outrage with twin Yamaha 115 four strokes. That engine is not avaliable in a counter (left) hand lower in the 20" model. I could have purchased a 25" LF115 and changed the drive shaft and shift shaft to 20" parts. The 5" adapter is not used when remounting the 20" lower unit. Presto: Yamaha 115 Four Stroke with counter rotated lower unit in a 20" version! Much cheaper than jack plates, lifts, fiberglass repairs and it is a very clean conversation. Good kuck!
Tom W Clark posted 06-04-2010 04:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Steve -- There is no five inch spacer. It is the midsection that is cast as a 25" shaft length motor part.

The drive shaft on the lower unit can be cut down, no problem. I did that myself on one of my motors, but there is no practical way to swap out a midsection as that is essentially the back bone of the whole motor.

Buckda posted 06-04-2010 04:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Thanks for the spirited and insightful debate. I think I'm going to sit tight where I am for the moment and make incremental adjustments as I dial in this boat. There are other areas that need more urgent attention, as the motors run very well and while performance is somewhat less than my 18' with twin 90's, I think I can live with it for the moment while I rework wiring, lighting, upholstery, new rubrail, gelcoat restoration, bottom paint removal, etc.

As I allocate resources to this project and prioritize that list, it has become clear that this is a "nice to do" item in a sea of "more important to do" items.

Probably will become a fall/winter/early spring project.

Dave

DeeVee posted 06-05-2010 12:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Tom,

"Doug -- Yes, of course Dave's transom could be rebuilt without gelcoating the entire boat. I was just trying to drive home a point about the suggestion. That is, Dave is looking for an economical solution to his dilemma and the recommendations being offered continue to completely defeat that goal."

Point well taken.

Dave,

It sounds like you are having a lot of fun with the new boat. I look forward to hearing of your progress.

Doug Vazquez

Plotman posted 06-07-2010 08:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
Dave-

I know I'm not going to get around to rigging up my fixed jackplates this summer, (fixing the nonskid on the 15 where I took off a trolling motor is going to come first) but I have the aluminum for a set of static brackets, and the layout all done. If you want, I'll spend the hour or so needed to finish them up and send them to you. If you like them, send me a check for the cost of materials and shipping. If not, send em back and well call it good. I wouldn't care if you put them on before you decide. Total cost for 2 pairs is going to be under $100 shipped. Let me know.

David

Tom W Clark posted 06-08-2010 01:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Dave,

I was going to suggest that if you wanted to work on a plan for brackets like David's, I would be happy to fabricate them if you ordered the aluminum online for pickup in Seattle; I have a full shop after all.

I even have two powdercoating shops in my neighborhood as well as an anodizer just a few miles away. You pay for the materials.

But I think you're getting a better deal with David's offer...

Buckda posted 02-03-2011 05:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Dave Thickens -

I've e-mailed you about your offer a couple times, any chance you received those e-mails?

Sorry to call you out here, but I can't seem to get hold of you.

Dave

Mike Kub posted 02-03-2011 08:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Kub  Send Email to Mike Kub     
This for Buckda re. the twin 90 hps. set back on the outrage 18. How did that work out?
Jeff posted 02-03-2011 08:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Mike,

Since you are newer here may I offer some suggestions. Instead of taking this thread off topic I would suggest starting a new thread on said topic, using the search function to find old threads that cover said topic such as this one ([url]http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005982.html[/url) or emailing Dave directly. Otherwise Jimh is likely to just remove your posting in an effort to keep things on topic and organized.

Jeff posted 02-03-2011 08:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/005982.html
Buckda posted 02-08-2011 10:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Just circling back. One of the questions that I believe was asked in this thread is if the Hynautics steering ram was compatible with the new Teleflex steering ram/cylinders. I just spoke with Teleflex technical support, and the answer is "yes".

So, if I need to change steering rams, I'll be able to do so.

It looks like I'm going to go with the simple aluminum brackets that David Thickens and Tom Clark discussed further up in this thread. I doubt it will be the "prettiest" solution, but if it improves my fuel economy as much as it *should*, based on reports of fuel economy from other members with 25' hulls, then I wont' really care about how it works...at least for now.

Tohsgib posted 02-08-2011 12:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Dave my neighbor had a 21 Robalo with a notched transom and he put a custom Armstrong fullwidth bracket on his with a single engine. At first I was kinda puzzled(maybe because it was powdercoated YELLOW) but inside the boat it was cool. You can literally walk out the back onto the transom. With twins you would not see inside the boat as much and it would look even cooler. If having it made I would ask if they could do something where it would give you the raise you need but be able to be modified down the road to accomodate 20" engines if you repower. Then again 25's are easier to find in that size and it will keep the powerheads above water which is a plus on a bracket.

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