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Canvas Modifications - 25 Outrage Cuddy
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Canvas Modifications - 25 Outrage Cuddy
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| Author | Topic: Canvas Modifications - 25 Outrage Cuddy |
| Buckda |
posted 01-20-2011 10:09 PM ET (US)  
The original canvas weather system was never fully designed/upgraded to fit the 25 Outrage Cuddy boats, and what Whaler did come up with was a rather boxy design that doesn't seem to fit the aesthetics that a classic Mills Weather System does. ...so I'm working up some concepts for adding canvas to my 25' Outrage Cuddy. Pardon the crude photoshop skills. Here's what I have so far: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32172747&l=00a9dc1195& id=1383963684 I've attempted to mimic the Mills system by adding a convertible gear shelter that would cover the cockpit from the cuddy to the console, and then going with a windshield and flying top system much like the design for the open Outrage 25. This has a couple benefits and a few drawbacks. The benefits include that it provides additional water-resistant gear shelter, even if the flying top is down, it provides decreased windage than the "box" created by the windshield attached to the cuddy and a larger sun top, and the windshield is near vertical, which should help with visibility. I also think it would look better than the "box". The drawbacks are that it will make ingress and egress from the cuddy a bit tougher - - you'll have to stoop under the gear shelter. It also reduces the usability of the space in front of the console for passengers when the canvas is set. This may make it difficult to go forward to man lines, etc without going through the cuddy hatch on the bow. Also, it utilizes two extra SS Bows, meaning that it will have additional cost to produce. Your constructive feedback is appreciated. Dave |
| Buckda |
posted 01-20-2011 10:17 PM ET (US)
Here is an illustration of the current, woefully inadequate setup: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31716938&l=ddbea3d901& id=1383963684 I don't believe that the windshield is OEM, but I do believe that the sun top is. It makes no difference, as it will have to go. I'd probably buy the Mills flying top for the 25 and then have a local shop make the shelter and connecting canvas from there. You can see the Mills design for the open outrage in the first few photos on CETECEA page 1. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-20-2011 11:47 PM ET (US)
Yes, I think your plan is a good one Dave. It solves the biggest problem of all, which you don't mention, which is the plastic windshield is *f a r* too far away from the helmsman in the OE configuration. By moving the windshield closer to the helmsman's face, visibility will be greatly improved. It looks good too. |
| Peter |
posted 01-21-2011 07:53 AM ET (US)
Boat design is all about trade-off's. I think your trade-off's are worth doing it. It certainly looks better in profile. Regarding design, I think the frame needs to be reversed -- long bow on the dodger needs to extend towards the stern rather than towards the bow. The dodger should stay "up" or deployed without having to lash it down at the gunnel. In your design, it cannot do that. |
| K Albus |
posted 01-21-2011 08:52 AM ET (US)
My only recommendation for you is to have your windshield made from Strataglass. It costs a little bit extra, but it provides much better visibility with much less distortion. When I had my canvas set made, the front windshield was originally made from the cheaper clear vinyl. The vinyl was quite wavy and the view was distorted. After a few trips with the cheap vinyl windshield, I had it replaced with Strataglass. The Strataglass is substantially better. Otherwise, I like the looks of your design. |
| ConB |
posted 01-21-2011 09:01 AM ET (US)
Dave, have you thought about moving the sun top aft to get the windshield right? Con |
| jimh |
posted 01-21-2011 09:20 AM ET (US)
If the original Sun Top now on the boat is made by Wm. J Mills & Co., it should have some value and can be sold to help pay for the new canvas. I thought your photograph-sketch was very well done. It showed the canvas concept in an excellent fashion. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 09:30 AM ET (US)
@Peter - Yes, I agree. I realized that after I studied the photo more closely. When I started messing around with the design, I was trying to get length/dimensions right. Of particular concern is the tradeoff for the companionway hatch clearance. If you provide enough for it to open fully, you restrict the operator's vision forward, if you put it too low, then it may be difficult to get into the cuddy (headroom). In any event, the line was set up first to make sure it would provide enough height to allow the cuddy hatch to open *far enough*, and to ensure that the canvas could stow forward without having to be mounted on sliders, like the shelter on the open Outrage. @Kevin - Thanks for that bit of insight from your experience. In your opinion, is strataglass more difficult to stow without scratching? I believe this will