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Author Topic:   Why Remove a Whaler Drive
L H G posted 01-31-2011 03:59 PM ET (US)   Profile for L H G  
[In reference to an offer to sell a Whaler Drive just removed from a Boston Whaler 25-foot boat, L H G posted the following inquiry;]

I wonder why they took it off?

andygere posted 01-31-2011 04:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Since the original Whaler Drive boats simply had built up transoms after the notched transom hull came out of the mold, I don't see any reason why a notched transom boat couldn't be modified in the same way. It would take some work by an individual or shop experienced in fiberglass fabrication but it could be done.

As to the question on why it's being removed, I can only surmise that a different transom bracket will replace it. Perhaps the re-power of the donor boat is going to be with a pair of massive 4-stroke outboards, and the WhalerDrive does not provide enough clearance for the motor cowls so the lower units can tilt clear of the water.

themclos posted 01-31-2011 05:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for themclos  Send Email to themclos     
I know where there is a Revenge 25 Sea Drive waiting for new engines. I have thought about looking at this boat and moving my OptiMax 225-HP from my Outrage 22 Cuddy and then selling the Outrage.

Maybe I should go see the Revenge to see the shape it is in.

Anybody want to ball park the cost of filling in the transom and installing the Whaler Drive?

Please don't tell me to do it myself, I have enough on my plate. I am in New Jersey, so figure the costs would be higher than in Florida.

I know of one shop in Southern New Jersey that has removed a Sea Drive from a Whaler, repaired the transom and installed an Armstrong bracket.

Dan

RLwhaler posted 02-02-2011 01:36 AM ET (US)     Profile for RLwhaler  Send Email to RLwhaler     
Dan,the last time Orlando's Fiberglass here in Houston quoted me was close to $15,000 for everything, and that was eight years ago. Don't forget to add replacement of cables and all too! You're three feet extra with a [Whaler Drive].

RL

Newtauk1 posted 02-02-2011 05:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for Newtauk1  Send Email to Newtauk1     
Would the Whaler drive work on this?
jimh posted 02-02-2011 09:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If a boat were fitted with a drive bracket that did not contain a buoyancy box as the Whaler Drive does, the weight of the engines will have a very significant effect on the static trim. You can see this in L H G's boat WHALE LURE, which sits with a very noticeable bow-high static trim from the weight of the engines on a drive bracket without a buoyancy box. And WHALE LURE has relatively small and light engines. With twin four-cycle monster engines, it would seem like a buoyancy box would be mandatory to maintain static trim.

I have seen some law enforcement or municipal Boston Whaler boats with Whaler Drives and modern, heavy twin engines where, even with the buoyancy box boost of the Whaler Drive, the freeboard at the stern is noticeably reduced.

themclos posted 02-02-2011 10:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for themclos  Send Email to themclos     
Newtauk,

Yes, it would.

Dan

Jeff posted 02-02-2011 10:41 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
The only two times I have seen a WhalerDrive bracket removed for sale were instances where the rest of the hull sustained damage from an impact and from a storm.
Tohsgib posted 02-02-2011 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Jim is partially correct in that most or all brackets offer flotation via air pockets inside. I can not see a Whaler drive offering much more flotation than say an Armstrong due to the weight of the unit itself. Air displaces water just as well as foam does. When my bud put his armstrong on his boat with twin 115 Suzuki 4 strokes it actually raised the waterline about 1/2" from them being on the transom which is awesome considering they are now hanging 3 feet astern. He also filled in the transom which added weight so hence this post.
Buckda posted 02-02-2011 11:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
I'm with Jeff - my guess is that these are parts from boats that are being chopped, for whatever reason.

We're just now getting to the point where the old Whaler hulls in bad shape will be cannibalized to meet restoration demand for the models in better condition....and there will be a market for it. Not sure about the market for the WhalerDrive - but there's certainly a market for consoles, railings, light fixtures and other fittings.

These OE replacement parts will only increase in value over time, as I don't see the "legend" followers losing enthusiasm for these boats.

