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  1988 MONTAUK Bow Locker Hatch

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Author Topic:   1988 MONTAUK Bow Locker Hatch
sail16 posted 01-24-2012 08:39 AM ET (US)   Profile for sail16   Send Email to sail16  
I am restoring the wooden bow locker hatch on a 1988 Montauk and undoing a botched repair by the prior owner. The hatch looks like this one. As part of this effort, I will be replacing the aft edge and lateral piece of the hatch. Is the best practice to screw that piece onto the rest of the hatch or to glue and screw it?
Blackduck posted 01-24-2012 09:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Blackduck  Send Email to Blackduck     
Just screws, you want the edge piece to be able to move with climate changes.
DVollrath posted 01-24-2012 09:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for DVollrath  Send Email to DVollrath     
Sail16--I think fastneing with screws it is all you want. The larger pieces of the cover want to be able to expand and contract as their moisture content varies, and by gluing you'll constrain that. Probably not a big deal since the boards are not that wide, but the glue joint would not add much strength at any rate as one face is end grain.--Dennis
Jessielove posted 01-24-2012 04:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jessielove  Send Email to Jessielove     
Blackduck-- [you are] right about the movement, but the rearward piece will remain fairly stable along its length. It's the middle field pieces that will move comparatively much more across the grain in relation to the rearward edge board.

If the field pieces are constructed to provide sideways expansion and contraction (for instand a tongue and groove or lapped joint along the edges) then glue can be strategically used. At the front (bow) edge where the piece holds the hinges, the outside (port and starboard)side boards are trimmed on an angle to give a very small connection point to the board with the hinge. Because this is such a narrow section of wood, expansion and contraction across the grain will be minimal and you can glue this area with good polyurethane glue like Gorilla Glue (make sure to follow the label directions exactly in cleaning, preparing, and applying the glue).

This same concept can be applied to the wider rear (stern) ends if you realize that only a small single area should be glued (no more than one inch). If you were to glue the rearward outside corners of the two side boards, then you would fix the outside corners and allow the boards to expand inwards. This is not a problem as long as the field boards have room to move in relation to each other. If fixing the outside corners with polyurethane glue make sure the screw holes are slightly elongated left to right on the inside edge of the rearward piece. This will reduce sideward shear forces cause by an inflexible screw while maintaining adequate tension between the pieces. Your field pieces will move naturally and you will prevent your field wood from splitting. To create this elongated space, insert your drill bit into the screw hole from the backside and tilt your drill from side to side to create a narrow "v" shape slot. Be very careful you elongate the back side and not the front side. A piece of masking tape wrapped around the bit equal to slightly less than the depth of the hole will help you from extending the bit completely through the wood and damaging the front visible edge (where the screw head sits).

I have repaired numerous antiques with similar cross-grain construction like this with excellent results. It is important to understand that all of the mating joint does not have to be free to move. In this situation where the field is constructed of multiple boards, there can be one or more permanently fixed (glued) points.

If you would like, I could have one of my students draw this out on AutoCAD for you and post a link to it so you could see in a picture what I described above. I would need some detailed measurements sent to my e-mail though.


Binkster posted 01-24-2012 07:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster    
I like the way the bow line is coiled best of all.

I would throw a couple of cleats under the boards, glue and screw the whole thing together, and its good for life. I would also put ten coats of varnish on it and use mahogany instead of teak.
A boat carpenter told me many years ago (when boats were built from wood) that the simple way is always the best way.

Jessielove posted 01-25-2012 04:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jessielove  Send Email to Jessielove     
Binkster,

For some people adding a cleat is a simple solution. If you’re the kind of person who looks at this hatch, and you have a favorable response, then, yes, you could add a cleat to the underside and you will be happy.

However, if you're the kind of person who notices some problems with the hatch in the picture, then a more elaborate solution will be necessary to make you feel satisfied with your hatch repair. When I look at the hatch I see that the port and starboard outside boards are made from poor quality flat-sawn wood and have cupped along the rearward edge where the acute angle does not sit flush with the rearmost trim piece. It is very easy to notice this, look at the lower left and right corners of the hatch, there are very apparent shadow lines present caused by the misalignment between the boards. This happens because the boards used to construct this hatch are lesser quality flat-sawn boards and should not have been chosen by the manufacturer for this wide-board application. The manufacturer did not take the time to sort their lumber to find the rift and quarter-sawn board among their stock that these boards should have been constructed of. (The 2nd and 5th boards are rift/quarter sawn).