be a tradeoff. @Tom - Thanks. I think it may need a few more tweaks, and of course the touch of a canvas craftsman's hands...but I also think it will look pretty good when finished. Note: the color is simply there to illustrate where the canvas will be. I'm considering going with a darker (Navy) Blue for this boat. @Con - Yes, the SunTop will likely be kept aboard the boat at least this summer. With the budget I have and the other projects on the list for this spring, it is likely that the forward shelter will be the only thing that gets done on the canvas front. I'll probably ask my canvas guy to shorten the windshield to attach to the shelter for the short-term - to keep the rain out of my face. That would entail moving the suntop back, but it won't be the ultimate solution. In fact, I'm still working through if I'm going to put a modified hard top on the boat. I may do a mock up of that as well, just for grins and giggles, but that is off on the horizon for things I may do. I've got to focus on some basic restoration this year, but last year's trips confirmed in my mind that canvas/shelter is high on the priorities this year. |
| K Albus |
posted 01-21-2011 10:31 AM ET (US)
I don't have a good answer for you on the stowage question, Dave. So far I have just stowed my windshield by laying it flat, either with or without a beach towel on each side of it for scratch protection. For winter storage, I have the windshield laying flat on a spare bed in my home. I used my canvas a good bit last year, and so far I have not noticed any significant scratching. It is my understanding that Strataglass can be loosely rolled up for stowage, and that you should use an old bed sheet when rolling it up to prevent the Strataglass from making contact with itself. I went to a local fabric store and got a couple of large cardboard tubes to use for rolling up my canvas, but I haven't really used them (except for an initial trial run). I had planned to have a couple of "boots" made in which to store the rolled canvas and windshield pieces, but I never got around to it. My plan was to have three separate boots - one for the forward shelter pieces, one for the front and side window pieces, and one for the rear curtain. |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 01-21-2011 10:31 AM ET (US)
Dave - Also play with the arc of the main poles and where both will need to lay in storage. What you don't want is to obstruct either your vision or the opening or closing of the hatch. Worst case scenario would be having to disconnect from the brackets and move it. Second worst case is having to place on the gunnels, a track. D |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 11:23 AM ET (US)
Ok. I've revised the image to include the bows in the correct configuration and sized to ensure they will stow forward of the hatch and nest together if moved forward. This should allow them to be mounted like the open Outrage on the inside of the gunwales. This image also shows a re-mounted sun-top (moved aft) to accomodate the shelter. Add a windshield and I think we're in business for all but the coldest and rainiest days....and probably for less than $600. Here it is: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32173970&l=1a4882ccfd& id=1383963684 |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-21-2011 11:28 AM ET (US)
Dave -- Look at your line of sight forward. The shelter is tall enough (as drawn) to block a significant portion of your view of the water in front of the boat. The forward bow in the shelter should be lowered enough for you at least have a chance of getting a glimpse of the bow of the boat. |
| themclos |
posted 01-21-2011 11:40 AM ET (US)
Dave, I think you have the right idea. I am wrestling with the same problem with my 22 Outrage Cuddy. I think the concessions are a reasonable trade-off for the protection. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting. Do you mind if I steal shamelessly from what you designed? Dan |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 11:40 AM ET (US)
Tom - I've thought of that. There are a couple of things. First, I think it's impossible to lower the bow and still have clearance for the companionway hatch to open to the cuddy. Second, if I include a window on the front of the shelter, like on the open Outrages, that will allow me to see forward. I'm not sure if that will be enough or not. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-21-2011 11:49 AM ET (US)
Mock it up. A window in the shelter is a good idea but you'll only be able to see through it if you duck. As drawn the bows of the shelter are exactly where they block the most important part of you field of vision. Use light and inexpensive PVC pipe to make mockups of the bows. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 11:50 AM ET (US)
@Dan - No worries at all. I've admittedly stolen shamelessly from the excellent designs at Mills for the open version of this boat. I just wish they had already worked a good solution so we wouldn't have to work so hard. :) |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 12:09 PM ET (US)