Dave

L H G posted 02-02-2011 01:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for L H G    
That Revenge did not look like it was headed to the chopping block.
Binkster posted 02-02-2011 02:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
How can you tell, only the stern of the boat is visible in the pic on Craigslist.
Buckda posted 02-02-2011 02:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Ok. Add 'or heavy modification' to the statement above.

Heck, there are guys here who have removed the cuddy on their Outrage Cuddy boats. That seems an equally large modification to a boat that is intended to still see use.

Tohsgib posted 02-02-2011 03:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Personally from what I have read here, many do not "love" their WD's. The guy might want to remove it and repower with smaller engines on a bracket which would not quite work with the WD. What I mean is a 22 Revenge WD with twin 115's would be kinda sluggish, on a normal hull it would fly. With todays gas it might make sense to go from 175's to 115's if you get close to the same performance minus the WD.
Peter posted 02-02-2011 06:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Why on Earth would anybody go to the trouble and expense to remove a Whaler Drive so they could add an Armstrong bracket and repower with lesser HP motors? The difference in average hourly fuel consumption (ICOMIA Duty Cycle) between modern 115s and 175s is barely 1 GPH. So for twins that's 2 GPH -- not enough to drive a rationally thinking person to make such a change.

andygere posted 02-02-2011 07:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
I still think the guy wanted to repower with V6 4-strokes, and the motor cowls were too tall to work with the WhalerDrive. Since the boat already has a solid transom, it's more or less a bolt-on deal to install a custom setback bracket that can handle the taller outboards. Perhaps the owner wanted to go with 30" shafts, which would require additional changes in geometry.
Mike Kub posted 02-02-2011 09:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Kub  Send Email to Mike Kub     
There is a 24' outrage 1994 model with twin 2003 140 suzukis hanging off of a what appeared to be a whaler drive but was actually another behind transom motor mount that the fellow said was made in Florida. This boat is in super shape, would very likely buy if this mount could be removed and the original tramsom used. Does anyone know if this can be done without screwing up the original transom? Thanks.
Jeff posted 02-02-2011 09:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Instead of guessing, bickering and speculating anyone can answer this riddle by calling the guy selling the WhalerDrive.

From the ad:
Craig 604 219-1469

Tom W Clark posted 02-02-2011 09:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Jeff -- No, no! That would spoil all the fun.

I guarantee you there is a very significant chance that this thread will drag on for quite a while and that Larry will somehow spin so it that Mercury brand outboards are superior to all others ;-)

andygere posted 02-02-2011 11:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Wrong thread Tom. This one is Armstrong superior to WhalerDrive...but my hunch is that's why the thing is for sale : )
Tohsgib posted 02-03-2011 11:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
The owner is putting a diesel hybrid inboard in the rig and cruise it to Antartica.
WhalerAce posted 02-03-2011 02:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for WhalerAce  Send Email to WhalerAce     
Just for the record, I've had TWO Whalers with the Whaler Drive(Outrage-22 and Temptation-2500). I love them! But then again, I don't firewall the throttles, either.

--- WhalerAce

contender posted 02-03-2011 04:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
To each his own....
martyn1075 posted 02-04-2011 10:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
[The Whaler Drive has been removed from the boat in question] because the owner said it was removed to replace with their own custom bracket to accompany a single outboard motor. The Whaler Drive is in good condition with minor spider cracks in gelcoat where the existing swim grid was. I believe andygere was most correct. Sorry, there is no prize however.
Peter posted 02-05-2011 07:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I also think Andy got it right. The 22/25 Whaler Drive only provides a two-foot set back and some of today's large motors probably can't be tilted up fully without the cowl smacking into the top of the transom. The owner is probably going to three feet of set back which should provide tilting clearance for most, if not all, motors.
jimh posted 02-05-2011 08:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
What is a "swim grid"? I have a Whaler Drive. I have never heard this term before.
Tom W Clark posted 02-05-2011 11:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I suspect the boat in question is going to get a 250 HP outboard. Owning a Revenge 25 Walk Through myself, I have concluded that 250 HP is the ideal amount of power for this boat.