All flat sawn boards will distort in a circular manner as they expand and contract. Had the manufacturer used rift or quarter sawn wood here, the cupping effect would be minimal and much less noticeable. Adding a cleat will not correct existing misalignment problems nor will it prevent future misalignment. Building layers of high gloss coating will only look good for a short time; it will eventually fail along the seams and joints and need attention in the future.

So, I contend, if you’re the kind of person who notices these kinds of problems and you think to yourself “I want something better” then the process I described in my post above will minimize the resulting negative effects giving you a more stable platform to build a high gloss varnish (if that is your goal). Paying attention to details like this is what separates the average trailer queen from a boat like one of Larry’s “museum pieces”. If you want your hatch to look like your dining room coffee table, I think it’s the best solution short of building a new hatch using exclusively rift/quarter sawn or laminated and veneered material.

Only you can decide what you will be happy with.

Binkster posted 01-25-2012 07:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster    
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wouldn't repair that hatch at all. I would just build a new one using a simpler construction method, and varnished Sapele mahogany boards. I consider the boats that I have restored over the last 40 or so years and my 13 footer that I modified and restored in '08, as much of a museum piece as Larry's boats. Pics of that boat have been posted here, but I don't recall seeing any pics of boats or in particularly Whalers that you have restored. Pictures of furniture don't count.
As a teacher of (carpentry?) you seem to know the theory, lets see some pictures.

BTW the only thing that I am happy with when it comes to building things, homes or boats, is perfection.

contender posted 01-25-2012 10:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
Bink is correct screw and glue, varnish, Why do you want problems down the road...
Blackduck posted 01-25-2012 11:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Blackduck  Send Email to Blackduck     
I think the person who asked the question only wanted to know how to attach a new "breadboard end" BW simply screwed the 1" piece onto the ends of the planks, no glue. The two pieces on the bottom that hold the planks together were both screw and glued. Many covers have lasted 30 years using this simple construction methods, KISS (keep it simple, stupid)
Binkster posted 01-25-2012 12:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster    
Boston whaler was not above making mistakes. After 1975 they simplified the construction of the 13 footer side console. They used butt joints instead of mortising the parts together. I guess they did the same thing with the Montauk hatch covers. Why continue poor construction methods when making restoration parts. They all look the same when they are put together, so why not do it right. Its hard to believe that those little breadboard ends and some screws were all that held that hatch cover together.
Who has an original one that has never been reworked? The one in the picture in not an original but it obviously is a copy and its falling apart.
Blackduck posted 01-25-2012 03:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Blackduck  Send Email to Blackduck     
The two 1" x 3" boards on the bottom are what hold the piece together. Using any kind of lap, or tongue and grove joinery will encourage rot, as the water will not drain. The breadboard ends are not the major structural component of the piece, they are secondary and decorative.
Jessielove posted 01-25-2012 05:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jessielove  Send Email to Jessielove     
Binkster, I’d respond to you directly, but you don’t provide an e-mail in your profile so I will respond here.

You wrote in your first post "I would throw a couple of cleats under the boards, glue and screw the whole thing together..." Then, after I commented on your post you wrote in your second post "I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wouldn't repair that hatch at all. I would just build a new one using a simpler construction method..." Maybe I am missing something here, but based upon what you actually wrote there seems to be an inconsistency from post to post. I'm sure you can understand why I could be confusion. Anyway, I am glad we are at least on the same page about appreciating high quality work.

You continued to write "I consider the boats that I have restored over the last 40 or so years and my 13 footer that I modified and restored in '08, as much of a museum piece as Larry's boats. Pics of that boat have been posted here..." I'll accept your assertion wholeheartedly as I was not a member of CW in '08.

Then you wrote "...but I don't recall seeing any pics of boats or in particularly Whalers that you have restored. Pictures of furniture don't count." I would argue that the skill required to reproduce fine antique casework far exceeds any skill needed to reproduce any production woodwork from the Boston Whaler factory.

Lastly you wrote "As a teacher of (carpentry?) you seem to know the theory, lets see some pictures." I am not a teacher of carpentry. I am, among other things, classically-trained in cabinetmaking. I would be happy to send you a couple sample photos of my work. Given you do not list an e-mail in your profile I propose you send me an e-mail to my posted address and I will respond to your e-mail with the photos you request.

Binkster posted 01-25-2012 10:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster    
Hmmm, no offence, and not trying to downplay your cabinetmaking skills, but restoring boats boats requires a lot more skill with different trades than just woodworking. Fiberglass work is a skill in itself. And then painting or gelcoating, another skill. And then mechanical work too, to bring it all together and get it running. Also you have no detailed plan to work from, its a seat of the pants thing, and if you aren't able to visualize the finished product in your mind you are doomed from the start.
Get yourself a Whaler project and see what you can do with it, its alot of fun too.

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