If I terminate the shelter slightly forward, there may be a better view through the forward window. We need a very good broadside image of Whale Lure with the canvas set to see how Mills did it. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 12:39 PM ET (US)
Here is an image taken from the helm when running on plane. In this image, I have the forward hatch open (it rained the night prior and I was using the air flow to dry out things). http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32174344&l=b7f4ed4d6a&id=138396368 As you can see, the view is somewhat obstructed by this, however, I don't think it would be more than with the canvas shelter, especially if there were a forward window for additional visibility. Here's what it looked like from the side: |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 12:42 PM ET (US)
...Again with the bad link. Substitute this for the first link in the immediate post above. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32174344&l=b7f4ed4d6a& id=1383963684 |
| Peter |
posted 01-21-2011 12:50 PM ET (US)
I share Tom's concern when boat is on plane. I hate to say this but the Revenge 25 was Whaler's better answer for boaters trying to stay out of the weather while underway. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 12:55 PM ET (US)
I don't know. Here's what my view was from the helm on my 18' Outrage with full canvas. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32174353&l=aea142143c& id=1383963684 I do realize that this is a larger boat and there is more bow forward, but I think it will work, as there were no problems with visibility on the 18. I think it is doable, I just need to tweak it a little. As Tom says, perhaps mocking it up will be the best route...it's just that I'll have to wait a couple months for the snow to melt to get a chance.... |
| JMARTIN |
posted 01-21-2011 01:46 PM ET (US)
I agree with Peter. Your mock up looks like the lines of a Revenge. John |
| Jeff |
posted 01-21-2011 01:58 PM ET (US)
Here was my attempt back in the fall using a 22' standard Outrage Mills Bimini and windscreen and building off of that. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31130094&l=d9cc72f423& id=1001793531 |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 03:52 PM ET (US)
Guys - The primary challenge is providing clearance for the companionway hatch. a very low shelter like Jeff describes is just not workable. |
| K Albus |
posted 01-21-2011 04:23 PM ET (US)
Dave, I personally don't think the obstruction of your view will be a big issue. It hasn't been for me, and you've seen all of the canvas obstructing the view of the front of my boat. It's not like you're going to be running your boat through a slalom course on a regular basis. |
| ConB |
posted 01-21-2011 04:40 PM ET (US)
I have never been up close to an Outrage Cuddy, so this suggestion is a long shot, but can the hatch be reworked into a sliding hatch with a sea hood? http://www.atomvoyages.com/images/AtomHatch02kb54.JPG Con |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 04:44 PM ET (US)
You will note in the light blue canvas mock ups (above) that the second one has an "alligator mouth" at the front showing how the hatch has to swing. If I disregard that in favor of a much tighter fit for getting into and out of the cuddy, I can get this: (I've mocked up what a typical cruising setup might look like, utilizing my current sun top and adding a windshield. The second image includes side curtains, and the third, the aft curtain). http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32175190&l=ab451f4e26& id=1383963684 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32175191&l=32b366a18f& id=1383963684 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32175189&l=48f74751eb& id=1383963684 Also remember the requirement that the bows for the shelter can nest and be stowed when not in use. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-21-2011 04:45 PM ET (US)
Also - I just want to say that I do appreciate all the spirited feedback and discussion we're having about this. I want it to be the best it can be, realizing that there will be some compromises... |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 01-22-2011 10:39 AM ET (US)
If you can work out the angle for the maximum that the hatch would open before contacting the canvas, lock the hatch in place and wander in and out of the cuddy about a dozen times to see if you would want it. One option I mentioned in another post was to consider locating the windshield from another cuddy, and snap the windshield to the top of that. I think I may have sent pics or a link earlier. Regarding the issue of going forward for lines; do you go into the cabin and up through the hatch or go for the ballet routine (BTDT as probably most of have at least once) up the sides... You will probably not go the ballet route if the side curtains are up. Too far. But probably would if just the forward shelter is up. Here's a thought: have the canvas maker install a handhold close to where the poles are under the canvas. Just something to grab hold of if the hull starts to roll in the wrong direction. Once nice thinking about posting a design is that it will give you access to all sorts of history from the rest of us. Best - Don |