Adding a Whaler Drive to a Whaler is not like adding a set back bracket; it essentially creates a larger boat and a larger boat requires more power to achieve the same level of performance.

A 25 foot Whaler with a Whaler Drive needs 350 or even 400 HP to perform like a notched transom 25 with only 300 HP.

By removing the Whaler Drive, enough weight and drag will eliminated that a much more fuel efficient, quieter, less complicated and smaller motor can be used.

martyn1075 posted 02-05-2011 01:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Swim grid sounds funny to me as well, but I think the seller was referring to a swim ladder.
contender posted 02-05-2011 07:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
Peter is correct, with the new tall/taller engines you need a 30 inch set back/dive platform, so the engine cowling does not hit the rear of the boat/transom...
cc378 posted 02-06-2011 03:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for cc378    
I have a WhalerDrive on an Outrage 20 with a Honda 200. The static trim is little bit stern heavy but the boat performs very well. I have two batteries that I have been thinking about moving forward under the console. I love the extra room that the WhalerDrive creates.....
Tohsgib posted 02-07-2011 10:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Wow Tom when I said the said the same thing I got this from Peter: "Why on Earth would anybody go to the trouble and expense to remove a Whaler Drive so they could add an Armstrong bracket and repower with lesser HP motors? The difference in average hourly fuel consumption (ICOMIA Duty Cycle) between modern 115s and 175s is barely 1 GPH. So for twins that's 2 GPH -- not enough to drive a rationally thinking person to make such a change."

What he does not get is that the cost between twin 115's and 175's is about $8-9k.

Tohsgib posted 02-07-2011 10:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
PS...The difference between twin 200's and a single 250-300hp would be even greater not to mention the weight savings.
Buckda posted 02-07-2011 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Not to be completely contradictory, but Tom, I wonder why you think 250 HP would be ideal for the 25' hull.

I have 260 HP on mine, and I think its performance is a little dull.

Perhaps I need to consider different propellers.

...perhaps this would be an interesting discussion on another thread.

Tom W Clark posted 02-07-2011 10:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I never understood why Whaler offered the Whaler Drive on the 20 foot models. It essentially made a 20' into a 22',

But the (1986-1989) 20' hull is nothing but a shortened 22' hull.

Tom W Clark posted 02-07-2011 11:04 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Dave -- Yes another thread, but two things to think about in the mean time:

- My statement should have been qualified by "...if fuel economy and a smooth ride is important to you. Obviously, if top speed is the goal, more power is always better."

- Your boat has some set-up problems that are diminishing its performance quite a bit, namely 5 inches too much shaft length on the motors, and propellers that are less than optimal.

Peter posted 02-09-2011 07:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
"What he does not get is that the cost between twin 115's and 175's is about $8-9k."

Then add back in the cost of the bracket and labor and your gap shrinks. Plus now you've changed the handling dynamics of the boat with the hope that you get it all right. No rational person would go through all of that just to make the boat easier to push so they can then put lesser HP motors on the boat. This guy wants probably wants to go from twins to large single assuming that there will be significant fuel savings running a single instead of twins (that is often an incorrect assumption with today's modern fuel efficient motors).

I suspect that the reason that they did this is exacly as how Andy pegged it. They are repowering to a single motor which means it has to be a BIG ONE to push that boat and the two feet of setback on the Whaler Drive causes the cowl of the BIG ONE to interfere with the transom when it is tilted up. Three feet of setback is enough for the cowl of a BIG ONE to clear the transom.

One advantage, however, of going to the Armstrong bracket is that you can now install trim tabs on the boat transom, something that couldn't be done easily with the 20/22/25 Whaler Drive.