| Buckda |
posted 01-22-2011 08:03 PM ET (US)
Thanks, Don - and you're right. I actually did see the "grab rail" concept don very well this summer aboard the "DAHLFIN" - Bonnie Dahl's sailboat - when I saw it laying at the America dock on Isle Royale. I think that is an excellent suggestion. Regarding the windshield from the Revenge Cuddy design, I'm not sure that I really like that look, and believe that sourcing such a windshield will be out of my budget, regardless. Thank you again for the suggestions! Dave |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-23-2011 12:23 PM ET (US)
Dave -- One way around the hatch dilemma would be to have a roll-up panel sewn into the shelter å la the Mills Forward Shelter that would allow you to open the hatch as much as you like if you roll up the panel up. This would be useful at camp. |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 01-24-2011 05:12 AM ET (US)
Dave - Tom's got an excellent suggestion. In the W/T series with the sliding ladder and grab rails we use it constantly, avoiding the dance down the sides. Could you mount one or two folding steps on port side bulkhead to use? Best - Don |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 01-24-2011 05:13 AM ET (US)
Further note...only downside is the seams can leak unless really thought out during the design and construction stage. BTDT. |
| Buckda |
posted 01-24-2011 10:11 AM ET (US)
Thanks guys. I think that the latest design allows for this. I may have to move the forward bow aft a little further, but I think that might work. |
| andygere |
posted 01-24-2011 04:46 PM ET (US)
Dave, you are on the right track here and I'm anxious to see how it turns out. As Tom suggests, a mock up is really the way to go, both for fit and aesthetics. Small diameter PVC pipe/fittings, a cheap blue tarp, a roll of duct tape and you are off to the races. Perhaps your canvas guy will give you a bit of a discount for making the patterns. In terms of storing the Stratoglass windscreen, could some straps be incorporated under the sun top so this it could be stored flat (and overhead) when not in use? Some type of fabric envelope to slip it into first would alleviate issues with scratching. |
| Buckda |
posted 02-03-2011 10:03 PM ET (US)
I've contacted a local canvas craftsman whose work comes highly recommended, and his previous work has also won him some awards. He should be getting me some designs in the next few days - but he thinks this basic concept is very workable. I'll keep you posted on the final project. Dave |
| Buckda |
posted 03-02-2011 08:13 PM ET (US)
We're finally zeroing in on the final design. Here's the latest that is with the canvasmaker: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32307604&l=771d192493& id=1383963684 Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, insight and ideas for this project. I should have the quotes in over the weekend and will be making my decision then. |
| home Aside |
posted 03-03-2011 08:46 AM ET (US)
Dave, I think it looks good, although I think I would make the flytop a little longer (extend a little further behind the pilot seat/leaning post. And of course your canvas maker of choice will be advised of future side curtain, drop curtain additions. I might have missed it, but will the forward shelter have a window in front? If so will it be zippered, so it can be rolled up similar to the center of the windshield on my Revenge? Pat |
| Buckda |
posted 03-03-2011 09:37 AM ET (US)
Hi Pat - Yes - a canvas window in the front. I'm waiting on some OEM flying top specs/measurements from LHG on his 25 to make the flying top design final. Canvas guy and I are going back and forth on 2-bow vs. 3-bow system and some additional little details. The windshield will be made from 40 mil Strataglass for clarity and visibility, as recommended above. Unfortunately, budget continues to play a role in what I want vs what I'll actually end up with - but so far, I think we're in a decent place, with flexibility to add additional elements as we go. He knows fully about the plan to enclose the space in the long run. I may go ahead a splurge on the side curtains this year too...we'll see how the pricing comes in on the Cuddy cushion upholstery and some of the other projects. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 03-03-2011 10:46 AM ET (US)
That looks really good Dave. I would not enlarge the top at all. It appears very close to the OE Mills. Have you thought of just ordering a Mills Flying Top and Windshield and then having a local shop just connect the dots with a two-bow shelter between the cuddy and the windshield? |
| Buckda |
posted 03-03-2011 12:02 PM ET (US)
Tom - The thought more than crossed my mind - but the shipping kills the slight price advantage of going that route. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-03-2011 12:43 PM ET (US)
For reference: the Mills flying top is about $879, and about $160 to ship. The windshield is $479 plus shipping - and my guy is definitely beating that. He's a little higher on the flying top, but that quote includes a third bow - it will come down slightly if we go with the two bow setup...and he's using 1" Stainless Steel (SS) Tubing, instead of Mills' 7/8" SS tubing. Overall, I think he's remaining pretty competitive, and he comes pretty highly recommended from the local sailing and motorboating community, including a canvas design award from the Marine Fabricators Association. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-03-2011 12:47 PM ET (US)
I will also say here that if Mills had a similar design for this boat (which they don't), I'd be purchasing it all from them just because they'd have already worked the bugs out of the system. Since they don't offer this, I feel like I'm taking a chance on a local guy - I've done a lot of research and asked a lot of questions of him to try to minimize the risk of paying a lot of money for a top I'm not happy with - but I am adequately confident that he's going to do a good job or work to make it right if I'm not happy. |
| themclos |
posted 03-03-2011 01:07 PM ET (US)
Dave, Is the thought that the forward shelter and the flying top would store forward, on the cuddy, just forward of hatch, where the cuddy top steps down? Dan |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 03-03-2011 01:47 PM ET (US)
Dave - Check FB. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-03-2011 02:34 PM ET (US)
Dan - Yes, and barring that, making the units removable through quick release hinges. |
| L H G |
posted 03-03-2011 02:46 PM ET (US)
Tom's suggestion is the same that I proposed earlier, and it is a good one. If you get the Mills Flying Top and Windshield, you'll be way ahead. With the top installed identical to the way it would be installed on the Outrage, you could then use Mills Side Curtains, and Aft Curtain like I have. The Flying Top rests on the bow gunwale when stowed, inside the rails. 1" bows sound nice, but they are heavier than needed and overkill. Mills would certainly be using them if they were necessary. On any of my boats, I have not found any problem at all with the 7/8" size. Your design drawing looks pretty good, and is on the right track. Check out the various photos of mine with canvas set in the Sail-Logs and Rendezvous sections, and those should help you determine if going all Mills except Shelter makes sense. On this, I would not get aftermarket stuff to save a few bucks. For your application, the canvas is one of your most important needs. If you are going Pacific Blue color, I have a used Mills Windshield in pretty good condition if you are interested that I could give you for $250. But I have got to say, classic Toast sunbrella would be really nice on the boat. |
| L H G |
posted 03-03-2011 03:07 PM ET (US)
Further to above, here's another idea for you if you decide to go "mostly Mills". Order the Mills Forward Shelter, material only, since with the bows mounting inside the the gunwales, they won't work. But your canvas guy could then simply alter the forward part of the Shelter, moving the intact window detailing aft, and make new gunwale or cuddy side mounted SS bows. This way you'd save a lot of custom canvas work and you know the shelter portion would mate perfectly with the bottom of the Windshield. Or Mills might even make the Shelter canvas for you minus the the complicated front window portion, which I'm sure is a large portion of the cost. If this was my boat, it is exacly how I would do it. I have yet to see any custom canvas work that holds a candle to Mills design and quality. That includes all of the newer canvas Boston Whaler is now using from Great Lakes. The greater percentage of your enclosure that is Mills, the better it will be. |
| Buckda |
posted 03-08-2011 05:01 PM ET (US)
Price is settled. Waiting on a few final details. I also just got my cabin cushions back from the upholsterer. I had these covered in Toast Sunbrella with a vinyl backing. I know - not OEM, but I think it will look good and be easy to keep clean and maintain. The wood cabin hatches are finished, so I'll be re-installing that in a few days. Things are starting to come together - I should have the canvas complete and installed by the end of April. |
| andygere |
posted 03-08-2011 07:54 PM ET (US)
Dave, I'd love to see the photos of your cushions, Toast Sunbrella is what I had in mind for mine. Did you reuse the OEM vinyl, or just find something close? I like the vinyl backing because you can flip them over and have a kid proof, fisherman proof surface that won't get stained as easily. Would you be willing to share what it cost you to have them redone? I'm almost afraid to ask... |
| Buckda |
posted 03-08-2011 08:05 PM ET (US)
Hi Andy - I'm afraid the previous cushions were in pretty bad shape - the zippers had completely corroded away, so I had to cut the old fabric off. The foam inside was badly stained, and the vinyl undersides had a lot of mildew on the inside...so I scrapped the whole lot and went with new, (taller) and denser foam and new vinyl and fabric. The vinyl I chose is a bit softer than the OEM parchment stuff, and it closely matches the color of the Toast Sunbrella.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1931760218729&set=a. 1443932183333.2062275.1383963684
|
| andygere |
posted 03-09-2011 04:01 PM ET (US)