Tohsgib posted 02-09-2011 11:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Well on that note you can put a single on a Whaler drive and I see what you mean about clearance because that center hump is 5" taller...BUT....why go through all that BS just because part of your lower unit sits in the water. I/O's sit in the water constantly. Slap a little bottom paint on it and call it a day, makes more sense than ripping off a Whaler drive. In 15 years the lower is pitted from corrosion you buy a new from SEI for $795 which is about 40% of an Armstrong bracket cost.
CDRevenge posted 02-09-2011 05:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for CDRevenge  Send Email to CDRevenge     
Being the actual owner I can tell you exactly why, 2 reasons, A Yamaha 250hp 4 stroke, and trim tabs.
CDRevenge posted 02-09-2011 05:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for CDRevenge  Send Email to CDRevenge     
replies finally worked.

Yes a big single with a 30" shaft will not fit the current whale drive, plus we have to add trim tabs and a few additional mods to the swim grid. The bracket will be 30" back and set very high up teh transom.

We have teh abilities to fab our own pod, so that is exactly what we are going to do, 3/4" alum plate adn 1/2 alum body for the pod itself.

I will provide pictures when I can.
Craig

Buckda posted 02-09-2011 05:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
There you go.
Tohsgib posted 02-09-2011 05:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
It was more fun before he piped in...especially the diesel mod I thought of. Maybe one of those diesel "pods" you bolt on like a Whaler drive?
andygere posted 02-09-2011 06:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
What do I win?
Tom W Clark posted 02-09-2011 06:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Single 250 HP motor, classic 25 foot Whaler, perfect marriage, as I've been saying ;-)

I look forward to hearing how it performs.

Peter posted 02-10-2011 08:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Nick -- You could put a single on that Whaler Drive (like Jim has on his) but you really wouldn't want to do that on a Revenge 25 WD with an LOA of nearly 27 feet. That's just too big of a boat to make good use of a single outboard. With single propeller and that length, the boat would have miserable slow speed, close quarters handling and it probably wouldn't be all that great underway on plane either with such a small amount of propeller surface area to lift the stern. The boat would still need about 350 HP to be be a good performer and the only two motors that are at that level are the Yamaha 350 V8 or the Verado 350 SCI. With both of those motors being of gigantic proportions, the cowling interference problem is even worse than it is with the shorter V6 4-strokes.

With regard to I/O's its not just the corrosion, its also marine growth accumulation that make I/O's unattractive for boats kept in salt water. You can't bottom paint the inside of the water intakes and you'd be amazed at how much life grows inside with that in the water 24/7.

Tohsgib posted 02-10-2011 11:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Put a SeaDrive on her!
Binkster posted 02-10-2011 11:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
I think the biggest SeaDrive was a V4 140hp. I don`t think I ever saw a SeaDrive V6.
Tom W Clark posted 02-10-2011 11:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
The biggest SeaDrive was 235 HP. In fact, the vast majority of SeaDrives were V-6 because it was the high-horsepower V-6 outboard used on larger and larger boats that inspired its development. The V-4 SeaDrive was an afterthought.
Tohsgib posted 02-10-2011 03:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tohsgib  Send Email to Tohsgib     
Ditto...they did not actually post hp on them, just the engine size so you kinda had to know what engine you bought.
CDRevenge posted 02-10-2011 05:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for CDRevenge  Send Email to CDRevenge     
So in a couple of years when we can get our hands on a good used Yamaha 350, the 3/4-inch plate we used for this pod should be fine then. Unless of course we can't make our target cruise speed of 28- to 32-MPH with reasonable fuel consumption. If not, [something] [is] the Yamaha 350-HP or a Suzuki 300hp, considering the 200-lbs weight difference. They should perform the same.

Conversely, saddling the [vulgar expression deleted] end with a pair of 250-HP engines, while fun, would be 1,200-lbs plus another 12- to 15-GPH fuel cost. At that point I would sell the Whaler and buy a 31 Fountain fishing boat that could handle twins, and get a second job to pay for fuel.

The cost to ship [a Whaler Drive] from here to the east coast is $225.

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