The new cushions look great, can't wait to see them in the boat. How thick are they, and what's the spec on the foam that you used? |
| Buckda |
posted 03-09-2011 05:52 PM ET (US)
Andy -- I don't have the exact spec on the foam - I told them I wanted one step firmer than the current foam that's on current Whalers and a touch thicker. The thickness is 3 inches vs. the old stuff that was 2 3/4 inches. |
| L H G |
posted 04-21-2011 07:05 PM ET (US)
Dave - per your request, here are the dimensions of the Mills Flying Top from my 25 Outrage. First of all, to place this in its proper location in the boat, the front bow of the Top lines up vertically with the top of the console rail. It is directly above it. The bow-to-stern length of the top is 54" at the center(midship). The straight across width of the top is 66", at the bottom edges. As you know, the top is curved up from both sides, so the actual width of the Sunbrella material seems to be more like 68"-69". That dimension was hard to measure exactly. At the top of the front bow, the midship height above the boat floor is 72-1/2". At the rear bow, the same height is 76" At the center, measuring to underside of canvas, ht is 74". This would be where the steering wheel is approximately. |
| Buckda |
posted 04-21-2011 09:06 PM ET (US)
Thanks Larry. Just in time too...we go into the shop tomorrow for bow/framework construction. It's much narrower at the top than I thought. I knew it was narrower than at the gunwale, but that's much narrower. Thanks again...you just saved me some headaches tomorrow. Dave |
| Buckda |
posted 05-03-2011 11:36 AM ET (US)
After a slight delay - the framework is finished: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2063122422702&set=a. 1987401129717.2118996.1383963684&type=1 They're starting the sewing today and I should get a chance to see the shelter in pretty good shape tomorrow. I'll post detail photos once the project is complete. |
| themclos |
posted 05-03-2011 12:04 PM ET (US)
Dave, People need to have Facebook accounts to see the picture. The framework is looking good. I am anxious to see the canvas mounted. Dan |
| Buckda |
posted 05-03-2011 12:09 PM ET (US)
Dan - That should be a public link that EVERYONE can see. If it is not, please let me know - but I just rechecked the privacy settings for that photo and it was set to "everyone". |
| themclos |
posted 05-03-2011 02:14 PM ET (US)
Dave, I am still being prompted to login to see the picture. Dan |
| dscew |
posted 05-03-2011 02:17 PM ET (US)
Me too, I don't have a facebook account--maybe that's what's wrong. Zukkerberg wants my information. |
| Buckda |
posted 05-03-2011 04:02 PM ET (US)
Hang on then - I'll post it to a photobucket account. For some reason, McAfee doesn't like Photobucket, so it's a P.I.T.A. to post photos there for me. I'll post the link once I have photos uploaded. Sorry for the hassle - I guess I though "everyone" meant "everyone" and not "everyone who has a facebook account". |
| Buckda |
posted 05-03-2011 04:13 PM ET (US)
Here was the final mock-up for the design that I provided to the canvas maker: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/ 1983%20Outrage%2025%20Cuddy%20Restoration/Canvas%20Project/ CanvasConcept4toast.jpg Here is where we were as of yesterday: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/ 1983%20Outrage%2025%20Cuddy%20Restoration/Canvas%20Project/ IMG-20110502-00084.jpg Please let me know if these links don't work or aren't publicly viewable. I hope to have some more photos soon... |
| dscew |
posted 05-03-2011 04:34 PM ET (US)
Looks great now. Finished product should be a nice shelter. Thanks for the links. |
| home Aside |
posted 05-04-2011 06:26 AM ET (US)
Looks good Dave, can't wait to see it in person. what color canvas did you decide on? Pat |
| Buckda |
posted 05-04-2011 08:19 AM ET (US)
The color is Sunbrella "Toast". The only bit of canvas that will clash is the console cover which is currently Pacific Blue, but alas, I'm not congress, so I can't just spend beyond my budget because I want to. I'm being bad enough already... |
| fno |
posted 05-04-2011 09:16 AM ET (US)
Looks like it's gonna be a nice setup. I would have made the flying top longer to the back, but then again I boat mostly in sunny drunken Florida. I especially like your idea for a hard top on that boat, Make sure it is wide enough to make the sides neat to the gunnels. Too many boatmakers down South supply a T-Top or hard top that is too narrow and sometimes too short front to back. |
| Buckda |
posted 07-05-2011 10:52 PM ET (US)
Well, the boat has been back on my property for more than a month now, the problem is that life has intervened, and I'm not able to use it for the moment... ...but we did make good progress. I had the canvas maker do a couple of extra projects as well, but ended up having her hold off on the front window in the shelter itself, since I couldn't be there when she was working on it to approve last minute design changes. We arranged at an agreed upon discount and I had her finish the project and close the invoice for now. When I have more time and get a chance, she'll add a window. The end result looks pretty close to my drawing, and I have gunwale covers and a hatch cover that were thrown in the deal due to them basically using overrun material from the larger project. Note: the boat is currently in a somewhat torn-down state - the rubrail is off and there are lots of other projects underway, but she's coming along... Also note: the canvasmaker didn't install the small cleat that will tension the shelter canvas as she didn't want to drill into my brand new teak gunwale caps without my being present. For this, I thank her, but you'll notice that the canvas isn't as taught in the photos as it will be once I install this important bit of hardware. If you remember, here was the final design: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/ 1983%20Outrage%2025%20Cuddy%20Restoration/Canvas%20Project/ CanvasConcept4toast.jpg Here's what I got: Here are the gunwale covers *minus the rubrail*: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/ 1983%20Outrage%2025%20Cuddy%20Restoration/Canvas%20Project/DDC044.jpg |
| home Aside |
posted 07-06-2011 12:21 AM ET (US)
Dave, the canvas looks great, I like the gunwhale covers & hatch covers too. How do you secure the hatch cover, velco or snaps? Pat |
| andygere |
posted 07-06-2011 02:49 AM ET (US)
Nice job on the canvas design and fab. Looks like it will make that Outrage a serious all-weather boat. Is the missing window going to go in the front of the dodger to add visibility? |
| Buckda |
posted 07-08-2011 09:08 PM ET (US)
Pat - The prev. owner had a hatch cover with four snaps in the corners, she made the cover to match those existing snap studs. Andy - Dave |
| Buckda |
posted 07-10-2011 03:59 PM ET (US)
One of the less-visible mods to this canvas vs. the Mills system is the juncture at which the forward shelter and the windshield attach. On my 18, this was accomplished by using a zipper at the bottom of the windshield and trailing edge of the top of the shelter. Down the sides, Mills used lift dots and then a turnbuckle at the bottom. The system is easy to connect and works well under most wet conditions....except when underway at speed or into a driving rain. The problem is that the wind "bows" the canvas a bit between the lift dots, allowing cold air and rain water (streaming off the side of the shelter) into the cockpit. Think about when you drive your car in heavy rain...on the passenger window near the windshield, there is often a streamlet of water that is working it's way up your window and along the top edge. The same thing is happening on the side of the shelter, only when it gets to the edge of the windshield, it has access to go into the boat, riding on the wind. It's not a big problem, but it is a nuisance - especially on the coldest of days and when you have family/passengers who are from the South and have become cold temperature averse. Anyway, we added a rubber padding material that makes this joint water tight except under the most extreme circumstances. I hope to have some detail photos of this modification to add to this thread in the future. |
| Buckda |
posted 07-10-2011 04:20 PM ET (US)
Several other notes: I ended up going with a different canvas shop than I had originally engaged with because that shop basically got busy and he ignored me. I may be a P.I.T.A. customer but I was concerned about getting the design right, and he didn't seem to want or value my input. The person who upholstered my cushions is the person who ended up with the contract for the canvas. She has extensive experience as well, but had never done something as "sailing oriented" as this was. (Turns out I learned a lot about the differences between the powerboat support communities vs. the sailboat support communities as well). Anyway, also mentioned in this thread was the idea to use quick disconnect fittings on the bows. The flying top is mounted to a very short track and the support arm in the rear is attached to the gunwale using a quick disconnect fitting. It folds forward and stows at the bow. I had to make a compromise with the forward shelter. The framework is mounted with quick disconnect fittings for easy and quick removal. It can stow forward as well, but when stowed forward, it interferes with the hatch. I also do not currently have a boot for it. The compromise was made after I reflected on how I use my canvas. Generally speaking, when "cruising" with my canvas, the shelter is set and *never* goes down. That's what I did with my 18 - it didn't matter what the weather was, I kept the shelter up when cruising. When fishing, I brought my rain gear and didn't use the shelter much anyway...just as a very late or early season comfort item. So I made the compromise with this boat/canvas. I may end up hating it, but my money (already) is on the bet that it will be just fine. I'll be adding a boot for this in the next round of Canvas mods/projects - it just wasn't in the budget this year. |
| Buckda |
posted 07-10-2011 04:25 PM ET (US)
Sorry - for clarification - the shelter bows interfere with the forward hatch when stowed forward, not the hatch to enter the cuddy....so they can be put forward in a pinch. |
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